Author Topic: What is a Reasonable Handicap.... (Read 18651 times)

TWOHAND834 · « **on:** April 05, 2011, 11:21:23 PM »

....for money leagues? We got into a debate recently at the fact that leagues that are $20-25 a night, have 30 teams, and the overwhelming majority of the bowlers are over 200, have handicaps based on 220 and even 230. So I thought it would be cool to debate that. If you are in a league where you have a hefty prize fund, what is a "reasonable handicap"? Should it be based off of 210, 220, 230....?

IMO.....handicaps should be based on a lower average, say 210, because I think it would help eliminate some bagging that goes on. Granted there are people in the leagues that average 220+ but the overall majority of the league is 200-210, with similarities in the number of 220 bowlers as there are 190 bowlers. I think that if you continue to have handicaps based on 220-230, you will continue to have teams with a "We won the first third/quarter so we can bag the rest of the year and build up handicap for the rolloffs" mentality. I know it goes on in just about every money league and realize this is a huge uphill battle. But, it has gotten to a point to where I dont care about those types of leagues anymore. I have had more fun in the $15.00/week leagues the past few years than the money leagues. There is a league at a center here that is $15.00/week and takes up almost all 40 lanes.

So what do you guys think? Curious to find out if it was completely up to you, what would you base the handicap on?

Peace doesnt always have to be silent.

txbowler · « **Reply #1 on:** April 06, 2011, 07:44:09 AM »

We do 80% of the difference between the teams averages. That way you don't have to set a base for the hdcp and no individual bowler gains an advantage by averaging over the hdcp base.

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #2 on:** April 06, 2011, 08:16:33 AM »

100% of the difference between the two teams! The team that bowls the most under their average lose! How can it be more reasonable?

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trash heap · « **Reply #3 on:** April 06, 2011, 11:58:36 AM »

Lowering Handicap Base to 210 is not the answer for sandbagging. You cannot stop someone from sandbagging. Its a very hard case to prove.

Your 210 solution is to make those with high averages happy and those with lower averages pissed off! No matter what you do someone is going to be upset. Whether its the high average losing to low average team because their is too much handicap or the Low average team not even having a chance to win because there isn't enough handicap.

USBC has done the studies. Even with handicap set at 100%, the higher average bowler (team) wins more than the lower average bowler (team). The handicap has be a little over 110% for the scenario to even out.

100% Handicap should be used, but the problem I can see is the handicap base. Eventhough I am sure that USBC's study was done across the board. I really think they should look at teams with high average players (225 and up) on them to see how that scenario plays out. The results might be different.

We have seen on the rare occasions those with 235+ averages for a year. Should a base be set to 240 or 250? That might be too high. I personally think 225 or 230 is a good base?

Now what I don't agree with is handicap scores over 300. Sorry...but if the guy with zero handicap can't throw more than a 300 then no one else should either. Call it HANDICAP 300. If a league has multiple handicap 300 games then order should be determined by scratch score. (should be listed in standing sheets with scratch score in parenthesis).

League with handicap set 100% of 230

Bowler A has a 210 average (20 pin handicap) and shoots a 290 game.

Bowler B has a 160 average (70 pin handicap) and shoots a 250 game.

Bowler C has a 235 average (0 pin handicap) and shoots a 290 game.

Bowler D has a 190 average (40 pin handicap) and shoots a 250 game.

For top Handicap Games in Leauge would play out like this :

1st place = Bowler A - 300 (290)

2nd place = Bowler B - 300 (250)

3rd place = Bowler C - 290 (290)

4th place = Bowler D - 290 (250)

icefiction · « **Reply #4 on:** April 06, 2011, 12:09:15 PM »

I have always put it this way, regardless of the study done by the USBC if you look at the shear probability of the numbers, there are more ways for a lower average bowler to shoot their average opposed to a higher average bowler. Thats just simple math. So when you look at handicap you have to factor that in somewhere. In the big money league I bowl in we use 90% of team difference; this does not work very well at all simply because the vast majority of nights you end up bowling against your 180 bowler who shoots 200 and even if you shoot 20 over your average they still win because of handicap, so you have to shoot even more over your average than they did. If your handicap is based on a number(ie 220) then you are not killed when a high average team faces up against a lower average one, because everyone is based off the same number.

