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Author Topic: USBC Rule 118b  (Read 13161 times)

MAJM

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USBC Rule 118b
« on: October 16, 2007, 03:22:51 AM »
We had a situation in league last night where a right handed person on the last shot of the night got up and threw his ball with two hands. Now his primary hand (right) was in the ball, however, he kept this left hand on the ball the entire time where normally he doesn't. His team had the game won by 60+ pins and he was 20 pins over his average before the final shot. The shot was thrown down the middle of the lane but 3/4 of the way down it hooked into the gutter. Is this a violation of this rule (or another one).

Note: The other team complained that the shot was intentionally thrown in the gutter. It was not because it was on the lane 3/4 of the way down. They then complained that it was a change in hands and/or delivery.

I couldn't find anything in the rules in which a change from one hand to two is illegal. Now under 118b #4 has a clause for Youth bowling so I assume that doesn't apply for adult leagues.
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shelley

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Re: USBC Rule 118b
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2007, 02:37:15 PM »
quote:
Not really. We had a problem last year where another guy, high average bowler, was unhappy week after week that his team had to give up so many pins because of handicap that he threw the ball down the gutter, starting from the foul line, 7 straight frames.


Did you give him his walking papers?  He'd be off my team if he did that.

SH

rmarth1983

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Re: USBC Rule 118b
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2007, 03:05:46 PM »
wow, some of you take this game way too seriously. This had absolutely no impact on the final outcome of the game. If he does this frequently, thats one thing, but in this case, just tell him not to screw around anymore and be done with it.

And we wonder why league bowling membership is on the decline...

MAJM

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Re: USBC Rule 118b
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2007, 03:16:16 PM »
quote:
Did you give him his walking papers?  He'd be off my team if he did that.


The guy last year wasn't/isn't on my team. If the guy isn't the high average in the league he's always in the top 5. There was an official protest filed and when they went to him and asked him why he did what he did, he stated that he was going through personal problems. All the team captains felt sorry for him so they slapped him on the hand said don't do it again and forced him to reestablish an average. Literally 3 weeks later he bowled a 300 AND 800 in the league.

When the decision came down I was PISSED!! I told everyone that listened I don't care if the guy had/has personal problems or not, 7 straight gutter balls is grounds to be kicked out and card pulled. It was a losing battle because (I don't know how many of you are apart of this) he is apart of the "good ole boys" in the house and they were never going to do anything.
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River700

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Re: USBC Rule 118b
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2007, 03:19:21 PM »
There is a guy that I have seen who bowled on a summer league, he throws a back up ball on every shot, even for spares, and nothing has been said to him that I know of. I have seen some people throw two handed in winter league  Iam currently bowling in, I even did the two handed thing, but accidently threw it to clsoe to the right side gutter, and it went in. But, I agree as long as a bowler has his dominate hand releasing theb all, it doesn't matter if he uses two hands or not.
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nospareball

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Re: USBC Rule 118b
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2007, 03:40:41 PM »
quote:
I disagree. Being talented enough to do that probably isn't affecting a lot of folks. It does more harm in terms of sandbagging than it benefits the relatively few bowlers who are competitive with both hands. No reason to make sandbagging easier. I know it's an uphill battle that will never be won but that's no reason not to fight.


The rare time I have seen someone break this rule about changing hands it has been to benefit his team.  I've seen guys who have been flagging the 10pin all night get up and pick it up left handed, guys who can't hit the pocket from the right side get frustrated and strike from the left.  Obviously we cried foul in both situations, and agreed to let them off with a warning.  It's a mens league, but we all still like to have fun so we're not going to forfeit a guys whole night because of one frame of frustration.

I guess my point is, if someone wanted to bag and be sly about it, changing hands wouldn't be the way to do it.  Intentionally missing single pin spares, or intentionally missing your mark wide or in can all be disguised as having a bad night.  Dropping it in the gutter or looking like a fool throwing lefty off the wrong foot are automatic black flags.

