Post by: tfav44 on April 20, 2008, 05:12:34 AM
thats my rant
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tfav44
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Post by: charlest on April 20, 2008, 01:33:42 PM
If you don't want to bowl on PBA shot or a sport shot, THEN don't.
Let those of us who wish to, bowl on something that takes a tiny bit of skill.
We like the sport. You want to play the "game" of bowling, then go ahead. Just don't try to stop those of us who wish to engage in the "SPORT" of bowling. There is a huge difference between the two.
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Post by: 302efi on April 20, 2008, 01:59:33 PM
As you said, USBC membership is declining and its not because of easy lane conditions.
Shouldnt easy lane condition make more USBC membership ?
The real whiners are the ones screaming the lanes are to easy. If they are to easy, then quit and take up some other hobby. Can't people just enjoy a couple games of bowling a week without some "integrity azzhat" yelling how easy it is ?
For all of the THS haters, I assume you all avg 250+, correct ?..If not, why not ?...You say its soooo easy ?!?!?!
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Edited on 4/20/2008 2:00 PM
Post by: Russell on April 20, 2008, 02:05:59 PM
If you don't like it don't play?
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Post by: Sawuser on April 20, 2008, 02:06:40 PM
It's called integrity & lack of!
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HARDCORE FOS
Post by: 302efi on April 20, 2008, 02:09:22 PM
quote:
By looking at scores in some areas of the country, I can understand some complaints of "TOO easy"!
But the question is, are the ones shooting these big scores the ones complaining how easy it is ????
Prob not...
So then the ones who can't score well, even on a easy THS are the one complaining..
Owned
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Post by: Strider on April 20, 2008, 02:14:06 PM
For me, it's not so much the averages, but the lack of variety that makes me want to try other types of leagues. Stand near the left gutter, aim somewhere near the 3rd arrow, send the ball out to 7, rinse and repeat. With the PBA leagues, you HAVE to move around and think a little. Versatility is important and yes, more equipment is a big help. If you want a little diversion after a hard week of work and want to throw a few with the buddies and have a few beers, the THS league isn't going anywhere. For the small number of us wanting more, don't complain about the one PBA league that's "invaded" your house.
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Post by: Soaring Eagle on April 20, 2008, 02:23:06 PM
I myself perfer a harder shot than an easy one, this way I get a better reading of what lane conditions I need to work on. There is no sport on just dropping the ball and watching it go into the pocket. And this was when I was still bowling on wood lanes way back when.
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Post by: TWOHAND834 on April 20, 2008, 02:28:50 PM
I think the thing with the USBC is that there are some people out there with general curiosity on what bowling on PBA conditions is like. So, the USBC is promoting that for those who WANT to test the waters per se, can now have that opportunity. But, as other here have said, if you don't want to, then don't.
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Post by: Spider Ball Bowler on April 20, 2008, 02:43:36 PM
I average 228 on the easy shot that allows me to play straight. Why do you think that is....because it is easy, and I learned to bowl playing straight up the boards. Of course anytime you put me on a shot that I can play straight I am going to do well. I average 211 on a shot that hooks, and I have to swing it. Why is that...because I am trying to learn better on how to swing the ball. If I had learned to bowl by swinging the ball, I would average higher on that shot then I do on the straight shot, but it is not the case. Do I consider myself a good player...yes....do I consider myself an all star...no....I could not even tie the shoes of the real all stars, and I realize this.
Now if I go bowl sport, do I think I would do well. No. If I bowled sport as much as I bowl on house shots, and learn the different patterns and put in as much work as I did to get better on a house shot I think I could be a pretty competetive bowler. I believe anyone could.
I am not a fan of bowlers who do not put in their time, and score because of the easy lane conditions and strong equipment. Sadly, that is many of the players in todays game.
I have been watching this go on for the past 4 years of adult leagues, and really it burns me. I put in, and I know many of the better or even good players on these boards did too, so much time to get better at a game I love, only to see 10 years later, that people without a clue can compete around the same level I worked so hard to achieve because of the soft lanes and strong equipment.
There is not one other atheletic competition I can think of you can fake your way into being good at.....take that for what its worth.
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Ahhh Disco Biscuits!
Post by: dizzyfugu on April 20, 2008, 02:45:06 PM
The typical house league has an easy walled shot, and short formats per evening. The longest I have taken part in was a 4 game set for a trio team - hardly enough traffic to force players to adjust. You just stand left, toss the ball across the lane, and if you have some hand it will come back. Even release suckers can play this and think they's "play" bowling. Even though you still have to have some skill to obtain a 200+ average, this is by far no challenge.
IMHO, more power to flat patterns and longer formats - and make them the normal condition, not the experience "bowl like the pros" crap. The fact that these patterns ruin many players' dreams of bein good surely drives them away from challenging conditions - back to the THS where they can think they'd be kings. Since this is the norm and few lane proprietors will take moves against it, the sport of bowling is in a dead end.
Besides, you do not need tons of balls or equipment to be competitive. 2 balls plus a spare are anything a "good" league player will need - but on a THS you hardly ever get the need and chance to evolve your game to a higher, competitive level. Striving for "Away" games is therefore the minimum you should do, if you want to be able to "play" bowling.
Stop whining, search for challenges.
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Post by: Atochabsh on April 20, 2008, 02:46:44 PM
I'm glad that those that want Sport/PBA leagues have them available to them. Enjoy them as just another aspect of this sport.
Erin
Post by: 302efi on April 20, 2008, 02:52:05 PM
quote:
I am with strider, and basically with charlest, too. With many easy patterns around, I think many people do not witness the sport of bowling and the challenge it may offer. The THS kills the intellectual challenge, or the need for s strategy.
The typical house league has an easy walled shot, and short formats per evening. The longest I have taken part in was a 4 game set for a trio team - hardly enough traffic to force players to adjust. You just stand left, toss the ball across the lane, and if you have some hand it will come back. Even release suckers can play this and think they's "play" bowling. Even though you still have to have some skill to obtain a 200+ average, this is by far no challenge.
IMHO, more power to flat patterns and longer formats - and make them the normal condition, not the experience "bowl like the pros" crap. The fact that these patterns ruin many players' dreams of bein good surely drives them away from challenging conditions - back to the THS where they can think they'd be kings. Since this is the norm and few lane proprietors will take moves against it, the sport of bowling is in a dead end.
Besides, you do not need tons of balls or equipment to be competitive. 2 balls plus a spare are anything a "good" league player will need - but on a THS you hardly ever get the need and chance to evolve your game to a higher, competitive level. Striving for "Away" games is therefore the minimum you should do, if you want to be able to "play" bowling.
Stop whining, search for challenges.
My point exactly..lol
What do avg on a "Easy" house shot ? Prob 200 or a little over. But I bet the top guy in league is around 220 or so, correct ?
If it is so easy or hardly a challange (as you said), Why don't you avg 250+ ?
If it is so easy or hardly a challange (as you said), why even bowl in it ?
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Post by: ThongPrincess on April 20, 2008, 03:39:36 PM
I have no problem with bowlers choosing either or both formats. Bowling should have a place for all types of bowlers. As for a different extra equipment, I use the same for both types of leagues. I may change a surface for the sport league, but have not purchased anything that is exclusive for the sport shot.
A few weeks ago I changed my WhirlWind. My coach recommended taking all the polish off, going over it with a green pad and taking it to 2000 - NO POLISH. It read the Viper pattern well in the sport league Monday. I tried it out in my Wednesday 2nd shift THS league and found it was a great match.
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Post by: Strider on April 20, 2008, 04:02:36 PM
Of course everyone needs to improve so they can get better. On my Thursday league I was high average last year; this year I'm third. On my Tuesday league (still THS), I'm about 20th at best. Sure I try hard and am always looking to improve. However, several of the people who are way above me don't have games anyone would want to copy. Basically if you have a lot of speed and fairly high revs, you can score well there. Ball speed I can work on, but with my arthritis, I'm never going to dramatically increase my revs. Just because you can exploit the dry boards better than someone else doesn't necessarily make you a better bowler. A couple of these guys practically throw it side armed and spin the ball like a top. My shoulder and wrist hurt just watching these guys.
Not the point you want to hear, but one of the top dogs finally made it to one of the PBA pattern tournaments that they run here roughly once a month. This is even one of the guys with decent form, but kind of a one trick pony. Lot of speed and a lot of revs. Has no clue what to do without the wall of dry boards to the right. I shot about 590, made match play, and put a few bucks in my pocket. He barely broke 400, left with his tail between his legs, and will probably never be heard from again on these types of tournaments.
--------------------
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Post by: novawagonmaster on April 20, 2008, 04:06:48 PM
quote:
My point exactly..lol
What do avg on a "Easy" house shot ? Prob 200 or a little over. But I bet the top guy in league is around 220 or so, correct ?
If it is so easy or hardly a challange (as you said), Why don't you avg 250+ ?
If it is so easy or hardly a challange (as you said), why even bowl in it ?
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
302,
I have to disagree with you on this one.
I happen to know a guy who did average almost 250 for a whole season (in two leagues), and quit because bowling was too easy.
We had a PBA league for one lousy year. Not enough participation to continue the next year. Nobody wanted to know just how bad they really were, and most of those who found out by trying, did not want to do it again.
I suck. I have alot to learn, and should practice more than I do. I average 218 on the THS, and the high average in the house is 225. If I could carry one more strike per game, I would be at the top of the pecking order. I am not that good. I do not deserve to be averaging much over 200, let alone nearly 220. THS bowling allows bad shots to hit the pocket. Carry determines the winner. Sport bowling does not reward bad shots. You miss right, you hit the 3 pin in the face. You miss left, you go through the nose. It's not hard to figure the patterns out, you just have to execute consistently.
To answer your last question (Why bowl in it?), it's the only option we have now. I would have to drive nearly an hour to get to the closest center that hosts a PBA league these days. It is just not realistic for me to do that.
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Jon (in Ohio)
aka: Rico Swerve~
Post by: Strapper_Squared on April 20, 2008, 04:08:01 PM
S^2
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Post by: tfav44 on April 20, 2008, 04:14:12 PM
I'm glad that those that want Sport/PBA leagues have them available to them. Enjoy them as just another aspect of this sport.
Erin
this is my point thanks erin. the majority of dues payed(usbc income) is in regular leagues. yet regular leagues are basically ignored, check the usbc site. the main thing is i love to bowl but don't like the usbc's marketing stratagy. with the economy in the crapper they need to look in other ways to grow the sport
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tfav44
twisted fury
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hot rod super sport pearl
a bad night of bowling is better than a good night at work.
every frame is a opportunity to succeed!
www.virginiabeachtraveltips.com
Post by: zone on April 20, 2008, 04:26:16 PM
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Post by: BOWLGNUT on April 20, 2008, 04:32:15 PM
Post by: EagleHunter on April 20, 2008, 04:46:57 PM
You seem to be missing the point, which is surprising since you just made it: "[USBC] need to look in other ways to grow the sport"
USBC is attempting to do just that...grow the SPORT. The vast majority of leagues certified through USBC are by most definitions fun, non-competitive leagues that fall WAY outside of what any knowledgeable observer would consider SPORT.
As the National Governing Body (NGB) of the SPORT, USBC's main task is to find ways to grow the Sport, not necessarily the recreation, which is what most of certified bowling has become.
The problem is that most don't want to compete under Sport conditions, yet they expect to be recognized and rewarded as if they are. Does a score shot under Sport conditions make it more valid than a similar score shot under Typical House Shot (THS) conditions? ABSOLUTELY.
If there is anyone that thinks otherwise...well I would refer back to the KNOWLEDGEABLE observer part above.
Post by: Neptune66 on April 20, 2008, 05:15:15 PM
1) Availability of a Sport Shot
2) The snobbish attitude of SOME of the better bowlers and posters to this forum.
Regarding #1): I average around 200 in one house, yet struggle with only a 173 average in another. Last summer I tried out the Sport Shot a few times and to me.... it was in-between the two houses I frequent the most. Not as easy as the 200 house, but easier than whatever crap pattern is being laid out at the other one.
At least I knew when I released the ball on the Sport Shot, where it would end up. Might not be a good shot or carry as well as I liked, but I got what I deserved... no robbery and no breaks. I WOULD like to bowl on it some more, but do not want to replace my favorite house shot with it. So... mixed feelings, but am open to it as an alternative.
Regarding #2): It is a real turn off when I read some of the comments and put downs here about those of us bowling on an "easy" shot. First of all, regardless of the shot, easy for one is hard for someone else, and visa versa. A bowler with lots of speed and lower revs is probably laughing at the posts from the people here who whine about not enough oil. And conversely, someone with tons of revs and slower speed, probably finds those of you who complain about too much oil or carrydown to be whiners.
What ever happened to "to each his own"?
When I am bowling next to novice bowlers and see them getting all excited about the slightest little success. Or see them celebrating one stupid shot as if they just won a PBA title (or the Superbowl, World Series, etc.) I kind of shake my head at their silliness, but I do not begrudge them their happiness or make comments about how pathetic their scores are. Or say anything (even behind their backs) about how the lanes must be too easy if someone like that can get a strike or score more than an 100 or 80 or whatever, etc...
All I am trying to say (and I think a minority [so far] of those responding to this thread would agree with me) is that wanting or endorsing the Sport Shot or PBA Shot leagues is fine. But neither the USBC nor the "better bowlers" out there should be promoting it by putting down the average (or even below average) Joes and Janes, and belittling their accomplishments.
I am MORE likely to want to try my hand at a tougher shot after my confidence is increased from success on a more conventional shot. If I'm failing and getting frustrated on the "easy" shot, why on earth would I even attempt the tougher shot?
In other words... both the easy and hard[er] shots should be seen as complimenting each other. Not mutually exclusive.
My 12 cents in this.
Edited on 4/20/2008 5:17 PM
Edited on 4/20/2008 5:21 PM
Post by: BeansProShop on April 20, 2008, 05:17:25 PM
Get your PBA card an bowl some tournaments!
The oil machine and the oil as well as the volume of oil is very different than what you bowl on in you "PBA" leagues...
Trust me...
Regionals play very different than the PBA Experience leagues. The patterns play different on different surfaces as well.
If you really want to engage in the "SPORT" of bowling. Just bowl a Regional as a guest and you will see.
Beans
--------------------
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--------------------
Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
PBA Member and Lane#1 Ball Drilling Expert
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Post by: Strider on April 20, 2008, 05:23:41 PM
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Post by: novawagonmaster on April 20, 2008, 05:28:33 PM
quote:
I have an idea....
Get your PBA card an bowl some tournaments!
The oil machine and the oil as well as the volume of oil is very different than what you bowl on in you "PBA" leagues...
Trust me...
Regionals play very different than the PBA Experience leagues. The patterns play different on different surfaces as well.
If you really want to engage in the "SPORT" of bowling. Just bowl a Regional as a guest and you will see.
Beans
--------------------
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--------------------
Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
PBA Member and Lane#1 Ball Drilling Expert
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There is also a big difference between paying $15 per week for a local PBA league and $300 per event to bowl regional tournaments!
Like I said, I know where I stand, and I would be donating every time I shoed up for a regional. I still want to bowl one eventually just for the experience. That said, I enjoy the tougher conditions and would like to bowl on them weekly so I can measure my improvement. Measuring improvement on a THS is not a matter of improving accuracy. It is a matter of increasing rev rate to improve carry.
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aka: Rico Swerve~
Post by: BeansProShop on April 20, 2008, 05:40:17 PM
quote:
Gee Beans, way to make Neptune's second point.
--------------------
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I was not trying to degrade anything or anyone but the true SPORT of the game is more than 3 games a week in league. I was trying to put focus on the differences in the conditions and the stamina needed to bowl that many games. Sometimes words read different than implied. I am sorry if I offended anyone.
With that said.... I really enjoy both avenues. I love bowling on the great wall of china and padding my Hall of Fame numbers
but I also like bowling tournaments.I enjoy tourneys that are shoot outs just the same as bowling regionals..
I just love bowling any way it is handed to me. After almost having career ending arthritis invade my body. I am just happy to bowl whenever and on whatever I can.
Thanks
beans
--------------------
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--------------------
Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
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Edited on 4/20/2008 5:42 PM
Post by: charlest on April 20, 2008, 06:12:03 PM
quote:
I have an idea....
Get your PBA card an bowl some tournaments!
The oil machine and the oil as well as the volume of oil is very different than what you bowl on in you "PBA" leagues...
Trust me...
Regionals play very different than the PBA Experience leagues. The patterns play different on different surfaces as well.
If you really want to engage in the "SPORT" of bowling. Just bowl a Regional as a guest and you will see.
Beans
--------------------
www.beansproshop.com
--------------------
Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
PBA Member and Lane#1 Ball Drilling Expert
Thanks for reading and be sure to check us out at the Lane#1 booth in Albuquerque. Check out current eBay auctions at:
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I wonder if the point you're making is they play different when you have to play the 8 game transition, rather than the 3 or 4 game transition of a PBA experience shot. That is a MAJOR difference. The 8 game transition is or can be BRUTAL.
But most houses do do their best in applying the PBA patterns to their house's lane surfaces.
There is a major problem when those patterns are applied to wood or, worse, yet, old worn, wood houses. I've seen that. Every different PBA pattern becomes the same shot. That is wrong and fruitless.
--------------------
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Post by: charlest on April 20, 2008, 06:18:27 PM
What I was intending on attacking in tfav44's original post was the apparent attempt to take away USBC's, however flawed and feble it is, experiment to restore some integrity to scoring with PBA and sport patterns, WHEN BOWLERS WISH TO PARTICIPATE IN THEM. Not allowing these leagues to happen is, at the least, an injustice, based on ignorance. At the worst, it is myopic and destructive to bowling.
--------------------
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Post by: 302efi on April 20, 2008, 08:08:46 PM
No, they don't
They only complain when they get beat or didnt bowl well and the high-rev, high-speed bowler mopped the floor with them.
Whats odd is most of these guys saying how easy THS is, are hardly putting a 200 avg ?! If its so easy, why can't you avg higher then that ?!?!
Being a high-rev bowler I get carry that the low revers don't..Through the nose, light hits ....I mean, I have room to play with on a THS...just don't be mad when you can't do the same, then complain the game is easy...If its so easy, why don't you shoot higher? Oh, its easy when I get good carry, right ?
BS
Most of the easy complainers are "older" (gotta becareful here
) that don't have power games...How many high-rev bowlers actually complain about THS ?...and for the record, I DID bowl in my local center PBA exp league. I ended the season with 192 avg.
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Post by: EagleHunter on April 20, 2008, 10:22:22 PM
Does it really matter if your average is 20-30 pins less (using the Sport average scale)?
No one is telling you that you need to practice longer or harder...unless, of course, you actually WANT to get better. But to continue to cry about any attempts to make scoring more credible? If you know the difference and yet you still demand the THS, then you merely want to continue the charade that is your own ability.
USBC is tasked with making the SPORT viable again. They simply cannot do that if Joe Bowler is out there (anywhere) outscoring the professionals. The mass media and the general public have no clue about the difficulties about lane conditioning, nor do they care, they only see the Pros being outscored by that local guy down the street. Yeah, that will sure bring in more corporate money and respect for the sport.
Post by: StraightBall on April 20, 2008, 11:42:13 PM
Everybody should lay off the league bowlers. Let em have their fun. We can't afford to lose anyone, because without all these guys bowling, who would all you hotshot, high reving, bowling gods beat in the city and state tournaments?
I am done with my rant.
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Bill
Post by: ThongPrincess on April 21, 2008, 12:01:54 AM
I don't understand why some on here seem to think it has to be one or the other, isn't there a place for both THS and Sport? Why do we have to belittle those who don't want to participate in Sport/PBA leagues? I also wonder why those who are happy with THS feel the need to put down those who support Sport/PBA leagues. USBC and all the entities of bowling need to work on building bowling and that means having something for everyone.
On a side note, our local association is working to offer tournaments for all level of bowlers. They have added a Masters and Queens last year to be expanded to include a Youth division this year for the higher average scratch bowlers. City tournament has gone scratch, but with enough divisions to fit every level of bowler.
--------------------
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"I cannot change the direction of the wind but I can adjust my sails to reach my destination." Jimmy Dean
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Post by: mainzer on April 21, 2008, 12:10:50 AM
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Mainzerpower
Post by: tfav44 on April 21, 2008, 09:18:26 AM
--------------------
tfav44
twisted fury
eraser boost
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a bad night of bowling is better than a good night at work.
every frame is a opportunity to succeed!
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Post by: Nicanor on April 21, 2008, 10:03:20 AM
Some like to bowl league for fun and relaxtion. Bowling PBA Experience shot or a very tough house shot is too taxing for those of us who just want to tke the stress off.
There is two PBA Experience legues in our house. If I wanted to bowl a tough but fair shot, I would join one of those leagues. If any on this forum bowled San Diego City singles and doubles this year at Admiral Robinson, you seen our house shot. Averages for those who bowled the PBA Experience legaue averged an average of 0 pins higher in the PBA Experience league then the league they bowled in the same house on the house shot. No I'm noy saying the PBA Experience shot ws or is easy, its just that it was a fair shot.
But some of us just wnt to bowl, maybe have a beer or two and not totlly hve to fry our brains fter three games trying to stay focused on relatively difficult shot.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: Visionary 4626 on April 21, 2008, 11:45:25 AM
Other ways of improving your game are to sign up for out of town tournaments at bowling centers you have not previously bowled in. Although these centers may have THS conditions, the lanes will usually read somewhat different forcing you to make adjustments and ball changes to consistently get to the pocket and score.
It takes a high level of dedication and determination to be a consistently good 230+ bowler even on house shots. You must be prepared to put in the time and effort it takes to be a high level player.
T. Scott
USBC Coach
PBA Member
Post by: Slopsurprise on April 21, 2008, 11:51:12 AM
Post by: Nicanor on April 21, 2008, 12:40:00 PM
Why?
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: newguy on April 21, 2008, 01:30:59 PM
If you avg 205 on tour you made a decent living. Only a few bowlers avg 200+ and in league achieving a 200 avg was a recognized achievement.
Post by: titletowncards on April 21, 2008, 01:31:19 PM
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titletowncards
Post by: JessN16 on April 21, 2008, 01:38:13 PM
Mandate a flat shot for all leagues and you can move up the timetable for league bowling to disappear. I've heard more people complain about LOW scores than high in my life -- and I've been an ABC association president and a recruiter for a set of leagues in another city. Same thing for mandating tame bowling balls.
If you try to make bowling's scoring pace draconian in nature, we'll be at the tree-falling-in-the-woods point very soon: Is there such a thing as a bowler when there is no such thing as bowling?
Both sides of this post are correct to some extent. There does need to be some general toughening up of lane conditions, but all you "sport snobs" posting in this thread can go take a collective flying leap. Not only can the sport not afford to have that opinion out there, the opinion itself is ridiculous. 302efi keeps asking a question no one is answering -- if THS led to automatic honor scores, everyone who could get a ball to roll off their hand would average 250, but that doesn't happen. Skill is still a major component of scoring and nothing you can say changes that fact.
What bowling needs, simply, is more of everything. More THS leagues, more sport leagues, more tournaments, more cosmic bowling, more of it all. People who want to put more and more restrictions on the sport are hurting five times as much as they help.
And besides, what is it exactly of substance that we can bowl for? Tournaments. I use a piece of auto racing terminology to serve as an analogy here -- "self-cleaning racetrack;" meaning, that if someone wants to average deuce-thirty on cake, let them. As soon as they go to a tournament, reality will hit them in the face all by itself. The "racetrack" will clean itself after those guys have their wreck in the tournament. They don't need anyone else to tell them what's what.
