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Author Topic: Pin up / down questions  (Read 2965 times)

Metal_rules

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Pin up / down questions
« on: December 20, 2020, 08:17:17 AM »
I need to get opinions. If you layout 2 of the same balls one pin  up and the other down, just how much of a difference will there be? I have been told that for house shots that this wont make a big difference. The big difference is adjusting the cover. So lets here what you have to say about this.
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Jesse James

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Re: Pin up / down questions
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2020, 09:53:50 AM »
If you are speed dominant, it will be hard to tell the difference. If you are rev dominant, the difference is obvious! I am rev dominant and consistently throw the ball in the 13mph range because of my age and injuries. The pin up ball will go longer an hit later. The pin down ball will tend to read earlier and sometimes flip, depending on the core.(especially if its asymmetric) But its hit will be just a little less on the backend.
Because of that lesser hit, I tend to have a lot of my weak balls used on dry and short patterns, pin down! I just throw them harder. But I have balls drilled pin down that I use in houses with very soft or weak backends that work also, because I want the ball to read earlier.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2020, 10:00:39 AM by Jesse James »
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bowler100

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Re: Pin up / down questions
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2020, 10:51:16 AM »
The biggest difference between pin up and pin down is primarily is the pin buffer or angle to the VAL. The higher the pin is, the lower the angle to the VAL. Smaller VAL angle means the ball has a shorter hook window (it could mean more snap or more hook/set depending on the ball and the bowler throwing it). Pin up does not necessarily mean more length than pin down. If anything, pin up layout seem to burn energy quicker once it gets out of the skid phase. Usually the drilling angle and/or pin to PAP distance have a bigger impact on length (and certainly surface prep).

bradl

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Re: Pin up / down questions
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2020, 03:36:50 PM »

Ron Hickland just did a video on this and explaining what happens between a pin up layout and a pin down layout. Have a look here:


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ignitebowling

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Re: Pin up / down questions
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2020, 07:00:06 PM »
Unless your rev rate is close to 600 you wont see a difference.

As much as Mo hates pin down the real world applications even in his own videos show something different then what he preaches.  #spareball

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Jesse James

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Re: Pin up / down questions
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2020, 10:42:53 PM »
This is TOOO funny to me! Hickland shows a video with all these specs that obviously show a difference in entry angle......even though its a very SMALL difference, and then says there's really NO difference between the two!

YES THERE IS! ONE STRUCK AND THE OTHER DID NOT! LOL
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themagician

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Re: Pin up / down questions
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2020, 08:37:52 AM »
This is TOOO funny to me! Hickland shows a video with all these specs that obviously show a difference in entry angle......even though its a very SMALL difference, and then says there's really NO difference between the two!

YES THERE IS! ONE STRUCK AND THE OTHER DID NOT! LOL

But the best part is the pin down struck, which according to Mo is bass ackwards lol.

Everyone is going to see shape a little different and needs to find out what works well for them. I have high tilt, pin down on symmetrical balls is horrible for me, asymmetrical balls though, whole different story.

TWOHAND834

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Re: Pin up / down questions
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2020, 08:04:24 PM »
In general terms, a pin up ball will tend to widen the flare rings and thus create more flare potential making the ball more continuous on the backend.  Pin down will tend to tighten the flare rings making the ball transition smoother.  Overall hook will be about the same.  But generally the pin down ball will start up a touch sooner and be smoother overall.  This is what I have seen personally but experiences could be different depending on bowler's specs.
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Ed at C and R

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Re: Pin up / down questions
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2020, 08:26:57 PM »

Jesse James

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Re: Pin up / down questions
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2020, 08:27:26 AM »
More fuel for the fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbasT0OPang

As in all things, the devil is in the details. They aligned the pin down ball with the pin located on the centerline of of the ball, just below the bridge. Had they aligned the pin to the right of the fingers, equally in line (up and down) with the pin up ball......the results would have been completely different!!

The pin up ball, though it was pin up......was right of the finger holes which is always a stronger layout than pin in palm.
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northface28

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Re: Pin up / down questions
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2020, 11:12:47 PM »
In general terms, a pin up ball will tend to widen the flare rings and thus create more flare potential making the ball more continuous on the backend.  Pin down will tend to tighten the flare rings making the ball transition smoother.  Overall hook will be about the same.  But generally the pin down ball will start up a touch sooner and be smoother overall.  This is what I have seen personally but experiences could be different depending on bowler's specs.

I see the opposite. Pin down I get more flare with much wider separation. Pin up i get less overall flare with much tighter rings.
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ignitebowling

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Re: Pin up / down questions
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2020, 12:20:40 AM »
More fuel for the fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbasT0OPang

As in all things, the devil is in the details. They aligned the pin down ball with the pin located on the centerline of of the ball, just below the bridge. Had they aligned the pin to the right of the fingers, equally in line (up and down) with the pin up ball......the results would have been completely different!!

The pin up ball, though it was pin up......was right of the finger holes which is always a stronger layout than pin in palm.


Wouldn't the devil in the details be the pin up being 4" from the bowlers pap vs the pin down being 5" from the bowlers pap?  Mo loves comparing pin up vs pin down and giving the pin up stronger pin to paps then  the pin down.  In one of his famous seminars the pin up is a 3.5" pin to pap and the pin down is listed as a 4" pin to pap but if you pay attention in the video it shows the pin down is actually 5" from the pap.   The real reason for the large difference in flare for his webinar was the large variance in pin to paps.

When you mislead to try and make your point valid it's no longer "physics" it's just biased.
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Jesse James

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Re: Pin up / down questions
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2020, 04:47:17 PM »
More fuel for the fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbasT0OPang

As in all things, the devil is in the details. They aligned the pin down ball with the pin located on the centerline of of the ball, just below the bridge. Had they aligned the pin to the right of the fingers, equally in line (up and down) with the pin up ball......the results would have been completely different!!

The pin up ball, though it was pin up......was right of the finger holes which is always a stronger layout than pin in palm.


Wouldn't the devil in the details be the pin up being 4" from the bowlers pap vs the pin down being 5" from the bowlers pap?  Mo loves comparing pin up vs pin down and giving the pin up stronger pin to paps then  the pin down.  In one of his famous seminars the pin up is a 3.5" pin to pap and the pin down is listed as a 4" pin to pap but if you pay attention in the video it shows the pin down is actually 5" from the pap.   The real reason for the large difference in flare for his webinar was the large variance in pin to paps.

When you mislead to try and make your point valid it's no longer "physics" it's just biased.

No one is trying to mislead here! The devil is in the details ALWAYS! Pin to pap changes always depending on both release and whether you're using a symmetrical ball versus an asymmetrical ball. Had this demonstration been by Throwbot, we could then eliminate human error/inconsistency of release, speed, accuracy etc.

Which in laymen's terms means....physics goes out the window, and your results may vary!!! This is strictly subjective.....even when it comes to MO and his seminars as you've just proven!

I am not a two-hander. Pin down I see wider ring flare much as Northface indicated. I attribute that to my slower speed and rev dominant attributes.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2020, 04:56:11 PM by Jesse James »
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Metal_rules

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Re: Pin up / down questions
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2020, 06:19:57 PM »
Thanks for all of the comments. Keep them coming.
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johns811

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Re: Pin up / down questions
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2020, 07:21:36 AM »
I went back and forth so many times before I drilled my new Squatch I gave up and put the pin right in the ring finger. Then proceeded to shoot 300 after 10 year drought! I'm thinking of laying out all my balls like this in the future. Plus it eliminates a potential crack point.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 03:22:34 PM by johns811 »