BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: J_w73 on December 30, 2009, 07:39:50 AM
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How does the VISE IT system get around the "no interior void" USBC rule? I believe I read that the USBC specifies that when using a slug you must drill through the bottom so that there isn''''t any isolated voids in the ball. If you didn''''t drill through and there was a gap between the hole bottom and the slug then there would be a void making the ball illegal. Well in the IT system it looks like there would be a void around the female screw molley that is in the bottom of the hole once the slug is screwed into it.
Can somebody that is familiar with the IT system give me some insight on this?
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Edited on 12/30/2009 4:43 PM
Edited on 12/30/2009 4:53 PM
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I completely agree
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money
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"A man with no skills can be taught. A man with no honor, has nothing."
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but they are legal according to the USBC ??
I guess if the whole ball-it was counter sunk into the bottom of the hole that would solve the problem but I don''t think that is the way they are installed.. please let me know if I am wrong.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Edited on 12/30/2009 4:59 PM
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i don't think any of us can answer, i know i do not work for the usbc so i think a call or email to them would be the best way, but im sure that many would agree it seems like the vise system does not fit the rules so im sure that when the usbc is contacted it will take a long time before a response is received
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i run a shop in south Florida, i will do everyone a favor and email them right now and i will let everyone know what they say
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Call Vise 800-323-0039
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"A man with no skills can be taught. A man with no honor, has nothing."
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quote:
i run a shop in south Florida, i will do everyone a favor and email them right now and i will let everyone know what they say
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You drill the hole the same size all the way down correct.. and then just drill a small pencil size hole for the ball-it molley to fit into??
and the ball-it sits at the bottom of the hole with space around it?
Just trying to make sure mine are installed correctly.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180
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just looking at my ball again and there is a small hole on the side of the slug that goes all the way into that void.. so maybe that circumvents the interior void rule.. but I don't know what "type" of hole this would be under USBC rules.. it isn't technically a vent hole for the thumb..
and also I guess their is space around the slug as well that is created by the shim sleeve..
I emailed the USBC as well. I am interested if they already have an answer for this or if they will try to put something together that sounds shady like most of their responses about their rules.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180
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i just emailed them, i am too interested in their response
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Its legal on the pba and also during usbc play. The vise website clearly states it for both. I was debating on getting one installed on my next ball. I see the bottom piece is screwed directly to the ball thus making it part of the ball. I can't see why its any different from some one who don't use inserts vs who does as long as the specs are legal. I will never drill a ball without vise grips or a thumb slug. I'm sure they did there homework even before it was produced. How the usbc responds back I like to know. Happy New Years all.
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i understand that vises website says that, but i think what we are questioning is the actual determination by the usbc as to how the IT system meets their equipment specifications,obviously the usbc passed it when it was sent to them for inspection but i believe many are questioning that decision.
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Edited on 12/30/2009 6:34 PM
Edited on 12/30/2009 6:35 PM
Edited on 12/30/2009 6:36 PM
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If you drill at an angle that intersects where the pin enters the core you'll find there is a small void in most balls. -- JohnP
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agreed john, but that is unintentional
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Here are the rules that govern voids in a ball. Where do they say the void has to be intentional? -- JohnP
Material:
1. The ball shall be constructed of solid material ie: no
liquids, and without voids in its interior.
2. Any materials added to or included in the coverstock
shall be equally distributed throughout the entire
coverstock of the ball, except for materials used in
logos and other required markings.
3. The density of any piece/component in a ball (i.e.: core,
coverstock, weight block, etc.) shall not exceed
3.80 g/mL (i.e.: no pure metals or high density materials).
4. Following approval of the ball, the introduction of
substances that are not comparable to the original
material used in manufacturing of a bowling ball is
prohibited. Likewise, altering a bowling ball in any
way so as to increase its weight or cause it to be off
balance outside the specifications is prohibited.
Plugs and Designs/Logos:
1. Plugs may be inserted for the purpose of redrilling
the ball.
2. Designs may be imbedded in the ball for guides,
observation, or identification purposes, provided such
designs are flush with the outer surface of the ball.
3. Plugs and Designs/Logos:
1. Plugs may be inserted for the purpose of redrilling
the ball.