Jess
Edited on 4/21/2008 1:40 PM
Post by: badnuzjr on April 21, 2008, 01:48:08 PM
Bowling must overcome the perception that anyone can do it. Or it will continue to decline.
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Bad Nuz is Good News
Edited on 4/21/2008 1:48 PM
Post by: Dan Belcher on April 21, 2008, 01:52:51 PM
quote:Very true. At least once a month in league, someone will tell me "you should go pro!" I have to actually explain to them how little my 225 house shot average means, and how difficult pro bowling actually is (and how little money is in it unless you're one of the 10-20 best bowlers in the world!).
How many league bowlers truly understand the difference between what the pros do and what they are doing. I don't think it is a very high percentage.
Post by: JessN16 on April 21, 2008, 02:07:39 PM
quote:
The bottom line is that perception is everything. If people perceive that any house hack can go out and bowl better scores than a pro, then that is what they are going to think. How many league bowlers truly understand the difference between what the pros do and what they are doing. I don't think it is a very high percentage. If you toughen up the house shots then people will gradually get better at them, but they won't be knocking down 10-pins at the rate they are now. The top 5 highest averages have all be compiled in the last 8 years....so obviously something has changed that has increased scores.
Bowling must overcome the perception that anyone can do it. Or it will continue to decline.
--------------------
Bad Nuz is Good News
Edited on 4/21/2008 1:48 PM
Where does that perception exist, exactly?
I've found it exists in mostly one place: The minds of bowlers who *think* everyone else thinks they can do what they do.
That sure doesn't seem to be the case with virtually every single amateur newbie I've ever encountered. They seem to be full of questions -- how do you do that, what do I need to do, what ball should I buy, etc.
There is no evidence that a nationwide perception exists among non-bowlers that anyone can score 200+. If there is, it usually takes one drunk cosmic bowling night or one birthday party with a house ball for them to realize their ceiling is roughly 140.
A lot of amateur/league bowlers have a big-time self-confidence and self-esteem complex. What are we hoping for here? That people will be awed with us as bowlers the same way they're awed by Barry Bonds or Alex Rodriguez?
That isn't going to happen, it's never been this way and it's never going to be that way. Bowling is not the same as those sports. And it doesn't really matter, anyway. NASCAR fans all drive cars and if I've heard one fan say this I've heard a thousand -- "I could drive like that if only a,b,c,d...etc." But they still show up to the events, watch, spend money and dream about driving fast when they're going down the road in their wife's minivan.
The aim here is not to make high- or even mid-level bowling some kind of mystical activity unattainable by the common man. The common man would laugh his *** off at the notion that bowling is a truly difficult sport, and that will NEVER change. The aim here is to get membership up, and that's not going to get done by making it more difficult to be a bowler.
As I said before, tournaments or anything with a longer format will fix any of these issues. If that's not direct enough, challenge these guys to bowl you yourself. If they beat you, you're probably not as good as you thought you were. No offense meant, but that's the truth.
And, we all need to sack up and quit worrying about what other people think of us anyway. That's not why I bowl.
Jess
Edited on 4/21/2008 2:09 PM
Post by: 302efi on April 21, 2008, 02:16:25 PM
quote:
The bottom line is that perception is everything. If people perceive that any house hack can go out and bowl better scores than a pro, then that is what they are going to think. How many league bowlers truly understand the difference between what the pros do and what they are doing. I don't think it is a very high percentage
Why does it matter what people think or preceive ?
I don't see where a league bowler has to understand the shot is different then the PBA.
WHY DOES PERCEPTION OF PBA MEAN ANYTHING IN LEAGUE BOWLING ?!?!?!
League bowling is one thing....PBA bowling is a totally different thing. Why do they have to inter-cross ????
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Post by: badnuzjr on April 21, 2008, 02:24:12 PM
Bowling should be viewed as difficult at it's top level. Bowling is one of a few sports where different people compete against the game at different difficulties. Golfers go out and golf the same course. Baseball players all play baseball on the same fields. Same distance between bases, same average distance to fence. All football players play on a field that is 300 feet goaline to goaline regardless if it is Pro, College, or High School. Bowlings in ability to capture that same idea has left it behind.
Nearly 10 million members of the USBC in 1982....10,000,000...down to about 2,700,000 today. How many 300's in 1982...about 6,000.....today....over 50,000....so we have fewer league bowlers and more perfect games. Bowling must create a pattern of growth for a young bowler. Which means they should not go out and be able to throw 300's like it's nothing. They need to get better and compete at higher levels as they get older to maintain that will to grow. The problem is bowling has a ceiling. Once you've achieved 300 where do you go. The USBC has to address that question and I think they are.
--------------------
Bad Nuz is Good News
Post by: CHawk15 on April 21, 2008, 02:36:22 PM
The USBC is also attempting to change the "anyone can do it and do it well" perception by pushing the leagues w/ tougher conditions. What it really comes down to is this, if you want to learn the game and become a more versatile player, then join a sport shot league, PBA Experience league or go bowl a PBA regional to learn how to bowl on shots other than a THS. If you're satisfied with your current game and want to participate in a "carry contest" rather than being rewarded for making a good shot and punished for making a bad or OK shot, then bowl your regular THS league. Sounds like tfav44 is in the second category, and that's perfectly fine. Personally, I'm more in the first category. Yes, they are trying to encourage the league bowlers to bowl on the tougher conditions
I'm not saying that it doesn't take any skill at all to bowl on a THS, because you have to be capable of repeating shots, just not to the precision that you do on a sport shot or PBA shot. For example, I bowl in one center where the high speed/rev players dominate because they can create more area than the rest of us. The lead average guy in the house (18yr old, 235 avg) goes to nationals and shoots in the 300s for series. What does that tell you ?? I agree the true test is bowling a regional, because I bowled a summer PBA league last summer that was a complete joke, they didn't have the lane machine to do it properly.
Post by: JessN16 on April 21, 2008, 02:39:38 PM
quote:
I absolutely think that youth bowlers should be in awe of the pros....not Joe house bowler...and that is the problem. When the scores on the machine are perceived as being on equal playing fields then there is an issue. Why would the youth bowlers want to strive to be the guys they see on the lanes in their local bowling alleys? They should be trying to be more like the Pros. Then they have something to work towards.
The fault there is in bowling's dropping the ball in education, not in lane conditions or ball tech. How many handouts have you ever received in league talking about the oil pattern? Every golf course in America puts their layout on the scorecard but we can't even have one education program about what THS is or isn't.
quote:
Bowling should be viewed as difficult at it's top level. Bowling is one of a few sports where different people compete against the game at different difficulties. Golfers go out and golf the same course. Baseball players all play baseball on the same fields. Same distance between bases, same average distance to fence. All football players play on a field that is 300 feet goaline to goaline regardless if it is Pro, College, or High School. Bowlings in ability to capture that same idea has left it behind.
Several things going on ehre:
* Not sure bowling has ever been viewed that way.
* Golfers have handicap/slope and multiple teeing locations. Everyone does not play the same course nor do their scores indicate what they truly did. This doesn't even get into whether you play a difficult course or an easy course.
* If you've got amateur adult baseball in your area, you are one of very few. In 95%+ of the country, it's slow-pitch softball. Even in amateur baseball, the pitching is substantially less quality, and besides, you're talking about an offense/defense sport that is barely comparable to bowling. Same for football.
quote:
Nearly 10 million members of the USBC in 1982....10,000,000...down to about 2,700,000 today. How many 300's in 1982...about 6,000.....today....over 50,000....so we have fewer league bowlers and more perfect games. Bowling must create a pattern of growth for a young bowler. Which means they should not go out and be able to throw 300's like it's nothing. They need to get better and compete at higher levels as they get older to maintain that will to grow. The problem is bowling has a ceiling. Once you've achieved 300 where do you go. The USBC has to address that question and I think they are.
--------------------
Bad Nuz is Good News
The USBC is not addressing this question, because the USBC isn't capable of addressing the factors that have driven millions of bowlers out of its sport: Economy and the change of American society.
I've told this story here dozens of times: I was a recruiter for years and ran into fewer than five people who quit because of a high scoring pace. In fact, I ran into more who quit because scores were allegedly too low. But I saw a 160-man league get wiped out in one day because the local steel plant dropped its third shift.
Take every person you know to have personally quit the sport because of scoring pace, multiply it by a few hundred thousand and you'll have the people who quit it for reasons that have nothing to do with what happened inside the bowling center. Economic factors lead that list, followed by video games and Americans' decreasing desire to actually get out and do crap.
And you might want to check the numbers for those other sports (baseball, golf): They're in decline as well. Rounds played in golf leveled off after 2000 and are in decline, and recreational softball leagues are also shrinking in many areas. No one is doing well, and those other sports don't have scoring issues to deal with.
Jess
Post by: 9andaWiggle on April 21, 2008, 02:52:09 PM
quote:quote:
The bottom line is that perception is everything. If people perceive that any house hack can go out and bowl better scores than a pro, then that is what they are going to think. How many league bowlers truly understand the difference between what the pros do and what they are doing. I don't think it is a very high percentage
Why does it matter what people think or preceive ?
I don't see where a league bowler has to understand the shot is different then the PBA.
WHY DOES PERCEPTION OF PBA MEAN ANYTHING IN LEAGUE BOWLING ?!?!?!
League bowling is one thing....PBA bowling is a totally different thing. Why do they have to inter-cross ????
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
The problem, as I see it, with perception is this:
Would people go watch pro baseball if little-league kids could throw 100 mph fast-balls and smack HRs out of stadiums the same size the pro's play on?
That's what bowling is up against. Why should people pay to watch the Pro's throw lower scores than they can bowl themselves in league? Respect for the professionals of this sport is lost because anyone can visit any center on any league night and see telephone numbers put up for free.
Add to that, why do people watch professional sports? The HR over the Green Wall, the 60 yard hail-mary, the half-court buzzer-beater, the chip in from the bunker. What does bowling have? The 300 game that 60,000 people in regular league did themselves last year? Kind of trivializes the efforts of a pro bowler, doesn't it?
--------------------
9~
It's a Sheep thing... You wouldn't understand!
Post by: 302efi on April 21, 2008, 02:58:40 PM
quote:
Why should people pay to watch the Pro's throw lower scores than they can bowl themselves in league? Respect for the professionals of this sport is lost because anyone can visit any center on any league night and see telephone numbers put up for free.
Why should a regular league bowler care anything about a PBA pro ?
League bowling is not as closely paired with PBA as it was in the 70-80's
Why does a league bowler have to have respect for a PBA bowler or their scores ?
League bowling is one thing, PBA bowling is something else. Why cross them up? Just because its the same sport or game, does not mean it has to be at the same level.
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Post by: 302efi on April 21, 2008, 03:02:00 PM
quote:
Sorry.. easy lane conditions drive membership down. Any bowler wants to be rewarded for good shotmaking. When this is not the case, then why bother?
Personally, I get BORED with the THS wall shot. Put it outside 10 somewhere downlane and watch it scream back. I get sick of watching the "area masters" shoot 700 with open frames... and to top it off they think they are that good. Put a spray baby on a flatter pattern and watch them shoot 450.
--------------------
Ok....heres the answer to your problem:
Just quit bowling on a THS.
How hard is that ?...If you can't beat'em, then join'em
If your bored with the game and level you play, then go somewhere more difficult, problem solved
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Post by: trash heap on April 21, 2008, 03:03:41 PM
This is EVERY YEAR! Right now it is 100% of 220. Some Guys want to have the base lowered some want it higher! Some want the percent back to 80%! Some guys will argue and have no clue how handicap works in bowling. It is amazing to watch this every year. People think that some teams have the advantage while others think they are getting ripped off.
In my opinion the main reason for this argument: THS!!!!!
There is a HUGE gap in averages between high average bowlers vs. low average bowlers.
1. A High average (225) bowler get upset when a low average (170) bowler bowls his best of the year.
High Average Bowler 3 game set: 750 scratch
Low Average Bowler 3 game set: 690 scratch (Beats the guy with handicap)
Statement: "How can I compete against that!"
2. Low Average (170) bowler gets upset when high average bowler (225) beats him because the Handicap base is lower than his average (220) or the % of the base is NOT 100%.
Statement: "We both made our average, and I still lose instead of it being a tie!"
When guys don't get it their way...they quit!!
I also believe that the THS has lead bowlers to worry about their average more than their team winning or losing. I hear more guys say, "Well we lost but I bowled above my average!" or "At least I was over 600 tonight!" or "I need to bowl a 230 on the last game to keep my average!" or "I need to strike out to keep my average!"
On another note....
I am not sure how bowlers are in a league, only for it be fun and not be competitive at all. If your team is in 2nd place (one game behind 1st place team) and its the last night of league. Do you go into bowl stating: "I'm just going to have FUN tonight!" I guarantee that most bowlers are going to try to bowl their best.
Post by: 302efi on April 21, 2008, 03:07:43 PM
quote:
Already did that ... the problem is in my area they are very few sport compliant leagues
Well then if you don't enjoy bowling on what you have avalible, then I guess your done, right ?
Seriously, if your bored, why continue it?
I mean I checked your profile and you got a ton of balls in there...If your that bored with THS and it offers no challange, why buy the newest gear ?
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Post by: 9andaWiggle on April 21, 2008, 03:16:19 PM
quote:quote:
Why should people pay to watch the Pro's throw lower scores than they can bowl themselves in league? Respect for the professionals of this sport is lost because anyone can visit any center on any league night and see telephone numbers put up for free.
Why should a regular league bowler care anything about a PBA pro ?
League bowling is not as closely paired with PBA as it was in the 70-80's
Why does a league bowler have to have respect for a PBA bowler or their scores ?
League bowling is one thing, PBA bowling is something else. Why cross them up? Just because its the same sport or game, does not mean it has to be at the same level.
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
I understand that the league bowler doesn't care about the PBA bowler, and vice versa. So what does bowling, as a whole, want? Does it want to be a SPORT, where athletic talent is recognized, or does it want to be like skee-ball where you get your ticket for every strike thrown and cash them in at the counter for a stuffed animal, keychain, or free pitcher of beer?
If bowling is going to exist in any form greater than a recreational arcade game, then the league bowler is, IMO, going to have to lose the easy scoring condition so the Professional and/or Olympic bolwers stand out as being athletes. Right now, unless you're really in the know, they don't. As a result the general public does not recognize bowling as a SPORT. Therefore, the professional tour (from what I read/hear) has a tough row to hoe when it comes to selling enough tickets and garnering much needed sponsorship dollars to stay afloat.
If skee-ball is what everyone wants, then to heck with it all. Let's just dissolve the USBC and the PBA, and have ticket-dispensers installed beside the scoring monitors so everybody can get their awards.
Besides, if the league bowler is truly just out for fun and drinks, what difference does the scoring environment really make? If you're just there for fun and don't want to think about the lane condition just grab a plastic Viz-a-ball, fire at the headpin, and do your little dance when luck gives you a strike. Then go buy another round for your buddies.
--------------------
9~
It's a Sheep thing... You wouldn't understand!
Post by: 302efi on April 21, 2008, 03:29:05 PM
quote:
Therefore, the professional tour (from what I read/hear) has a tough row to hoe when it comes to selling enough tickets and garnering much needed sponsorship dollars to stay afloat.
So your saying that PBA bowlers are dependant on league bowlers ?
As I said before, people pay $20+ a week (or league) to bowl. If they bowl bad, then they don't want to bowl. People not bowling is what matters, not the PBA selling tickets.
I could care less if the PBA goes under. What has it done for me ? Notta.
60+ exempt bowler getting respect or recognition or 2.7 million bowlers quitting the game ? Take your pick.
Remember, leagues is bowling centers steady income, cut that and watch more then a few fold. Try to tell Brunswick to change the THS shots in all of their corprate centers. Or tell AMF that...The USBC matters very little and has little weight.
Who really wants bowling to called a sport ? Sh!t I could care less..lol
Can't people just enjoy the game and bowl ? Go out and buy a new ball and shoes, jump on a league and fun.
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Edited on 4/21/2008 3:32 PM
Post by: 9andaWiggle on April 21, 2008, 03:56:19 PM
quote:quote:
Therefore, the professional tour (from what I read/hear) has a tough row to hoe when it comes to selling enough tickets and garnering much needed sponsorship dollars to stay afloat.
So your saying that PBA bowlers are dependant on league bowlers ?
As I said before, people pay $20+ a week (or league) to bowl. If they bowl bad, then they don't want to bowl. People not bowling is what matters, not the PBA selling tickets.
I could care less if the PBA goes under. What has it done for me ? Notta.
60+ exempt bowler getting respect or recognition or 2.7 million bowlers quitting the game ? Take your pick.
Remember, leagues is bowling centers steady income, cut that and watch more then a few fold. Try to tell Brunswick to change the THS shots in all of their corprate centers. Or tell AMF that...The USBC matters very little and has little weight.
Who really wants bowling to called a sport ? Sh!t I could care less..lol
Can't people just enjoy the game and bowl ? Go out and buy a new ball and shoes, jump on a league and fun.
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Edited on 4/21/2008 3:32 PM
OK, I guess that settles it. I even have a new slogan for the USBC to use!
"2.7 million drunken bowlers can't be wrong!"
LOL
--------------------
9~
It's a Sheep thing... You wouldn't understand!
Post by: 302efi on April 21, 2008, 04:13:08 PM
What does it actually do for anybody or help improve the GAME of bowling ?
Why can't people enjoy bowling for what it is ?
I'm gonna be honest here and I'm sure some the olders bowlers will put me on ignore or bash me, who cares. The bowlers b!tches about the THS's is mostly the older bowlers whos styles can't take advantage the THS. Face it, the game of bowling has changed, power and revs create pin carry and area. Throwing it down 5 with no revs won't carry that well anymore. We no longer have to use 16lb balls. Just because you can't carry as well as someone else, DOES NOT make room for a complaint.
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on April 21, 2008, 04:45:23 PM
--------------------
"When in doubt, pull out." - ESPN's Rob Stone
Post by: Leftyhi-trak on April 21, 2008, 05:08:24 PM
Why have a governing body? Why have rules? Why have standards just bowl? Foul lines don't matter, Ball weight heck bigger is better. Sorry some level of even ground is needed and regulated. Otherwise factors which are in it to line their pockets will not take a high road. I don't disagree with a certain level of snobbery that exists. Some better bowlers also see it from guys who do exploit "THS" yet have no clue to facets of the game. (house/league kings) Thats where some of these "old" guys come off. That is their right. But answer this, looking at bowling as a sport do you not see a huge gap between the ordinary league and a professional or elite level. Why shouldn't there be something in place for someone who wants more than the "average" guy? The reason the USBC is working more with the PBA is to draw more interest in both. If you have identifable faces of merit you may draw interest. The decline of bowling is more to due with society changes and the lack of foresight 20-30 years ago to move with it.
Why can't we have both and why shouldn't USBC push "experience" leagues? It should be promoted to try at every house that has a champions/elite or scratch league. I don't agree with paying extra for it though. Sorry its a push button operation for most proprietors on a lane machine. Tape - Blah, Blah , Blah. You will know the difference make the proprietor step up to the plate on learning the game and his equipment so its done correctly. USBC needs to back off on the "extra requirements" maybe then you would see less heartburn to try one of those leagues.
Post by: tfav44 on April 21, 2008, 05:27:01 PM
1-ask yourselves wht did tha old abc switch from the long flat oil pattern of the 70's and early 80's to the crowned patterns used today.
2- the softball comment is awesome. comparing the pba to house leagues is like comparing softball to MLB. oh and by the way when softball bats got better and people started hitting more homers, the leagues said homers were outs. , guess what guys quit playing.
3-the usbc coach that was talking about practice, practice, practice, missed my point, many of us have jobs , family's, homes, ect. we don't have time to make bowling a second job.
--------------------
tfav44
twisted fury
eraser boost
hot rod super sport pearl
a bad night of bowling is better than a good night at work.
every frame is a opportunity to succeed!
www.virginiabeachtraveltips.com
Post by: T-GOD on April 21, 2008, 07:09:52 PM
The professional bowler can bowl 300 and 760 crossing pairs, while bowling 8 or more games at a time..!! That's the difference between a good league bowler and a pro, imo. =:^D
Post by: TDC57 on April 21, 2008, 07:54:37 PM
My favorite story is about a guy who was one of the top bowlers in our area. He bowled 20 years ago in a scratch league that pretty much had a reverse block for a shot. He moaned continually about the horrible shot we had to deal with every week. A few years later a new center manager comes along and softens the shot and presto the guy is now averaging 225. After a couple of years of that he's now moaning, "they've got to make this shot tougher". Toughen up the shot and the moaning would start again. So what is it tough or easy? Or is it just shut up and bowl where you want and forget about the other side!!! You can have it both ways and yes some places have went to ridiculously easy shots. That's wrong but there's nothing wrong with putting out a shot that if you throw the ball right you score. Putting out a shot that drops good bowlers 20-25 pins in average won't build the game.
Edited on 4/22/2008 1:56 AM
Post by: gbushman on April 21, 2008, 08:01:37 PM
--------------------
TOO many IDIOTS, so LITTLE time.
Post by: Atochabsh on April 21, 2008, 08:51:42 PM
quote:
In my opinion the main reason for this argument: THS!!!!!
I don't think so. Its not the shot actually on the lane. Its the overall lack of knowledge most bowlers have for the sport they are playing. This is mostly because most of the league bowlers do not use bowling as a sport, but rather as a social outing and recreation. Many typical league bowlers do not care what they shoot from night to night. Nor do they care why they shoot huge one week and low the next. They pay their dues and fees and have a fun evening out.
Like I've said before, its great that Sport/PBA conditions exist for those that want them. Most do not. And Sport/PBA bowlers should be greatful that the rest of Joe and Jane bowler still pay sanctioning fees that keep the USBC in business.
Erin
Post by: JessN16 on April 21, 2008, 09:00:13 PM
quote:
THS is to SPORT SHOT as MINATURE Golf is to 18 hole golf. ONE is recreation and the OTHER is SPORT.
--------------------
TOO many IDIOTS, so LITTLE time.
Nope.
THS is a municipal course played from the whites. Let's not let our hatred for easy shots lead us to make overboard comparisons that don't fit.
And everyone should take care to read Tony C's and Erin's post on the subject, which is where the truth gets separated from the fiction.
Jess
Post by: AdrianS on April 21, 2008, 09:29:08 PM
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Time for some REAL bowling!!!
Post by: mainzer on April 21, 2008, 10:30:21 PM
quote:
I love it when mainzer comes on with his "idiots review"
next time i will with hold my opinion
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Mainzerpower
Post by: SirAshley on April 21, 2008, 10:41:26 PM
--------------------
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Post by: EagleHunter on April 21, 2008, 10:42:09 PM
You still have failed to answer the very question that I posed earlier...
If everyone knows the great disparity between their own individual talent and that of the PBA boys (or formerly PWBA girls), then why can't they recognize that difference with an overall decrease in scoring average?
If you know that your 205-220 average doesn't compare with what the Pros are capable of, does that mean that your 175-190 average would mean you are less of a bowler?
Again the problem that many have about the THS is the attitude of many of the THS babies that they somehow have "earned" or "deserve" such high scores. Who said that high scores have to put you in the 220 average range? If you are just there for FUN (as most of you continue to claim), then why is your FUN tied directly to how you score? Sounds more like some type of competition than fun.
