BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Gizmo823 on December 04, 2013, 10:51:55 AM
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More and more it feels like I'm just the guy that puts holes in the ball. People come in with requests, demands, or instructions, and any questions they ask just further set or fuel their nearly predetermined idea of what they want. For a while there I actually started feeling like a professional, or somebody who was making a difference, but as soon as you start butting heads with people, your stomach drops. If people want knowledge, a pro shop is apparently the last place they go. They'll ask other coaches, other people, pop on here with questions, but they won't trust their pro shop. All I keep hearing is, "this is what I want," or "this is the way I hold the ball," or "I want to do it this way." I'm not happy or content being the monkey on the press, but at the same time I'm in no position to try and influence a change.
I know I yammer on about the same crap all the time, but I find things a lot easier to take if I have no misconceptions or unrealistic expectations about my situations. So what do you really want from your pro shop operator? I'm not saying pro shop guys all know what they're doing by any stretch, but I suppose I don't get why everybody thinks they know more than professionals who do something for a living, and honestly I'm bitter about it. I don't spend dozens of hours a week thinking, reading, learning, and writing about bowling just to drill someone's thumbhole 3 sizes too big because they like to grip it, yet still complain about that thumb being twice the size of their other one, and won't let me do a thing about it. I'm sure that sounds arrogant, but it's just insanely frustrating when people won't let you help, it's like dealing with one teenager after another.
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I use the pro shop for suggestions. Typically I am filling a spot in a tournament arsenal. I tell him the ball reactiuon I am looking for and ask him what he recommends. He knows my game. He will suggest a ball and a layout.
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From all the things you post here, I would say you are in the wrong line of work. ;D
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+1000 lmao . .
From all the things you post here, I would say you are in the wrong line of work. ;D
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At the end of the day a pro shop is just another business. Some people want to be educated, some people want holes in a ball. The key to a successful business it to please your customer. As soon as you accept that, running the pro shop will be more enjoyable.
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Great question.
Today, knowing what basic layouts and ball types work for me, I look for an effective give and take about ball and layout combinations for specific conditions or reactions I want to achieve.
MK
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Makes sense, but sometimes pleasing them and giving them what they want are two totally different things, that's what I'm having the most trouble with I think. But about the pro shop being just another business . . that may help the most. I very well may be in the wrong business. Or at least in the wrong position at the right business.
At the end of the day a pro shop is just another business. Some people want to be educated, some people want holes in a ball. The key to a successful business it to please your customer. As soon as you accept that, running the pro shop will be more enjoyable.
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What I would like to see is ala carte pricing. Charge the same price for drilling for everyone. It should not cost more to drill a ball when it is not purchased through them. It should really cost more for the customer who purchases a ball through a shop because if there are any warranty issues the pro shop takes care of it for you. When you bring a ball not purchased by the shop that is straight labor. Any problems with warranty issues, the customer has to deal with it. To have a ball drilled with grips and slugs shouldn't cost a customer $87 plus tax.
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We have ala carte pricing, but we do charge more for outside drills. It's just used as an incentive to buy from us, but I'm not really sure why it matters personally. If you want to bring a ball to me to drill, one that I have no liability on, and one that I don't have to order or stock, that's a winning deal to me.
What I would like to see is ala carte pricing. Charge the same price for drilling for everyone. It should not cost more to drill a ball when it is not purchased through them. It should really cost more for the customer who purchases a ball through a shop because if there are any warranty issues the pro shop takes care of it for you. When you bring a ball not purchased by the shop that is straight labor. Any problems with warranty issues, the customer has to deal with it. To have a ball drilled with grips and slugs shouldn't cost a customer $87 plus tax.
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Gizmo, a great question. At the other extreme, you just cannot walk in off the street without knowing something about what you want and say to the pro shop operator: "Gimme a bowling ball." I did just that a number of years ago with dreadful results. My wife gave me a holiday gift certificate to a local pro shop, so I went there and purchased a "high performance ball." I had no idea what the ball did, and I asked no questions of the pro shop operator. Since the ball was expensive, I figured that it would work. Well, the ball did not work. It was a terrible fit for my game, but I am the ONLY person to blame.
Before you purchase a ball, you MUST have some idea what you want. There is so much information readily available on the internet that it is pretty simple to research bowling equipment. I recently purchased a new ball based on internet information, speaking with other bowlers, and reading the posts of the many excellent players here on Ball Reviews. The final piece in the puzzle was the recommendation of the pro shop operator. I gave him the list of balls that I was considering. He watched me bowl a few frames and recommended a couple of balls. I selected one of the balls that he suggested (the Nail Titanium), and I have been very happy.
So I came in with some knowledge and relied on the pro shop operator to fill in my lack of technical savvy. It has worked out OK so far.
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It's hard to be in the pro-shop business these days, especially with the internet. Help the ones who want it and take the money from those who think they already know.
Track_Fanatic: If you buy new tires from Firestone, do you think Goodyear will mount and balance them for you cheaper? If pro-shops lowered their prices on drilling internet balls, they would be cutting their own throat. A pro-shop is not just a drill press.
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This isn't too difficult but I have a feeling that one of the factors might be a bit difficult for you to handle.
1. Be open when I can get to you. I understand you want regular hours but many of your customers work during those very same regular hours.
2. Run a neat and organized shop with room to sit if you have to wait behind a customer or two.
3. Have a good supply of the bowling accessories most people need.
4. Carry a good inventory of balls and grips and have the ability to get what is needed the next day if you don't stock it.
5. Be able to watch a bowler throw some balls (obviously must be in a center) and know how to layout a ball to take advantage of his skills and maybe hide some of his flaws.
6. This is the one that might be tough for you...Don't get overly technical in explaining what you are doing unless you are dealing with a guy who asks and understands what you are saying.
7. Be courteous and remember I'm choosing to spend my hard earned money with you. Treat me with respect.
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We have ala carte pricing, but we do charge more for outside drills. It's just used as an incentive to buy from us, but I'm not really sure why it matters personally. If you want to bring a ball to me to drill, one that I have no liability on, and one that I don't have to order or stock, that's a winning deal to me.
What I would like to see is ala carte pricing. Charge the same price for drilling for everyone. It should not cost more to drill a ball when it is not purchased through them. It should really cost more for the customer who purchases a ball through a shop because if there are any warranty issues the pro shop takes care of it for you. When you bring a ball not purchased by the shop that is straight labor. Any problems with warranty issues, the customer has to deal with it. To have a ball drilled with grips and slugs shouldn't cost a customer $87 plus tax.
Exactly what my point is about shops charging more. You don't have to stock or order anything. Incentive to buy from the shop? I never heard of it being an incentive. That's a good one. It's straight commission. Easy money.
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If I coming to your shop I already have and idea of what I want but will listen to what the pro shop operator has to say but words means nothing unless you earn my trust...
If you want my business you have to watch me throw a few balls and understand my style of bowling before you can suggest or really tell me anything that I might believe.. (IF YOU DONT SUGGEST WATCHING ME THROUGH A FEW BALLS DOUBT I WTILL COME BACK) THAT IS HOW YOU EARN REGULAR CUSTOMERS AND THEY ARE YOUR ADVERTISEMENT...
Everybodies bowling style is different and you have to understand that before you can suggest or drill a person a ball... That is just how I feel..
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Actually the one that sounds the toughest is the easiest haha. I speak many different "languages." I've spent nearly my whole working life interacting with people from doctors to engineers to construction workers to all manner of people that come to bowling alleys, so in person I can speak any "language," in any manner that I need to. Conversations are easy because adjustments can be made quickly, whereas when I'm writing, I tend to start technical. I can't judge or get any kind of reading from people I'm talking to on forums, so that's why I have issues here, I try to speak all languages at the same time. But it is hard to explain technical things in general terms, I've actually learned a lot just in the last couple months.
We fit the rest of the bill just fine too. Just disappointed we don't have more opportunities to help. Thanks for the reply, starting to get the feeling I've been in the business so long that I'm getting out of touch, and that's the one single thing I want to avoid.
This isn't too difficult but I have a feeling that one of the factors might be a bit difficult for you to handle.
1. Be open when I can get to you. I understand you want regular hours but many of your customers work during those very same regular hours.
2. Run a neat and organized shop with room to sit if you have to wait behind a customer or two.
3. Have a good supply of the bowling accessories most people need.
4. Carry a good inventory of balls and grips and have the ability to get what is needed the next day if you don't stock it.
5. Be able to watch a bowler throw some balls (obviously must be in a center) and know how to layout a ball to take advantage of his skills and maybe hide some of his flaws.
6. This is the one that might be tough for you...Don't get overly technical in explaining what you are doing unless you are dealing with a guy who asks and understands what you are saying.
7. Be courteous and remember I'm choosing to spend my hard earned money with you. Treat me with respect.
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Gizmo, I understand your frustration. You take pride in your expertise, and I sure it's no fun to simply drill according to dictated instructions you know are wrong.
All you can do is politely ask questions for clarification, and suggest they consider possible alternatives. It's a tightrope doing this in a way that's not threatening. But if people believe you're offering advice in their best interests, and there is no judgement if you go strictly with what they want, you should end up with a repeat customer. Over time, they'll be more open your suggestions.