2. Designs may be imbedded in the ball for guides,
observation, or identification purposes, provided such
designs are flush with the outer surface of the ball.
3. In all cases there shall be no interior voids.
4. Plugs and designs must be made of material similar to,
although not exactly the same as the original material
of which the ball was made, and shall otherwise
comply with all other specifications for a bowling ball.
5. Density not to exceed 1.5 grams per cubic centimeter.4. Plugs and designs must be made of material similar to,
although not exactly the same as the original material
of which the ball was made, and shall otherwise
comply with all other specifications for a bowling ball.
5. Density not to exceed 1.5 grams per cubic centimeter.
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it does not, maybe they should add that as well. The only point I was trying to make is that the Vise system has a void built into the system, which means that when used as intended the Vise system utilizes a void. One could argue that the bowling ball was not designed with the void so if a void occurs after drilling it was not the intent of the manufacturer of that product.
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I am sure the USBC has done testing of the VISE IT before giving it the OK approval. Their determination of the product will supercede(sp)any other rules. I am guessing because there is only (1) contant way to install the IT was the deciding factor. Also, is it really a true void. Once the slug is screwed into the ball. How much void space is there???
Don't forget...This is what our sanction fees are used for. The testing they did on these contraptions....
Beans
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Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
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Don't forget...This is what our sanction fees are used for. The testing they did on these contraptions....
Beans,
I'd agree but then USBC also charges the manufacturer to approve the product....yes?
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Scott
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There is no interior void in the product. The inner cylinder that locks the Vice IT into place has a hole in it so if you wanted to you could inspect the bottom of the drilled hole. Thus why it is USBC and PBA legal. I have used the product extensively and it is a great product.
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"Oops, Looks like we are going to need another timmy." -Dr Lizard, "Dinosaurs"
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quote:
There is no interior void in the product. The inner cylinder that locks the Vice IT into place has a hole in it so if you wanted to you could inspect the bottom of the drilled hole. Thus why it is USBC and PBA legal. I have used the product extensively and it is a great product.
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"Oops, Looks like we are going to need another timmy." -Dr Lizard, "Dinosaurs"
Can you please clarify what you are saying? Where and in what piece is this hole that you are talking about? And why would this be legal?
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180
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Here is the answer from the USBC.. I guess there is a sufficient hole in the bottom of the slug and slug-it combo that goes into the void
Thanks for your question. As far as a void, that is defined in the back of the spec manual as "a manufactured cavity with purposeful size, dimensions and/or location within an object." The spec would be similar to that as applied for a thumb slug. There is no requirement to minimum size of the hole on the bottom of the device. And while small, there is still a clearance through the bottom of the insert for review purposes.
On a similar note: if a thumb hole is drilled into a slug, the clearance through the slug, although most do it, can be any size. If you drill a thumb of 1" into a 1 1/4" slug, you can then drill a small hole through the bottom of the slug to expose the underside. What matters is it's drilled out, but doesn't have to be the same diameter as the thumb hole. when you drill it out, there is no longer a void, even if it's a relatively small hole.
Hopefully this makes sense, but I do understand your concern.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180
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that does not answer the space surrounding the thumb slug after an inner is screwed in place. The sleeve at the top of the whole makes a snug fit up top but underneath that space is a void in between that ring and the bottom of the hole.
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It is no different than drilling the thumbhole deep to remove excessive thumb weight. Using a 1 1/4 slug for an example you would drill the normal depth and then use a 1 tnch bit to go deeper to remove excessive thumb weigh t. The "shelf" created by the smaller bit wouls linit the slug from sinking. and you would have a "void" under the slug
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i am refering to the void/gap between the inner slug and the inner edge of the drilled hole, located around the width of the hole, the length of the black sleeve at the top and the bottom of the hole.
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just got my email from usbc, all they said was it is approved. Im glad they really took the time to read my email.