But I'll still contend that if changing hands can benefit you, then why not do it.
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shelley

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Re: USBC Rule 118b
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2007, 03:51:43 PM »
quote:
But I'll still contend that if changing hands can benefit you, then why not do it.


I don't bowl with my left hand.  With a lot of work, I could probably work my way up to a 120 average.  If the USBC didn't care what hand you used, I could take that 120 average to tournaments, tell the TD to give me handicap based on my league average of 120 for 90 games, bowl with my right hand, and there's nothing in the rulebook that would stop me.  Clearly, that would benefit me.  At a tournament with, say, 90% of 210 handicap, I'd get 81 pins.  I average around 180 with my right hand.  With that handicap I'd shoot 260, even if I only bowl my average.  If the "scratch" bowlers average 200-220, I've got them beat by 40 pins.  Not because handicap sucks.  I bowl my average, they bowl theirs, they'll win most of the time in a legitimate handicap competition.  I bowl my average, or even 20 pins under it, and they bowl well, I'm going to beat them almost every time.

Not fair.  Not in the spirit of honest competition.  Clearly that benefits me, I walk home with a fat wallet after cleaning up in brackets, side pots, and the actual tournament standings.

No, having "handedness" attached to the average is the right way to go.  I won't say there aren't legitimate reasons for allowing bowlers to switch hands.  But it creates more problems than it solves.

SH

mrbowlingnut

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Re: USBC Rule 118b
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2007, 03:52:46 PM »
I practice my two handed delivery on fill shots if my team has already lost or winning by a big margin, it is not illegal and i always get laughs when i do this. Sometimes i gutter it by 40 feet other times i take the 1 or 2 board and get it recover and hit the pocket. I honestly do this for fun and have never had anyone whine about the gutters or strikes, last year in a roll off after being down 150 pins in a game and half i rolled this way the last 15 frames.

I had no complaints then since I was all over the place and we were getting killed by the other team, i shot around 130 and 150 something doing this. It was done in fun and the other teams just watch and laugh with me, i am sure there are whiners that think it is wrong to do this.

Have fun and enjoy life why make a big deal over nothing really

sheppy335

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Re: USBC Rule 118b
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2007, 07:38:50 AM »
I dont think he borke the rules, i do think ethically he made a bad choice and will look like a bagger.
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BBock727

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Re: USBC Rule 118b
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2007, 12:21:46 PM »
I do not see the problem with this since he had his right hand in ball for both shots.  I think this deviation of approach is totally garbage.  I guess the rule can be against someone switching from cranker to tweener midgame.  What if I change my amount of steps in my approach, is that a deviation?  I think is just stupid to have someone forfeit a game that they had dominated.  I am the anchor bowler in most of my leagues and you dont know how many times that were are up by a lot that i put my left hand in my ball, bowl it w/ both my left and right hand to cover the whole lane to strike, just for fun (im a lefty).  No one ever complains.

Also, sandbagging is just the nature of the beast in handicap leagues.  If you don't enjoy it then join a scratch league and try to compete.  Theres two thoughts on this, its kind of damned if you do and damned if you dont.  Ill give you a recent scenario:   In a 3 person handicap league a few wks ago, my team bowled a high scratch score, cant remember exactly, but it was a little over an 800.  With handicap it turned out to be a 878.  The other team we bowled had a very bad game and threw a 500 or so scratch and a <578 game.  So we beat the other team by over 300 pins.  After the game they were "complaining" that we poured it on them after we had clearly won and clearly won wood (was the 3rd game of the series).  I believe I threw a 278 that game, if I threw all balls in the gutter or at least missed the headpin on my tenth frame and missed marking, they would have complained that i was sandbagging.  Its really a damned if you do and a damned if you dont.  

I have now decided to play the way I WANT to play and to not care what anyone else thinks.  In the handicap league, if my avg is getting over a 210 and it looks like we are clearly going to dominate, i change my line and try to throw my ball differently (ie if i start on 3rd arrow from the right and swing it to the 6board on the left all game, ill now stand between the 1st and 2nd arrow on the right and swing it to the 12-15 board.  It usually takes me a while to adjust, lowering my score, but it also makes me a better bowler because it helps my accuracy and overall ability to adjust if an adjustment is really needed.  