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I hate to say it, but welcome to the biggest drawback of the internet. I mean, think about it.
When you needed to know something about a bit of history, previously we would do the active version of Googling: we talked to the librarian who directed us to the right place in the Card Catalog.
Nowadays? Google or Wikipedia.
If I wanted to read the news in my hometown, previously, I would still have to subscribe to the newspaper and have it sent to me, out of state.
Nowadays? their website.
If I wanted to go to a good source for what I want my bowling gear to do based on an idea I have in my head, previously, I would go to my pro shop..
Nowadays, we have access directly to ball reps, pro/amateur staff, and forums like these who can tell you how it works for them..
The problem (and a big one at that) with any of the latter solutions, most of them can not be verified to be correct. Anyone can influence a google search; anyone can modify Wikipedia; Newspapers can charge serious money for an online subscription, or barely give you a taste of what you are looking for.. Forums like these, are still mainly anonymous. We open ourselves up to being real, but how do we really know?
The Pro shop is still that source that is verified, because the owner and people in it should be up to date on their knowledge and skill either in drilling the gear, or the properties of a given ball, etc. That is what I truly want from a pro shop operator.
With that said, I can tell you what I do NOT want:
- an operator who pushes you only to one type of gear from X company. This may be because they are on staff with that company, and the gear they offer doesn't line up properly with your game.
- Lack of Variety. They should be comfortable with drilling any ball for you from any brand, and have at least some decent knowledge of the brands they offer in their shop. In short, a pro shop shouldn't limit themselves to a company's brand or brands under that company's umbrella.
- Lack of Neutrality. A bowler shouldn't feel or get the feeling of partiality when ordering purchasing a ball from a shop that normally doesn't sell those balls. I know the prop shop operator doesn't maliciously try to do this, but when prime space is a commodity nowadays (especially thanks to the BowlMor fiasco), space is limited and a pro shop owner can't stock every ball in his shop. But that doesn't mean that they can't get in a ball that a bowler orders, know the characteristics of that ball (it's available on that maker's site), and punch it up. A pro shop operator's goal is to have and keep repeating customers; they shouldn't inadvertently alienate their repeat customers by aligning more to a company that that bowler may not like or use.
- Lack of Availability. Again, this goes back to space for a pro shop. It might just be where I'm at in NorCal, but everywhere else I've lived, a pro shop operator has always had PLENTY of stock on hand, and rarely has had to order it from another supplier. If I purchased a ball, within 45 minutes, I walked out of the store, ball in hand. There was only one time outside of NorCal when I had to wait, and that was because the shop ran out of Faball Blue Hammers, and weren't getting in their supply (they ordered 120) of them until the following week. that was in Omaha at that time. Every ball I purchased afterwards was already in stock at that shop.
I never had that problem in Vegas.
Here in NorCal? You buy the ball, they order it, wait 2 - 3 days for it to come in, then punch it up. Again, I know that space is limited, but it is really different and unusual to be doing that. The only place up here where I have not had that problem, was the Stadium, though in the Stadium's defense, either the shop was run by actual reps from the company, or were run by the operators of the pro shop I had in Vegas, which I already had rapport with anyway.
Personal experience for me: This is why when I go back home to Omaha, and on the long shot that I would need something punched up, Tom Kelley's pro shop has never let me down. When you walk into the place and see their ball lineup, you see EBI gear sitting next to Brunswick gear sitting next to Storm/Roto gear, etc. etc. They know their stuff about each and every ball there, and aren't afraid to get you what you want, regardless of brand or company. That made them already come across as knowledgeable in all the brands that they sell.
The fit was already great; the fact you could walk out with the ball you want was even better. The knowledge, even better. Cross company? bonus. Comparable prices? given.
Neutrality, availability, variety, and caters to all bowlers using any manufacturer. That's what's needed.
BL.
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Thanks for the replies. We have storage space and turnover problems. Most of the time we just order a new ball, and once the one on the wall sells, we don't order it again (unless it happened quickly), because once it's been on the wall for 2 weeks, nobody is interested anymore. I don't think our speed is as good as it could be, partially because we have 6 shops and we have one manager who places all the orders together, it's simpler and more efficient (for us anyway). Then we have an "underpromise-overdeliver" policy in place to make sure we always have things ready or finished by when we say they'll be done, but more often than not that results in adding a day to how long it should take. Not a big fan of that, but it's almost worse to have people come in and have to tell them it's not done yet. Some of it's a catch 22, lol that really doesn't work for me, but I'm just generally anal and unrealistic. The idea that something can't be improved or made better goes against my programming
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I would love for a pro shop operator to actually watch me throw some balls, and tell me what my pap, tilt, and rotation are! Never had any of the ones I been to do this! Finally, actually remember me when I come back to the shop. True story, been to a shop several times with the same owner/operator. Had a few balls drilled there. Went in the other day and bought something from him and he introduced himself, shook my hand and said "good to meet ya". WTF!
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When it comes to my pro shop, I think of myself as an intermediate customer (I know enough about ball motion, etc. to make informed-ish decisions, but always ask for input first). As such, I want the following from the operator:
-Knowledge of the balls/drilling. If I need/want a new ball, I'm likely to come in and say "I'm thinking something like X drilled like so to do *this*, what do you think?" If my ball driller always just wanted to punch a 4x4 or something, I wouldn't think he truly was considering how I bowl. His suggestions always have to do with the way my ball tracks, and that's why I take my business to him.
-A timely service line. I don't expect to walk in and have a ball punched up while I'm there. I do expect that my ball is in a line, and the line will be taken in order. If I have to wait two weeks when I'm quoted two days, I'm going to feel like I'm being punished for being a considerate customer instead of an a-hole that wants it RIGHT NOW.
-Things are done right. True story: I took my first trip to the OC this year and was in the pro shop several times asking about what to expect, procedures for checking in my equipment, etc. Before I left I brought my stuff to the shop to be weighed and checked like they would, to make sure there are no surprises. Everything checks out fine. Get to Reno, and one of my balls has a weight hole that is too big (it's a crater, really). Not only that, but it has almost 6 ounces of bottom weight. Ball driller never should have given me the ball like that to begin with, and certainly should have caught it when I was getting ready for the trip. If your informed customers can't trust that their equipment comes out of your shop legal, they'll go somewhere else.
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Everyone's expectations of a good pro shop are right on. The problem from the other side is that the pro shop operator spends all the time and effort to learn the latest and greatest, but it is a very small percentage of the actual business. 90% of the customers that come in the pro shop don't care about any of this and won't pay for it. So the shop is stuck in the situation that they can't charge the price they need to for their skill level. And if they do people think they are gouging them since the guy down the street will do it for $20 less.
A la carte pricing has been mentioned and watching a person bowl and figuring specs has been mentioned. Most people expect such things to be included in the price to drill a ball. If a shop spends the time to discuss balls and layouts, watches you bowl, drills a ball, and then works it out shouldn't all that be a la carte also? The other problem from a shop standpoint with a la carte pricing is you have to explain it to every person that walks in the door. Most people expect the price on the wall to include drilling since you can't use the ball without holes.
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Anyone that has any knowledge about the industry knows that stocking large quantities and wide varieties of bowling balls is suicide for a small pro shop. A few years ago there was an article written about the number of bowling balls released that particular year and I want to say the number was something like 150. Since that time, more companies have popped up like Jet, Lordfield, and Radical. There is no way to stock everything in every weight, especially when something new is released every few months. Like Gizmo said, if it sits on the shelf for more than 2 weeks, nobody will be interested. Unless of course you drop the price below your cost. It just makes more sense to order as needed and minimize overhead. Many distributors will do one day delivery from what I understand, or if the shop is lucky enough to be close to a distributor, they could go pick it up that same day if it's in stock.
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Get to Reno, and one of my balls has a weight hole that is too big (it's a crater, really). Not only that, but it has almost 6 ounces of bottom weight. Ball driller never should have given me the ball like that to begin with, and certainly should have caught it when I was getting ready for the trip.
WOW! The only way I can think of for that to happen is if the ball was drilled with the cg on the bottom. That would either be a major mistake on the driller's part or a mismarked cg, either way it should have been caught when he weighed the ball before giving it to you. -- JohnP
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A la carte pricing has been mentioned and watching a person bowl and figuring specs has been mentioned. Most people expect such things to be included in the price to drill a ball. If a shop spends the time to discuss balls and layouts, watches you bowl, drills a ball, and then works it out shouldn't all that be a la carte also? The other problem from a shop standpoint with a la carte pricing is you have to explain it to every person that walks in the door. Most people expect the price on the wall to include drilling since you can't use the ball without holes.
I completely agree. I recently paid $180.00 for the Nail Titanium and other services at my local pro shop. Here is what I got for the $$$: 30 minutes of the proprietor's time watching me bowl and discussing ball options. Drilling the NT including finger and thumb inserts. The pro shop operator also installed a thumb insert in one of my other balls.
The pro shop did not make much $$$ on this transaction. The value to me was far more than $180.00. How much? I am not sure but more than $180.00.
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The only problem is now that I'm waiting for the screaming from other people and the boasts of "Wow, I got a Nail Titanium a few weeks ago with all that out the door for $130. You got screwed man." Lol obviously I support your comments though.