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It is no different than drilling the thumbhole deep to remove excessive thumb weight. Using a 1 1/4 slug for an example you would drill the normal depth and then use a 1 tnch bit to go deeper to remove excessive thumb weigh t. The "shelf" created by the smaller bit wouls linit the slug from sinking. and you would have a "void" under the slug
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Arsenal: Mega Friction, S-75, Break Point x 2, Break x2,Clutch x 2,Maniac,Awakening,Lunatic,SX-1,Link,Hype urethane,Global Globe, 14# golden globe
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that is why when drilling a slug you must drill a hole (no matter how small) through the slug so that there will not be an included void under the slug..
the hole through the slug makes the two areas connected..
the "connection" of the open areas with the IT is still sketchy to me though.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180
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just got my email from usbc, all they said was it is approved. Im glad they really took the time to read my email.
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HAHA... that is the usual response.. just statements with no examination of details or responses to the question details.. just an overall answer that sometimes might or might not apply to the original question... Surprised I got more of an answer.
That is what I got when I gave a specific scenario about a bowler going over the line and touching the bowling surface after throwing his 12th strike for a 300.. never would give me a definite answer even though the scenario was defined..said since they weren't there they could not make a ruling and that it would have to go to the league board.. I asked for their ruling in a "hypothetical" scenario and they still wouldn't make a decision.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180
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quote:
i am refering to the void/gap between the inner slug and the inner edge of the drilled hole, located around the width of the hole, the length of the black sleeve at the top and the bottom of the hole.
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I guess they are saying there isn't a hole that is surrounded in the ball that would qualify as a void.. they are saying all voids have access to the outside of the ball so are therefore legal..
the hole in the bottom of the slug that is plugged with the security cap is still considered a hole that vents the area not making it a void
atleast that is how I read it..
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180
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im not sure if im making myself clear or not, the void i see is the space between the outer edge of the inserted end and the hole, installed at the top of the hole is the black sleeve which does not go all the way down. So i believe the void is that gap between the outside edge of the insert and the edge of the whole, at the depths below the black sleeve. Does anyone understand what i am saying?
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im not sure if im making myself clear or not, the void i see is the space between the outer edge of the inserted end and the hole, installed at the top of the hole is the black sleeve which does not go all the way down. So i believe the void is that gap between the outside edge of the insert and the edge of the whole, at the depths below the black sleeve. Does anyone understand what i am saying?
Since this area is exposed whenever you remove the thumb insert, and because it is so small that it won't have any discernable affect on either ball reaction or providing an area to insert another foreign material, I guess it doesn't really matter enough for the USBC to outlaw it. You guys seem way too concerned about this when it's something that, quite frankly, doesn't make one damn bit of difference.
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im not sure if im making myself clear or not, the void i see is the space between the outer edge of the inserted end and the hole, installed at the top of the hole is the black sleeve which does not go all the way down. So i believe the void is that gap between the outside edge of the insert and the edge of the whole, at the depths below the black sleeve. Does anyone understand what i am saying?
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I understand what you are saying.. they are saying that the space is not technically enclosed (which is true) so it isn't a void.. on the side of the slug there is a vent hole that would make the space you are talking about not an enclosed void...
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180
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When installing an IT you drill the 1 7/16" hole for a 1 3/8" thumb to the specified height on the drill bit, then the extra 1/2" hole buried down so it can hold the bottom piece of the IT. After putting the retaining ring at the top of the hole, one inserts the bottom piece of the IT. The safety device that is inserted into the bottom of the hole HAS A SMALL HOLE IN IT. This is to inspect the bottom of the hole. Since one can inspect the bottom of the hole, no void exists in the ball.
Hopefully this clarifies any misconceptions.
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"Oops, Looks like we are going to need another timmy." -Dr Lizard, "Dinosaurs"
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quote:
When installing an IT you drill the 1 7/16" hole for a 1 3/8" thumb to the specified height on the drill bit, then the extra 1/2" hole buried down so it can hold the bottom piece of the IT. After putting the retaining ring at the top of the hole, one inserts the bottom piece of the IT. The safety device that is inserted into the bottom of the hole HAS A SMALL HOLE IN IT. This is to inspect the bottom of the hole. Since one can inspect the bottom of the hole, no void exists in the ball.
Hopefully this clarifies any misconceptions.
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"Oops, Looks like we are going to need another timmy." -Dr Lizard, "Dinosaurs"
makes sense..
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180