The ONLY growth area in bowling today is the youth area. And you know what, most of those YOUTH bowl on Sport conditions for anything that matters, including some leagues. It seems that SOMEONE seems to get it...perhaps youth isn't that naive after all.
Post by: JessN16 on April 21, 2008, 11:35:58 PM
quote:
Jess, efi, et al.,
You still have failed to answer the very question that I posed earlier...
If everyone knows the great disparity between their own individual talent and that of the PBA boys (or formerly PWBA girls), then why can't they recognize that difference with an overall decrease in scoring average?
If you know that your 205-220 average doesn't compare with what the Pros are capable of, does that mean that your 175-190 average would mean you are less of a bowler?
Again the problem that many have about the THS is the attitude of many of the THS babies that they somehow have "earned" or "deserve" such high scores. Who said that high scores have to put you in the 220 average range? If you are just there for FUN (as most of you continue to claim), then why is your FUN tied directly to how you score? Sounds more like some type of competition than fun.
The ONLY growth area in bowling today is the youth area. And you know what, most of those YOUTH bowl on Sport conditions for anything that matters, including some leagues. It seems that SOMEONE seems to get it...perhaps youth isn't that naive after all.
Youth JOG may be on sport shots but because my career is in the media, I've been fortunate enough to be able to cover state HS championships, state youth tournaments and other youth bowling activities (helps to be the boss and make the schedule), and the next one I see contested on a sport-compliant shot will be my first.
Back to your original point, I know my average is inflated and I know everyone else's is inflated and I suspect most of them know it, too. Yeah, there are some guys who are living in a dreamworld but I've found that we don't give league bowlers enough credit in knowing what's what.
However, what you're also not giving THS league bowlers credit for is the fact they and not you run the sport. That's because they have far greater numbers.
I don't care what scoring range you set for me; I'm going to bowl and that will be that. However, I am trying to slow the bleed-off in numbers at least to the point that I'll still be able to bowl in a sanctioned league 30 years from now when I'm a step away from my death bed.
If you mandate sport conditions for all USBC sanctioned leagues, I think you underestimate the backlash you're going to get. First, from proprietors, because most of them have no desire to make the shot harder nor the desire to do the extra work and spend the extra money to sanction it. Second, from the bowlers, because if they are going to have 150-160 averages rammed down their throats, a significant number are going to find something else to do with their time.
I've been, as I've said already, president of an association in the past and I've been out in the community trying to lead a recruiting effort. The support even among the current bowlers for dropping averages 30-40 pins is virtually nil. The only people who support that are the true high-ability level bowlers and even then it's not consistent.
If you either try to mandate sport shots for all, or turn back the ball technology, I'm going to guess the membership will drop by 33 percent as a conservative estimate and it will probably be worse. Many leagues will simply elect not to sanction. And if that happens, your version of the sport won't survive. The USBC can keep putting band-aids on the issue but cannot survive a major reduction in numbers all at once.
The way to bring bowlers back to the sport -- which is the only thing we should be worried about here, scores be da*ned -- is to do two things: Recruit our a**es off (which many associations won't do out of laziness) and find a way to retain the youth within the sport after high school. The second half of that is more important, but unfortunately we're working against things like college, which tends to interrupt bowling careers for youth due to lack of money to stay in the sport those four years. Many of them seem to disappear from the sport after that, for whatever reason.
If you want to mandate sport conditions for leagues -- a premise I highly doubt you'll ever be able to do under any circumstance -- you certainly won't do it until you add membership to leagues. Because you're going to have to be able to survive the hit in numbers you'll take if a changeover is made. Of course, this gets into a chicken/egg scenario, and sport bowling is on the wrong side of the equation.
Jess
Post by: zerorev on April 21, 2008, 11:52:26 PM
Post by: JessN16 on April 22, 2008, 12:01:38 AM
quote:
If you have such a problem with sanctioning go bowl in a non sanctioned league. If you think averaging 200 on a house shot is an accomplishment you are an idiot. If you wonder why golf and other sports that are difficult to learn and be good at and are thriving and don't understand why bowling is trying to follow suit you probably should quit bowling and take up checkers.
If that was directed at me, thanks for the advice but I'll continue to post my feelings on the matter whenever I see fit.
Golf isn't "thriving," by the way. Rounds played leveled in 2000 and are on the decline for the same reason bowling is really on the decline -- economic factors and creeping, general laziness of the American public. Scoring pace has nothing to do with either sport but no one wants to hear that. They want to ascribe their own biases to the situation hoping to make a point.
As for what average and scores mean in terms of "accomplishments," I'm not going to get too deep into that but I will say this: Bowling is the only sport where a significant number of its own adherents consistently rip other players for what they see as "legitimate" or "illegitimate" scoring. It's elitism. And what's funny about that is that bowling, least of all the major sports, has a right to be elitist in any way. It's a blue-collar sport played by average people and no one has a right to call anyone else's accomplishments illegitimate, because opinions on legitimacy don't mean jack spit.
When I hear bowlers rip other bowlers for a perceived lack of skill, I want to walk up and throw a glass of cold water in their face and remind them what exactly it is they're talking about. If you're getting high-n-mighty with someone over a bowling score, you've got a kind of self-esteem issue I don't even want to touch. Newsflash: No one is a better person or a more important person because of what they can bowl on a flat shot versus a THC shot versus the asphalt in the parking lot.
This sport doesn't need a rules rewrite, it needs a da*ned psychiatrist.
Jess
Post by: EagleHunter on April 22, 2008, 12:12:03 AM
On second thought, perhaps you are correct. After all you and your mostly non-competitive, only bowl for the fun of it brethren, have been in charge over the last 3 decades or so, thanks in large part to the Delegate system used by ABC. Perhaps you may want to lay claim to being partly responsible for the decline in membership? After all, this occurred during your watch.
The SPORT is governed and ruled by USBC, period. If they choose to mandate some type of condition, so be it. They certainly will not though, unless they were to have the support of the proprietors.
That said, the rhethoric being bandied about by both USBC leaders and BPAA leaders is to "GROW THE SPORT." Perhaps the proprietors have seen that giving the masses what they alledgedly want (high scores), hasn't led to the growth they assumed would occur. Perhaps massive changes are already underway.
Kegel developed the "Standard Ball" after being requested to look into its viability by one of the International governing bodies (WTBA, I think). They did not invest countless amounts of time/money just to say they did it. That said, perhaps Kegel's new lane conditioning formats were created in response to a request from someone (perhaps USBC & BPAA) in order to create various playing fields that could ultimately lead to some type of tiered membership concept, with the ultimate goal being the recognition of bowling, at its highest level, as a SPORT.
So let's say that is exactly what would happen, tiered membership with lane conditions of varying levels of difficulty, and varying levels/types of awards to complement each level. Where would you and your brethren go? Would you automatically sign up for the easiest level and then complain that the awards are poor? Would you step-up to the highest level and a sense of accomplishment over something small (perhaps a clean set)? Would you be somewhere in between?
Let's assume that this were the reality, where would you go? Most of the clamoring for the THS comes from those that claim they are only in it for fun...so if this were the reality, then all of them would stay in the lowest levels of competition (where the shot is the easist and the awards the poorest), right? I have my doubts.
Post by: EagleHunter on April 22, 2008, 12:26:10 AM
As for your comments about bowling elitism...you are 100% correct. I am proud to say that I am one of them.
God forbid that I expect the work and dedication I put into my game to mean something. God forbid that anyone who takes pride in putting 100% into getting better actually want that improvement to mean something. Heaven help the person who works their tail off but always seems to fall a bit short of their goal for getting upset when watching someone throw 12 shots, 12 different ways, on 12 different lines, with 3 nose shots, and 4 brooklyns, with their 170-ish average, while achieving that very goal which seems to be forever out of reach for the one who is actually working to attain it.
Over the long-haul the good bowlers win. That is the way it should be. Accomplishments should not be easy to attain. If they are easy then it is not a sport.
Post by: zerorev on April 22, 2008, 12:37:30 AM
Edited on 4/22/2008 0:38 AM
Post by: Atochabsh on April 22, 2008, 01:22:12 AM
quote:
For someone with your background, I find it funny that you would attempt to make the claim that the THS bowlers run the sport. You may run the Recreation, but you most certainly do not run the SPORT.
Sorry but they do run the sport. They run the sport because of sheer numbers. That's the sheer numbers that sanction in THS leagues vs Sport/PBA leagues. If all the THS leagues were to give up sanctioning, the sport of bowling would quickly die. Like an atom bomb.
Now you have the proprietors also running the sport. And they are concerned with volumne and the $$s brought in. It doesn't matter to them if its THS leagues, Cosmic Bowling, Birthday Parties or Sport Leagues. I think you can imagine where Sport and PBA leagues are on this list of priorities.
This era of bowling could very well be the end of league bowling as the country knows it. Within 5 years, there could be no National body and only local governing bodies with small groups of bowlers in "clubs".
Erin
Post by: EagleHunter on April 22, 2008, 02:25:18 AM
I will also reiterate, since most of you are under the impression that you "run the sport"...if that were true, then YOU are completely responsible for the ridiculous shape our sport is in. Sure there are economic factors, and the like, but YOU masses have apparently been in control of all decision making that relates to the sport. So if you want to take credit for everything, I guess you get the bad as well. After all, it was Joe Bowler at the Conventions who couldn't agree to the "Mustare rule" so the Board had to take action on your behalf. Sure is a good thing there are some people out there looking out for the Sport!
Post by: 302efi on April 22, 2008, 08:49:33 AM
Most of these people screaming "change the game" and want sportshot to replace THS, just can't compete in THS leagues !
You have 3 different levels of adult bowling:
1: THS house leagues
2: Sportshots/PBA exp leagues
3: PBA
When someone says they avg 220-230 on a THS, does that piss you "real bowlers" off ?...Good I hope so.
If the THS has inflated avgs or not, don't cry and complain when you can't score as high as the 10 board area cranker. Get some revs and work on your game so you CAN compete in that situation.
Like I said before, if everyones putting up telephone numbers on a THS, why can't YOU ?...If your so good that you can out avg me on a sprotshot, why can't you beat me on an easy THS !?
As I said, "good bowlers" should not even try to compete on a THS, why they don't carry and the 10 borad area cranker does, don't cry.
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Post by: badnuzjr on April 22, 2008, 08:57:19 AM
--------------------
Bad Nuz is Good News
Post by: Dan Belcher on April 22, 2008, 08:59:30 AM
quote:Most, perhaps. But not all. I can compete on a THS, can win quite a few jackpots, and usually end up with one of the highest averages in any league I bowl in, despite being one of the lower rev guys. And yet I prefer to bowl a tougher shot because I enjoy a challenge and want to be rewarded for rolling the ball well and punished for rolling it poorly. However, not everybody feels that way, which is why I have no problem with leagues have just a typical house shot. People like shooting big scores and like seeing the big hook, and if people like it, they'll continue to bowl. And it's all about keeping bowlers in leagues! I do wish, however, some restrictions were put on house shots and lane inspections were done more regularly. You can have an easier, more bowler-friendly scoring environment without putting out an obscenely huge wall shot.
Most of these people screaming "change the game" and want sportshot to replace THS, just can't compete in THS leagues !
Post by: 302efi on April 22, 2008, 09:06:42 AM
Whenever I head into another center, the outside of 5 is completely dry, so its not even really a challange....it's fun. Bowling should be fun, not a mind burning qustion of which ball to throw or what suface or what line....
Its a GAME after all!
Having said that, I think that the THS gives you a lane that anyone could score on:
~Fluffers can roll it down 5
~Tweener can play their regular 20 to 7-8
~Crankers can swing the lane
Whats really worng with a condition where everyone enjoys and can score ?
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Edited on 4/22/2008 9:14 AM
Post by: Dan Belcher on April 22, 2008, 09:11:57 AM
quote:I guess the problem is then that not every THS is made the same. Some are flooded inside 10, light oil 10 to 5, and bone dry outside 5. Others are medium oil inside 10, bone dry outside 10. Etc., etc., etc. I'd like to see a little less of the bone dry conditions outside as the standard. Yes, leave some friction out there for the fluffers to get something resembling roll, and it'll give the crankers somewhere to bounce the ball back from, but don't have it so wet/dry that you give the tweeners a stupidly over/under reaction like I've seen so often on many house shots around here. A little less friction right might hurt the crankers 5 or even 10 pins a game, but I'm not talking about a huge change. Just enough to even things out a little and put a little more emphasis on repetition and shot making.
Having said that, I think that the THS gives you a lane that anyone could score on:
~Fluffers can roll it down 5
~Tweener can play their regular 20 to 7-8
~Crankers can swing the lane
Whats really worng with a condition where everyone njoys and can score?
Post by: Atochabsh on April 22, 2008, 09:44:50 AM
quote:
, but YOU masses have apparently been in control of all decision making that relates to the sport. So if you want to take credit for everything,
No we have not been in control of all the decision making. When you go to the annual meeting, proposals are voted on etc.....and then USBC tends to just turn around and do whatever they want anyway.
I'm not sure bowling (in our area anyway) is in a poor state. Our centers are full. Most of them from morning till night. Open play is not available week nights until after 9pm and catch as you can on the weekends.
We have community plans for two new centers. One scheduled to open this summer.
What's declining is league bowling and bowler sanctioning. That's what is hurting USBC. Creating a Sport/PBA condition is only one way to try to perk up interest and hopefully some extra bucks in Sport Sanctioning. That extra $15 you pay for sport sanctioning goes 100% to USBC, even though the center or local association provides the tape taking and reading. I'm not really sure what USBC does for Sport/PBA bowling with that extra money. But Sport/PBA bowling can't be the only way to increase participation in overall sanctioned events.
Erin
Post by: zerorev on April 22, 2008, 10:09:14 AM
Post by: n00dlejester on April 22, 2008, 10:15:05 AM
Post by: Jorge300 on April 22, 2008, 10:38:59 AM
quote:
I think its pretty clear now !
Most of these people screaming "change the game" and want sportshot to replace THS, just can't compete in THS leagues !
You have 3 different levels of adult bowling:
1: THS house leagues
2: Sportshots/PBA exp leagues
3: PBA
When someone says they avg 220-230 on a THS, does that piss you "real bowlers" off ?...Good I hope so.
If the THS has inflated avgs or not, don't cry and complain when you can't score as high as the 10 board area cranker. Get some revs and work on your game so you CAN compete in that situation.
Like I said before, if everyones putting up telephone numbers on a THS, why can't YOU ?...If your so good that you can out avg me on a sprotshot, why can't you beat me on an easy THS !?
As I said, "good bowlers" should not even try to compete on a THS, why they don't carry and the 10 borad area cranker does, don't cry.
--------------------
302,
I was reading this over and over again and two questions keeps popping into my head: Are your freaking kidding me? How out of touch with reality are you?
And before you start whining about not being able to keep up, I averaged 230-233 for the last 4-5 years in all my leagues, I do bowl PBA Regionals and have cashed in over half of the ones I've bowled in with a high finish of 3rd. And I don't think, I know that the THS is just too easy.
Does it need to go away, no. THS has it's place, as others have said, for the family fun leagues, the mixed handicap leagues and things like this. But the sport of bowling needs to change. It needs the PBA experience and Sport Shot leagues. But the problem is people are used to averging 200-210 on their easy house china and refuse to realize that their skill level is only a 170-180 average. Name another sport where skills and results are so disparate. They feel you and the others on this thread that are too scared to give your inflated averages and show where your skill level really is. Is there anything wrong with averaging 17-180? NO, not in the least. And for tfav, no one said you need to spend extra time or money practicing. You can bowl your one night a week and average 170-180. The longer you bowl on a Sport shot or PBA experiecne shot your average will start to increase eventually, so be happy with that and enjoy life. The only time you will need to practice is if you think you can get back to the 200-210 THS average in a short amount of time. So there's your trade-off.
And as far as integrity of the game...show me another sport where Joe Citizen can go out and out-perform the professional athletes of that sport? Bowling is the only one. The average bowler on his THS pattern shoots his 200-210 average, and then watches Chris Barnes shoot 160 on TV and thinks "I can beat him". They don't understand the reality of what it took to just get to the TV show, and the difference in the conditions the Pro's face versus the league bowler. No one thinks because they can make a lay-up in the pick-up basketball game that they go one-on-one with Kobe or Lebron do they? No one thinks that if they make a tackle in their backyard football game that they go and sack Brett Favre or Peyton Manning do they? You saying that you don't care about the PBA and it has nothing to do with league bowling shows the closed minded world that you live in. No one is saying you have dedicate your life to this sport, if you want to just do it to have fun, be my guest, but if you do that, you shouldn't be outscoring the professionals that do this for a living.
--------------------
Jorge300
Post by: n00dlejester on April 22, 2008, 10:47:10 AM
Post by: JessN16 on April 22, 2008, 10:53:33 AM
quote:QuoteI think its pretty clear now !
And as far as integrity of the game...show me another sport where Joe Citizen can go out and out-perform the professional athletes of that sport? Bowling is the only one. The average bowler on his THS pattern shoots his 200-210 average, and then watches Chris Barnes shoot 160 on TV and thinks "I can beat him".
This gets posted from time to time and it doesn't need to be, because it is poor logic. Joe Citizen CAN'T go out and out-perform Chris Barnes. Put Joe Citizen on a PBA shot and Barnes would eat his lunch. Put them both on THS and Barnes would still eat his lunch.
As to what Joe Citizen *thinks* he can do, so what? Plenty of people in this world are deluded. There are a lot of folks who think they can sing, and then they go on American Idol and have their dreams shattered. Plenty of people think they can drive NASCAR until you take them to the Richard Petty Driving Experience and they can't follow the chase car at 130 mph without soiling their uniform.
We're supposed to legislate based on what people THINK they can do? Nyet. This goes back to what I said earlier -- if bowlers would quit worrying about what everyone thought of them, and just bowl, we'd be fine. But too many people are apparently bowling to be worshipped or revered, and that's as much a perversion of the sport as bowling on THS is.
Jess
Post by: JessN16 on April 22, 2008, 11:02:39 AM
quote:
Jess,
As for your comments about bowling elitism...you are 100% correct. I am proud to say that I am one of them.
God forbid that I expect the work and dedication I put into my game to mean something. God forbid that anyone who takes pride in putting 100% into getting better actually want that improvement to mean something. Heaven help the person who works their tail off but always seems to fall a bit short of their goal for getting upset when watching someone throw 12 shots, 12 different ways, on 12 different lines, with 3 nose shots, and 4 brooklyns, with their 170-ish average, while achieving that very goal which seems to be forever out of reach for the one who is actually working to attain it.
Over the long-haul the good bowlers win. That is the way it should be. Accomplishments should not be easy to attain. If they are easy then it is not a sport.
First of all, you missed my line that whatever shot you put down out there, I'll still bowl. Quit lumping "me and my brethren" together. I don't need cake to live and I've plainly said a couple of times that averages could be reined in about 10-15 pins or so and not lose a significant number of bowlers.
My argument is purely from the standpoint that if you want to go to sport conditions -- which will drop most averages 30-40 pins -- or limit ball tech, you'll lose a third of your sanctioned bowlers at least, and probably much more than that. When you start talking about losing those kind of numbers, now you are threatening my enjoyment of the sport as a sanctioned bowler because you'll be threatening sanctioned bowling itself. And no matter how much better a bowler than me you are, in terms of USBC membership, you and I both hold one vote and you're no more important to this sport than I am.
If you're going to advocate decisions that would endanger the membership base just so you can feel better about your awards, expect me to fight you every step of the way. What you do on the lanes and what you do off the lanes are completely separate. If you want to make me respect you, don't show me your awards -- show me 10 newcomers you've successfully recruited to leagues. Show me the beginner you agreed to let bowl on your team, or the group of four newcomers you left your old team to join so they could feel comfortable.
Jess
Post by: n00dlejester on April 22, 2008, 11:33:57 AM
Edited on 4/22/2008 11:34 AM
Post by: trash heap on April 22, 2008, 11:46:44 AM
Shooting a 300 or 800 on a PBA shot or THS?
Everyone knows the answer on this board, but not everyone knows that bowls in leagues. An 800 on the THS is an "THS 800". It DOES NOT EQUAL to a Sport Shot or PBA 800. THEY ARE NOT SAME and it SHOULD BE UP TO THE USBC TO LET THEM KNOW! Why do we have keep this thing a secret to the recreational bowler. This kind of stuff you do with a litte kids....NOT ADULTS!
THS should be used for beginners. Anyone that has some skill in bowling should be embarrassed stating that they can score (220, 250, 300 or 700, 750, 800, 900) on an easy shot!! Yeah anyone can do it!! That's the kind of statement that needs to be made.
Look at Golf....I know many golfers who shoot from the white tees when they should be shooting from the Blue. Why? They like to brag how they can get their ball on green in two shots on PAR 5s. They do NOT want a challenge!!!
Post by: n00dlejester on April 22, 2008, 12:20:03 PM
quote:
What's more difficult to do?
Shooting a 300 or 800 on a PBA shot or THS?
Everyone knows the answer on this board, but not everyone knows that bowls in leagues. An 800 on the THS is an "THS 800". It DOES NOT EQUAL to a Sport Shot or PBA 800. THEY ARE NOT SAME and it SHOULD BE UP TO THE USBC TO LET THEM KNOW! Why do we have keep this thing a secret to the recreational bowler. This kind of stuff you do with a litte kids....NOT ADULTS!
THS should be used for beginners. Anyone that has some skill in bowling should be embarrassed stating that they can score (220, 250, 300 or 700, 750, 800, 900) on an easy shot!! Yeah anyone can do it!! That's the kind of statement that needs to be made.
Look at Golf....I know many golfers who shoot from the white tees when they should be shooting from the Blue. Why? They like to brag how they can get their ball on green in two shots on PAR 5s. They do NOT want a challenge!!!
Anybody can do it? Anybody can shoot an 800? You should stop and think about what it is you are really saying. Anybody can average 266.67 for 3 games? Let's drop it down to a 700. Anybody can average 233.34 for 3 games? No, not everybody can. And no, not everybody will either. I'm not sure why so many people are hellbent on saying that a THS is too easy, that there are too many high averages, honor scores, people quitting, etc.
Let's use an example: I have been working diligently on my game for the past 2.5 years or so, building my first true arsenal, working on my form, and being consistent on my repetition in shots. It all paid off last summer when I bowled my one and only three hundred game. I was ecstatic, and felt like a million bucks. Everybody in the league stopped to watch, and they all gave me a congratulatory hand shake and hug, and to top it off my parents and girlfriend were there, all in tears. It was the best feeling I've ever had, and I've never felt anything quite like it since (not yet anyway
). Now I don't know about any of you, but to me, that's what bowling is all about. No, that's what competing is all about: doing your best, every single time, and having fun. Everybody in my leagues think that way also. Some may take bowling more seriously than others, but to get to the point that people are telling others "your honor scores don't count" is just ridiculous. Get off your high horse and get yourself a life. Bowling is a game, games are fun. Games can be taken seriously too, look at horse shoes, softball, darts, billiards, whatever. There's people who play them recreationally, and people who play them competitively. If you think a THS is too easy, go join sport and PBA leagues. If you can't get them, then petition to get them at your local center, don't come on this site and be a jerk about it. If you think leagues are dying b/c a game is too easy, then you my friend, are incredibly out of touch with reality.