A la carte pricing has been mentioned and watching a person bowl and figuring specs has been mentioned. Most people expect such things to be included in the price to drill a ball. If a shop spends the time to discuss balls and layouts, watches you bowl, drills a ball, and then works it out shouldn't all that be a la carte also? The other problem from a shop standpoint with a la carte pricing is you have to explain it to every person that walks in the door. Most people expect the price on the wall to include drilling since you can't use the ball without holes.
I completely agree. I recently paid $180.00 for the Nail Titanium and other services at my local pro shop. Here is what I got for the $$$: 30 minutes of the proprietor's time watching me bowl and discussing ball options. Drilling the NT including finger and thumb inserts. The pro shop operator also installed a thumb insert in one of my other balls.
The pro shop did not make much $$$ on this transaction. The value to me was far more than $180.00. How much? I am not sure but more than $180.00.
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Gizmo, thanks for the note. I did not shop around for the new ball. I am sure that I could have saved a few $$$, but I went to a local shop in which I have a lot of faith. You cannot put a price on the tips that you get from the pro who watches you bowl several frames.
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Exactly. Yeah, everybody wants to get a deal, I get that. But you get what you pay for.
Gizmo, thanks for the note. I did not shop around for the new ball. I am sure that I could have saved a few $$$, but I went to a local shop in which I have a lot of faith. You cannot put a price on the tips that you get from the pro who watches you bowl several frames.
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Exactly. Yeah, everybody wants to get a deal, I get that. But you get what you pay for.
Gizmo, thanks for the note. I did not shop around for the new ball. I am sure that I could have saved a few $$$, but I went to a local shop in which I have a lot of faith. You cannot put a price on the tips that you get from the pro who watches you bowl several frames.
I disagree. You don't always get what you pay for. I've been screwed by shops who like to gouge you for not buying a ball from them. Everyone has their own experience though and unfortunately I've gone to a few shops that were 'highly recommended'. I'm thinking the next time I try a shop I am going to ask exactly what are you going to do for me that warrants for charging exorbitant prices for drilling if not buying a ball from them? I'm sure I will get the WTF look but hey, as stated in prior posts it's your hard earned money you are giving them and expect quality and expertise. But what they may consider quality or expertise may not really be that.
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Well, good points, I have to agree. However you may be looking at the drilling the wrong way. You're looking at the drilling price on a ball bought from the shop (inside drill) as the standard, and an outside drill as a raise, rather than the outside drill as the standard, and the inside drill as a discount with a purchase. That's just a staple of retail. Buy one get one half off, or what have you. There are a lot of costs involved in drilling a ball, namely the drill press, bits which are incredibly expensive, not to mention sharpening them costs nearly 10 dollars a bit now, along with all the tools required to finish the ball, then there's the labor as well. But I can see it from both sides. 60 dollars out the door to me sounds extremely fair and maybe even cheap from the business side, but from the customer side it sounds exorbitant. And yeah, there are tons of hack jobs that charge that much because it's the going rate, not because the service is worth that. I definitely get where you're coming from, I'd hate to be a customer in the current state of things.
Exactly. Yeah, everybody wants to get a deal, I get that. But you get what you pay for.
Gizmo, thanks for the note. I did not shop around for the new ball. I am sure that I could have saved a few $$$, but I went to a local shop in which I have a lot of faith. You cannot put a price on the tips that you get from the pro who watches you bowl several frames.
I disagree. You don't always get what you pay for. I've been screwed by shops who like to gouge you for not buying a ball from them. Everyone has their own experience though and unfortunately I've gone to a few shops that were 'highly recommended'. I'm thinking the next time I try a shop I am going to ask exactly what are you going to do for me that warrants for charging exorbitant prices for drilling if not buying a ball from them? I'm sure I will get the WTF look but hey, as stated in prior posts it's your hard earned money you are giving them and expect quality and expertise. But what they may consider quality or expertise may not really be that.
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$60 with inserts is not enough if you are dealing with a person face to face. Charging that little is just creating a slow death for your business.
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We charge 45 for an outside drill, 5.50 apiece for inserts, 14 for a thumb slug, 18 apiece for the Turbo Switch Grip system, and 20 apiece for the IT. Again, considering there are some people I've spent several hours a week with over the last couple months, to us it doesn't sound like much, but the customer feels like they're getting bent over . . I hate telling people the price because I know that 95% of the time the reaction isn't going to be pleasant. Now if the business were to close, all the sudden there would be a problem, I already get enough complaints that I don't work during the summer.
$60 with inserts is not enough if you are dealing with a person face to face. Charging that little is just creating a slow death for your business.
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I think if I were to ever go back in to the pro shop business (I can't believe I just typed that) I would offer different levels of fittings/consultations just like the high end golf fitters do. They do driver/woods/irons/wedges/putter/whole bag/gap fittings, ect. I think a good pro shop in a bowling center good do this with a good video setup.
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$60 with inserts is not enough if you are dealing with a person face to face. Charging that little is just creating a slow death for your business.
why does everyone feel they need to bend people over with prices over basically 4 holes and some glue? my pro shop person charges about $50 (for a complete job)...and only $35 for me because i don't use a thumb slug and get my finger tips from my pro shop guy...and they always have a line out the door...
and $5.50 PER insert? yeah where i go i can get BOTH for $4
i guess i just don't see the reason for such huge prices...
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There is much more to drilling a ball than 4 holes and glue. Read the expectations of the people in this thread. A business can't survive taking in $35 an hour. If the pro shop charges $35 to drill a ball and they have a line out the door they should raise prices.
Everyone wants Saks service and Walmart prices. If you expect premium services you should expect to pay premium prices.
When I drilled online balls we charged more than that and I never had to see a customer face to face and never worked out a ball.
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There is much more to drilling a ball than 4 holes and glue. Read the expectations of the people in this thread. A business can't survive taking in $35 an hour. If the pro shop charges $35 to drill a ball and they have a line out the door they should raise prices.
Everyone wants Saks service and Walmart prices. If you expect premium services you should expect to pay premium prices.
When I drilled online balls we charged more than that and I never had to see a customer face to face and never worked out a ball.
I think what he is trying to say is that they should apply the Walmart effect to drilling a ball: charge less for the drill and fitting, but make up the price difference in volume. That way, you slightly undersell your competition, and make up the loss from that underselling by drilling more. The lower cost will bring in the demand (customers).
BL.
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There is much more to drilling a ball than 4 holes and glue. Read the expectations of the people in this thread. A business can't survive taking in $35 an hour. If the pro shop charges $35 to drill a ball and they have a line out the door they should raise prices.
Everyone wants Saks service and Walmart prices. If you expect premium services you should expect to pay premium prices.
When I drilled online balls we charged more than that and I never had to see a customer face to face and never worked out a ball.
i would rather charge $50 and see 15 people a day then charge $85 and see 2 and have everyone know you are gonna pay out the butt for something so simple...
you drill the ball and then insert the finger tips and then it is good to go down the lane correct? or am i missing some big secret? like i said you will never be able to justify me spending out the anus for something so trivial
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Read the thread and see what expectations are for a good pro shop. You can't provide those services for $35. It just doesn't work. To discuss what a customer wants, measure a hand, weigh the ball, lay it out, drill, work out, re-weigh, and cash somebody out your looking at an hour, longer it you go watch them bowl. If your business only brings in $35 for doing all that, you're gonna eat Ramen Noodles every night.
The guys on tour pay $35 plus $5 per oval and $5 per slug. No layouts, no finish work. Holes in the ball, off the press, back in the box. Done.
You expect prices cheaper than that and the knowledge of the shop to lay it out and work it out for you. Then you probably pay with a credit card to ice the cake.
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Well and I get that, BUT, why would we charge so much for something if it's just a few holes and some glue? Probably the single biggest factor is whether the owner operates the shop, or has an employee do it. An employee basically takes all the profit. If one guy just has one shop that he runs, he's just paying himself. My boss has 6 shops, and obviously he can't run them all himself. The employees are a major operational cost. That's what's hard for us to take, that customer mindset of "if I don't understand it, it must not be right." It's like questioning your doctor, or mechanic, or hvac tech when you're not in any of those fields, have any experience in them, or really know what it's about. If the customer doesn't get why something is the way it is, then all the sudden we don't know what we're doing and we're idiots. It feels like a teenager mentality. They feel like they get it and they know everything, so if they don't agree with their parent on something, or don't understand why they have a curfew, or can't do this or that, then the parent is the one that's wrong. It's like you think that we haven't considered all these simple things. We are in the business, and pro shops specifically are just really in business to stay open, because very few of them actually do better than breaking even.
I can't begin to describe the ridiculous amount of time I've spent reading and listening and learning for the last 8 solid years, and I've still got a long way to go. If it was just putting some holes in the ball and a little bit of glue, you could train a monkey to do that. Read this: http://www.bowl.com/uploadedFiles/Equip_and_Specs/Equip_and_Specs_Home/08ballmotionstudy.pdf It's USBC's ball motion study. We have to know, understand, and interpret all that, because it all factors into how your ball reacts and how we should drill it. And that's just understanding ball motion, tip of the iceberg. Our drill press is admittedly top of the line, but it cost 15,000 at the time. I have no idea what bits are now, but last time I knew they were about 35-40 bucks apiece. We have 45 of them. It costs about 8 or 9 bucks to sharpen each bit. Then we have finishing tools, such as rasps, bevel knives, electric disc sanders, etc. Aside from that we have other big things like the ball spinner and the haus resurfacing machine. Not to mention just the sheer amount of time, that's really where it's at. Not much different than going to a mechanic, the parts usually don't cost that much, it's the labor that costs. Just because you get things cheaper doesn't mean that's the standard, you could just be getting a good deal on price. But we also don't sell balls anywhere near retail. The most expensive ball we sell is the Byte at 185.
