Author Topic: What is a Reasonable Handicap.... (Read 18652 times)

TWOHAND834 · « **on:** April 05, 2011, 11:21:23 PM »

....for money leagues? We got into a debate recently at the fact that leagues that are $20-25 a night, have 30 teams, and the overwhelming majority of the bowlers are over 200, have handicaps based on 220 and even 230. So I thought it would be cool to debate that. If you are in a league where you have a hefty prize fund, what is a "reasonable handicap"? Should it be based off of 210, 220, 230....?

IMO.....handicaps should be based on a lower average, say 210, because I think it would help eliminate some bagging that goes on. Granted there are people in the leagues that average 220+ but the overall majority of the league is 200-210, with similarities in the number of 220 bowlers as there are 190 bowlers. I think that if you continue to have handicaps based on 220-230, you will continue to have teams with a "We won the first third/quarter so we can bag the rest of the year and build up handicap for the rolloffs" mentality. I know it goes on in just about every money league and realize this is a huge uphill battle. But, it has gotten to a point to where I dont care about those types of leagues anymore. I have had more fun in the $15.00/week leagues the past few years than the money leagues. There is a league at a center here that is $15.00/week and takes up almost all 40 lanes.

So what do you guys think? Curious to find out if it was completely up to you, what would you base the handicap on?

Peace doesnt always have to be silent.

Russell · « **Reply #31 on:** April 11, 2011, 10:11:21 AM »

If this comes out of left field...oh well. I have seen you complain about this same thing a number of times on here. You're a great scorer in league, but you are never seen bowling anything other than leagues and a yearly appearance at Nationals, usually with a weak team.

Now you come on here and think that handicap over a 210 average HELPS a 230 average bowler?

Seriously....go check the math....numbers don't lie. The higher average bowlers will run away and hide if the leagues are stacked that way. It will be great the first year as your team runs away and wins....but next year magically the league is 1/2 the size...as all of the teams averaging 1000 realize they have absolutely NO chance....

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

clint191 · « **Reply #32 on:** April 11, 2011, 10:38:01 AM »

One league I bowled in a few yrs ago made you use the highest avg you carried at any point in the season after 30 gms if your team made the rolloff.

This kept teams from winning the 1st/2nd qtrs and then tanking the rest of the season. You avg 200 and win a qtr and then drop to a 185 avg, oh well it was tough luck. You used the highest avg on rolloff night.

There were still teams w/ 4 "scratch" bowlers in the league that didn't always win. Great hdcp league that was only $15 a week, but was ran very well!!! To bad it starts at 6:15 and I work til 6:30 now:(

mainzer · « **Reply #33 on:** April 13, 2011, 08:35:56 AM »

No I am not saying 80%, when did I type 80%? I am stating my OPINION. I see 220+ average bowlers whine about getting handicap, that is BS. I am saying at say 210 no more handicap. Most of the caps around here are out 90-100% or Based off team averages. at 210 you got the horses to compete with better bowlers. at 100% handicap the 190 ave gets enough help and soft condtions and modern gear allow him to make more mistakes and still stay in matches with higher aves. Overall though leagues or either for fun in which case winning/losing shouldnt matter as much as having a great time with friends. Or money leagues in which case if you don't like losing beat the other team, beacuse the league is more competitive people should be working to bowl better. Or make the Money league scratch.

Just my thoughts Russel I know you will tear this apart at some point and it will irk me but this is my opinion. Their are now right/wrongs in this debate we are having I see your side and understand it. I think you see my side. I dont mean to sound like a prick anywhere in the above statment but again that is my opinion.

Russell wrote on 4/10/2011 8:13 PM:
So you're saying at 80% of 210 I don't NEED handicap...and that somehow it is good for the 190 bowler? Please let me bowl them for $10,000 per game and we'll see who "needs" handicap.

mainzer wrote on 4/10/2011 11:13 AM:Russel not everyone can be as great as you. Lol, wow, rip the guy apart more.

IMO if you average more than 210 you shouldn't need handicap anymore. Enough said.