Post by: 302efi on April 22, 2008, 12:25:16 PM
quote:
And as far as integrity of the game...show me another sport where Joe Citizen can go out and out-perform the professional athletes of that sport? Bowling is the only one. The average bowler on his THS pattern shoots his 200-210 average, and then watches Chris Barnes shoot 160 on TV and thinks "I can beat him". They don't understand the reality of what it took to just get to the TV show, and the difference in the conditions the Pro's face versus the league bowler. No one thinks because they can make a lay-up in the pick-up basketball game that they go one-on-one with Kobe or Lebron do they? No one thinks that if they make a tackle in their backyard football game that they go and sack Brett Favre or Peyton Manning do they? You saying that you don't care about the PBA and it has nothing to do with league bowling shows the closed minded world that you live in. No one is saying you have dedicate your life to this sport, if you want to just do it to have fun, be my guest, but if you do that, you shouldn't be outscoring the professionals that do this for a living.
The whole paragraph is flawed with the same logic...lol
What does it matter what a bowler thinks ?!?!
What does that have to does with the PBA ?!?!
So according to you, if I want to just play the game of bowling for fun, I SHOULD NOT be out scoring professionals ?! Where did this come from ?
When I played basketball in high-school (varsity year) and I avged around 22 points per game, your sayin I was wrong and I should'ne be higher then alot of NBA players ?!...LOL
You keep saying "sport" of bowling, you CAN'T classify bowling in general as a sport !
League bowling is a fun and entertaining GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sport bowling is ..well..if you wanna call it a sport, go head.
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Post by: mikesxrs on April 22, 2008, 12:28:36 PM
Post by: trash heap on April 22, 2008, 01:21:33 PM
quote:quote:
What's more difficult to do?
Shooting a 300 or 800 on a PBA shot or THS?
Everyone knows the answer on this board, but not everyone knows that bowls in leagues. An 800 on the THS is an "THS 800". It DOES NOT EQUAL to a Sport Shot or PBA 800. THEY ARE NOT SAME and it SHOULD BE UP TO THE USBC TO LET THEM KNOW! Why do we have keep this thing a secret to the recreational bowler. This kind of stuff you do with a litte kids....NOT ADULTS!
THS should be used for beginners. Anyone that has some skill in bowling should be embarrassed stating that they can score (220, 250, 300 or 700, 750, 800, 900) on an easy shot!! Yeah anyone can do it!! That's the kind of statement that needs to be made.
Look at Golf....I know many golfers who shoot from the white tees when they should be shooting from the Blue. Why? They like to brag how they can get their ball on green in two shots on PAR 5s. They do NOT want a challenge!!!
Anybody can do it? Anybody can shoot an 800? You should stop and think about what it is you are really saying. Anybody can average 266.67 for 3 games? Let's drop it down to a 700. Anybody can average 233.34 for 3 games? No, not everybody can. And no, not everybody will either.
My statement is anyone can do it....I DID NOT SAY EVERYONE CAN DO IT! More people shoot honor scores on the THS.
quote:
I'm not sure why so many people are hellbent on saying that a THS is too easy, that there are too many high averages, honor scores, people quitting, etc.
Because it is the truth. It is easy compared to other shots. A "TRUE" THS is easy. You have area...you can have a bad release and get a strike...you can miss your target inside and outside and still get a strike. You can't argue with that!
quote:
Let's use an example: I have been working diligently on my game for the past 2.5 years or so, building my first true arsenal, working on my form, and being consistent on my repetition in shots. It all paid off last summer when I bowled my one and only three hundred game. I was ecstatic, and felt like a million bucks. Everybody in the league stopped to watch, and they all gave me a congratulatory hand shake and hug, and to top it off my parents and girlfriend were there, all in tears. It was the best feeling I've ever had, and I've never felt anything quite like it since (not yet anyway ). Now I don't know about any of you, but to me, that's what bowling is all about. No, that's what competing is all about: doing your best, every single time, and having fun. Everybody in my leagues think that way also. Some may take bowling more seriously than others, but to get to the point that people are telling others "your honor scores don't count" is just ridiculous. Get off your high horse and get yourself a life.
Congratulations! Nice Game! A memory you will never forget!
quote:
Bowling is a game, games are fun. Games can be taken seriously too, look at horse shoes, softball, darts, billiards, whatever. There's people who play them recreationally, and people who play them competitively.
Go ahead and have fun. Enjoy it! I didn't state bowling is not FUN.
quote:
If you think a THS is too easy, go join sport and PBA leagues. If you can't get them, then petition to get them at your local center, don't come on this site and be a jerk about it. If you think leagues are dying b/c a game is too easy, then you my friend, are incredibly out of touch with reality.
I bowl in a Mixed League (THS) with my wife and I have fun. I also enter local tournaments with PBA shots and bowl at PBA Regionals once or twice a year.
Maybe my words were a little strong, but the REALITY is, a THS 300 is NOT the same achievement as a 300 on a tougher shot. More people shoot 300 on THS than any other oil pattern. Look at the statistics over the years. The jump in 300 awards is not because of everyone are better bowlers!!!
We have too many bowlers in LEAGUE thinking they are GREAT cause they carry high averages and shoot high scores. They need a dose of REALITY!! It might be harsh to some but it is the truth!!!
Post by: 302efi on April 22, 2008, 01:26:46 PM
quote:
We have too many bowlers in LEAGUE thinking they are GREAT cause they carry high averages and shoot high scores. They need a dose of REALITY!!
Why do they need a dose of reality ?!
What does it matter ?
Why do you care so much ?...Sounds like your losing sleep over it at night !
May I ask what you avg is in that league vs the people that need a dose of reality ?
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Post by: zerorev on April 22, 2008, 01:40:33 PM
Post by: 302efi on April 22, 2008, 01:56:40 PM
quote:
302 After averaging 22 a game in high school did you think that you could do it in the NBA?
I know I couldnt, I UNDERSTOOD that HS ball vs NBA ball is different.
quote:
You are saying the game is all about fun and just shooting high scores why not just bowl in a fun non sanctioned league?
Find me one non sanctioned league around my area. There is none, nil, zip, nothing.
quote:
hy join a club because that is what the USBC is its a giant club that takes bowling seriously and most BOWLERS get upset when those with very little skill are able to do the same things that those with an immense amount of skill can do?
USBC takes bowling seriously ? Thats a joke, I laughed
So in this game your saying that someone with no skill can match a skilled player and that makes them mad & upset ? Maybe the "skilled" person is not as "skilled" as they think, no ? Shouldnt the skilled person be putting an azz beating on the unskilled ? As easy as most of you make the THS out to be, you guys should be able to 900 every set ?...Remember an unskilled THS bowler still has to make their spares, no ?
quote:
Why bother sanctioning its more money you can spend on beer?
I'm not a big drinker, and see my 2nd qoute for response on the fees ^^^
quote:
You have yet to answer these questions but keep saying "why should we care what the pba does?" and "why should we care about high scores being shot with no skill involved?"
You got it backwards, you still have yet to answer WHY DO SHOULD CARE ABOUT THE PBA ?, I posed the question, but NOONE will answer it...hmm wonder why.
...and what is there to answer about the highsocres being shot, whats the problem ? Bowling is a game and played at different level. THS is a simpler level...I'm not complaining, YOU ARE.
quote:
Just answer why you sanction if its all about fun for you? Why waste the money?
There is no non-sanctioned leagues around me. I wanna have fun and shoot high like everyone else when I go bowl for league. Close my eyes and rip the cover off the ball and send it wide and watch it come screaming back....and in the process get another ring here and there.
When I go bowl a regional or a tourney, I know that it is not the same.
So whats the problem again >?
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Please do not cry that the THS is to easy
Post by: trash heap on April 22, 2008, 01:56:41 PM
Let me rephrase this a little bit. The issue of "GREAT" is because they don't know what they are shooting on. They honestly think they are just a step below PBA level. They don't know how much the oil pattern (and ball) helps them. I blame the USBC and proprietors for this.
Let's just keep them dark.
Why does it matter.....I N T E G R I T Y....that's what makes the SPORT of bowling GREAT!
Post by: 302efi on April 22, 2008, 02:05:12 PM
quote:
The issue of "GREAT" is because they don't know what they are shooting on. They honestly think they are just a step below PBA level. They don't know how much the oil pattern (and ball) helps them
Once again, why does it matter if they dont know what their bowling on ? So what if they don't know the oil pattern !
Why can't paying USBC memebers enjoys the game of bowling as provided by USBC and complying bowling centers ?
quote:
Why does it matter.....I N T E G R I T Y....that's what makes the SPORT of bowling GREAT!
INTEGRITY !?!!? You joking right ? Bowling starting out as a drunk, fat mans game in smoked filled bowling alleys !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Integrity means NOTHING in this game !
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Please do not cry that the THS is to easy
Post by: trash heap on April 22, 2008, 02:11:16 PM
quote:
Bowling starting out as a drunk, fat mans game in smoked filled bowling alleys !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Obviously you do not know the history of this game.
Post by: JessN16 on April 22, 2008, 02:11:17 PM
quote:
Actually NOT losing any sleep over this at all.
Let me rephrase this a little bit. The issue of "GREAT" is because they don't know what they are shooting on. They honestly think they are just a step below PBA level. They don't know how much the oil pattern (and ball) helps them. I blame the USBC and proprietors for this.
Let's just keep them dark.
Why does it matter.....I N T E G R I T Y....that's what makes the SPORT of bowling GREAT!
Seriously...if the real issue is that people don't know enough about the differences between THS and the PBA shots (and I agree they don't), why can't we fix this with an education program instead of having to change the whole system?
I have now asked this same question several times. No one will answer it. If the problem is lack of education, EDUCATE. Don't use a "fix" that doesn't really fix that specific problem.
The USBC has been a terrible educator. Golf courses print their layouts on their scorecards and go into great detail about yardages, how to attack the hole, etc. Apparently, we just assume John Q. Leaguebowler will show up and inherently know the difference.
Then, we blame him for NOT knowing the difference, call him names, run down his game, etc.
There's the problem.
Jess
Post by: Jorge300 on April 22, 2008, 02:11:42 PM
quote:quote:
The issue of "GREAT" is because they don't know what they are shooting on. They honestly think they are just a step below PBA level. They don't know how much the oil pattern (and ball) helps them
Once again, why does it matter if they dont know what their bowling on ? So what if they don't know the oil pattern !
Why can't paying USBC memebers enjoys the game of bowling as provided by USBC and complying bowling centers ?
quote:
Why does it matter.....I N T E G R I T Y....that's what makes the SPORT of bowling GREAT!
INTEGRITY !?!!? You joking right ? Bowling starting out as a drunk, fat mans game in smoked filled bowling alleys !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Integrity means NOTHING in this game !
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Please do not cry that the THS is to easy
The USBC has lost what 2.7 MM members, and the ones we keep are like this loser...what a shame. For since you hate the USBC so much, just stop bowling. Since you can't can't see the idiocy and fallacy of your uberflawed logic,just quit. Then those of us who want to actually improve and want to test our skills and what this to the SPORT it is supposed to be can go on and bowl Sport leagues, and PBA experience leagues and you can sit on your fat @ss, drink, smoke and play with that tiny member you have all night long.
--------------------
Jorge300
Post by: 302efi on April 22, 2008, 02:16:59 PM
Sound like I pissed you off...Personal insults ?
I knew it wouldnt take much longer for you "bowling elites" !!!!
Sportshot cry-babies and whiners at their finest !
"Improve your skills"...ROFLMAO ! Just buy the latest hook monster ans your set!
Also I never said I hate the USBC,,I mean damn they ARE THE ONES that allow the soft THS conditions ! The can't be to bad ! Give me a soft shot, and you bet your azz I'm gonna exploit it !!!!!!!!!
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Please do not cry that the THS is to easy
Edited on 4/22/2008 2:19 PM
Post by: tfav44 on April 22, 2008, 02:21:04 PM
--------------------
tfav44
twisted fury
eraser boost
hot rod super sport pearl
a bad night of bowling is better than a good night at work.
every frame is a opportunity to succeed!
www.virginiabeachtraveltips.com
Post by: trash heap on April 22, 2008, 02:25:22 PM
quote:
Then, we blame him for NOT knowing the difference, call him names, run down his game, etc.
Jess,
Just trying to explain the difference is difficult. People usually get on the defensive right away.
I really think the USBC is going somewhat in the right direction, but it just doesn't make down to the local associations.
In the youth bowling...there is an association south of mine where they are getting it right. They are teaching these kids about tough conditions and encourage them to bowl on them. There are several High School teams also.
My association does nothing for the youth. They just let them bowl 3 games on Saturday and give some pointers. No exposure to the SPORT. Associations like mine are getting left in the DUST.
Post by: Jorge300 on April 22, 2008, 02:28:59 PM
quote:
Jorge300
Sound like I pissed you off...Personal insults ?
I knew it wouldnt take much longer for you "bowling elites" !!!!
Sportshot cry-babies and whiners at their finest !
"Improve your skills"...ROFLMAO ! Just buy the latest hook monster ans your set!
Also I never said I hate the USBC,,I mean damn they ARE THE ONES that allow the soft THS conditions ! The can't be to bad ! Give me a soft shot, and you bet your azz I'm gonna exploit it !!!!!!!!!
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Please do not cry that the THS is to easy
Edited on 4/22/2008 2:19 PM
302, am I pissed off, not in the least, jsut tired of listening to drone on and on about things you seem to no nothing about. And I am by far not a bowling elite, I am a house hack, better then average, but still a house hack. But I have the desire to improve my game, and the fact that whiners and crybaby's like you keep centers from putting in more challenging conditions. I guess you just suck so bad nothing will help you so why let anyone else improve, huh? You are a joke, and people like you who think they are good because they bowl well on the easiest house pattern make me laugh. I bet you average 160-170 at Nationals when you get to a real pattern. But to you that's ok, cause you know you'll get to go home to china and average 210 again. See what you fail to realize is that there is room for both THS and Sport patterns, but you won't allow the Sport patterns in to start with cause it might make you look bad, truth is you don't need that to make you look bad, your posts do a wonderful job of that all on their own.
--------------------
Jorge300
Post by: Jorge300 on April 22, 2008, 02:33:48 PM
quote:
I'm just curious, how old are the sport and pba experience guys . because they seem to alot of time and money to spend bowling. married, kids, careers, homes????ect. and they make it sound like every joker who picks up all ball is shooting 700 or better, week in and week out on the crown pattern (ths). the sport guys should only throw white dots. now there's a challenge.
--------------------
tfav44
twisted fury
eraser boost
hot rod super sport pearl
a bad night of bowling is better than a good night at work.
every frame is a opportunity to succeed!
www.virginiabeachtraveltips.com
Tfav, I am in my late 30's, married with a son. I have a very nice house that I pay on every month and have been with my company 10 years which has taken me from the NE, to the West Coast and now to the South. I have averaged 230+ in every region I bowled over the last 5-6 years and I still know I have much to learn and basically am nothing more then an above average house hack. I want the chance to bowl on SPort conditions to improve my game and get better, even if it means I average 180-190 at the beginning. I am not too proud to have my average drop unlike others on this site who would rather take their overinflated averages along with their overinflated egos and believe they are God's gift to bowling and this site.
And I don't buy every ball that comes out, only the one or two that I know will help my game, fill in gaps in my arsenal, or replace a ball that is worn out.
--------------------
Jorge300
Post by: JessN16 on April 22, 2008, 02:35:16 PM
quote:
Jess,
Just trying to explain the difference is difficult. People usually get on the defensive right away.
I really think the USBC is going somewhat in the right direction, but it just doesn't make down to the local associations.
In the youth bowling...there is an association south of mine where they are getting it right. They are teaching these kids about tough conditions and encourage them to bowl on them. There are several High School teams also.
My association does nothing for the youth. They just let them bowl 3 games on Saturday and give some pointers. No exposure to the SPORT. Associations like mine are getting left in the DUST.
That's the biggest problem the USBC has: Lack of consistent effort on the part of the local associations, which is critical to the success of the organization.
I've said for years that lack of volunteerism is killing the sport. I saw it firsthand when I served as an association president for two years. I had a group of five guys that would walk through fire if I asked it, but no one else did anything, even if asked.
You have to treat bowling like it's church: Face-to-face recruiting is the only thing that works. You also have to be open to splitting up your teams and taking newcomers onto your team so they don't feel overwhelmed. How many times do we put all the newbies together, they get destroyed, and then they quit?
Jorge300 has it right in that there is room for both sport and THS bowling under the USBC umbrella. But there are some in this thread who believe it should be sport only. That simply will not work.
It will also not work if the local USBC groups continue to sit around with their thumbs stuck up their butts.
Jess
Post by: 302efi on April 22, 2008, 02:35:39 PM
I avg 192 on last season PBAX league.
I cashed at my last South-Eastern reg I bowled in
Work isnt going to let me go to nations this year.
You keep saying I'm the reason the centers keep the easy shots, why don't you have USBC change them ?
Tell Brunswick or AMF to soften up the shots in there house and lose money...I'd like to see that one !
I know the difference between where I'm bowling and what I'm bowling on, do you ?
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Please do not cry that the THS is to easy
Post by: Jorge300 on April 22, 2008, 02:47:41 PM
quote:
Thats okay Jorge300 since you didnt bother to read my posts before you jumped in I'll fill you in.
Well excuuuuuuuuse me! Of course not, I can only read so much stuff written like a 5th grader, so most of yours got passed by.
quote:
I avg 192 on last season PBAX league.
Feel good that you have the chance to do that, I don't.
quote:
I cashed at my last South-Eastern reg I bowled in
I have cashed in over 50% of the regionals I have bowled in, so what?!?
quote:
Work isnt going to let me go to nations this year.
/= that's me playing the world's smallest violin for you. I have been there as have many others, I got a new job that allowed me to take vacation and go, you can do that too or quit complaining.
quote:
You keep saying I'm the reason the centers keep the easy shots, why don't you have USBC change them ?
Tell Brunswick or AMF to soften up the shots in there house and lose money...I'd like to see that one !
Yes, you and people like you that complain about the Sport Patterns and PBA Experiecne leagues. The USBC is trying to change it, yet you are complaining about it, you can't have it both ways. Is Sport bowling/PBA experience leagues the saving grace of bowling, no, a lot more has to be done, but it is a start in the right direction. The only reason a house would lose money is because whining babies like you will quit if you can't average 210 anymore, even though your skills are only 180-190 or less.
quote:
I know the difference between where I'm bowling and what I'm bowling on, do you ?
Ummm WTF does that mean???? Another retarded comment from 302, my fault for expecting something more.
--------------------
Jorge300
Post by: strikealot on April 22, 2008, 02:47:53 PM
--------------------
Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now!
myspace profile...
http://www.myspace.com/chad__gordon
http://
GEAUX TIGERS!!! 2 TIME BCS CHAMPS BABY!!!
~<:-)
Post by: 302efi on April 22, 2008, 02:57:27 PM
Thank you USBC for your saving graces of the THS you allow us paying memebers to bowl on !
...and Jorge, as for not going to Nationals, I could care less.
Congrats on your new job, I didnt know Micky D's gave vactions that early after starting?
You know if the military actually gave me paid leave so I could go bowling, that would be your tax money at work and play !
F#cking sport-bowling !!!..You gotta be kidding !
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Please do not cry that the THS is to easy
Edited on 4/22/2008 2:58 PM
Post by: trash heap on April 22, 2008, 03:02:50 PM
quote:
Find me one place where the USBC says that regular house shots lower bowling integrity and your achievements don't measure up.
http://www.bowl.com/sportbowling/whatis.aspx
On USBC Website:
Sport Bowling consists of leagues and tournament that are conducted on challenging lane conditions. The program, in its most basic form, is an opportunity for all bowlers to determine their true skills in such areas as accuracy, consistency, the ability to read lanes, and spare shooting skills to have success rather than rely on today's high-tech equipment or forgiving lane patterns to achieve high honor awards.
It is a level of competition (including the PBA experience leagues) embraced by bowlers who are seeking a greater challenge and to base their level of success directly on their skills.
_______________________________________________________________________________
That pretty much states it!
Post by: zerorev on April 22, 2008, 03:10:01 PM
Post by: Jorge300 on April 22, 2008, 03:11:39 PM
quote:
I'm not complaining at all !
Thank you USBC for your saving graces of the THS you allow us paying memebers to bowl on !
...and Jorge, as for not going to Nationals, I could care less.
Congrats on your new job, I didnt know Micky D's gave vactions that early after starting?
You know if the military actually gave me paid leave so I could go bowling, that would be your tax money at work and play !
F#cking sport-bowling !!!..You gotta be kidding !
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Please do not cry that the THS is to easy
Edited on 4/22/2008 2:58 PM
All you do is complain 302. I figured out what your name stands for 30 = your IQ, 2 = your mental age.
And as far as the my job, I guess you can't read either since I posted to Tfav I have been with my company over 10 years...and as far as McDonald's goes, at least they would hire me, you'd get rejected over and over again.
See again showing I am right with my assessment, you have the brain of of child.....keep the comments coming, its fun to show everyone just how unintelligent you are....not that's it hard you do most of it on your own, but fun nonetheless.
--------------------
Jorge300
Post by: 302efi on April 22, 2008, 03:19:19 PM
So if theres a winner and loser in all this, I win
THS still dominates USBC leagues and "sport" bowling is just a mere shadow.
When I shoot the next 300, prob next week, on the last shot I'll just close my eyes and say this ones for good ole' Jorge
Good luck and good bowling !
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: strikealot on April 22, 2008, 03:23:19 PM
--------------------
Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now!
myspace profile...
http://www.myspace.com/chad__gordon
http://
GEAUX TIGERS!!! 2 TIME BCS CHAMPS BABY!!!
~<:-)
Post by: Jorge300 on April 22, 2008, 03:26:24 PM
quote:
All your "intelligent" posts, do nothing. YOU can't change where bowling is at and all you can do type out your furstation.
So if theres a winner and loser in all this, I win
THS still dominates USBC leagues and "sport" bowling is just a mere shadow.
When I shoot the next 300, prob next week, on the last shot I'll just close my eyes and say this ones for good ole' Jorge
Good luck and good bowling !
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Nope you are and always will be a loser....nuff said.
Oh by the way, a 300 series isn't anything to get all that worked up over, but I guess when we are talking you, it is pretty good, keep trying, you'll get that series total up soon.
--------------------
Jorge300
Post by: 302efi on April 22, 2008, 03:26:45 PM
I bowl on what the USBC allows to be bowled on, no ?
The USBC is the over-seeing body of all this, so where am I in the wrong ? They(USBC) mandates the shot, am I wrong for bowling on it ?
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: another300 on April 22, 2008, 03:28:11 PM
. I see both sides to this and being a long time bowler, I do take the side of the tougher conditions. It is "discouraging" to have someone bowl against you in scratch league on THS conditions and not only beat you but also have a higher average yet they have only been bowling for 3-4 years.
I'm for USBC making ALL houses go to Sport or PBAX conditions but I know this will not happen so I have been watching and learning to "spray and pray". I no longer compete in all these tournament or go to regionals so truthfully why pay the extra to bowl a tougher conditions? Then come winter, all houses will put out their china shot.
If anything, I would truly like to see any league that considers or calls their league a scratch league, to actually put down Sport or PBAX conditions.
Then we will see how good these 200+ spray and pray bowlers really are.
Post by: 302efi on April 22, 2008, 03:31:25 PM
quote:
keep trying, you'll get that series total up soon.
So with 11 800 series, your high is only 817 ?
Wow, the THS provided me with a real nice 852
Sucks for you
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: Jorge300 on April 22, 2008, 03:35:29 PM
quote:quote:
keep trying, you'll get that series total up soon.
So with 11 800 series, your high is only 817 ?