The whole volume idea doesn't work either. Even if we sold it for 160 . . it's still 160 bucks. A lot of money is a lot of money period, and people aren't spending it on bowling. Now I'm not trying to be a jackass and shove stuff in your face, because I've been on the other side, and I even wince myself when I go to put holes in something for me, because it's STILL pretty expensive. I'm simply explaining that there's a reason for it.
There is much more to drilling a ball than 4 holes and glue. Read the expectations of the people in this thread. A business can't survive taking in $35 an hour. If the pro shop charges $35 to drill a ball and they have a line out the door they should raise prices.
Everyone wants Saks service and Walmart prices. If you expect premium services you should expect to pay premium prices.
When I drilled online balls we charged more than that and I never had to see a customer face to face and never worked out a ball.
i would rather charge $50 and see 15 people a day then charge $85 and see 2 and have everyone know you are gonna pay out the butt for something so simple...
you drill the ball and then insert the finger tips and then it is good to go down the lane correct? or am i missing some big secret? like i said you will never be able to justify me spending out the anus for something so trivial
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And I've been in about 20% of the pro shops in the country. I can safely count on one hand, with a couple fingers left over, the number of shops that drill anywhere near 15 balls a day. And that was when there were a LOT more balls being sold then there are now.
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Read the thread and see what expectations are for a good pro shop. You can't provide those services for $35. It just doesn't work. To discuss what a customer wants, measure a hand, weigh the ball, lay it out, drill, work out, re-weigh, and cash somebody out your looking at an hour, longer it you go watch them bowl. If your business only brings in $35 for doing all that, you're gonna eat Ramen Noodles every night.
The guys on tour pay $35 plus $5 per oval and $5 per slug. No layouts, no finish work. Holes in the ball, off the press, back in the box. Done.
You expect prices cheaper than that and the knowledge of the shop to lay it out and work it out for you. Then you probably pay with a credit card to ice the cake.
are you kidding me? knowledge for what? all i have to do is tell my guy what i wanna see and his does a lay out that fits that area...10 seconds and he does it...or i go off my old lay-outs that work for me...not brain surgery...
all told i have less then $40 in my ball being lane ready...and to be honest if i had to pay these prices you claim are fair i think i would just quit...it's why i don't support the guy that does it in my house...he wants 65 just to touch it...
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This will get the pot boiling........
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To stay competitive, That is, sell balls. The Pro Shop operator has to massage the egos of the bowlers. Tell the no bodies that they are great and will be greater with his latest reccomendations and the latest ball. Same with the "higher" average bowlers. Stroke the ego and they will buy anything. The object of the Proshop is not to help the bowler, it's to make money. Otherwise you wouldn't be there It's a lovely idea that the proshop operator is there to just help the poor bowler. He generally could care less after you've bought the ball and walked out the door. There is no way a proshop operator can help a bowler who sprays a ball all over the lane. His only hope is to give them a reasonably good fit and hope like hell they bowl reasonably with it
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suhoney, I'm going to guess Applebees is you're idea of fine dining, and they have chefs there that are cooking your food.
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suhoney, I'm going to guess Applebees is you're idea of fine dining, and they have chefs there that are cooking your food.
and im going to guess you are just a blowhard..so i will break this down for you again...how hard is this...i walk into my pro shop, tell them i would like something for good back end, they measure me, they drill me, they add finger tips, i hit the lanes...40 mins and done...what part of this are you claiming deserves to be a hundred dollar process? what part of this are you claiming takes some otherworldly skill?
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If every ball you own is laid out the same and the pro shop operator can drill every ball with the same fit I doubt you need much from the PSO. Other than three holes with correct pitches.
Sorry, I am not in that category I want my PAP figured in with different layouts and possible x holes to give me different ball motions. My PSO has a DeTerminator and I know what my dual angle layouts (drilling angle) are with symmetrical; balls and their resulting PSA's. This is way beyond.... three holes where do you want 'em? ;)
Seems to me I read recently that some BR users get all their equipment laid out same and then I can understand their issue with higher PSO pricing. You may also get wacky ball motion with every ball laid out the same but you got what you paid for. :)
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You may also get wacky ball motion with every ball laid out the same but you got what you paid for. :)
think im doing just fine with my "wonky" set up...im averaging 200 in just 2 years of throwing a hook...i have no issues with the way i do things now so why get gouged for something i don't really need?
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You may also get wacky ball motion with every ball laid out the same but you got what you paid for. :)
think im doing just fine with my "wonky" set up...im averaging 200 in just 2 years of throwing a hook...i have no issues with the way i do things now so why get gouged for something i don't really need?
http://www.ballreviews.com/roto-grip/wrecker-breaking-way-to-earlyhelp-t299223.0.html
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Re: wrecker breaking WAY to early...help?
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2013, 01:55:50 AM »
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Quote from: batbowler on December 01, 2013, 01:11:05 PM
What type of lay-out do you have on these? Is the Wrecker similar to the other balls that you're able to use? Just my $.02, Bruce
all my balls are pin beside my finger tips...
If you are happy fine. If others want more from their PSO then it's going to cost more. Fair price for amount of time spent with more tools at their disposal than many drillers with more experience.
Here's mine. http://robbaileysproshop.com/ 2 lanes at his pro shop. 2 Ebonite Oval digital mill drills, 2 Haus machines, DeTerminator. Huge difference in his ability vs. a guy with a drill in his garage.
There are drillers and there are pro shop operators.
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one ball that just wouldn't work for me is your comeback? so every ball anyone has ever bought just kills it on the lanes? highly doubtful...we all have a dud ball and the wrecker is mine...matter of fact i know 2 other people in my house that hate the wrecker and can't do jack with it
i see posts on here all the time of people saying this ball won't do this for me or this ball just wasn't what i was expecting...that's the wrecker for me
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I guess I should do my research before having a debate. Anyone who would describe their ball layouts as "all my balls are pin beside my finger tips…" or goes in telling the shop "i would like something for good back end" isn't going to know the difference of what a good pro shop is or isn't. But that person who knows absolutely about the pro shop business is going to debate the business side of it with someone who's been in the industry for almost 30 years. Go to work Monday and ask your boss how long he will stay in business if he only brings in $35 for an hour of work.
If and when your game ever gets to a point were you can actually see the difference in ball motion you're going to need more than holes in a ball with a pin besides your finger tips. Expect to pay somebody more than $35 for this.
Keep your expectations low and you will be satisfied with your 3 holes for $35.
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I guess I should do my research before having a debate. Anyone who would describe their ball layouts as "all my balls are pin beside my finger tips…" or goes in telling the shop "i would like something for good back end" isn't going to know the difference of what a good pro shop is or isn't. But that person who knows absolutely about the pro shop business is going to debate the business side of it with someone who's been in the industry for almost 30 years. Go to work Monday and ask your boss how long he will stay in business if he only brings in $35 for an hour of work.
If and when your game ever gets to a point were you can actually see the difference in ball motion you're going to need more than holes in a ball with a pin besides your finger tips. Expect to pay somebody more than $35 for this.
Keep your expectations low and you will be satisfied with your 3 holes for $35.
like i said blowhard know it all...what expectations do you want from me? im a freaking house bowler not a pba pro...all i need is a ball drilled with the lay out that i like and know what it will do
but i am curious now if i go get one of these magical layouts you are sprouting off about if my ball will suddenly shoot flames out of it halfway down the lane and explode the pins so my average will rocket to 250..not likely
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Apparently you don't get what all goes into selecting a ball that has "good backend." Number one, what is your idea of good backend? Because everybody has a different idea of what that is. Did you read the link I provided? The one filled with physics and quadratic equations? Once again, just because you don't understand it, you who "has only been throwing a hook for 2 years," that automatically means the entire industry has no clue what they're doing? There's absolutely no way possible that YOU'RE the one that doesn't get it? You know nothing about it, and because you don't get it, the experienced professionals are the ones that have to be wrong . . You might as well say Harrison Ford knows nothing about acting, JJ Abrams knows nothing about directing, Walter Ray Williams Jr knows nothing about winning tournaments, and Jeff Gordon knows nothing about racing, because if somebody tells you something and you don't get it or don't agree, they're the idiot.
So if your boss asks you to work for half your salary next time you go into work because he doesn't need you to do much that day, you'd agree to that? Same logic you're dropping on us here.
I guess I should do my research before having a debate. Anyone who would describe their ball layouts as "all my balls are pin beside my finger tips…" or goes in telling the shop "i would like something for good back end" isn't going to know the difference of what a good pro shop is or isn't. But that person who knows absolutely about the pro shop business is going to debate the business side of it with someone who's been in the industry for almost 30 years. Go to work Monday and ask your boss how long he will stay in business if he only brings in $35 for an hour of work.