"Complexity lay within the artistry of execution"

+++Henry Zou+++

Founding FatherBR Inquisition
MainzerPower

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

"Complexity lay within the artistry of execution"

+++Henry Zou+++

Founding FatherBR Inquisition
MainzerPower

Russell · « **Reply #34 on:** April 13, 2011, 10:45:55 AM »

Okay let's make it 100% of 210...I'll still bowl them for 100 games at $10,000 per game. Look around in your "money" leagues...what do the majority of the bowlers average? Most of them are between 190 and 200. Let's check the math at 100% of 210:

190 bowler gets 20 pins

They shoot 198 (a good game in the grand scheme of things right?)...with 20 pins they shoot 218.

I average 230....all I have to shoot is 11 pins UNDER my average to beat their GOOD game. So I get rewarded for being bad?

Eventually the majority of these bowlers will realize they are throwing their money away year in and year out and take their ball(s) and go home. Your league will be down to the bowlers that didn't "need" handicap, and how many bowlers is that....maybe 10% of the league? Try having a good prize fund with 8/10 teams in a league.

It's not about the high average bowlers NEEDING handicap...it's about keeping people interested in the game. The high average bowlers would much rather have the handicap based on lower numbers, because the math favors them. This idea that handicap helps the 230 bowler is just silly...math doesn't lie.

mainzer wrote on 4/13/2011 8:35 AM:

No I am not saying 80%, when did I type 80%? I am stating my OPINION. I see 220+ average bowlers whine about getting handicap, that is BS. I am saying at say 210 no more handicap. Most of the caps around here are out 90-100% or Based off team averages. at 210 you got the horses to compete with better bowlers. at 100% handicap the 190 ave gets enough help and soft condtions and modern gear allow him to make more mistakes and still stay in matches with higher aves. Overall though leagues or either for fun in which case winning/losing shouldnt matter as much as having a great time with friends. Or money leagues in which case if you don't like losing beat the other team, beacuse the league is more competitive people should be working to bowl better. Or make the Money league scratch.

Just my thoughts Russel I know you will tear this apart at some point and it will irk me but this is my opinion. Their are now right/wrongs in this debate we are having I see your side and understand it. I think you see my side. I dont mean to sound like a prick anywhere in the above statment but again that is my opinion.

Russell wrote on 4/10/2011 8:13 PM:

So you're saying at 80% of 210 I don't NEED handicap...and that somehow it is good for the 190 bowler? Please let me bowl them for $10,000 per game and we'll see who "needs" handicap.

mainzer wrote on 4/10/2011 11:13 AM:Russel not everyone can be as great as you. Lol, wow, rip the guy apart more.

IMO if you average more than 210 you shouldn't need handicap anymore. Enough said.

"Complexity lay within the artistry of execution"

+++Henry Zou+++

Founding FatherBR Inquisition
MainzerPower

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

"Complexity lay within the artistry of execution"

+++Henry Zou+++

Founding FatherBR Inquisition
MainzerPower

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

TWOHAND834 · « **Reply #35 on:** April 13, 2011, 12:23:03 PM »

Once again you have missed the whole point to this thread. At some point, we have to come up with ideas so that there is a "smidgeon" of integrity in the sport. So you are basically saying that we are damned either way. Base handicap off of 230 and you promote sandbagging or base it off of 210 and you promote rewarding better bowlers. I spoke to a few people last night in my league about this and most actually shared MY sentiments. The one thing we agreed on was this:

Base the handicap off 220. HOWEVER.....if you win a third, the averages you had at the end of that third is the average you will use in the rolloffs. I thought this was a brilliant idea.

Unfortunately you may be in the minority here. I think there is ALOT of validity behind what you say. However, when it comes to the money leagues, I think it hurts more than it helps. Remember Cedar Creek back in the late 90s? There was a money league with $100,000 in the prize fund where to get into the TOP 100 in average, you had to be 205. So yes it is possible if you have the right center with the right manager. There were 5-10 bowlers between 235 and 240 but dont recall much handicap in that league and it was regarded as the league to be in.