Wow, the THS provided me with a real nice 852
Sucks for you
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
No it doesn't actually cause over half of those have come on tournament conditions....unliek you who can't bowl on anything but the easiest of the easy and still can only shoot 850, what a loser you are.....geez.
And I see you didn't mention the 300 games, so I assume I have your @ss kicked in that regard too?!? And again I have a large portion of those off of THS patterns. Another thing you can't say.
What is really funny, well no it's actually sad, is that you think you are sooo good, doing this on a THS easy china pattern. ROFLMAO, that is just too much. You actually think you are a good bowler.......well whatever allows you to sleep at night, and boosts your ego to compensate for that tiny little manhood between your legs.
--------------------
Jorge300
Post by: 302efi on April 22, 2008, 03:41:05 PM
I figured you were gonna say all your honor scores were on tourney conditions, lol. I hope someone informed your ABT scores are a joke.
As I said before, enjoy this wonderful, but simple game of bowling !
Good luck and good bowling once again
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: strikealot on April 22, 2008, 03:41:36 PM
quote:
strikealot, wheres the ignorance ?
I bowl on what the USBC allows to be bowled on, no ?
The USBC is the over-seeing body of all this, so where am I in the wrong ? They(USBC) mandates the shot, am I wrong for bowling on it ?
yes you bowl on whats allowed if you are talking about the tough THS...your not wrong in that reguard...just wrong in talking about sport shots...the usbc over-sees these too...but you are just to good and dont want to deflate that nice ego you have built for yourself while bowling on your tough THS...but continue to stroke your ego for you may be the best THS bowler in the world in your eyes..
--------------------
Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now!
myspace profile...
http://www.myspace.com/chad__gordon
http://
GEAUX TIGERS!!! 2 TIME BCS CHAMPS BABY!!!
~<:-)
Post by: 302efi on April 22, 2008, 03:49:00 PM
quote:
yes you bowl on whats allowed if you are talking about the tough THS...your not wrong in that reguard...just wrong in talking about sport shots...the usbc over-sees these too...but you are just to good and dont want to deflate that nice ego you have built for yourself while bowling on your tough THS...but continue to stroke your ego for you may be the best THS bowler in the world in your eyes..
Well then if the THS is all that avalible until summer, what should I do ? Throw gear that I know dont score as well ? Then thats sandbagging, correct ?
So we should start a sport shot league and have 4 people show up for the whole thing again ? Or maybe drive 200 miles upsate every week to find a "tougher" shot ?
I bowl on whats avalible and use gear I can score with. Inflate my avg ? yeah the THS prob does that, but I'm ok with it, I know where I stand when I bowl a tourney ect...
Best THS bowler ?, Nah the PBA PRO Jeff Carter already has that spot
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: Jorge300 on April 22, 2008, 03:50:19 PM
quote:
I didnt post 300 games because your Greatness discredited them ...You remember, right ?
I figured you were gonna say all your honor scores were on tourney conditions, lol. I hope someone informed your ABT scores are a joke.
As I said before, enjoy this wonderful, but simple game of bowling !
Good luck and good bowling once again
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Never heard of the ABT, is that something for people like you?!?
Bowling isn't a game it's a sport, that the first problem you have. Once you realize that.....oh wait too much info for someone of your meager intellect, sorry, bet you have headache now. I discredited your 300 series that you were posting about....just about anyone can bowl a 300 game on an easy pattern, even someone as bad as you. What really amazes me is still how you think you are good, it oozes out of your posts, along with the drool you left on the keyboard. Someday you'll realize how bad you really are, I just hope someone from these forums are there to witness it, so they can tell everyone about it. That would be classic.
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Jorge300
Post by: Jorge300 on April 22, 2008, 03:53:00 PM
quote:quote:
yes you bowl on whats allowed if you are talking about the tough THS...your not wrong in that reguard...just wrong in talking about sport shots...the usbc over-sees these too...but you are just to good and dont want to deflate that nice ego you have built for yourself while bowling on your tough THS...but continue to stroke your ego for you may be the best THS bowler in the world in your eyes..
Well then if the THS is all that avalible until summer, what should I do ? Throw gear that I know dont score as well ? Then thats sandbagging, correct ?
So we should start a sport shot league and have 4 people show up for the whole thing again ? Or maybe drive 200 miles upsate every week to find a "tougher" shot ?
I bowl on whats avalible and use gear I can score with. Inflate my avg ? yeah the THS prob does that, but I'm ok with it, I know where I stand when I bowl a tourney ect...
Best THS bowler ?, Nah the PBA PRO Jeff Carter already has that spot
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Why go to a tournament.....you can't win bowling only on easy as pie THS. Real bowlers will blow you away especially with your self-admitted overinflated average to go along with your overinflated head. Well I guess you like giving your money away, it would fit with the profile you are creating of not being very smart.
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Jorge300
Post by: strikealot on April 22, 2008, 03:57:52 PM
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Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now!
myspace profile...
http://www.myspace.com/chad__gordon
http://
GEAUX TIGERS!!! 2 TIME BCS CHAMPS BABY!!!
~<:-)
Post by: 302efi on April 22, 2008, 03:58:26 PM
quote:
Bowling isn't a game it's a sport,
Thats your OPINION, show me facts on that please.
quote:
I discredited your 300 game that you were posting about....
Please read again, I said my "next" (keyword)...which will most likly be this coming Monday
quote:
What really amazes me is still how you think you are good, it oozes out of your posts
Where do I think I'm good or say that I am ? I'm not the one with my bowling credentials posted in my profile, you are. So whos the one showing off or trying to prove something ?
Serious question, no bashing (although its fun):
Whats really worng with bowling on the shot provided ? Should someone not take advantage of it ?
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 4/22/2008 4:00 PM
Post by: strikealot on April 22, 2008, 04:09:15 PM
quote:
Whats really worng with bowling on the shot provided ? Should someone not take advantage of it ?
why dont you use this logic with sport bowling...
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Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now!
myspace profile...
http://www.myspace.com/chad__gordon
http://
GEAUX TIGERS!!! 2 TIME BCS CHAMPS BABY!!!
~<:-)
Post by: 302efi on April 22, 2008, 04:09:19 PM
quote:
Why go to a tournament.....you can't win bowling only on easy as pie THS. Real bowlers will blow you away especially with your self-admitted overinflated average to go along with your overinflated head. Well I guess you like giving your money away, it would fit with the profile you are creating of not being very smart.
I would put up some cash saying I would take your money.
You don't what I have accomplished in bowling...Not that bowlings that big of deal. Its only a game for recreation and fun. Not sure why your all hard up over it ?
Doesnt the THS overinflate everyones avg that bowls on it ?
Does Jeff Carter avg 260+ tour ?
Whenever you bowl on THS (you'll say you never do), doesnt your avg go up >?
Whats wrong with admitting that ,since we all know its true ?
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: 302efi on April 22, 2008, 04:14:38 PM
quote:
why dont you use this logic with sport bowling...
Same thing, a strighter player will have the advantage in the earlier games, where abouts the more power player type would gain some advantage in the later games.
Same difference.
Depending on whos all bowling (righty/lefty) and what lines their playing and what gear their using, my general idea ^^ would/will change.
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: strikealot on April 22, 2008, 04:20:07 PM
--------------------
Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now!
myspace profile...
http://www.myspace.com/chad__gordon
http://
GEAUX TIGERS!!! 2 TIME BCS CHAMPS BABY!!!
~<:-)
Post by: 302efi on April 22, 2008, 04:25:27 PM
If my local center does the PBA league again I beleive its going to be trios and add handicap this time
I will do it again if they do. The did a package last year for a Fury and your choice of Power Groove.
It was actually pretty fun, but the patterns did play a little on the Heavy side due to the fresh syn lanes installed about 2 week before the league started.
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 4/22/2008 4:25 PM
Post by: strikealot on April 22, 2008, 04:30:21 PM
--------------------
Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now!
myspace profile...
http://www.myspace.com/chad__gordon
http://
GEAUX TIGERS!!! 2 TIME BCS CHAMPS BABY!!!
~<:-)
Post by: strikealot on April 22, 2008, 07:35:29 PM
--------------------
Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now!
myspace profile...
http://www.myspace.com/chad__gordon
http://
GEAUX TIGERS!!! 2 TIME BCS CHAMPS BABY!!!
~<:-)
Post by: 302efi on April 22, 2008, 07:40:48 PM
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: Jorge300 on April 23, 2008, 07:34:00 AM
quote:quote:
Why go to a tournament.....you can't win bowling only on easy as pie THS. Real bowlers will blow you away especially with your self-admitted overinflated average to go along with your overinflated head. Well I guess you like giving your money away, it would fit with the profile you are creating of not being very smart.
I would put up some cash saying I would take your money.
You don't what I have accomplished in bowling...Not that bowlings that big of deal. Its only a game for recreation and fun. Not sure why your all hard up over it ?
Doesnt the THS overinflate everyones avg that bowls on it ?
Does Jeff Carter avg 260+ tour ?
Whenever you bowl on THS (you'll say you never do), doesnt your avg go up >?
Whats wrong with admitting that ,since we all know its true ?
--------------------quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
You couldn't take my money even if I gave it to you. You are a joke and not worth the time or the energy to speak with. You can't even write a sentence, you have the mentality and the social skills of an infant and the brains to match. I wish you bowled in tournaments in my area, then I could come and watch and laugh at you. The only F**king joke here is you, and everyone knows it.
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Jorge300
Post by: 302efi on April 23, 2008, 07:39:27 AM
1 .Doesnt the THS overinflate everyones avg that bowls on it ?
2. Does Jeff Carter avg 260+ tour ?
3.Whenever you bowl on THS (you'll say you never do), doesnt your avg go up >?
4. Whats wrong with admitting that ,since we all know its true ?
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: Jorge300 on April 23, 2008, 10:43:48 AM
quote:
Well then how about atleast a couple answers to these questions you just pass over ?
1 .Doesnt the THS overinflate everyones avg that bowls on it ?
Never said it didn't, so what's your point besides the one on top of your head?
2. Does Jeff Carter avg 260+ tour ?
No one does, that's point of having tougher conditions for those who want it.
3.Whenever you bowl on THS (you'll say you never do), doesnt your avg go up >?
Does my average go up in comparison to what? To the Shark pattern, yes. To another PBA pattern, maybe not, to a sports condition, again maybe, maybe not, depends on the actual condition.
4. Whats wrong with admitting that ,since we all know its true ?
Admitting what, your a maroon who doesn't deserve the time of day? You've got an overinflated ego from bowling on conditions so easy a 10 yr old can throw a 300 on it? Your too dumb to realize no one is saying to totally get rid of the THS, just to offer a more challenging condition to those who actually want to get better at a sport they love? Or admit that you really have no clue about bowling in general? I will admit that all the above are true. Happy now?!?
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Jorge300
Edited on 4/23/2008 10:47 AM
Post by: Krakken on April 23, 2008, 11:51:16 AM
My THS is not hard, but it sure isn't easy. and most of the THS patters i have bowled on are not easy, but they aren't PBA or sport conditions.
People comparing THS with Sport an PBA conditions are way off. Like comparing Agustan National greens to your local muni, for the pros it would be a cakewalk, for the average joes, not too hard, not overly easy.
Stop putting down people and their accomplishments. That is what is helping destroy the game. If you are too good for a THS, then don't bowl on it. But don't put others down for it.
Post by: Jorge300 on April 23, 2008, 12:03:15 PM
quote:
For all of you idiots that cry a THS is too easy, I hope you average better than a 700 each night. Otherwise you are some lousy bowlers.
My THS is not hard, but it sure isn't easy. and most of the THS patters i have bowled on are not easy, but they aren't PBA or sport conditions.
People comparing THS with Sport an PBA conditions are way off. Like comparing Agustan National greens to your local muni, for the pros it would be a cakewalk, for the average joes, not too hard, not overly easy.
Stop putting down people and their accomplishments. That is what is helping destroy the game. If you are too good for a THS, then don't bowl on it. But don't put others down for it.
I will assume this is directed partially at me. Why is it that all you people see it as an all or nothing proposition. No one, at least not me, have said to get rid of THS totally. It has it's palce and granted it ranges from the ubereasy to the almost challenging. What we are saying is, we need to get people to support the Sport Pattern and PBA Experience leagues as well. This give those that want to improve an opportunity to do so, to get better at the sport they love. Right now, must of us have limited to no way to do this. The problem is people like 302 and others come on here and call Sport conditions a joke and complain and whine and BS their way around the topic. And the main reason why is they are scared that people will see they aren't that good of a bowler if they actually have to execute every shot. They are scared people will see the really are a 170-180 average bowlers and not the 200-210 they portray on a THS.
By the way, I average 699/night is that close enough for you?!?
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Jorge300
Post by: zerorev on April 23, 2008, 12:05:16 PM
Edited on 4/23/2008 12:06 PM
Post by: n00dlejester on April 23, 2008, 01:16:26 PM
Post by: Sportskraz on April 23, 2008, 01:27:47 PM
quote:
Why should we always try to revert what the game "used to be?" Let's try to move forward and figure out the future of this game/sport/whatever you people want to call it. The person who mentioned the marketing of the PBA Experience leagues hit the nail on the head. If you go out there and promote sport/PBA leagues, people will join. Then we can go there, and for all you who are worried, your 200's mean something there. Or will we end up saying, "But it doesn't play like a regional/tour shot! It was easier, and we didn't switch pairs, so it almost doesn't count."
This is exactly the mindset of a person who just does not get it. THINK ABOUT IT! Have you ever been in a situation where bowling actually meant something? Back in the day, it did and that is what we are striving for. I wake up everyday wishing bowling was more like the 80's where people would wake up and bowl. You might say something people people are getting better or maybe being more proactive about their bowling skills but that is just hogwashed. I think we are all just lack inner strengh to tackle this problem head on
Post by: trash heap on April 23, 2008, 06:08:15 PM
quote:
For all of you idiots that cry a THS is too easy, I hope you average better than a 700 each night. Otherwise you are some lousy bowlers.
My THS is not hard, but it sure isn't easy. and most of the THS patters i have bowled on are not easy, but they aren't PBA or sport conditions.
People comparing THS with Sport an PBA conditions are way off. Like comparing Agustan National greens to your local muni, for the pros it would be a cakewalk, for the average joes, not too hard, not overly easy.
Your 3rd paragraph is all that I am trying suggest. We have a lot of bowlers thinking a "THS 300" or "THS 700" is the same achievement as a "Sport 300" or "Sport 700". THS is different. There are more challenges to be made (You have not achieved everything bowling has to offer).
quote:
Stop putting down people and their accomplishments. That is what is helping destroy the game. If you are too good for a THS, then don't bowl on it. But don't put others down for it.
I am not stating to put anyone down on their accomplishment. They need to put in perspective. All of you against me on this think I am putting them down but that is not my intention. As Jess stated earlier post "bowlers need to be educated!".
Anyone who has bowled a 300 game or 800 series on a THS. Congratulations!!! Welcome to the Bowlers Hall of Fame. But don't get it in your head that its the same as SPORT or PBA. Yes it has element of challenge but it has been reduced or made easier.
Is that the problem....the word "easy". Do we need to come up with a better word so we don't offend you with the truth?
What if the USBC was to give 300 and 800 awards for NO TAP. It is an accomplishment to bowl these.....right? There would be some bowlers averaging 260+. Getting the same awards. Lets give 300 rings to everyone for their high score games and series in NO TAP.
NO TAP is obvious (A single pin standing...STRIKE!!). THS is invisible to most bowlers. They have NO CLUE what you are talking about.
Example: There is a guy that subs for my team in our mixed league. Hasn't bowled in weeks. Doesn't practice. Probably has bowled a total of 12 games all season. With a 140 something average...last week bowls a 245 game.
Great for us! We crushed the other team. Hard for the other team to make up 100 pins just from one bowler on our team.
Was he on for the night?....Nope!....He was all over the place....maybe had two strikes in row that looked like the same throw......Did I say anything to him?....Nope!.....Just congratulated him on his performance. If did say something it would not have been received well, because he doesn't know what I would be talking about.
Bowling is something that should be tough. That's why hate bumpers for kids. Its all about score and making them feel better instead of work hard and improve.
When there are so many high scores shot....they don't mean anything. It used to be something to watch someone bowl a 300. The league would get quiet...everyone wanted to see perfection.
That doesn't happen too much anymore. Why is that? Because it has been done so many times before. It's not as special. Congratulations are given but the place doesn't erupted into cheers like it used to. That's sad.
Look at the garbage in New York with the whole 900 series! That should be enough to say "Okay! We had our fun, now let's get this game back on the right track." The PBA did it after the 90's.
Post by: williewc on April 23, 2008, 08:21:59 PM
quote:
It is "discouraging" to have someone bowl against you in scratch league on THS conditions and not only beat you but also have a higher average yet they have only been bowling for 3-4 years.
im not taking any sides in this, but its easily possible for someone that has only been bowling for 3-4 years come in a average higher than someone bowling 25 years, not problem at all really
i know when i used to play pool after about 2 years i could beat 90% of the pool players around, people that had been shooting pool for 15-20 years couldnt come close to beating me, hell i was spotting them the 7 playing 9 ball, them with their $1200 pool stick and me playing with a $30 stick
but i put alot of time in to get better, but honestly i didnt play much more than they did, i was just better at pool than they were, some people are just naturals at a certain thing and can do what others can in a very short time where it took them years and years to get there
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Proud member of the Track Legion
Tag Team Coaching Success Story
Post by: 302efi on April 23, 2008, 09:10:25 PM
You are correct, those were the good times
The one thing that I don't agree with fully is this:
quote:
Bowling is something that should be tough.
How about you have defined levels and shots ? Something like:
~House leagues and mixed leagues keep your general THS.
~Sport shots and PBA/PBA leagues continue to be tough.
What I'm not sure on is how you would go about changing the attitudes of the house league bowlers. Would you wanna post a disclaimer on the score sheet everynight ? Or have it read out loud at the league meeting ?
The reason you can;t just dump the THS shot and leagues all together, is when people bowl bad they are going to quit. I think thats the reason why USBC can't just do away with it (THS) all together.
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 4/23/2008 9:11 PM
Post by: EagleHunter on April 23, 2008, 09:37:46 PM
It seems like the entry count for Nationals goes up every year, despite the rising costs incurred to get there. And the condition there? The VAST majority of bowlers at Nationals shoot scores that probably range 15-40 pins less then their alledged average...yet they come back year after year.
I know, I know...it's only for the travel and vacation, right? Well if that were the case why wouldn't those bowlers DEMAND that USBC make it a THS so they can more fun while they are out there? Seems like some of you would be happy with that very situation.
That said, I am looking for the return of bowling as a SPORT. Back to when 3858 meant not something, but everything. What does it mean now? It still means something to some of us, but most seem to have forgotten...and that is the sad state of the sport.
Post by: zerorev on April 23, 2008, 09:46:51 PM
Very Good Point Eagle
Post by: 302efi on April 23, 2008, 09:56:18 PM
How many total USBC league bowlers are there ?
How many of them go to Nationals ?
If there is big difference in the numbers, then you have a problem.
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: EagleHunter on April 23, 2008, 10:15:44 PM
USBC membership has been declining yearly.
Participation in USBC Nationals has been increasing yearly.
In my area, our Local Association tournament is a THS (2384 currently leading scratch AE) and participation has been decreasing for awhile now. And the percentage of participants vs. members is quite disparate.
Post by: TDC57 on April 23, 2008, 10:41:13 PM
Enter resin, particle, dynamic cores, etc. and the game agained changed. This very high friction equipment created the need for more oil and led eventually to walled shots. The predicament bowling is in was not created by proprietors putting out easy shots. It started with pro soaking balls in solvents in order to create higher scores. It followed with ball companies making softer ewuipment in order to create higher scores. It led to more oil on the lanes to keep the balls from hooking off the lanes which in turn made ball companies create wild weight blocks in which smart ball drillers set up balls to over power the lanes no matter what condition was laid out. Then bowlers started leaving the game in droves for reasons that were not bowling related and everybody got on their soap boxes giving varying reasons why this was happening. The proprietors then trying to save their business started making it easier to score and in many cases too easy. Scores went nuts and some bowlers carried averages higher than their ability should allow. This hacked off guys who had put in time honing their games for higher levels of competition. They never quit chirping and want the game toughened up to bring these high scoring clowns back to earth. This, if it happens, will cause a further loss of bowlers. WHAT A VICIOUS CIRCLE.
The walled shot did not cause any of the problems bowling is in. The bowlers who put in their time becoming expert bowlers still win the lion's share of of all tournament money but they still aren't happy. They want those damn THS bowler's averages down where they belong. This would give the THS bowlers higher handicaps and a better chance to win more tournament money which would really pizz off the expert bowlers and make them wish for a new change that would eliminate those hack bowlers entirely. Oh what a tangled web we weave!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: zerorev on April 23, 2008, 10:55:36 PM
Post by: TDC57 on April 23, 2008, 11:10:56 PM
One thing you must remember is that the USBC stats on the dropoff of bowlers is not really correct. They count lost sanctions from each league. The fact is the majority of this loss is the guy that goes from 4 leagues a week to one. The USBC counts this a 3 bowler loss when in fact it is not. It's just there are many less multi-league bowlers as there were in the 70s, 80s and 90s.
Edited on 4/23/2008 11:24 PM
Post by: EagleHunter on April 23, 2008, 11:23:27 PM
I would argue that most of those members that have left were "fringe" members; those that were only members because their leagues didn't give them a choice. As I have said before, real bowlers will continue to bowl (barring only injury or family commitments). If you could easily give up the sport, or the game, then you "like to bowl" but are not a bowler.
Post by: JessN16 on April 23, 2008, 11:26:30 PM
quote:
My reply to that is simple...
USBC membership has been declining yearly.
Participation in USBC Nationals has been increasing yearly.
Everyone likes a big-time challenge every now and then but not every time they shoe up.
I played golf for years and was part of a traveling group that would play a different course just about every week. I'd say once a month, we'd make it a point to play a real ballbuster -- I live in Alabama, and we have the famous Robert Trent Jones Golf Trail, and any course on it will humble anyone. But we didn't play that every week. Usually, we played one cake course, one super-tough course and a couple of courses in the middle each month.
I wish all state tournaments would be contested on a tough shot, perhaps even a sport-compliant one. The Nationals should absolutely be contested on a tough shot. From talking to some of my state tournament teammates last week, it sounds like the Nationals shot may have been easier than it should have been.
But there's a difference between special occasions and your weekly league, and weekly leagues should not be forced into sport conditions, period. Several people I've talked to who went to Nationals this year said the allure of the tournament was almost completely the specialness of it; they had very little desire otherwise to trek 2,000+ miles.
Jess
Post by: 302efi on April 23, 2008, 11:27:00 PM
The part that really should open people eyes are:
quote:
(pros soaking their bowling balls in solvents to get some friction on the lanes)
Most the "truests" say that the "real" bowlers didn't have any advantages beside their skill back in bowlings hey days!
What about putting weights in balls ?. I remember seeing some balls actually wobble going down the lane..lol
If old school bowlers looked and found ways to make the game easier and score higher, how can they complain about the THS now !
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 4/23/2008 11:32 PM
Post by: zerorev on April 23, 2008, 11:27:48 PM
Post by: zerorev on April 23, 2008, 11:31:23 PM
Post by: TDC57 on April 23, 2008, 11:37:31 PM
zerorev, I could not agree with you more. League shots should not be super easy, they should reward you if you throw the ball correctly and penalize if you don't. From my experience, that condition will still have guys averaging very high.