If and when your game ever gets to a point were you can actually see the difference in ball motion you're going to need more than holes in a ball with a pin besides your finger tips. Expect to pay somebody more than $35 for this.
Keep your expectations low and you will be satisfied with your 3 holes for $35.
like i said blowhard know it all...what expectations do you want from me? im a freaking house bowler not a pba pro...all i need is a ball drilled with the lay out that i like and know what it will do
but i am curious now if i go get one of these magical layouts you are sprouting off about if my ball will suddenly shoot flames out of it halfway down the lane and explode the pins so my average will rocket to 250..not likely
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suhoney, you're obviously the kind of person that thinks because somebody spent an hour with you and you paid them $35, that person is making $35 an hour. When you go to work Monday morning ask your boss how much it cost them for you to work there. It's pretty apparent you know nothing about running a business and the expenses involved.
Just so you are sure of your place, you are the typical pro shop customer. You don't know anything, expect everything and want it done for next to nothing.
And when it comes to the pro shop I am a blowhard know it all. And you can ask every shop I visit, if they sell high end balls for less than $200 or drill a ball for less than $60 I tell them they are doing themselves a disservice.
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Exactly. Several years ago I worked in construction inspection, and at the time I was making 13.50 an hour. How much was my company charging me out for? 56 an hour. I also carried around 6000 bucks worth of testing equipment. So if I'm drilling a ball for you (suhoney) on our 15,000 dollar drill press, using 3 different 40 dollar apiece bits, several assorted tools to finish the beveling and fine tuning, the total of which is near 100 dollars, and then my boss still has to pay me on top of that, you know how many balls you have to drill just to break even on that? What about if you want us to sand or polish a ball using our 2500 dollar spinner? A resurface on the 3500 dollar haus?
I'll tell you what, start your own shop, buy all that equipment, sell stuff as cheap as you want to, and tell me how long you stay in business. Pro shops aren't charging that much because they want to live the high life, they're charging that much just to keep the doors open. I work at the shop because I love bowling, but definitely not because of the pay.
suhoney, you're obviously the kind of person that thinks because somebody spent an hour with you and you paid them $35, that person is making $35 an hour. When you go to work Monday morning ask your boss how much it cost them for you to work there. It's pretty apparent you know nothing about running a business and the expenses involved.
Just so you are sure of your place, you are the typical pro shop customer. You don't know anything, expect everything and want it done for next to nothing.
And when it comes to the pro shop I am a blowhard know it all. And you can ask every shop I visit, if they sell high end balls for less than $200 or drill a ball for less than $60 I tell them they are doing themselves a disservice.
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You spend $2500 on a ball spinner? That's hilarious.
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It was an estimate, I have no idea how much it cost, lol. But it's not a cheap home job, everything we have in here is top of the line, best you can get, brand new from Jayhawk (when it was purchased). Say you've got a super cheap one that cost 500. How many 3 buck sanding jobs does it take just to pay it off? Not including the price of abralon pads?
You spend $2500 on a ball spinner? That's hilarious.
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The haus cost estimate is pretty close I'd imagine. The regular spinner I'm hoping he didn't go over $350 for.
Yes there's a lot of cost in owning a shop and everything has to be factored in. A lot of companies take advantage of shops or future shops by over selling them on equipment. Used on a lot of things can be the much smarter route to go. Many people can't factor in that if they pay $15k on a press and bits how many bowling balls they need to drill in order to pay for just the press.
That's part of the reason so many proshops both home and in center that never make it. Factor other needed tools, inventory, and labor and you have a big hurdle to overcome getting off the ground in a small profit industry.
I just bought a 15lb nib Ringer Platinum off ebay for $71 shipped. Thats below my cost. Not many other industries where that happens.
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Yeap.
Spinner btw is the dual speed w/cabinet from Jayhawk.
The haus cost estimate is pretty close I'd imagine. The regular spinner I'm hoping he didn't go over $350 for.
Yes there's a lot of cost in owning a shop and everything has to be factored in. A lot of companies take advantage of shops or future shops by over selling them on equipment. Used on a lot of things can be the much smarter route to go. Many people can't factor in that if they pay $15k on a press and bits how many bowling balls they need to drill in order to pay for just the press.
That's part of the reason so many proshops both home and in center that never make it. Factor other needed tools, inventory, and labor and you have a big hurdle to overcome getting off the ground in a small profit industry.
I just bought a 15lb nib Ringer Platinum off ebay for $71 shipped. Thats below my cost. Not many other industries where that happens.
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You are right on the spinner. $1595 for a spinner with cabinet. It is so funny its sickening. Not sure why you need dual speeds but I'm sure "they" give a good reason. Only $995 for the spinner minus the cabinet.
I can't imagine why anyone would buy that set-up without looking around first and going a different route.
I will never understand some people and some things but the profit on that set up is HUGE. I'm sure they offer finnancing which makes it even better for Jayhawk.
If you build it and jackup the price they will come.
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A $4-500 spinner is a necessity in a shop. A $1500 spinner is a luxury. Just like an $8000 drill press. The busiest shop I've ever been in has 2 presses with Rudell jigs. And even he charges more than $35 to drill a ball.
The big racket is getting everyone hooked on Abralon pads. And I can't even count how many guys I see used them to do plug work.
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Current Hammer brand manager Jeff Ussery founded the shop I work in, so he bought everything top of the line when he started, he'd planned on being here a lot longer I think, but when a brand wants to make you their manager, you say yes, lol.
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We charge 45 for an outside drill, 5.50 apiece for inserts, 14 for a thumb slug, 18 apiece for the Turbo Switch Grip system, and 20 apiece for the IT. Again, considering there are some people I've spent several hours a week with over the last couple months, to us it doesn't sound like much, but the customer feels like they're getting bent over . . I hate telling people the price because I know that 95% of the time the reaction isn't going to be pleasant. Now if the business were to close, all the sudden there would be a problem, I already get enough complaints that I don't work during the summer.
$60 with inserts is not enough if you are dealing with a person face to face. Charging that little is just creating a slow death for your business.
35 is too low but your 80 bucks is a little high
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It is relative to the market. Usually the price is $35 to drill and doesn't include inersts ect. Some places charge more ($70-80) and that includes inserts ect. Typically when buying a hp ball from a proshop in most markets the final price is $220-250 out the door. You may get there in different ways either with cheaper drilling and higher accessories cost or visa versa. Final price comes out about the same.
The online shops and sites have created a more ala carte market. The prices haven't really changed much, preception has.
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I was curious so I have taken the time to read all of the post to this thread.
First, I have a shop set up in my basement. I did this because the shop in our small city takes weeks to drill balls and the shops I went to about 50 miles away would not take the time to measure my PAP or otherwise lay out balls based in my bowling style. Still, they charge premium prices--225-250 out the door for high performance balls; 65-85 for drilling with grips and slug.
Knowing the cost of equipment and the time that it takes to properly lay out and drill a ball, 65-75 dollars for a layout with grips and slug is reasonable, figuring in the cost of equipment and the labor cost involved.
I have family and friends that ask me to drill for them all of the time. I generally will not do it because I know that it takes at least 30 to 45 minutes and it would be cheaper for me to split the cost with them paying the proshop than for me to do the work for them. I will help them select balls and help them with layouts, but from a time standpoint, the proshop's charge for drilling is pretty reasonable.
Ultimately, I think that a proshop should give the consumer what he wants and is able and willing to pay for. If you think that what they ask for is not going to serve the need that they are attempting to serve, tell them and give them other possible options. In the end, do what they ask with a smile. If you prove to be right and were not assinine in telling them, they will learn to trust you and you may make a customer for life. Plus they will tell their friends about you.
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Still, they charge premium prices--225-250 out the door for high performance balls;
seriously how can they justify this when you could just go online and get it for 75 bucks cheaper?
matter of fact just saw this the other week at my local house...a team mate of mine paid $150 for a freak n frantic...it's a $100 anywhere online and i could have got it off my guy for $85...
utter insanity...
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Still, they charge premium prices--225-250 out the door for high performance balls;
seriously how can they justify this when you could just go online and get it for 75 bucks cheaper?
matter of fact just saw this the other week at my local house...a team mate of mine paid $150 for a freak n frantic...it's a $100 anywhere online and i could have got it off my guy for $85...
utter insanity...
It might be funny for most to undercut brick and mortar proshops by buying online then shopping for the cheapest labor but this is my livelihood, my life, my paycheck. Everyone wants balls for extremely cheap and undercut the labor that goes into it. You want the quality of Mo Pinel with the price of basement drilling bob.
Well, lets play with your check. Let your boss take 20% off your check with no means of making that money up and see how quick you are to preach the same gospel. Online shops can sell balls at slightly above cost because the sell 100 of them in a week. the avg hp balls cost is around 120 and online shops can sell them for 150, whereas, b-n-m sells it for 220 out of the door. $30 profit x 100 balls equates into a decent profit for ball selling.
Ok, now, do the same for b-n-m. except they may sell 15-25 balls in a week if it's a high volume shop + the cost of equipment, rent, employees, restock, and that profit gets eaten up rather quickly.