Russell wrote on 4/13/2011 10:45 AM:
Okay let's make it 100% of 210...I'll still bowl them for 100 games at $10,000 per game.  Look around in your "money" leagues...what do the majority of the bowlers average? Most of them are between 190 and 200. Let's check the math at 100% of 210:

190 bowler gets 20 pins

They shoot 198 (a good game in the grand scheme of things right?)...with 20 pins they shoot 218.

I average 230....all I have to shoot is 11 pins UNDER my average to beat their GOOD game.  So I get rewarded for being bad?

Eventually the majority of these bowlers will realize they are throwing their money away year in and year out and take their ball(s) and go home. Your league will be down to the bowlers that didn't "need" handicap, and how many bowlers is that....maybe 10% of the league?  Try having a good prize fund with 8/10 teams in a league.

It's not about the high average bowlers NEEDING handicap...it's about keeping people interested in the game. The high average bowlers would much rather have the handicap based on lower numbers, because the math favors them. This idea that handicap helps the 230 bowler is just silly...math doesn't lie.

mainzer wrote on 4/13/2011 8:35 AM:

No I am not saying 80%, when did I type 80%?  I am stating my OPINION.  I see 220+ average bowlers whine about getting handicap, that is BS. I am saying at say 210 no more handicap. Most of the caps around here are out 90-100% or Based off team averages. at 210 you got the horses to compete with better bowlers. at 100% handicap the 190 ave gets enough help and soft condtions and modern gear allow him to make more mistakes and still stay in matches with higher aves. Overall though leagues or either for fun in which case winning/losing shouldnt matter as much as having a great time with friends. Or money leagues in which case if you don't like losing beat the other team, beacuse the league is more competitive people should be working to bowl better. Or make the Money league scratch.

Just my thoughts Russel I know you will tear this apart at some point and it will irk me but this is my opinion. Their are now right/wrongs in this debate we are having I see your side and understand it. I think you see my side. I dont mean to sound like a prick anywhere in the above statment but again that is my opinion.

Russell wrote on 4/10/2011 8:13 PM:

So you're saying at 80% of 210 I don't NEED handicap...and that somehow it is good for the 190 bowler? Please let me bowl them for $10,000 per game and we'll see who "needs" handicap.

mainzer wrote on 4/10/2011 11:13 AM:Russel not everyone can be as great as you. Lol, wow, rip the guy apart more.

IMO if you average more than 210 you shouldn't need handicap anymore. Enough said.

"Complexity lay within the artistry of execution"

+++Henry Zou+++

Founding FatherBR Inquisition
MainzerPower

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

"Complexity lay within the artistry of execution"

+++Henry Zou+++

Founding FatherBR Inquisition
MainzerPower

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

Peace doesnt always have to be silent.

atltnpnr · « **Reply #36 on:** April 13, 2011, 11:30:17 PM »

100% differance between the 2 teams. No team cap. Makes for a very competative league. For a real world exacmple. http://www.leaguesecretary.com/suburban_lanes/monday_night_big_money_league/bowling/league/46466/0/0/0/leaguefilesstandings.aspx

Bowling is like life. Sometimes you are the ball. Other times you are the pins.

trash heap · « **Reply #37 on:** April 14, 2011, 10:05:00 AM »

I agree with your statement. And it's a good example of what really happens. You have a good mix of low average bowlers and high average teams in the standings.

I checked a local league standings (their handicap is 80% of 220). 1st - last place was right in order with team average. Checked that league's standings last year and it was the same thing. What's the point of bowling in a league like this. I for one would not like it...especially if I was on the team with highest average. I bowl to compete and if I am in a league where lower average teams have to bowl 50+ each game just to get to my team's average...that is no challenge.

atltnpnr wrote on 4/13/2011 11:30 PM:
100% differance between the 2 teams. No team cap. Makes for a very competative league. For a real world exacmple. http://www.leaguesecretary.com/suburban_lanes/monday_night_big_money_league/bowling/league/46466/0/0/0/leaguefilesstandings.aspx

Bowling is like life. Sometimes you are the ball. Other times you are the pins.

dR3w · « **Reply #38 on:** April 14, 2011, 10:57:53 AM »

There is no fair way, period. You pick a method, and I will tell you a way that teams can get around it. You can keep layering the rules to try and make it more "fair", but in the end when you have people of different levels competing with one another, and have money involved there is no fair.