Edited on 4/23/2008 11:40 PM
Post by: zerorev on April 23, 2008, 11:47:06 PM
Edited on 4/23/2008 11:49 PM
Post by: TDC57 on April 23, 2008, 11:59:35 PM
Edited on 4/24/2008 0:12 AM
Post by: zerorev on April 24, 2008, 12:12:56 AM
Post by: n00dlejester on April 24, 2008, 05:32:27 AM
And sure there may be less sanctioned bowlers or less multiple league bowlers, but those who have stuck around are probably much more enthusiastic about the game. All the guys who left were recreational bowlers who moved on. And I think by promoting the PBA Experience leagues at houses where available, the difference between THS and PBA patterns will become known and that knowledge will spread. It's going to be a slow process, but growth and education always is.
Edited on 4/24/2008 5:34 AM
Post by: Krakken on April 24, 2008, 07:32:55 AM
quote:quote:
For all of you idiots that cry a THS is too easy, I hope you average better than a 700 each night. Otherwise you are some lousy bowlers.
My THS is not hard, but it sure isn't easy. and most of the THS patters i have bowled on are not easy, but they aren't PBA or sport conditions.
People comparing THS with Sport an PBA conditions are way off. Like comparing Agustan National greens to your local muni, for the pros it would be a cakewalk, for the average joes, not too hard, not overly easy.
Your 3rd paragraph is all that I am trying suggest. We have a lot of bowlers thinking a "THS 300" or "THS 700" is the same achievement as a "Sport 300" or "Sport 700". THS is different. There are more challenges to be made (You have not achieved everything bowling has to offer).quote:
Stop putting down people and their accomplishments. That is what is helping destroy the game. If you are too good for a THS, then don't bowl on it. But don't put others down for it.
I am not stating to put anyone down on their accomplishment. They need to put in perspective. All of you against me on this think I am putting them down but that is not my intention. As Jess stated earlier post "bowlers need to be educated!".
Anyone who has bowled a 300 game or 800 series on a THS. Congratulations!!! Welcome to the Bowlers Hall of Fame. But don't get it in your head that its the same as SPORT or PBA. Yes it has element of challenge but it has been reduced or made easier.
Is that the problem....the word "easy". Do we need to come up with a better word so we don't offend you with the truth?
What if the USBC was to give 300 and 800 awards for NO TAP. It is an accomplishment to bowl these.....right? There would be some bowlers averaging 260+. Getting the same awards. Lets give 300 rings to everyone for their high score games and series in NO TAP.
NO TAP is obvious (A single pin standing...STRIKE!!). THS is invisible to most bowlers. They have NO CLUE what you are talking about.
Example: There is a guy that subs for my team in our mixed league. Hasn't bowled in weeks. Doesn't practice. Probably has bowled a total of 12 games all season. With a 140 something average...last week bowls a 245 game.
Great for us! We crushed the other team. Hard for the other team to make up 100 pins just from one bowler on our team.
Was he on for the night?....Nope!....He was all over the place....maybe had two strikes in row that looked like the same throw......Did I say anything to him?....Nope!.....Just congratulated him on his performance. If did say something it would not have been received well, because he doesn't know what I would be talking about.
Bowling is something that should be tough. That's why hate bumpers for kids. Its all about score and making them feel better instead of work hard and improve.
When there are so many high scores shot....they don't mean anything. It used to be something to watch someone bowl a 300. The league would get quiet...everyone wanted to see perfection.
That doesn't happen too much anymore. Why is that? Because it has been done so many times before. It's not as special. Congratulations are given but the place doesn't erupted into cheers like it used to. That's sad.
Look at the garbage in New York with the whole 900 series! That should be enough to say "Okay! We had our fun, now let's get this game back on the right track." The PBA did it after the 90's.
If you know that your honor scores on a PBA pattern are better than theirs, then why do you feel the need to down them? That is one of the biggest problems is bowling today. Sport bowlers (most, but not all) think they are better than the house guy. Why? because he doesn't want to bowl on the Sport shot? He might be able to kick your butt on a Sport shot, but jsut doesn't want to deal wioth the EGOs in the Sport league (and there are a lot being shown on this board).
Let people who want to just bowl THS leagues and think they are on par with the PBA guys think that. Who does it hurt? (and dont' say the sport, because downing them hurts the sport more) When people start looking down their noses at the league guys who have 4 and 5 honor scores a year and bashing them, it hurts the game. May make you feel better about yourself, but if you need that then you need to take a look inside at you.
Why do we need to fix the game because one house puts out a cakewalk shot that one guy shoots a 900 on? Why does it bother you so much? If you are a sport bowler, then you know your 700 on a soprt shot is better than a THS 900, and so do the bowlers that bowl in Sport leagues.
And Jorge, great you avg 233 on a THS. It still doesn't man it is too easy for eveyone, Instead of trying to make the game change to fit you, stop bowling THS leagues and just bowl sport and PBA Ex. Then you don't have to deal wit the house guys.
Post by: Jorge300 on April 24, 2008, 07:44:57 AM
quote:
And Jorge, great you avg 233 on a THS. It still doesn't man it is too easy for eveyone, Instead of trying to make the game change to fit you, stop bowling THS leagues and just bowl sport and PBA Ex. Then you don't have to deal wit the house guys.
If you read through these 8 pages now, you see I'm not trying to make the game fit me, people are trying to find a way to grow the SPORT of bowling, which seems lost on a few you. Football is a game, but it is also a SPORT. Same for bowling. For those that want to enjoy the game of bowling, join a mixed league bowl on your THS shot, go Cosmic bowling and have fun. But some of us would like to enjoy the SPORT of bowling which means there needs to be some challenge there.
And I would love nothing more then to bowl a Sport league or a PBA Experience league, but there are none in my area. So I have no choice. And just so you know, even with my 233 average, I know I suck, how many of you can say the same?!?
--------------------
Jorge300
Post by: n00dlejester on April 24, 2008, 07:53:18 AM
But I'm hoping as time goes, this organization will grow.
Post by: EagleHunter on April 24, 2008, 09:00:26 AM
Who does it hurt if people don't know the difference? That level of ignorance is the problem with this discussion, and my main issue with those who continue to support the status quo (THS).
As long as I know the difference, it shouldn't matter what anyone else thinks, right?
Well if "Joe Average Bowler" doesn't know the difference, then it is quite obvious that "Joe Public Non-Bowler" doesn't know the difference either. If bowling cannot gain any recognition within its own ranks, it will never garner any outside of them. Most of you seem to ask "why does that matter?"
My boys are part of "The First Tee" program. Last year National City Bank donated $300,000 to the local chapter to help support the program and grow the sport of golf. I'm quite sure that this is not an unusual thing for golf programs, or possibly for Little League or other such sports. How much money do bowling programs get?
Without support from outside the industry there is ZERO hope to grow the sport, and no industry is going to donate their excess income to a game. Once bowling can gain widespread recognition as a sport (which will take time), perhaps organizations will see the possibilities for involvement within the sport and start donating dollars for bowling programs. Learn to bowl programs, educational programs, programs for various levels of competition, etc., all of this hinges on bowling gaining recognition as a sport.
And as long as ANYONE can even think that "Joe Average Bowler" is on par with the Professionals, none of this will EVER occur. That is what USBC is tasked with correcting. If the THS goes away and some bowlers leave with it, perhaps that is a good thing SHORT-TERM...but only if the LONG-TERM gain described above will be recognized. There is absolutely no guarantee that this would occur, but fear cannot be our guide.
Post by: tfav44 on April 24, 2008, 10:26:04 AM
--------------------
tfav44
twisted fury
eraser boost
hot rod super sport pearl
a bad night of bowling is better than a good night at work.
every frame is a opportunity to succeed!
www.virginiabeachtraveltips.com
Post by: 302efi on April 24, 2008, 11:12:29 AM
quote:
Who does it hurt if people don't know the difference? That level of ignorance is the problem with this discussion, and my main issue with those who continue to support the status quo (THS).
Well then how do you suggest we seperate the houe league bowlers, amateurs & PBA pros ?
I think you would agree that the difficulty should get easier the lower you go, correct ?
Just like in other sports take Football for instance:
Highschool > Collage > NFL
How about baseball:
Highschool > Collage > MLB
As the levels increase, so does the difficulty.
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 4/24/2008 11:30 AM
Post by: rvmark on April 24, 2008, 11:17:29 AM
I am just a mediocre bowler that has only been bowling for the past 5 years (no I did not sky rocket to the 200+ average in 2 years, I still have not reached it today). I bowl in 2 leagues and have to travel 45 miles to find a house that with leagues availble. I hope to bowl in a sport or pba league this summer as I feel it will help with my spare shooting, my biggest weakness some weeks not focusing enough on the easy spares.
The one thing that I do find almost laughable is that people that really love the sport or game of bowling continually griping with one another. Bowlers need to find a way to accept both the accomplished and the not so accomplished bowlers for the sport to continue to grow. Bowlers looking for more of a challenge will migrate to sport or PBA leagues, bowlers that are content with bowling on THS should continue to bowl in their normal leagues (this does not make them a bad bowler, they just may not have the time or desire to try the tougher shot).
Given the options and tolerance we can grow both the typical league and sport bowling participation.
Edited on 4/24/2008 11:19 AM
Post by: n00dlejester on April 24, 2008, 11:32:51 AM
quote:
Wow is there ever a division of thoughts in this board, one side feeling like the elite bowlers look down on them and the other side looking for more challenge.
I am just a mediocre bowler that has only been bowling for the past 5 years (no I did not sky rocket to the 200+ average in 2 years, I still have not reached it today). I bowl in 2 leagues and have to travel 45 miles to find a house that with leagues availble. I hope to bowl in a sport or pba league this summer as I feel it will help with my spare shooting, my biggest weakness some weeks not focusing enough on the easy spares.
The one thing that I do find almost laughable is that people that really love the sport or game of bowling continually griping with one another. Bowlers need to find a way to accept both the accomplished and the not so accomplished bowlers for the sport to continue to grow. Bowlers looking for more of a challenge will migrate to sport or PBA leagues, bowlers that are content with bowling on THS should continue to bowl in their normal leagues (this does not make them a bad bowler, they just may not have the time or desire to try the tougher shot).
Given the options and tolerance we can grow both the typical league and sport bowling participation.
Edited on 4/24/2008 11:19 AM
How dare you respond with logic! You're not supposed to do that, ever. Tsk tsk: how un-American of you.
Post by: EagleHunter on April 24, 2008, 11:54:50 AM
Sorry but that analogy is ludicrous. In all of those examples, you can have various levels of skill on the same field, and the result...in most cases the more talented players win.
Good high school teams play bad high school teams on the same field, and the bad teams get killed. Good college teams play bad college teams on the same field, and the bad teams get killed. Good professional teams play bad professional teams on the same field, and the bad teams get killed. Barring typcially unusual circumstances, the good teams win every time.
PBA guys bowl normal leagues with us amateurs and some average in the 225-240 range, yet they are out-averaged by other bowlers in their league. Does that mean that those individuals are better than the PBA player? Probably not, but on the same field the less talented player wins.
There have been all types of comments from PBA players about how they are out-averaged in leagues when they bowl at home or during the summer. So are the PBA bowlers not that good? Are those beating them that good? Or is something wrong that on the same playing field the more talented individual gets beat over the long-haul?
Post by: EagleHunter on April 24, 2008, 11:58:07 AM
Many have already tried your suggestion and have scored equally well in doing so. That is because they are good bowlers. The problem with the suggestion though is that while some would consider it a challenge, the MOMENT an individual has a bad night, someone like 302 will accuse them of sandbagging.
That opens a completely different problem.
Post by: n00dlejester on April 24, 2008, 12:01:31 PM
Edited on 4/24/2008 12:03 PM
Post by: 302efi on April 24, 2008, 12:17:51 PM
quote:
tfav,
Many have already tried your suggestion and have scored equally well in doing so. That is because they are good bowlers. The problem with the suggestion though is that while some would consider it a challenge, the MOMENT an individual has a bad night, someone like 302 will accuse them of sandbagging.
That opens a completely different problem.
No I wouldnt at all. If they continue to use the same gear they established their avg with, have at it ! Whatever makes the games fun for the people playing
If I had to give a PBA Pro sticks because he is using plastic or old gear, thats fine. The minute he breaks out the new age resin, then thats bagging, no ?
Everyone has bad games and shots, for instance the PBA PRO Chris Barnes went Brooklyn and won what? $150,000 ? You've seen PBA guys on TV shot 150's ?
People have good and nights.
Also, if most of the PBA guys have the attitude that THS sucks and the THS bowlers due as well, WHY WOULD THEY EVEN BOWL in a house league ?
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 4/24/2008 12:18 PM
Edited on 4/24/2008 12:20 PM
Post by: trash heap on April 24, 2008, 12:33:07 PM
quote:
What I'm not sure on is how you would go about changing the attitudes of the house league bowlers. Would you wanna post a disclaimer on the score sheet everynight ? Or have it read out loud at the league meeting ?
The reason you can;t just dump the THS shot and leagues all together, is when people bowl bad they are going to quit. I think that the reason why USBC can't just do away with it (THS) all together.
I agree with NOT getting rid of THS all together. But it needs to be less. A THS Shot should be for FUN leauges (Mixed and Leagues not so serious, I am not sure why keep score if it is not serious (That's another topic)).
I used to bowl in a Men's league on Monday nights. EVERY YEAR the meeting to discuss league rule changes there was more complaining and whining about handicap. There are guys that think someone is getting an advantage. You would think someone was cheating how they stated it)....(Its Low Average vs. High Average Again, that's another topic). I am sure that this happens else where.
This is the kind of league that needs the tougher pattern.
They complain but when an solution is put on the table...they shoot it down...because they like their high scores. They say its NOT serious until they think they have been cheated!! So next year the same the same thing happens. An endless cycle.
They want the prize. They want it to be fair!
But try to implement an oil pattern where the best bowlers are recognized and the best rise to the top (regardless of average)....
NO....NO...NO!
"Don't take my 200 average or my one 700 series of the year away from me. We are not serious about it."
Well you are serious about it at the end of the year!
Edited on 4/24/2008 12:34 PM
Post by: trash heap on April 24, 2008, 12:41:37 PM
Shooting High Scores.
Is that the only way you can have FUN in bowling?
If you don't shoot a 280, 250, 230, or 220...then you are not having fun. That does not make sense to me.
Its NOT us wanting the Sport condition that have the EGO issue it is YOU!
Post by: TheGame300 on April 24, 2008, 12:50:14 PM
On the US Open pattern using my real equipment and moving all over the place, I shot a 430.
That should tell you all you need to know right there.
--------------------
It's all about J.A.C.C
Just A Carry Contest
Why is there more oil in the parking lot then on the lanes I bowl on?
Bowl To Win.
Post by: JessN16 on April 24, 2008, 12:58:21 PM
quote:
And as long as ANYONE can even think that "Joe Average Bowler" is on par with the Professionals, none of this will EVER occur. That is what USBC is tasked with correcting. If the THS goes away and some bowlers leave with it, perhaps that is a good thing SHORT-TERM...but only if the LONG-TERM gain described above will be recognized. There is absolutely no guarantee that this would occur, but fear cannot be our guide.
EagleHunter,
My suggestion right now is to chill out. If you're trying to change how people think outside the sport of bowling, you're going to die a very bitter person.
This sport has never enjoyed the level of public respect afforded golf, and when you sign up to be a bowler you agree to accept that. And I'm not even talking about scoring pace issues; we still fight the stereotype of being a bunch of boozed-up, fat, bald factory workers toiling away in a cigarette smoke-filled barn. That stereotype has been alive and well for 100 years, and no one has fixed it even when scoring conditions were cruddy for everyone.
If you are looking to bowling for personal edification, you are searching in the wrong place. You posts indicate that you seem to look to external loci for confirmation of whether you are or aren't a good bowler, and that's not necessary. You're way too concerned with using your talents to garner respect.
And, you're setting up a strawman argument, anyway. This is barely about whether anyone outside or inside bowling thinks amateurs are good as the pros. It's much more about league bowlers bowling on a condition that allows them the opportunity to shoot high numbers.
And even if they do, welcome to life. There are some supremely popular sports out there (golf, NASCAR) where some of the general public mistakenly thinks they're as good as the players. You can't legislate based on that kind of thing.
Jess
Post by: JessN16 on April 24, 2008, 01:07:53 PM
quote:
For all you that are bowling for FUN.
Shooting High Scores.
Is that the only way you can have FUN in bowling?
If you don't shoot a 280, 250, 230, or 220...then you are not having fun. That does not make sense to me.
Its NOT us wanting the Sport condition that have the EGO issue it is YOU!
Once again, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
* You can toughen up a league THS without making it a sport shot.
* I don't know too many people who need to shoot 700 a night to have fun but they need to shoot better than 450 (see the post directly below yours; I don't know if that guy had fun but 90 percent of league bowlers I know would not).
* There's ego on both sides and if you won't admit that, you're not being honest. The two biggest jerks in my leagues by far are the guys that are good sport-level bowlers and are constantly rubbing it in people's faces. We had someone shoot 279 a couple of weeks back at the other end of the house and the center announced it over the intercom, and Mr. Sport, who was bowling on my pair, says in a fairly loud voice, "there's another meaningless piece of s*** score." What a great representative of the sport the guy is...
Jess
Post by: TDC57 on April 24, 2008, 01:14:25 PM
If bowling on a shot and shooting 430 is how you believe we should grow the sport of bowling then you must not be very smart. Nobody wants to shoot those score unless your brain isn't wired quite right. There are shots that are not soft than allow good scores but require shot making ability. If any person on this board thinks we need to start shooting 450-550 to save the game you have been hitting the bong a little too often!!
Post by: Jorge300 on April 24, 2008, 01:26:55 PM
quote:quote:
For all you that are bowling for FUN.
Shooting High Scores.
Is that the only way you can have FUN in bowling?
If you don't shoot a 280, 250, 230, or 220...then you are not having fun. That does not make sense to me.
Its NOT us wanting the Sport condition that have the EGO issue it is YOU!
Once again, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
* You can toughen up a league THS without making it a sport shot.
* I don't know too many people who need to shoot 700 a night to have fun but they need to shoot better than 450 (see the post directly below yours; I don't know if that guy had fun but 90 percent of league bowlers I know would not).
* There's ego on both sides and if you won't admit that, you're not being honest. The two biggest jerks in my leagues by far are the guys that are good sport-level bowlers and are constantly rubbing it in people's faces. We had someone shoot 279 a couple of weeks back at the other end of the house and the center announced it over the intercom, and Mr. Sport, who was bowling on my pair, says in a fairly loud voice, "there's another meaningless piece of s*** score." What a great representative of the sport the guy is...
Jess
So because your house has two Azzholes, sport bowling is bad for everyone?!?
You also talk aboutlookin to others for satisfaction.....well that is true of everyone by default because everyone's average in your league is listed on the standings sheet each week, so everyone is being compared against everyone in the league. But my personal satisfaction comes not from my total at the end of the night but from when I look back over my 3 games and can say I hit my mark consistently, hit my breakpoint consistently, released the ball well, etc. But it also frustrated the hell out of me when I look back and see I didn't do any of those rather well for a night and look at my series and see 715-720-730. That becomes a joke when you know you bowled bad and yet you are rewarded with an above average score. On nights I throw the ball bad, I should shoot 550-560. And that is the motivation to improve the next week so I can get back to where I belong.
And its not about shooting 700 to have fun, but it's people who have raised their average 15-20-25 pins because of a small increase in skill and a large increase in the ease of the conditions. I leave out the increase in ball technology because that is available to everyone. And these aren't you 225-235 average bowlers, they are the 190-210 average bowlers. If they bowled on a condition, even a tougher THS condition, their average drops back down to close to their skill level and they get pissed and complain, and whine, and b!tch about how the shoot is too tough, etc. They actually believe they are a good a bowler as their THS average indicates. I know I am not a 233 average bowler on a "real" shot. I want to be, but how can I when people like you and 302 are out here calling Sport bowling a joke? Hell, 302 even has it in his signature. That's the real problem, you don't see that it's not an all or nothing proposition. If the USBC pushes Sport bowling and PBA experience leagues, it's not saying get rid of the THS shot. It doesn't have to promote a THS league as strongly because there are already more then enough people to fill those, usually (admittedly this varies by region). So it promotes the new idea, the idea that you can see how good you really are. Problem is most people don't want to know how good they "really' are and are just happy being as good as they "think" they are.
--------------------
Jorge300
Post by: TheGame300 on April 24, 2008, 01:27:27 PM
quote:
The Game 300,
If bowling on a shot and shooting 430 is how you believe we should grow the sport of bowling then you must not be very smart. Nobody wants to shoot those score unless your brain isn't wired quite right. There are shots that are not soft than allow good scores but require shot making ability. If any person on this board thinks we need to start shooting 450-550 to save the game you have been hitting the bong a little too often!!
There were guys that could shoot 500-600 on it but you had to actually make quality shots to strike and make your spares, that is my point. We have PBA members in the league and they average from 195-210 so far for the year. There THS averages are in the 225-240 range. My average so far for the 1st shift is 209 and my PBA exp. average is 173. So that shows me how much I really suck and definitely brings you down to earth.
If people want to just got out and shoot high scores on easier patterns, then good for them. Just don't brag about it and think you are better then god unless you are willing to back it up on a tougher condition.
I do believe however that the US Open pattern is a little to extreme and sent from the devil.
--------------------
It's all about J.A.C.C
Just A Carry Contest
Why is there more oil in the parking lot then on the lanes I bowl on?
Bowl To Win.
Post by: Jorge300 on April 24, 2008, 01:27:58 PM
quote:
The Game 300,
If bowling on a shot and shooting 430 is how you believe we should grow the sport of bowling then you must not be very smart. Nobody wants to shoot those score unless your brain isn't wired quite right. There are shots that are not soft than allow good scores but require shot making ability. If any person on this board thinks we need to start shooting 450-550 to save the game you have been hitting the bong a little too often!!
But shooting 750 with your eyes closed is going to save the game?!? Keep drinking that Kool-Aid and see where it takes you.
--------------------
Jorge300
Post by: JessN16 on April 24, 2008, 01:36:31 PM
First of all, I'm not calling sport bowling "a joke." That's between you and 302efi.
What I am saying is that it is not for everyone, and certainly not for anyone who has either just the money or the time to bowl once a week -- which because of changes in our society and our economy, is happening more and more.
My firsthand experiences with sport-level bowlers do not diminish the sport bowling experience itself; however, I have had a lot more bad experiences with those types than I do with inflated-head THS addicts who think they're as good as the pros. Given the choice of who to be locked up in a room with, I would probably pick the THS guy because while he might be delusional, at least he's not bitter.
If you're going to respond to my posts, do me the favor of actually reading them, please. I've bowled on PBAX, sport and/or tough shots for most of my bowling life -- including 8 years of league bowling at a house that laid out a totally gutter-to-gutter flat shot because of its old-school owner's preferences. I have come to realize that one size is not going to fit all in this sport. Sport bowling has its place, but it's not going to be default setting for all leagues, nor should it be.
Jess
Post by: trash heap on April 24, 2008, 01:37:43 PM
I see 160 and 170 average bowlers on THS right now have 200 some game then tank the other two games.
Post by: TheGame300 on April 24, 2008, 01:45:45 PM
quote:
Jorge300,
First of all, I'm not calling sport bowling "a joke." That's between you and 302efi.
What I am saying is that it is not for everyone, and certainly not for anyone who has either just the money or the time to bowl once a week -- which because of changes in our society and our economy, is happening more and more.