I just find it rather sickening that this is the way the game has gone. I remember in the mid 90's when balls were even more expensive than they are now and there were no online shops. People paid 220 or more for just the hp ball no drilling.
Oh well, I guess eventually all brick and mortar shops will go by the waste side and we will entrust some random fool behind a press that thinks 3 holes in a ball makes you a good driller. I have random K-Mart flashbacks thoughts when it comes to that. I don't know about you but I like knowing that my driller has experience and can give me a warranty on my drilled equipment. I also like being fitted by someone who knows more than me and can give advice rather than me telling them what their job is.
Before, I went into the business. I bought balls almost exclusively through the proshop the only time I bought online is if it were something that my home shop never exclusively carried and I still paid the price of drilling.
I know that going to a knowledgeable shop can lead to long journeys but I live in Richmond, Va. and Mo Pinel frequents Mullan's Pro Shop which is also in Richmond. Mo has had customers from as far as Memphis, TN and Atlanta, Ga frequent to be fitted, drilled a few balls, got a lesson and went off on their way.
The Moral of that story as told to me by Mo Pinel, Parker Bohn III, Kim Terrell, and many other pro's and great amateurs, " You can't beat a bad fit or reaction, it doesn't take much time to get all the info needed to properly fit and layout a ball for anyone. And just because you think you do, doesn't mean you do. Don't think, KNOW!"
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Still, they charge premium prices--225-250 out the door for high performance balls;
seriously how can they justify this when you could just go online and get it for 75 bucks cheaper?
matter of fact just saw this the other week at my local house...a team mate of mine paid $150 for a freak n frantic...it's a $100 anywhere online and i could have got it off my guy for $85...
utter insanity...
A new release hp ball will cost your local shop $125-135 plus shipping if not ordered in a large shipment to get free shipping. So lets say $138 for example. Then add drilling of $40, plus $15 for inserts, $15 thumb slug and you are at $208 plus tax at say 9% = $226.97 out the door. That is with zero markup on the ball. What is unfair about that?
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Still, they charge premium prices--225-250 out the door for high performance balls;
seriously how can they justify this when you could just go online and get it for 75 bucks cheaper?
matter of fact just saw this the other week at my local house...a team mate of mine paid $150 for a freak n frantic...it's a $100 anywhere online and i could have got it off my guy for $85...
utter insanity...
A new release hp ball will cost your local shop $125-135 plus shipping if not ordered in a large shipment to get free shipping. So lets say $138 for example. Then add drilling of $40, plus $15 for inserts, $15 thumb slug and you are at $208 plus tax at say 9% = $226.97 out the door. That is with zero markup on the ball. What is unfair about that?
nothing when you put it like that...i thought you were talking about charging 200 just for a ball
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No, just that many proshops get to the same price range in a few different ways.
Many have gone to matching internet prices on the ball.
So they list the Storm Byte for $159 just like the internet websites. Then you add drilling cost, plus inserts, plus thumb slug and then you have your total. Just like when buying online. ( which is close to what most shops already sold a bowling ball for)
Most shops list the price of the ball with drilling included on the shelf, and then you add extra for inserts and slug if needed. It all comes out to about the same price for any area.
The reason is too many people go in a proshop and say "$219 for a Storm Byte, I can get it online for $159". Then that $159 ball goes to the shop and they add $40 to 50 for drilling then additional for slug and inserts and you are back to the same price or higher. If you are buying a ball from the shop with drilling, inserts ect if you know what you are doing it is easier to negotiate a better price because the shop is making a little profit off of all services and is easier to offer a better deal then if you just bring in a ball from else where.
The ball price with drilling used to be the most popular way of displaying the ball price.
Using bowl.com as an example, the Storm byte with slug and inserts shipped was $173.92 no drilling offered
buddies was $177.80 for the same setup as above, with drilling it was $159+50(includes inserts and slug) for $209 total
bowlingball.com Was $177.52 for the ball with slug and inserts. Drilling is available for $50 like with buddies but Im not able to tell if it will include the inserts and slug.
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Thank you Kid. Those are the major markers people don't understand.
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I have worked on all sides of this conversation, running pro shops and drilling balls sold online. What people need to remember is when you have a ball drilled online if you don't use a changeable thumb you will need to finish the ball yourself. You will also need to glue your own finger inserts. It may sound simple, but I have seen plenty of people with half a tube of glue on their ball after attempting it.
The online guys are making no where near $30 a ball. If you could make $30 a ball selling online everyone would be doing it. After shipping and credit card charges, it's closer to $10 a ball. And keep in mind the cost of acquiring a sale for an online guy. Most of them spend more on marketing in a day then most pro shops spend in a year.
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suhoney, I'm sure your boss can find somebody to do your job for a hell of a lot cheaper too. I didn't want to disclose our wholesale prices, but kid at least got you in the ballpark. I don't know why people don't believe us when we say how expensive this stuff is. If people whine and complain non stop about the prices, don't you think we'd lower them if we could? We would sell more if it was cheaper right? It's this kind of simple logic that could prevent a lot of issues, but people either aren't smart enough to figure it out, or would rather have something to cry about. We sell SST8s for $150. My employee discount makes them $155. Yes, no typo, $155. Because we sell them for $150, that's what I get them for, but I don't know what planet everybody else is living on thinking we're gouging people.
If you want to go online and get it, go for it. You know what pin length to select? Does your website even offer a choice? How about top weight? Or do you just order a ball, then try to take your 1 inch pin into a shop with the cg kicked an inch or more right of the pin-mb line and expect them to give you the layout you want? I had a guy bring me a ball the other day with a 1 inch pin, told me what layout he wanted, and when I laid it out, the fingers were UNDER the CG. Told him I couldn't give him that layout, and he didn't understand why. Naturally I was the idiot because he didn't understand.
But I'll tell you what, you can probably get a good set up for your house with a press, spinner, and tools for 4000ish bucks. There are youtube videos to teach you how to put 3 holes in a ball, you can take care of it all yourself. And just think, at your "fair" price of 40 bucks to drill a ball, you'll BREAK EVEN in only 100 balls. Double it to the insanely unfair price of 80, and you'll break even in 50 balls. Heck, get some friends to chip in, you could drill balls for all of them too. Only 3 holes, right? As soon as you or one of them takes a ball to the Open Championships and has to have a crater put in a ball because you didn't drill it legally, what then? You do know what's required to drill a ball legally, right? What happens when you get going too fast with a dull bit, you hit the core and it diverts the bit or locks it up in the chuck? How about if you get a slug halfway into the ball and it gets stuck? Or when a buddies bridge cracks because you used too much glue? You do know that glue expands and contracts at a different rate than the ball does and that too much glue can cause the bridge to crack, right? Don't forget to reset the pitches to 0 before shaving the slug down . . that's not a good day. Just a few basic examples.
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Gizmo, I could not help but laugh when I read your post. I have been drilling for about three years and early on, made most of the mistakes you noted. Forgot to set the pitches back to 0 more than once.
I think that proshop's have to adjust to the fact that balls can be purchased online and get competitive with ball pricing. You are dead wrong if you believe that top weight and pin length request are not honored on online purchases.
Sell the ball reasonably and charge a fair price for your services.
I do not think that you can set up a decent home shop for close to 4 k. A haus machine and two ball rejuvenator cost more than that and you still have to purchase a press and bits. Then tools and supplies. After that, you have to factor in the time that it takes to learn at least the basics and to keep up with new developments. Its not easy but anyone with reasonable intelligence can learn to measure a person and lay out a ball.
I gladly paid 65 bucks to have balls drilled. Knowing what is involved, I believe 65-85 is a fair price for drilling with grips and slug. After all, they cost less than 10 bucks.
Some of the shops charge less for their regulars and I think that is just good business, especially since they should have accurate bowing specs for repeat customers. Also, I do not think that the charge for drilling should be increased because the ball was purchased online. The work involved is the same.
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Gizmo, I could not help but laugh when I read your post. I have been drilling for about three years and early on, made most of the mistakes you noted. Forgot to set the pitches back to 0 more than once.
I think that proshop's have to adjust to the fact that balls can be purchased online and get competitive with ball pricing. You are dead wrong if you believe that top weight and pin length request are not honored on online purchases.
Sell the ball reasonably and charge a fair price for your services.
I do not think that you can set up a decent home shop for close to 4 k. A haus machine and two ball rejuvenator cost more than that and you still have to purchase a press and bits. Then tools and supplies. After that, you have to factor in the time that it takes to learn at least the basics and to keep up with new developments. Its not easy but anyone with reasonable intelligence can learn to measure a person and lay out a ball.
I gladly paid 65 bucks to have balls drilled. Knowing what is involved, I believe 65-85 is a fair price for drilling with grips and slug. After all, they cost less than 10 bucks.
Some of the shops charge less for their regulars and I think that is just good business, especially since they should have accurate bowing specs for repeat customers. Also, I do not think that the charge for drilling should be increased because the ball was purchased online. The work involved is the same.
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Yeah, I was talking about getting set up very cheaply. Used small drill, some bits, and finishing tools. Aren't even getting into spinners, resurfacers or rejuvenators lol. And yeah, I know most websites give you choice of pin and tw, but if people don't know to select them or what to select, they get the stuff nobody else wants.