In my honest opinion though, why do we need 90% handicap, why should people be get rewarded for not working as hard as others to be good at the sport they play? Because lets face it, when anyone shoes up to bowl league three things can happen, they bowl their average, they bowl less then their average, or they bowl higher than their average. Nothing else can happen.

kidlost2000 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 06, 2011, 01:45:22 PM »

No way is perfect. Handicap off 210 means that a team can load up with 210+ average bowlers and should dominate.

If you average 180 you get 80% of 210 (24 pins)

If you average 140 you get 80% of 210 (56 pins)

If you average 211 you get 0 pins

If you all shoot your averages

180 finishes with 204

140 finishes with 196

and 211 wins. 211 can miss his average sum and still win. The lower average bowlers actually have to bowl consistently over their average to compete against the team that is bowling scratch. The scratch team technically does not.

When you have the ability to have teams bowl scratch they have the advantage.

If you average 180 you get 90% of 210 (27 pins)

If you average 140 you get 90% of 210 (63 pins)

If you average 211 you get 90% of 210 (0 pins)

Now when everyone shoots their averages

180 finishes with 207

140 finishes with 203

211 finishes with 211

By the numbers the lower your average even with more handicap you still have to bowl above your average to win.

Be good, or be good at it.

txbowler · « **Reply #6 on:** April 06, 2011, 01:56:36 PM »

I love the people who reply to this topic that the 180 bowler always shoots 200. If that was the case, the 180 average bowler would have a 200 average, not a 180 average.

A buddy of mine is tracking his stats using an I-Phone app this year. He showed me his statistics a few weeks back. He is around 66% on 10 pins. He is a 197 THS average bowler. He is probably your typical once a week 195-200 guy that can strike pretty well and fire off a 250+ game when he carries, and when he doesn't he struggles to break 170-180 because he's barely above 50% on 10 pins. He probably represents a lot of your typical bowler out there. They can strike, and bowl a big game, but they cannot shoot spares consistently. But in a HDCP match on a THS against a 220 average, if he is carrying, that extra 15 pins he gets in HDCP makes him tough to beat.

But back to my original point. A bowlers average is his average. If he is consistently over that average, the average goes up. Most, if not all of the guys I bowl in leagues with, you know what their averages are. They don't magically get better. Bowlers who have been bowling for 15 years and averaging 185 are not magically going to start practicing and getting better. New people to the sport who have not maximized their learning and potential can raise their average. But at some point, you are as good as you are going to get.

Pinbuster · « **Reply #7 on:** April 06, 2011, 01:56:56 PM »

My first feeling is that a handicap league should not be a high dollar league. But I know that doesn't seem to fly anymore.

Depending on how many average over 220 and how high it goes. I would tend to say 80% of 220.

Zanatos1914 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 06, 2011, 02:03:20 PM »

Normally in the Competitive leagues in my area 210 with 80%. handicape is the avg.

My problem with my leagues in my house is the fact all the above avg bowlers normally bowl on the same team and this does include the PBA's. Its really challenging to find some real good female bowlers that arent already taken by the upper better half of the house which really favors them even more.. New teams dont stay long and normally leave after a single season.

Personally with my avg being 205 how can I beat a person with 160 avg with 90% of 210 or higher.. The only difference between my avg and 160 is only 3 controlled shots...

2 Fingers 4 Life
I Am The 3 Fingers Nightmare

Bahshay · « **Reply #9 on:** April 06, 2011, 02:04:57 PM »

Not following either one of your points.

1. If handicap is 90% of team difference and both teams shoot average, 20 pins above average, whatever, the higher average team will win every single time.