My firsthand experiences with sport-level bowlers do not diminish the sport bowling experience itself; however, I have had a lot more bad experiences with those types than I do with inflated-head THS addicts who think they're as good as the pros. Given the choice of who to be locked up in a room with, I would probably pick the THS guy because while he might be delusional, at least he's not bitter.
If you're going to respond to my posts, do me the favor of actually reading them, please. I've bowled on PBAX, sport and/or tough shots for most of my bowling life -- including 8 years of league bowling at a house that laid out a totally gutter-to-gutter flat shot because of its old-school owner's preferences. I have come to realize that one size is not going to fit all in this sport. Sport bowling has its place, but it's not going to be default setting for all leagues, nor should it be.
Jess
I totally agree with you on that point. That is why I can not compete with the people in my league. This is the only night of the week I bowl and the 1st shift I am subbing for someone for most of the year. I see these guys come in with a new ball almost every night and they practice after the league is over and on Sunday nights when the house puts out the shot. I just don't have the time or the money for that.
I have problems with the person who bowls in 3 or more regular leagues, averages 220 and thinks they are the greatest thing since sliced bread, but once you mention a sport shot or tougher house shot, they run like a thief in the night.
Take our county tournament this year. Last year the house put out a really tough shot and the scores were low so 1/2 the people complained and the other 1/2 loved it. So this year the house that has it put out an easy shot and there were 5 800's and like 10 300's. And this is a relatively small county. It was ridiculous.
--------------------
It's all about J.A.C.C
Just A Carry Contest
Why is there more oil in the parking lot then on the lanes I bowl on?
Bowl To Win.
Post by: rvmark on April 24, 2008, 02:12:00 PM
quote:
Jorge300,
First of all, I'm not calling sport bowling "a joke." That's between you and 302efi.
What I am saying is that it is not for everyone, and certainly not for anyone who has either just the money or the time to bowl once a week -- which because of changes in our society and our economy, is happening more and more.
My firsthand experiences with sport-level bowlers do not diminish the sport bowling experience itself; however, I have had a lot more bad experiences with those types than I do with inflated-head THS addicts who think they're as good as the pros. Given the choice of who to be locked up in a room with, I would probably pick the THS guy because while he might be delusional, at least he's not bitter.
If you're going to respond to my posts, do me the favor of actually reading them, please. I've bowled on PBAX, sport and/or tough shots for most of my bowling life -- including 8 years of league bowling at a house that laid out a totally gutter-to-gutter flat shot because of its old-school owner's preferences. I have come to realize that one size is not going to fit all in this sport. Sport bowling has its place, but it's not going to be default setting for all leagues, nor should it be.
Jess
Well said Jess, I agree that one size or pattern is not going to fit all bowlers.
Our house changes the shot every 5-6 weeks during our league, so we do not bowl on the same shot the whole season. We do not hear alot of grumbling when it changes most teams just adapt and move on. Our house must be the exception to the norm from listening to everyone here because out of the 22-5 man teams on Thursday night this year we had only one 300 game shot and the highest average was 215. For the year we only had 4-300 games shot in the house so not everyone has been able to shoot the easy 300. I was present twice this year when people shot 300 and you could have heard a pin drop both nights (32 lanes in the house), so there is evidentally some respect left in some bowling centers.
Edited on 4/24/2008 2:12 PM
Post by: JessN16 on April 24, 2008, 02:16:51 PM
quote:
Well said Jess, I agree that one size or pattern is not going to fit all bowlers.
Our house changes the shot every 5-6 weeks during our league, so we do not bowl on the same shot the whole season. We do not hear alot of grumbling when it changes most teams just adapt and move on. Our house must be the exception to the norm from listening to everyone here because out of the 22-5 man teams on Thursday night this year we had only one 300 game shot and the highest average was 215. For the year we only had 4-300 games shot in the house so not everyone has been able to shoot the easy 300. I was present twice this year when people shot 300 and you could have heard a pin drop both nights (32 lanes in the house), so there is evidentally some respect left in some bowling centers.
Edited on 4/24/2008 2:12 PM
Same at my house. High average on the league right now is 210, there are about 6-7 others over 200, you have a cluster around 180-190 and then it drops off from there. We also have a shot that rotates (same pattern laterally, but five different lengths) from time to time.
We've had one or two 300s this year, no 800s, a couple of 290s and a bunch of 270x stuff but on both 300s this year the place sounded like a stadium.
Jess
Post by: n00dlejester on April 24, 2008, 02:47:15 PM
Post by: Krakken on April 24, 2008, 02:48:42 PM
quote:quote:
And Jorge, great you avg 233 on a THS. It still doesn't man it is too easy for eveyone, Instead of trying to make the game change to fit you, stop bowling THS leagues and just bowl sport and PBA Ex. Then you don't have to deal wit the house guys.
If you read through these 8 pages now, you see I'm not trying to make the game fit me, people are trying to find a way to grow the SPORT of bowling, which seems lost on a few you. Football is a game, but it is also a SPORT. Same for bowling. For those that want to enjoy the game of bowling, join a mixed league bowl on your THS shot, go Cosmic bowling and have fun. But some of us would like to enjoy the SPORT of bowling which means there needs to be some challenge there.
And I would love nothing more then to bowl a Sport league or a PBA Experience league, but there are none in my area. So I have no choice. And just so you know, even with my 233 average, I know I suck, how many of you can say the same?!?
--------------------
Jorge300
If you avg 233 then you don't suck. Yo uprobably won't be able to compete wit hthe PBA Tour Pros o ntheir shot, but not many people on here can.
You are trying to make the game fit you. By downing everyone's accomplishments on a THS just because you find it easy, and saying the things you have been saying here, you want THS scores to hae an asterisk for the lack of a better term. Your attitude here says to me in your eyes "if it isn't a sport shot, it ain't nothin" That is one of the many reasons people don't step up and try Sport leagues, too many people like that.
Technology has made all sports easier, and will continue to do so. For that I say, if you think a THS is too easy, then down't bowl on it, in your case, you should beating the streets trying to get PBA Ex leagues in your area. IF you still can't, the least you can do is not put down THS and the bowlers that choose to bowl on it. And by saying it is too easy, you are putting it and the bowlers down.
Post by: 302efi on April 24, 2008, 03:06:10 PM
quote:
I know I am not a 233 average bowler on a "real" shot. I want to be, but how can I when people like you and 302 are out here calling Sport bowling a joke? Hell, 302 even has it in his signature
What does my signature (newly founded I may add) have to due with you ability or determantion to avg well on "real" shot ?
Your just looking excuses and rationalizations.
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: another300 on April 24, 2008, 03:22:52 PM
After averaging 195 or higher for three year you could then apply for your PBA card and bowl with the pro's.
On THS houses that is not possible. Well you can average 200 for 3 years and apply for your PBA card. But once you get out there, pay $300 entry fee and bowl your 150 average, you will be upset. You will not be willing to pay $300 for practice on those conditions every week now would you?
THS has it's place in bowling, higher scores mean more fun. It draws more people to want to bowl. A 300 on THS is still an achievement, it's just not equivalent to a 300 shot by a pro or someone bowling on Sport or PBA conditions.
Jorge and others are being modest by saying they are not good bowlers. It still takes a certain skill to achieve a 230+ average on THS conditions. What he and several others(including myself) are saying is, I want to challenge myself on the same conditions the PRO's play on. I want to see how I rate. I want to practice and bowl on these conditions because if i want to pursue bowling regionals then maybe going further, I know pretty much where I stand.
Post by: JessN16 on April 24, 2008, 03:36:49 PM
quote:
Some people just don't get it. Bowling in any USBC house "back in the day" meant you were bowling on similar conditions as the PRO's were. You could somewhat monitor your achievements and progress. You could watch them on Saturday's on ABC and see that it took a 205(or whatever that week) average to make the cut. You could then say, you know I have worked hard on my game and feel I might be able to compete against them.
After averaging 195 or higher for three year you could then apply for your PBA card and bowl with the pro's.
On THS houses that is not possible. Well you can average 200 for 3 years and apply for your PBA card. But once you get out there, pay $300 entry fee and bowl your 150 average, you will be upset. You will not be willing to pay $300 for practice on those conditions every week now would you?
THS has it's place in bowling, higher scores mean more fun. It draws more people to want to bowl. A 300 on THS is still an achievement, it's just not equivalent to a 300 shot by a pro or someone bowling on Sport or PBA conditions.
Jorge and others are being modest by saying they are not good bowlers. It still takes a certain skill to achieve a 230+ average on THS conditions. What he and several others(including myself) are saying is, I want to challenge myself on the same conditions the PRO's play on. I want to see how I rate. I want to practice and bowl on these conditions because if i want to pursue bowling regionals then maybe going further, I know pretty much where I stand.
That's fine, and if demand is sufficient for sport/PBAX leagues in your area, they should be offered.
However, there's that word again, "IF." Because bowling depends on private enterprise (i.e., the bowling center) to function, consumer demand is what is going to drive the decision to offer PBAX or not.
There is a difference between petitioning a bowling center to add PBAX (commendable) and petitioning the USBC to buck the preferences of 90%+ of the bowling base and force sport conditions on all league bowlers (not commendable), which is what EagleHunter wants to see happen.
I'll tell you how we got PBAX where I lived in Tennessee: We asked for it. A bunch of bowlers went to the center managers and told them if they'd lay down PBAX shots, we'd give them a league. We ended up with 17 3-man teams at the start of the league and finished with 14 teams, as three of them dropped out when they couldn't score.
Where I live now, I would love to have PBAX. Unfortunately, my current job requires me to work nights three times a week and leaves me just two nights available for bowling, and PBAX isn't offered on either night. So I'm on THS whether I want to or not.
Jess
Post by: WSUstroker on April 24, 2008, 03:40:17 PM
http://www.absolutebowling.com/forums/uploaded/24_1209069572.jpg
--------------------
Dan Chambers
www.absolutebowling.com
Post by: TDC57 on April 24, 2008, 03:45:11 PM
Any bowler can shoot 300. Lanes don't play into that at all. 150 avg. bowlers have been doing it forever. These guys do not shoot 800s. These guys gladly let you take their money at every turn, but if they luck out and have a 300, boy you get hosed off about it. Who are you guys and where did you snobs come from? Why do you even bowl in these leagues with the soft shots anyway. Why submit yourself to such agony? Your better than that, find the other elitists and form your own leagues where you can beat your heads against the wall every night but can go home satisfied you did it admirably. Quit bowling in the tournaments those schmucks with those inflated averages do. Those inflated averages they bring with them giving you every edge possible has to diminish your enjoyment when you get your prize money check. Tell the USBC to just ban these clowns and have the BPAA provide membership to them if they want a sanctioning body. Tell the USBC we don't need them to survive. We elitists will bring enough ego and savvy to the organization that our hot air alone will keep the ship afloat. That is how to grow the sport!!
Post by: txbowler on April 24, 2008, 03:49:04 PM
So I can understand his frustration. He appears to be thinking that by mandating sport conditions for certain types of league, then he'll have the opportunity to bowl on that condition.
I don't see that happening.
As for the PBA. It has been my opinion for several years that they need to raise the qualification average to 210 or 215. 200 is just not the right standard anymore. But they will not do that. Why? They want all the $$$ from dues that they can get. By raising their standard for memebership, they would turn away $$$.
The UBSC is going to do what is best for the majority of its membership. And that 2/3's majority averages below 190 even on today's easy THS.
Post by: nospareball on April 24, 2008, 04:02:45 PM
quote:
I have seen guys average 210-220 and bowl once a week and not throw a ball during the summer. I take these guys with me to numerous tournaments at many different houses. I take them to our State tournament which has went to a tougher sport type shot for D and S and a less difficult shot for the team event. These same once a week bowlers tear it up on both shots. Could someone please explain how they do this or is it possible some guys are just very good bowlers and a lack of practicing does not affect them?
zerorev, I could not agree with you more. League shots should not be super easy, they should reward you if you throw the ball correctly and penalize if you don't. From my experience, that condition will still have guys averaging very high.
Edited on 4/23/2008 11:40 PM
This is pretty much spot on with my observations over the years. You can generally pick out the guys that have the skills to be a good bowler, whether it be on a THS or a Tourney shot. Those guys may not average 220 or 230 but you can tell that they have it even if they don't practice or take the game as seriously as some of the other guys.
Where the disconnect occurs (on a THS at least) is when you have the guys who practice all of the time, work on their game, average higher than these casual skilled bowlers but still get beat by them when it counts. Then you have these more serious bowlers complaining that the conditions are too easy, or the balls too advanced, and feel that they are entitled to win against these guys because they work harder and take the game more seriously. What you end up with is elitist bowlers who think that they are entitled to win.
Lets face it, bowling has always been a game of skill and LUCK! How many times have you gone through the nose, or crossed over, or missed the pocket all together and ended up with a strike or an easy leave? Or if you bury the pocket and leave an 8 pin when the game is on the line? But we only seem to remember when these sorts of shots happen against us. You can't really blame the other guy, or the ball or the oil pattern for stuff like that, it's all in the game, crap happens.
--------------------
-Clint
Post by: 302efi on April 24, 2008, 04:14:57 PM
quote:
I only got about halfway through this thread, but my general observations...
http://www.absolutebowling.com/forums/uploaded/24_1209069572.jpg
--------------------
Dan Chambers
www.absolutebowling.com
I do have alot of little fishes in this thread, don't I ?
Why not fish where the fishing is GOOD !
Good observations
!--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 4/24/2008 4:44 PM
Post by: another300 on April 24, 2008, 04:48:31 PM
quote:
I will repeat, I have been bowling in men's leagues for 36 years and have been taking care of our local lanes for 26. I believe I've learned a few things about the industry during that time. First, if you think easy lanes are the answer, you are wrong. If you think tough sport shots are the answer, YOU ARE A MORON!!!! The industry is in a fragile state, and if the answer was simple the brain trusts at the USBC would have found it by now. Jorge, climb into the real world and quit being an elitist (you guys are ruining this sport). This game was created for recreation. It evolved into many different layers. The top bowlers of yesteryear were not the holier than now guys who having been piping off on this subject over the last few days. Many of today's top bowlers have now become such snobs that if anyone shoots a high score and are not the quality bowler they are, it shouldn't be taken seriously. Get over yourselves! This game is still dominated in numbers by the average joe bowler. They pay your way at every turn. You take their money in leagues, you take their money at tournaments and yet you want them to bow down and kiss your feet because you have put more into your game than them and they damn well better not shoot a 300 game or honor count of any kind unless it's on a difficult shot.
Any bowler can shoot 300. Lanes don't play into that at all. 150 avg. bowlers have been doing it forever. These guys do not shoot 800s. These guys gladly let you take their money at every turn, but if they luck out and have a 300, boy you get hosed off about it. Who are you guys and where did you snobs come from? Why do you even bowl in these leagues with the soft shots anyway. Why submit yourself to such agony? Your better than that, find the other elitists and form your own leagues where you can beat your heads against the wall every night but can go home satisfied you did it admirably. Quit bowling in the tournaments those schmucks with those inflated averages do. Those inflated averages they bring with them giving you every edge possible has to diminish your enjoyment when you get your prize money check. Tell the USBC to just ban these clowns and have the BPAA provide membership to them if they want a sanctioning body. Tell the USBC we don't need them to survive. We elitists will bring enough ego and savvy to the organization that our hot air alone will keep the ship afloat. That is how to grow the sport!!
36 years and you still dont get it Tony C? Sounds like you are bitter because you yourself having bowled for 36 years but have not shot a 300 or 800 series.
Post by: TDC57 on April 24, 2008, 07:49:11 PM
What kind of knuckle dragger are you? You read my post and that's your take? I'm bitter because I have no 300 or 800? Does that define a person's bowling ability. Listen moron, how you came to that conclusion is a mystery to any normal thinking person. 36 years of bowling and I don't get what? Don't just make a statement and think we can read your mind. I bowl because I enjoy the game. I don't look down on anybody and believe me I been in situations when I could have. Elitists seem to be rampant on this site and they are plain and simple why the game of bowling is in decline. It's not high scoring lane conditions, it loud mouth pontificators beating their chests incessantly over guys that should not concern them, who are driving people away from the game. The elitists of the world are the ones who live in the minority. They have fewer friends who are real friends. I'll stick to my average joe bowler friends who I can count on for anything. Those are the guys that built this game, not the others. I have shot 300 and 800 in non-sanctioned bowling. IT DIDN'T MAKE ME FEEL ANY DIFFERENT!!!!
Post by: tenpin477 on April 24, 2008, 08:03:54 PM
Your right, sport bowling is not for everybody, its for the people who take bowling seriously, they don't treat it as a "game" or as a night out, they treat it as a sport, in the same way baseball players treat baseball, and hockey players treat hockey.
While you certaintly cannot completely do away with THS leagues, its simply suicide to the house owner, I do feel that sport bowling should be more available to the people who want it.
I know im nothing special when it comes to bowling, although with some good practice I think I could be, but I very rarely get the opportunity to bowl on some tough shots. There are no fall PBAX or Sport leagues in my area. There are a few over the summer in houses that are not too far away, but in the fall there are none, and very few tournaments utilize sport patterns.
You cannot do away with the THS, but to say that Sport Bowling is stupid is just as ignorant.
Post by: JessN16 on April 24, 2008, 08:41:58 PM
quote:
To put into perspective what a THS can do for you, I had a kid I bowl with on Saturday mornings this year shoot a 268 his first game, and then continue on to shoot a 550 set.
Your right, sport bowling is not for everybody, its for the people who take bowling seriously, they don't treat it as a "game" or as a night out, they treat it as a sport, in the same way baseball players treat baseball, and hockey players treat hockey.
While you certaintly cannot completely do away with THS leagues, its simply suicide to the house owner, I do feel that sport bowling should be more available to the people who want it.
I know im nothing special when it comes to bowling, although with some good practice I think I could be, but I very rarely get the opportunity to bowl on some tough shots. There are no fall PBAX or Sport leagues in my area. There are a few over the summer in houses that are not too far away, but in the fall there are none, and very few tournaments utilize sport patterns.
You cannot do away with the THS, but to say that Sport Bowling is stupid is just as ignorant.
Here's what I talk about when I talk about sport bowling "attitudes":
quote:
"Your right, sport bowling is not for everybody, its for the people who take bowling seriously"
I bowl on one THS league a week and you can bet your a** I take it seriously. Competition is what you make of it, and no one knows what's going on in my head while I'm bowling and for that reason, no one has a right to tell me I take it seriously or don't take it seriously based on what oil pattern is down.
For you to try to ascribe your own biases to my game, having never met me or anyone I bowl with, is audacious to the point of irresponsible. Every time someone makes a dumb, elitist statement like this, it just becomes that much easier for the bowlers not fortunate enough to be as talented as you adopt a take-a-hike stance in regards to your opinions.
Sport follows intent. It does not follow conditions.
Jess
Post by: EagleHunter on April 24, 2008, 09:28:15 PM
Andy Varipapa, Dick Weber, Joe Norris, Don Carter, Earl Anthony, Count Gengler, Bill Lillard, Tony Lindeman, Ray Bluth, Mark Roth, Pete Weber, Walter Ray Williams Jr., Mike Aulby, Pat Patterson, Tom Hennessey
Why don't you tell me again how YOU built the sport.
Post by: 302efi on April 24, 2008, 09:30:53 PM
quote:
To those of you morons who continue to think that YOU built the game into what it is...this is for you:
Andy Varipapa, Dick Weber, Joe Norris, Don Carter, Earl Anthony, Count Gengler, Bill Lillard, Tony Lindeman, Ray Bluth, Mark Roth, Pete Weber, Walter Ray Williams Jr., Mike Aulby, Pat Patterson, Tom Hennessey
Why don't you tell me again how YOU built the sport.
So your saying that these pros made the game into the THS walls that it is ?!
Wow !
Since by your post league bowlers didnt do it, your saying the pros did !
Nice post
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: EagleHunter on April 24, 2008, 09:37:04 PM
Someone else who sees what some of us already know. That the 90% of bowlers who most of you claim MUST HAVE the THS do not benefit from it.
I witnessed my mixed league bowl on a 7th shift pattern (literally ZERO oil). The vast majority of league bowlers a) didn't notice that the conditions were different, b) were still within 20-30 pins of their average. And while I was lofting the cap and crossing 35, my league bowlers questioned if what I was doing was legal.
The vast majority of USBC members do NOT purchase many high-tech balls, do not put much if any REVs on it, do not HOOK it much if at all. Which leaves us with those of you who actually benefit from the THS, yet would be negatively effected by tougher conditions.
Me...if my average were to fall because of tougher conditions, good. It shows me what improvements I need to make and it gives a roadmap of how to get better.
Post by: EagleHunter on April 24, 2008, 09:45:00 PM
Maybe you didn't notice that I said those men built the SPORT. Sadly the uSBC and BPAA created the mess we have today, no single bowler or group of bowlers would dare claim responsibility for that...yet many of you try to.
If you want to claim responsibility for building the game, good for you. I will take the SPORT every time!
Post by: TDC57 on April 24, 2008, 09:50:27 PM
You're a numb nuts. You completely mistook what Bob said and turned it into your narrow minded blather. You're wrong on another note. The game was built by average league bowlers. The super stars you named helped give it name recognition. Also, the guys you named were good guys, people who were not elitists like you. They knew who put the butter on the bread. Wise up.
Post by: tenpin477 on April 24, 2008, 10:22:56 PM
By take the game seriously, I meant take it to the next level.
Theres nothing wrong with bowling one THS league a week and taking it deadly serious. But you have to realize that in order to take your game to the next level you have to compete on a much tougher shot, something I wish I got to do more often, as it would help my game tremendously. I never once in my post took an elitist attitude. I also never said I was great if you actually bothered to read my post lol.
Post by: EagleHunter on April 24, 2008, 10:36:41 PM
If you wish to make personal attacks on my character based on the views I place here, that is your business. I have been on all sides of the business side of the sport, and all sides of the athletic endeavor as well. Do I consider myself an elite bowler? No, but I am a very good bowler who could probably throttle you with either hand...not that any of that matters. My views are based on what I've seen in my area (Metro Detroit) and around the country through my bowling travels, so perhaps my views are limited in that I don't have that "small town" view that many here seem to live with daily.
I got to witness a gentleman throw the front 10 at my team this last weekend. All the while my teammates and I were rooting him on as he shot 289 and proceeded to single-handedly give us a beat-down. Now if he had shot 300 would I have complained that the game is too easy?
No, but it is. I acknowledge without hesitation that my average is higher than it should be, and I believe that is the case for the about 95% of the bowling population. Perhaps that is because I look at "par" being 200, not 230 as some today view it. My average at Nationals is around 205 which is closer to what I think is my real average...in fact, when people ask me what my average is I typically quote my USBC Nationals average.
As I said earlier in this thread, if you want to call me an elitist I readily accept. I want the SPORT of bowling to grow, and will admit that you can have the GAME of bowling for yourself. The problem is that most of you want to call it a game, want to pay less for membership, yet want SPORT-like recognition and awards. You cannot have it both ways...
Post by: zerorev on April 24, 2008, 10:52:56 PM
Post by: titletowncards on April 24, 2008, 10:55:25 PM
I only wish I had the talent to do what they do. I think the PBA has created a good system to promote their Sport, and bowling on the PBA is a sport.
I don't care to be on either side of this line that been created. Both the THS and Sport Bowling have there place in the bowling world.
The question is not which is better or worse.
It's, how can the USBC and we the bowling public get more people interested in bowling again.