And yes, I've had every single one of those happen to me lol, those oh crap moments where your face instantly gets hot because you have zero clue how to fix it initially. The slug getting stuck isn't too bad . . but when you try to force it and split the ball . . or put a nice crescent shaped gouge in a brand new ball that you can't do anything with but junk . . or when the bit diverts, jams in the chuck, and trips a breaker . . How about when ball plug doesn't set up? You want to talk about a mess that's impossible to clean up. Lol I've gotta start a new thread now, and I've got an idea for an article!
Gizmo, I could not help but laugh when I read your post. I have been drilling for about three years and early on, made most of the mistakes you noted. Forgot to set the pitches back to 0 more than once.
I think that proshop's have to adjust to the fact that balls can be purchased online and get competitive with ball pricing. You are dead wrong if you believe that top weight and pin length request are not honored on online purchases.
Sell the ball reasonably and charge a fair price for your services.
I do not think that you can set up a decent home shop for close to 4 k. A haus machine and two ball rejuvenator cost more than that and you still have to purchase a press and bits. Then tools and supplies. After that, you have to factor in the time that it takes to learn at least the basics and to keep up with new developments. Its not easy but anyone with reasonable intelligence can learn to measure a person and lay out a ball.
I gladly paid 65 bucks to have balls drilled. Knowing what is involved, I believe 65-85 is a fair price for drilling with grips and slug. After all, they cost less than 10 bucks.
Some of the shops charge less for their regulars and I think that is just good business, especially since they should have accurate bowing specs for repeat customers. Also, I do not think that the charge for drilling should be increased because the ball was purchased online. The work involved is the same.
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A home setup can be done for much cheaper if you have a little patience. My brother worked in a proshop for years and decided to go the home route just for us. Internet prices were such through places like Rizzos and ect that it was worth it. Not to mention ebay.
Off ebay we got a Ruddell x,y axis jig with a full set of used bits for $225 shipped. Later added a set of pitch gauges for cheap off of ebay along with a quarter scale.
Bought a bench top drill press from lowes for $200. added a used ball spinner for $150.(ball spinner came first) Used a dremel tool for our sander and we had everything needed.
A few years later while watching ebay got another deal for another jig, 2 sets of bits, hernery troemner scale, and a plug cutting router for $450 shipped. Kept only the scale and sold everything else for $575. We got paid to keep the scale. After 10 years or so the drill finally dies and we replaced it with a nice standup drill from lowes for $250. A full setup for drilling under $1000.
As far as proshop prices go it doesn't really matter if the public knows. They will still ask you to take less for it. I just bought me another Brunswick Ringer Platinum off ebay last week for $72 shipped. That is below my cost before shipping through a distributor.
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I'd almost rather the public knew how much we don't make on stuff . . but every time I divulge numbers I get jumped on for it. Only reason ANY pro shops exist anywhere is love of the game.
A home setup can be done for much cheaper if you have a little patience. My brother worked in a proshop for years and decided to go the home route just for us. Internet prices were such through places like Rizzos and ect that it was worth it. Not to mention ebay.
Off ebay we got a Ruddell x,y axis jig with a full set of used bits for $225 shipped. Later added a set of pitch gauges for cheap off of ebay along with a quarter scale.
Bought a bench top drill press from lowes for $200. added a used ball spinner for $150.(ball spinner came first) Used a dremel tool for our sander and we had everything needed.
A few years later while watching ebay got another deal for another jig, 2 sets of bits, hernery troemner scale, and a plug cutting router for $450 shipped. Kept only the scale and sold everything else for $575. We got paid to keep the scale. After 10 years or so the drill finally dies and we replaced it with a nice standup drill from lowes for $250. A full setup for drilling under $1000.
As far as proshop prices go it doesn't really matter if the public knows. They will still ask you to take less for it. I just bought me another Brunswick Ringer Platinum off ebay last week for $72 shipped. That is below my cost before shipping through a distributor.
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Something of note I caught from reading this entire now 5 page thread:
In order to be able to service the high-end (tournament) bowler - a pro shop operator needs to be up to date with the latest knowledge and possibly pro shop equipment (high cost) to offer premium service for the high end clients.
However, the average league bowler - who may be more of the pro shop's average business, doesn't need or care about the high end premium service, but still pays for it. Whether they wanted it or not.
And there's the issue. And no real way to get around it.
There is no "Walmart" pro shop for a bowler who doesn't want to shop at "Neiman Marcus" But the pro-shop operates as a "Neiman Marcus" because that is what it takes to properly service his end clients correctly in today's market.
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1. Suhony24, I hope you never get a job as a manager as you do not understand business and overhead.
2. Gizmo is right on. People don't realize that tree is equipment cost, supplies, rent, insurance, employee salaries, ect. Don't forget about the $$$$ spent on any certification training.
3. I live in a small market. I am retired military, work full time, and operate my pro shop also. I cannot survive operating my pro shop only with the internet today so I am forced to work a full time job. I have 5 employees that work for me at two locations. Why do I do it? Because I enjoy it and I am damn good at it.
4. I charge $50 fingertip, $40 conventional, $30 youth to drill ball not purchase through me. Inserts are $10 a set, $8 with new ball drilling, thumb slug is $10, $8 with new ball purchase. All balls not purchased through me are not warranties by my shops.
5. I watch and know my customers. If not, I spend 1/2 hour getting needed information to get them into the proper ball will proper layout.
6. You buy a ball and have it drilled online, ball arrives and needs thumb worked out. Should we local pro shop operators charge you to fine tune or do we tell you to take it back to the place that drilled it?
7. Bowler x is looking at a new ball and asks you to come out and watch him bowl. Now there is no charge for the 15-30 minutes of my time and he shows up next week with the ball you recommended. A big thanks for taking my time that I could have put towards a paying customer.
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That's a very good analysis. I used to work HVAC, and my service charge was the same no matter what I ended up fixing. Didn't matter if all I was replacing was a capacitor or if I had to chase down a cracked heat exchanger or leak in the refrigerant lines. Now the part prices were different, but my base service charge was the same no matter whether I was there for 5 minutes or 45 minutes. Or like a mechanic, you'd think an oil change would be simple, right? Well what if he gets into it and finds something that's a problem? A mechanic needs to know all about the car, the engine, all moving parts to be able to diagnose things. Sometimes drilling a ball is a lot more complicated than just adding holes. Everybody's hand is different, we need to know things about the human hand to be able to fit it well. We need to know a bit of physics just to be able to pick a good layout and know how to adjust the ball surface. It's not like somebody comes in, we put 3 holes anywhere, and they go out and shoot 300s. Sometimes we have to get into some pretty intense troubleshooting, and sometimes changing a capacitor or changing oil goes super quick and easy.
Something of note I caught from reading this entire now 5 page thread:
In order to be able to service the high-end (tournament) bowler - a pro shop operator needs to be up to date with the latest knowledge and possibly pro shop equipment (high cost) to offer premium service for the high end clients.
However, the average league bowler - who may be more of the pro shop's average business, doesn't need or care about the high end premium service, but still pays for it. Whether they wanted it or not.
And there's the issue. And no real way to get around it.
There is no "Walmart" pro shop for a bowler who doesn't want to shop at "Neiman Marcus" But the pro-shop operates as a "Neiman Marcus" because that is what it takes to properly service his end clients correctly in today's market.
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Do you ever spend 30 minutes putting holes in the ball to make the customer feel better? I've seen guys do this. Not me.
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Nope. If it comes off perfectly in 10 minutes, that's when they get it. I've never caught any flak for getting done with a ball quickly, no attitude like, "I just paid you that much and that's all the longer it took?" Actually it's kind of the opposite.
Do you ever spend 30 minutes putting holes in the ball to make the customer feel better? I've seen guys do this. Not me.
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how about taking a clip board to take some notes on ball recomendation, suggestions and drilling patterns? go out and watch a customer roll his ball so u know the speed, style, revs etc. i have never understood why a pro shop operator never did this. at least in my experience(5 diff pro shops bought from).
a friend of mine recently had his dad get back into bowling and hadnt bowled in 20 years. they went ot the pro shop and of course no watching hime bowl or asking deep level questions, just pointed him to mid- high level ball.(190 dollar ball) now he is stuck with a ball thats way too strong for his style.
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This is one of the reasons why I have invested a small fortune into purchasing my own equipment and learning to lay out and drill my own equipment.
how about taking a clip board to take some notes on ball recomendation, suggestions and drilling patterns? go out and watch a customer roll his ball so u know the speed, style, revs etc. i have never understood why a pro shop operator never did this. at least in my experience(5 diff pro shops bought from).
a friend of mine recently had his dad get back into bowling and hadnt bowled in 20 years. they went ot the pro shop and of course no watching hime bowl or asking deep level questions, just pointed him to mid- high level ball.(190 dollar ball) now he is stuck with a ball thats way too strong for his style.