2. Handicap isn't "rewarding" people for not working hard, especially considering they are still at a disadvantage. Its just keeping people interested. I know anything can happen in theory, but my one mens league of 4 people each has ranges of team averages from 650-900. Why would the lower average teams ever show up to bowl if they all need to shoot 50 pins over average and still hope the other team doesnt have to do well? I'm not saying scratch leagues are bad, I'm just saying making every league scratch would instantly rid the league of 90% of the bowlers.

icefiction wrote on 4/6/2011 12:09 PM:I have always put it this way, regardless of the study done by the USBC if you look at the shear probability of the numbers, there are more ways for a lower average bowler to shoot their average opposed to a higher average bowler. Thats just simple math. So when you look at handicap you have to factor that in somewhere. In the big money league I bowl in we use 90% of team difference; this does not work very well at all simply because the vast majority of nights you end up bowling against your 180 bowler who shoots 200 and even if you shoot 20 over your average they still win because of handicap, so you have to shoot even more over your average than they did. If your handicap is based on a number(ie 220) then you are not killed when a high average team faces up against a lower average one, because everyone is based off the same number.

In my honest opinion though, why do we need 90% handicap, why should people be get rewarded for not working as hard as others to be good at the sport they play? Because lets face it, when anyone shoes up to bowl league three things can happen, they bowl their average, they bowl less then their average, or they bowl higher than their average. Nothing else can happen.

txbowler · « **Reply #10 on:** April 06, 2011, 02:11:21 PM »

I also feel part of the problem is the higher average bowler believes that he/she should NEVER lose to the lower average bowler.

sigmaphi9 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 06, 2011, 02:52:08 PM »

It doesn't matter to me what handicap % is used, but I shouldn't be able to shoot 300 scratch and lose, IMHO. Thoughts?

txbowler wrote on 4/6/2011 2:11 PM:
I also feel part of the problem is the higher average bowler believes that he/she should NEVER lose to the lower average bowler.

Zanatos1914 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 06, 2011, 03:05:14 PM »

I agree 100%

2 Fingers 4 Life
I Am The 3 Fingers Nightmare

302efi · « **Reply #13 on:** April 06, 2011, 03:55:18 PM »

Couple years ago I was subbing on a mixed league. The team I was subbing against shoots 1442 with cap and these are all 170-80 bowlers....

Also couple years ago on a money league, I shoot 300 scratch and got beat by a 190 bowler that had a good game and shot 306 I beleive...

Food for thought..

quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.

Andyman3333 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 06, 2011, 04:31:26 PM »

The problem with handicap is that every year, I have to establish a new average. Every friggen year. I've been bowling for 25 years and I have to re-establish every year. Versus using a 3-year or 5-year average. Last year, I took most of the year off, bowled 24 games at the end of the season and booked 230. If that's a 5 year average or a 3 year average of every game at every center, I bet I'm right around 215 to 218. Now I must enter any tournament based on a book average from 24 games at the highest scoring center in town.

So, most complaints about handicap arise for this sole reason. Because someone has a bad run at the start of league, they get 20-30 games in at 185, something clicks, they figure something out and they average 205 for the rest of the season. Their team finishes first. They get accused of sandbagging, they argue otherwise, and the league votes to change the handicap to penalize people like him.

The following year, a bunch of scratch bowlers come in under the new handicap system and blow the league away because the handicap ratio forces the lower average bowlers to bowl above and beyond their average EVERY WEEK to compete. When in the end, an average is just an average. You bowl some games above and some games below.

Personally, it's going to take USBC to establish a standardized handicapping system based on some extensive study to find a cure for the inconsistency from league to league, center to center and state to state. There is no consistency. Sanction an average at a tougher center, enter tournaments at an easy center and POOF, you win entering with your tough bowling center average.

If it were me, I'd take money out of handicap leagues. Handicap leagues should be recreational only. No money allowed. You want to bowl for money, bowl scratch. bowl pro. Hell, you take money out of handicap leagues and I might only have to pay $10-$12 bucks to bowl every week. I'd be thrilled! What a concept.

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Author Topic: What is a Reasonable Handicap.... (Read 18651 times)

TWOHAND834

What is a Reasonable Handicap....

txbowler

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

JOE FALCO

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

trash heap

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

icefiction

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

kidlost2000

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

txbowler

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

Pinbuster

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

Zanatos1914

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

Bahshay

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

txbowler

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

sigmaphi9

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

Zanatos1914

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

302efi

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

Andyman3333

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....