--------------------
titletowncards
Post by: TDC57 on April 24, 2008, 10:58:58 PM
Again you prove to be the zero everybody here thinks you are. Bowling is a game as is basketball, baseball, golf, football etc. Playing it or them at a higher level does not change it or them to a sport. They are all sports no matter who plays them. Get it? Plays them. Games are played. If you want to get into semantics I'll leave that for you to beat yourself up over. Since your about 17 years old maybe you need to work on your intelligence as hard as you want to work on your bowling game. If your older than 17, you're just the blow hard big mouth that's ruining bowling. Just saying "I am a very good bowler who could probably throttle you with either hand shows how big an Azz you are." I wish we lived closer to each other as I would like to take you up on that offer.
I also found that guys that have to brag on themselves usually don't live up to the hype. You don't even have the guts to enter a profile. Life probably doesn't live up to the hype there either. I will continue to call you an elitist and a snob because you are what you are. I also don't believe for a minute you have been involved on the business side of bowling either. You wouldn't sound so stupid or make such unintelligent statements if you had. The only side you've been on is the one where the big blowhard comes to the lanes each night and acts like everyone should kiss his feet for him allowing them to be in his presence.
Edited on 4/24/2008 11:01 PM
Edited on 4/24/2008 11:02 PM
Post by: 302efi on April 24, 2008, 11:24:53 PM
quote:
When all else fails, comment on the lack of a profile. A profile proves nothing.
"Chad Williams has not entered a profile "
lol
--------------------
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: JessN16 on April 24, 2008, 11:31:06 PM
quote:
I am a very good bowler who could probably throttle you with either hand...not that any of that matters.
Well, I guess that settles it. You could throttle someone with either hand. Glad to see we're all being adults about this.
Jess
Post by: TDC57 on April 24, 2008, 11:33:13 PM
Post by: TDC57 on April 24, 2008, 11:37:34 PM
Post by: TDC57 on April 24, 2008, 11:41:51 PM
Post by: zerorev on April 24, 2008, 11:45:04 PM
F'N HILARIOUS
Post by: bstone on April 24, 2008, 11:58:48 PM
--------------------
"The difference betwen porcupines and bowling centers is that porcupines have pricks on the outside."-unknown-I borrowed it from someone else
Post by: Atochabsh on April 25, 2008, 01:13:17 AM
My partner bowled 657 at age 13, in 1967. He had a lot of skills and still does. But he's not all about luck like some bowlers then and now. And 1971, shot 786. He's continued to average over 200 for 37 years straight summer and winter participation and despite a stroke 5 years ago. So those that have skills have them it doesn't matter the point in time. Its all about ability and drive. Doesn't matter about lane conditions. Lane conditions are all relative to what you see on that given day. And he doesn't believe that the sport shot will save USBC bowling. And YES he's bowled in a certified sport bowling league.
There is always going to be that balance between luck and skill in this game. It doesn't matter the lane conditions. On any given condition when everyone seems to struggle, someone will excell. So when you berate the 180 bowler for shooting 300, its just not right. No one was born being a 200+ average bowler and an accomplished Sport pattern bowler.
This forum is populated by a lot of younger bowlers. You have no idea how your bowling life is going to be 10, 25, or 40 years from now. You don't even know if you are going to be bowling anymore. I would just caution a lot of younger bowlers that you take a breather and absorb just a bit of what older more experienced bowlers are saying on both sides of this issue. If you don't think that sheer dumb luck was ever an issue "back in the good old days" then you are wrong.
Erin
Post by: JessN16 on April 25, 2008, 01:36:04 AM
quote:
I put in the honor scores for an association of nearly 10000 bowlers. And I've put in some pretty amazing feats. 137 average bowler with 11 in a row (290 game). Doesn't mean that easy lane conditions were at fault for their achievement more then just a combination of condition and luck and concentration on that nig,ht. However, I do know that the first 300 bowled in one of the houses I've played league at, the bowler was a lady (averaging around 170 at the time), throwing a back up ball, drunk off her stool, around 1963. First 300 in the house. What skill was involved in that?
My partner bowled 657 at age 13, in 1967. He had a lot of skills and still does. But he's not all about luck like some bowlers then and now. And 1971, shot 786. He's continued to average over 200 for 37 years straight summer and winter participation and despite a stroke 5 years ago. So those that have skills have them it doesn't matter the point in time. Its all about ability and drive. Doesn't matter about lane conditions. Lane conditions are all relative to what you see on that given day. And he doesn't believe that the sport shot will save USBC bowling. And YES he's bowled in a certified sport bowling league.
There is always going to be that balance between luck and skill in this game. It doesn't matter the lane conditions. On any given condition when everyone seems to struggle, someone will excell. So when you berate the 180 bowler for shooting 300, its just not right. No one was born being a 200+ average bowler and an accomplished Sport pattern bowler.
This forum is populated by a lot of younger bowlers. You have no idea how your bowling life is going to be 10, 25, or 40 years from now. You don't even know if you are going to be bowling anymore. I would just caution a lot of younger bowlers that you take a breather and absorb just a bit of what older more experienced bowlers are saying on both sides of this issue. If you don't think that sheer dumb luck was ever an issue "back in the good old days" then you are wrong.
Erin
Great post.
The house I learned to bowl in is a 10-lane wood house with above-ground returns and until about five years ago, still oiled with a bug sprayer. It's approximately 55 years old or more, and has never had a 300 shot in it to my knowledge.
In 1990, when I was last in a league there, our very sweet league secretary, bowling off her 140 average, rolled what at the time was the highest game in the house's history -- 286. She threw 12-pound plastic right up the middle, backup. She would throw, turn around and walk back before the ball got to the pins (nice 7-mph ball speed). The reason she did that was because the kick bar in the old Brunswick A-1 machines didn't work and all 10 lanes had to be manually reset.
After it was over, the center put her name and score up on the scoreboard over the lanes, where it remained for at least three years. And it terribly embarrassed the poor woman, who didn't like the attention.
These stories might be anecdotal in nature but it points to a characteristic of bowling that doesn't exist in football, golf or any other sport: It is not possible to take pure, dumb luck out of the game no matter what the equipment or oil pattern is. And I don't just mean luck being a small component of the score, like wind is in golf or odd bounces are in football -- I mean entire games/nights/seasons often revolve around it.
If we could guarantee that a "perfect" ball would strike every time, it might be easier to demand sport conditions for all. But "perfect" shots get tapped, leave splits, etc., all the time. There is no way to get a true test of ability by laying down a single shot and decreeing, "this is what bowling shall be."
If tournaments and professional events are conducted on tough shots, that will weed out the pretenders. That's all that matters. I couldn't give a tinker's da*n what outsiders think about the sport and its scoring and those that do need to sack up a little and quit letting outside forces dictate whether they respect the sport, themselves and their own accomplishments.
Jess
Post by: EagleHunter on April 25, 2008, 01:43:52 AM
Therein again lies the problem. Good for you if you don't care about what the outside world thinks of you or the Sport. However, if the Sport is EVER to grow it will be because of the influence and money spent by those OUTSIDE the industry...so it matter GREATLY what they think of it.
Seeing as how the bowling industry isn't too keen on putting up its own money to create the necessary programs to grow the sport, someone will have to foot the bill.
Post by: EagleHunter on April 25, 2008, 01:53:15 AM
Is that really the best you have? By the way congratulations on the 300 and 800 you shot in PRACTICE. I am sure am glad that you posted that on your profile...shows everyone exactly who we are dealing with.
I have no desire to post a profile, but I will leave you with this:
T654 - D719 - S716 = AE2089 --> ABC Nationals (not practice)
And in my typical elitist fashion, I will refrain from speaking to you any further...I mean what kind of left-hander only averages 180?
Post by: JessN16 on April 25, 2008, 02:19:15 AM
quote:
Posted by Jess: "I couldn't give a tinker's da*n what outsiders think about the sport and its scoring and those that do need to sack up a little and quit letting outside forces dictate whether they respect the sport, themselves and their own accomplishments"
Therein again lies the problem. Good for you if you don't care about what the outside world thinks of you or the Sport. However, if the Sport is EVER to grow it will be because of the influence and money spent by those OUTSIDE the industry...so it matter GREATLY what they think of it.
Seeing as how the bowling industry isn't too keen on putting up its own money to create the necessary programs to grow the sport, someone will have to foot the bill.
If you actually knew what you were talking about, you would know that the reason outside money is hard for bowling to come by has nothing to do with scoring pace. It has to do with the fact that the televised bowling audience, while loyal to the telecast, have not historically been quick to support sponsors with their own wallets. That is due, in great part, to the demographics of bowling versus other sports.
It also has a great deal to do with the historical stereotype of the bowler as being Bald Joe the Drunken Schmoe, wearing his ugly shirt and shoes and smoking a stogie while he bowled. That stereotype has been with us since the height of bowling's "glory days" and shows no sign of going away soon.
If you are going to state that an investment company or Cadillac or some other high-dollar, high-profile company won't pitch money in because of the scoring pace, I'd like a little proof beyond your word. But I know I won't get that. I've seen PBA pros make plenty of reference to the advertising conundrum and scoring has never come up -- but what do they know, right?
As for posting your bowling scores, if only it had any correlation to your IQ, you'd be aces. The problem is you actually think your athletic ability has bearing on your ability to understand the rules of basic finance, demographics, or societal trends, and it obviously very much does not.
But you are pretty good at telling people how you can throttle them with either hand. So that's something.
The truth is, every time you open your mouth in this discussion, you drive people away from your point of view, because you can't make a post here without thumping your chest and talking about how important and talented you are. You've been this way ever since you first came on the site.
Jess
Post by: 302efi on April 25, 2008, 07:15:58 AM
When you say "save the game/sport of bowling", what are you exactly talking about ? How is it dieing ? You thinking everyone will just quit one day ?
You can't really think all the bowling centers will just close down one day, do you ?
What about the game, is really needed to be "saved" ?
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 4/25/2008 7:16 AM
Post by: trash heap on April 25, 2008, 07:53:00 AM
quote:
There is always going to be that balance between luck and skill in this game. It doesn't matter the lane conditions. On any given condition when everyone seems to struggle, someone will excell. So when you berate the 180 bowler for shooting 300, its just not right. No one was born being a 200+ average bowler and an accomplished Sport pattern bowler.
This forum is populated by a lot of younger bowlers. You have no idea how your bowling life is going to be 10, 25, or 40 years from now. You don't even know if you are going to be bowling anymore. I would just caution a lot of younger bowlers that you take a breather and absorb just a bit of what older more experienced bowlers are saying on both sides of this issue. If you don't think that sheer dumb luck was ever an issue "back in the good old days" then you are wrong.
This true there is always going to be a small percentage that is luck also there is a small percentage where someone can be on for one night.
That has happened to me twice in bowling tournaments. I was throwing the ball right where I wanted it go and I was throwing it great and seemed so effortless. Most nights I get that for 4 or 5 shots and I lose it. Then there are nights that nothing seems to work and I struggle.
Post by: n00dlejester on April 25, 2008, 07:53:51 AM
quote:
Tony,
Is that really the best you have? By the way congratulations on the 300 and 800 you shot in PRACTICE. I am sure am glad that you posted that on your profile...shows everyone exactly who we are dealing with.
I have no desire to post a profile, but I will leave you with this:
T654 - D719 - S716 = AE2089 --> ABC Nationals (not practice)
And in my typical elitist fashion, I will refrain from speaking to you any further...I mean what kind of left-hander only averages 180?
Now that's just downright jackassery right here. I'm not sure if it's sarcasm or serious, but to even put that up is way over the line. Those are lovely Nationals scores, but what relevance does it have to anything? Why does someone's ability on the lanes mean so much to so many of you? It is a physical activity, and not all people have the same amount of physical abilities. Some work harder at it, some don't. Lots of people seem to be losing sight of the bigger picture for the little details. Does anybody even remember why this debate cropped up? Or has it gone the way of the political dichotomy: arguing for argument's sake?
Post by: 302efi on April 25, 2008, 08:09:48 AM
quote:
Does anybody even remember why this debate cropped up?
Yeah, the OP of this thread was saying USBC should not continue to push sportshots or sport bowling on us.
For some reason the bowling elites think that sport bowling is the saving grace of the game. So Eagle Hunter posting his great scores on the Nationals "tuff" shot, shows his great ability
Sh!t for all we know is he went Brooklyn and threw the nose on every shot and carried ..LOL
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Edited on 4/25/2008 8:12 AM
Post by: tfav44 on April 25, 2008, 12:43:15 PM
Team - Tried starting out playing straight up 11-12 board but couldn't get comfortable. Four splits, including back to back 4-9 splits that ruined what I thought were decent shots. 1st game had 5 open frames, and it could not have been a worse start to the tournament. Shot 135! I can't believe it happened!
Moved left to playing around 3rd arrow with very little swing and finished 208 and 222. I used a Solid Zone at about 1200-1500 grit. It's an international ball that's a little stronger than the Wizard. Bowled the same squad as Steve Kloempken's all-star team that included Rhino Page as anchor. My stellar start meant I had ZERO fun in brackets, too.
Doubles - 9:20am (2nd) squad. You get 4 practice shots, so I moved way outside to going straight up 4 board and was surprised to find the pocket. First game was 200, so I felt like maybe I could stay out there and hopefully get some "carry" help. Two open frames and lots of spares for a 180. Then things started getting strange again with the splits on seemingly decent shots. My 3rd game had 5 opens again from 3 splits, 1 washout, and 1 idiot shot by the bowler. Punched out in the 10th for 152! I can't believe I'm actually typing this, but it happened.
Singles - Switched pairs and the next pair had a bit more carry-down. Game 1 had 7 spares and two open frames on another split and another idiot shot by me... 168! Game 2 had only 1 open but 6 spares for 185. I'm wishing the pain would stop, but had to bowl one more game just to see what depths I can sink into again. Another split to start and one other open for a 195. I was able finally to use my Blast Zone (4000 abralon) straight up 7 board and finished with a nice looking shot but the time was gone and my patience was, too. All events total was a whopping 1645!
At times carry was good, but overall, I left too many splits and flagged a few single pin spares to ruin any chance to a good showing this year. I must say that I still had a great time. The shot was demanding, and the tournament seemed to be running well. Hats off to Albuquerque for a good time even though I bowled like crap.
If I could bowl it again, I'd start way outside with my Solid Zone and just stay out there. Every where I tried playing the lanes there wasn't much room to miss, which is quite allright with me. Chalk this one up to experience and hope there's a silver lining somewhere.
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Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Amateur Staff
Edited on 4/21/2008 4:22 AM
sounds like the kind of event i should be excited about spending close to a 1000.00, to get to, stay at and participate in. Similar stories are being reported back by my friends. Many are saying they might go to vegas next year and skip the bowling, rather throw their money away in the casino, instead of bowling 150's
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tfav44
twisted fury
eraser boost
hot rod super sport pearl
a bad night of bowling is better than a good night at work.
every frame is a opportunity to succeed!
www.virginiabeachtraveltips.com
Post by: TDC57 on April 25, 2008, 04:11:50 PM
Great post again. At least I have the balls to tell what I average and what my high series right and lefthanded have been. If posting my high scores from practice shows what kind of person everyone is dealing with here then I guess there are alot of people who have lowered themselves here in your eyes by posting what they have shot practicing. I said it didn't mean anything I guess a superstar snob like you can't understand that statement. Anyone could post the Nationals scores you did, not much proof they're real.
Post by: EagleHunter on April 25, 2008, 06:26:29 PM
If you think that I'm merely here to blow smoke, well quite frankly to hell with you. I have done my part to try and inject a different viewpoint and look from a MUCH larger scope than it appears most of you are capable of. If that comes across as elitist I would suggest it is because you are incapable of comprehending what I am talking about.
I have been on the lower end of the scoring spectrum and worked my up to near the top, so I know that I can comment about these things from experience. For those of you who haven't cracked the 200 average barrier, how dare you attempt to tell anyone how it is when you haven't been there? Is that wealth of knowledge coming out?
I have worked with well known coaches, including National PBA champions. I have worked at my local association and have talked about these very issues with past ABC Presidents, Directors, and Executive Directors. These are well-respected individuals within the sport, and people who I respect a great deal. Our conversations have often echoed some of the things discussed here. So since I seem to be on track with people that I respect, and are respected throughout the industry, I get far less concerned with what other less respected individuals think, especially those who are unable to think outside of their tiny box.
Meanwhile, Tony felt the need to PM me and challenge me (among other things he had to say). Good luck with that, I have much better things to do with my time than to deal with your ignorance and childishness. If you don't want to get called out, then keep quiet.
For the record, my high average was 231-RH and 187-LH (bowled half the season after pulling a tendon in my right hand...it was my 1st time bowling LH). High game 300-RH, 267-LH, High series 819-RH, 665-LH.
To the rest of you...best of luck during the off-season.
Post by: JessN16 on April 25, 2008, 06:36:48 PM
quote:
My last post was in DIRECT response to Tony's complaint that I wasn't man enough to post a profile. Quite frankly I do not care to blow my own horn, but if you wish to continue baiting me...then toot toot. Most of you wouldn't believe anything that I put in a profile anyway...too bad for you.
If you think that I'm merely here to blow smoke, well quite frankly to hell with you. I have done my part to try and inject a different viewpoint and look from a MUCH larger scope than it appears most of you are capable of. If that comes across as elitist I would suggest it is because you are incapable of comprehending what I am talking about.
I have been on the lower end of the scoring spectrum and worked my up to near the top, so I know that I can comment about these things from experience. For those of you who haven't cracked the 200 average barrier, how dare you attempt to tell anyone how it is when you haven't been there? Is that wealth of knowledge coming out?
I have worked with well known coaches, including National PBA champions. I have worked at my local association and have talked about these very issues with past ABC Presidents, Directors, and Executive Directors. These are well-respected individuals within the sport, and people who I respect a great deal. Our conversations have often echoed some of the things discussed here. So since I seem to be on track with people that I respect, and are respected throughout the industry, I get far less concerned with what other less respected individuals think, especially those who are unable to think outside of their tiny box.
Meanwhile, Tony felt the need to PM me and challenge me (among other things he had to say). Good luck with that, I have much better things to do with my time than to deal with your ignorance and childishness. If you don't want to get called out, then keep quiet.
For the record, my high average was 231-RH and 187-LH (bowled half the season after pulling a tendon in my right hand...it was my 1st time bowling LH). High game 300-RH, 267-LH, High series 819-RH, 665-LH.
To the rest of you...best of luck during the off-season.
More chest-thumping and posturing from someone who, at the end of the day, is no more or less significant than anyone else who holds a USBC card.
That's what you can't tolerate, but have no choice BUT to tolerate. You're not driving the bus and it obviously kills you.
No one else who responded to this thread did so with the haughtiness you brought to the table, so the more pi**ed-off you get (and it's obvious), the more I just sit here and chuckle. You can't do a thing about any of this and it's just eating away at you. I'm sure you were counting on people to respect your viewpoint more because of your bowling but guess what -- the opposite thing happened.
Good luck to you, too, this summer. Maybe you'll find some humility.
Jess
Post by: 302efi on April 25, 2008, 06:40:02 PM
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Sport Bowling is a F**king joke
Post by: TDC57 on April 25, 2008, 09:40:28 PM
Your the man, there is no doubt. If someone doesn't average 200, they know nothing about the sport of bowling. You are an even bigger jacka## than I thought you were. The scores you post are merely that and with no proof I would only believe you are lying. You think anyone under 200 or that bowls on a THS is insignificant and worthless to bowling. You lied about knowing the bowling business and give some lame excuse to back the lie. Talking to people doesn't mean jack. Being involved in the day to day business of a bowling center would knock that smugness out of you. You know nothing about what drives bowling, you only know the sport from your blowhard perspective. You tell me you could throttle me with either hand yet haven't got the nads to back it. You are the slimy wuss I knew you were. Willing to run down the backbone of the sport and spew things about an industry you have know real knowledge of. WHAT A MAN!!
Post by: TDC57 on April 25, 2008, 09:57:42 PM
That's a great post, right on the money. It's clowns like sparrowhunter that are what killing the growth of bowling and in fact driving many away. He knows it, but that's what he wants, a slimmer sport that only includes the guys that average over 200 on a shot he feels justifies that score. The men who brought this game to the forefront (Dick Weber, Don Carter, Earl Anthony, Johnny Petraglia, to name a few) never had such egotistical, elitist thoughts come out of their mouths. He's used some of their names and should be slapped up side the head real hard for bringing them into his gutter thinking. Guys like him could leave the game tomorrow and nobody and I mean nobody would miss whatever he brought to it.
Post by: Jorge300 on April 28, 2008, 10:50:42 AM
quote:
I will repeat, I have been bowling in men's leagues for 36 years and have been taking care of our local lanes for 26. I believe I've learned a few things about the industry during that time. First, if you think easy lanes are the answer, you are wrong. If you think tough sport shots are the answer, YOU ARE A MORON!!!! The industry is in a fragile state, and if the answer was simple the brain trusts at the USBC would have found it by now. Jorge, climb into the real world and quit being an elitist (you guys are ruining this sport). This game was created for recreation. It evolved into many different layers. The top bowlers of yesteryear were not the holier than now guys who having been piping off on this subject over the last few days. Many of today's top bowlers have now become such snobs that if anyone shoots a high score and are not the quality bowler they are, it shouldn't be taken seriously. Get over yourselves! This game is still dominated in numbers by the average joe bowler. They pay your way at every turn. You take their money in leagues, you take their money at tournaments and yet you want them to bow down and kiss your feet because you have put more into your game than them and they damn well better not shoot a 300 game or honor count of any kind unless it's on a difficult shot.
Any bowler can shoot 300. Lanes don't play into that at all. 150 avg. bowlers have been doing it forever. These guys do not shoot 800s. These guys gladly let you take their money at every turn, but if they luck out and have a 300, boy you get hosed off about it. Who are you guys and where did you snobs come from? Why do you even bowl in these leagues with the soft shots anyway. Why submit yourself to such agony? Your better than that, find the other elitists and form your own leagues where you can beat your heads against the wall every night but can go home satisfied you did it admirably. Quit bowling in the tournaments those schmucks with those inflated averages do. Those inflated averages they bring with them giving you every edge possible has to diminish your enjoyment when you get your prize money check. Tell the USBC to just ban these clowns and have the BPAA provide membership to them if they want a sanctioning body. Tell the USBC we don't need them to survive. We elitists will bring enough ego and savvy to the organization that our hot air alone will keep the ship afloat. That is how to grow the sport!!
Tony C,
I guess after 36 years in the bowling business, your customer service skills have either gone away or more then likely you never had any to begin with. You complain about me and others yet you can't do so without calling names and generally acting like a child. Maybe someone would take you seriously if you could actually put a post together without calling someone a moron?!?
Now, After you have judged me wrong again, let me say that I do understand the business of bowling. Unfortunately, league bowlers aren't the big drawing items for center owners. That's why you have places like Main Event show up that have no or only a few leagues. The open play bowler is what they want, the person who pays $3.50-4.00/ game, eats and drinks at the snack bar, orders a round or two at the bar, etc. Or the cosmic bowler who will pay $20-30 to bowl in the dark with loud music playing and laser lights flashing. Luckily there are still houses who realize that having leagues that will fill up 60-90% of the house every week guaranteed are worthwhile.
And lastly, again, I have never called for an end to the THS. All I have said was that SPort Bowling and PBAX leagues allwo for those who want to progress to the next level a chance to do so, and for those saying they are a joke or are crap and things like this are being ignorant. Now if you want to fall into that category, be my guest, as your posts following this one have shown that you fit right in.
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Jorge300