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i tend to be one of those people who knows what they want from a ball, and what ball they want. i do ask from time to time about different balls that may be comming out becasue watching them isn't the same as throwing them, so i want a bit of info from my pro shop guy.
i liken my relationship with my pro shop guy John, to that of a bartender. He listens, he agrees/disagrees, we talk about other stuff, he gives advice, and he's there every tuesday and wednesday. and when i need to change what i'm drinking, he has good advice based on years of knowing me, and being more current than i can be with the products.
of course just my 2cents
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Yeah, but you also realize that he's investing several hours a week into you and only getting a ball sale once every several months. Boils his profit down to a few bucks an hour, hardly enough to get by on. If I charged my boss for all the hours I've worked this year so far, I'd put him out of business, wouldn't be able to afford me.
i tend to be one of those people who knows what they want from a ball, and what ball they want. i do ask from time to time about different balls that may be comming out becasue watching them isn't the same as throwing them, so i want a bit of info from my pro shop guy.
i liken my relationship with my pro shop guy John, to that of a bartender. He listens, he agrees/disagrees, we talk about other stuff, he gives advice, and he's there every tuesday and wednesday. and when i need to change what i'm drinking, he has good advice based on years of knowing me, and being more current than i can be with the products.
of course just my 2cents
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If, I had a dime for every hour I have spent with countless golfers in my club fitting and build biz I'd be well ya know......rich! :) There are a huge number of golfers that want to mine you for information. Pro shop operators are no different. You have to know how far to go and qualify clients. It takes time to become biz savvy.
Yeah, but you also realize that he's investing several hours a week into you and only getting a ball sale once every several months. Boils his profit down to a few bucks an hour, hardly enough to get by on. If I charged my boss for all the hours I've worked this year so far, I'd put him out of business, wouldn't be able to afford me.
i tend to be one of those people who knows what they want from a ball, and what ball they want. i do ask from time to time about different balls that may be comming out becasue watching them isn't the same as throwing them, so i want a bit of info from my pro shop guy.
i liken my relationship with my pro shop guy John, to that of a bartender. He listens, he agrees/disagrees, we talk about other stuff, he gives advice, and he's there every tuesday and wednesday. and when i need to change what i'm drinking, he has good advice based on years of knowing me, and being more current than i can be with the products.
of course just my 2cents
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What it appears golf has done better is keeping the value up of things like a true fitting. I have never been on Trackman or something similar for free, or even included in a club purchase. For free you can get somebody to watch ball flight and make recommendations, but that is about it. Bowlers expect somebody to watch them bowl, get vital specs and lay out and drill a ball for the same price as drilling a ball conventional for a new bowler. Scott33 would know better about golf, that is just my impression as an insider in bowling and a golf consumer.
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Golfers try and fit themselves and buy on-line or off eBay. Bowlers can not fit themselves.
What it appears golf has done better is keeping the value up of things like a true fitting. I have never been on Trackman or something similar for free, or even included in a club purchase. For free you can get somebody to watch ball flight and make recommendations, but that is about it. Bowlers expect somebody to watch them bowl, get vital specs and lay out and drill a ball for the same price as drilling a ball conventional for a new bowler. Scott33 would know better about golf, that is just my impression as an insider in bowling and a golf consumer.
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i guess in my anwer it could matter that my pro shop guy is also the alley owner. it's a smaller alley and he does both. he makes alot of money off of me in terms of balls, tape, food at the snack bar, also my boys both bowl, and of course more snack bar money and the claw machine, so it may have skewed my answer about him being like a bartender. He is good at cultivating relationships with his patrons in general, and I buy all my stuff from him becasue of this.
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What it appears golf has done better is keeping the value up of things like a true fitting. I have never been on Trackman or something similar for free, or even included in a club purchase. For free you can get somebody to watch ball flight and make recommendations, but that is about it. Bowlers expect somebody to watch them bowl, get vital specs and lay out and drill a ball for the same price as drilling a ball conventional for a new bowler. Scott33 would know better about golf, that is just my impression as an insider in bowling and a golf consumer.
Alot of that though comes from the background of the two different games. Golf has always been more of white collar type game, and almost from its inception people paid for all this advanced work, mainly because originally the pro shop owner was the guy actually building your clubs. People pay more because they have always paid more. One of the reasons the sport ballooned is because the average joe could go out and get a " stock" set of clubs for a reasonable price, if you want the good stuff you pay more for it, and the really good stuff is more than that.
Bowling on the other hand has blue collar roots. You bought the ball and someone drilled it, it didn't take any huge amount of expertise, it was about as close to 3 holes in a ball as you can get. Today though the physics behind the game has changed with all of these cores, coverstocks and wild layouts. The problem is though that people were used to the 3 holes in a ball, not rocket science. They still expect the Pro Shop to get the holes in the ball correctly, its just that unlike golf, that's always been included with bowling.
Also the other huge difference between golf and bowling, there are no off the shelf stock sets in bowling. If you want to get into golf you go down to the local Wal Mart and can get a cheap set for 200 bucks. With bowling, the stock sets are free, the center supplies them. There is that beginner set with most plastic balls, but most people at that point can't justify just using the free stuff. Then you basically have no middle road, its either all or nothing ( like stock sets of Calloways, Taylor made or Armour's * wink wink*) and straight to the high end stuff. Its the reason you can't really compare golf and bowling pro shops imo, the markets are completely different with completely different expectations from its customers.
In 1972 my dad paid $35 for his ball and to have it drilled ( An old Ace Hard rubber) and the way he talks about it that was a freaking fortune lol. My mother and grandfather also worked at the plant that poured them so they got the ball cheap. I'm not sure what the inflation calculation is, but I'm betting the sport hasn't kept up with inflation ( I'm guessing due in large part to competition).
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Well my pro shop I wish would suggest on somethings instead of just going ahead and doing. One she knows what she's talking about but she's reading what the book says. I bought a ball for what I wanted to be a ball to get drilled to the max but instead she drills it to go long. Instead of doing what I asked she did what she thought was right for me which turned out completely wrong. So I now get my balls drilled by the owner of my bowling alley. Some pro shop operators think they know to much, when really all they think they know is what the one paragraph they read from a book.
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Lol if she's making decisions from a book, she's doing it wrong . .
Well my pro shop I wish would suggest on somethings instead of just going ahead and doing. One she knows what she's talking about but she's reading what the book says. I bought a ball for what I wanted to be a ball to get drilled to the max but instead she drills it to go long. Instead of doing what I asked she did what she thought was right for me which turned out completely wrong. So I now get my balls drilled by the owner of my bowling alley. Some pro shop operators think they know to much, when really all they think they know is what the one paragraph they read from a book.
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Honesty had a pro shop owner that would tell you that an certain ball or weight block did not fit your game.
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Ultimately what it comes down to, is when you find someone that gets you the same fit on every ball you drill, and you like the guy that's drilling your equipment, it's worth whatever price he or she is charging you. I order online, when I want a piece that is nearly impossible to find anywhere. eBay is a great place to find discontinued stuff, but if it's available from the distributor, I'm ordering it from my guy.
Is it more expensive? A little bit. Is it worth it? Absolutely. I don't know about the rest of you guys, but any time I buy a bowling ball, it actually pays for itself and then some. I don't look at a bowling ball as an expense, I look at it as an investment. If it costs me an extra $20 from what I'd paid to get it online and drilled, then that $20 is the tip he gets from all the money I know I'm going to win. A good fitting ball gives me that confidence and it hasn't let me down yet.
I pay the extra money to help my guy stay in business. It took me many years to find someone that did a good job, and now I want to make sure he's there when I need him.
I don't care if he charged full price on the stuff, the fit alone is worth it. I just had a new ball drilled a month ago. It's paid for itself nearly 20 x's over what I paid. Yea I'd say the extra few dollars I paid for it was definitely worth it.
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QUIT!!!! Idiot at Tustin/Cerritos thinks he knows it all. Fact is he is horrible. Just because his wife happens to be a Pro Bowler doesn't automatically give him the skills to operate a Pro Shop.
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Ultimately what it comes down to, is when you find someone that gets you the same fit on every ball you drill, and you like the guy that's drilling your equipment, it's worth whatever price he or she is charging you. I order online, when I want a piece that is nearly impossible to find anywhere. eBay is a great place to find discontinued stuff, but if it's available from the distributor, I'm ordering it from my guy.
Is it more expensive? A little bit. Is it worth it? Absolutely. I don't know about the rest of you guys, but any time I buy a bowling ball, it actually pays for itself and then some. I don't look at a bowling ball as an expense, I look at it as an investment. If it costs me an extra $20 from what I'd paid to get it online and drilled, then that $20 is the tip he gets from all the money I know I'm going to win. A good fitting ball gives me that confidence and it hasn't let me down yet.
I pay the extra money to help my guy stay in business. It took me many years to find someone that did a good job, and now I want to make sure he's there when I need him.
I don't care if he charged full price on the stuff, the fit alone is worth it. I just had a new ball drilled a month ago. It's paid for itself nearly 20 x's over what I paid. Yea I'd say the extra few dollars I paid for it was definitely worth it.
One of the best posts that I have read.
In addition to bowling, I love freshwater fishing. There is a small family owned tackle shop not far from my home. I will ALWAYS start there for my purchases. If they do have a product in stock and cannot order it for me, only then will I look online or go to one of the franchise operations. Will I pay more at my local retail store? Of course I will. But I will also get some priceless tips on what is working on the local waters, etc. This wonderful store has been around for several generations, but the business is probably on borrowed time because of the internet. It will be a sad day for me when it closes.
Spider's comments on a good fitting ball are 100% dead on.