I hate when people try to use the rules against someone who is clearly just a better bowler.  Why try to edge out a win and disqualify a whole team because of 1 bowler holds the ball with 2 hands.  Its cowardly and poor sportsmanship.  If your not good enough to win you should spend your time bowling more games rather than researching the rule book and bothering your league president.   This is just my opinion.

JoCo

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Re: USBC Rule 118b
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2007, 01:19:23 AM »
I would think this is like me going up to bowl and throwing it between my legs with my normal hand. which is against the rules.

rexb300

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Re: USBC Rule 118b
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2007, 06:53:02 AM »
I had a problem last season like this.

I called USBC about this rule is unclear.
rule 118b.
any change in delivery is a violation and
cause a forfeit.
in new rule book page 69 118b/2 I had a little
to do with that because the old rule was unclear.
I challenged the rule I had a bowler on my team
threw at a split between his legs with right hand
I said so USBC sais  not normal delivery that would be
sandbagging average down like he had a chance to
pick up a 4-6 leave.

the rule said bowl with right hand only thats
what he did and also he can pick a spare doing
it not all the time.

USBC said give a warning 1st time then forfeit
is does it again. so we cleared that up
no clowning around but
I see bowlers get mad then throw the ball pass
the arrows at a split or ?
USBC said as long as do it the same then its ok.

hopes this helps.

pros are different there was a 2 handed bowler
on TV 3 years ago and used 1 hand a spares.

have fun and good bowling

RB



jd1319

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Re: USBC Rule 118b
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2007, 07:33:01 AM »
If a change from the normal deliver is illegal, what about bowlers with both an A and B game.  If a down and in bowler switches to a crank shot on a particular night, would that technically be illegal?

Jorge300

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Re: USBC Rule 118b
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2007, 07:45:33 AM »
I think someone is blowing this way out of proportion. First of all, there are many ways to change your normal delivery that are, and should be legal. For example, a few years ago I was bowling in a trio league. One night, for whatever reason, the lanes were exceedingly oily (later found out the machine broke and dumped about 5x the amount of oil they wanted on the lanes), my teammate who normally uses a 4 step approach, began using a 1 step approach to reduce his ball speed. Obviously a large change from his "normal" delivery. Should we have forfeited the game because of that? What about someone going from 4 step to a 6 step delivery to generate more ball speed on a drier condition?

The intent of this rule is this:
Once a bowler begins a league season with a particular hand, they must stay with that hand. Those that are fortunate enough to be able to bowl with both hands get upset, but from a USBC standpoint, it would be like bringing in a totally new bowler to shoot 1 frame or part of one frame. You wouldn't allow that, so why allow someone to switch hands.
Also, it is designed to stop super-obvious sandbagging, the person throwing every ball for the last game between their legs, etc. But most true sandbaggers aren't that obvious anyway.
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shelley

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Re: USBC Rule 118b
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2007, 08:18:53 AM »
quote:
Also, it is designed to stop super-obvious sandbagging, the person throwing every ball for the last game between their legs, etc. But most true sandbaggers aren't that obvious anyway.


Super-obvious in league may not be super-obvious in a tournament 200 miles away in a different house.  Most sandbaggers would need new pants if they found out they could establish a left-handed average and use it to bowl tournaments right-handed.

SH

rexb300

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Re: USBC Rule 118b
« Reply #30 on: October 19, 2007, 09:11:14 AM »
right jorge & shelly
it is to protect averages from bagging
put on other hand doing it 1 or 2 times
is not a big deal some bowlers have to
let off steam we know that.
I don't like a bowlers that kicks or drops balls
because they bowl bad.

on this subject I seen bowlers like leave a 7-10
in tenth frame just push reset button
what about that. that more of a bag then
a bowler that throws between legs or use 2 hands.
its all about how you treat the game.
RB