What you can have is concession and a mutual agreement that the method chosen is fair enough..

Even the 100% difference in average can be circumvented by teams bowling below average to start, and slowly raising their average all year. Is that cheating, probably by most people's standards, but that is the technique that will win in a league like that. It is not who is more skilled, it is who improves the most over the course of the year.

This is just my 2 cents, and I am sure people won't agree.

dR3w

"This space for rent"

usfan51473 · « **Reply #39 on:** May 14, 2011, 03:57:40 AM »

The leauge i bowl in during winter season is a mixed leauge. They base handicap on 95% of 220. I think its absolutely riduclous. Many times this year we have been beaten by lower average teams b/c one or two people shot 10-15 pins over average. At the meeting this year i'm gonna try to get it lowered or changed to 80% of team difference. I think its a much fairer system.

Russell · « **Reply #40 on:** May 14, 2011, 06:01:59 PM »

So in a HANDICAP league a team won because they SHOT OVER THEIR AVERAGE....and this is some sort of problem that needs to stop?

Why don't you also make it clear that the league should have no way a bowler who isn't bowling scratch should win....because that's what you're trying to do. When you do that and all of the bowlers averaging 190 quit...enjoy your 5 team league.

usfan51473 wrote on 5/14/2011 3:57 AM:
The leauge i bowl in during winter season is a mixed leauge. They base handicap on 95% of 220. I think its absolutely riduclous. Many times this year we have been beaten by lower average teams b/c one or two people shot 10-15 pins over average. At the meeting this year i'm gonna try to get it lowered or changed to 80% of team difference. I think its a much fairer system.

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

TWOHAND834 · « **Reply #41 on:** May 14, 2011, 06:22:57 PM »

Once again for the hardheaded. I am talking about MONEY LEAGUES!!!!! I am not speaking of the $15/wk HANDICAP LEAGUES........God bless. Dont you listen?

??

Randy....give me one GOOD reason why money leagues with large prize funds should be handicapped that much? I got a great idea. Lets start up some pot games and base it off of 90% of 230 on a house shot and lets see how many people show up.

Russell wrote on 5/14/2011 6:01 PM:
So in a HANDICAP league a team won because they SHOT OVER THEIR AVERAGE....and this is some sort of problem that needs to stop?

Why don't you also make it clear that the league should have no way a bowler who isn't bowling scratch should win....because that's what you're trying to do. When you do that and all of the bowlers averaging 190 quit...enjoy your 5 team league.

usfan51473 wrote on 5/14/2011 3:57 AM:

The leauge i bowl in during winter season is a mixed leauge. They base handicap on 95% of 220. I think its absolutely riduclous. Many times this year we have been beaten by lower average teams b/c one or two people shot 10-15 pins over average. At the meeting this year i'm gonna try to get it lowered or changed to 80% of team difference. I think its a much fairer system.

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

Peace doesnt always have to be silent.

hhhbs1 · « **Reply #42 on:** May 14, 2011, 06:40:03 PM »

If its the league I think you are talking about it was a scratch league with a team cap. IMO its a damn if you do or damn if you don't situation. Either way you are not going to make everyone happy and we will always have sandbaggers. I normally avg 210 - 220 and if I was bowling in a "big" money league I would rather have it at 100% of 210 than somthing with 230 or 240. I do like that idea of using the avg you had when you won the 3rd or what not. The only real "fair" way is to have a scratch league with a cap. The hardest part with that is finding the right number to make it as fair as possible.

Track_Fanatic · « **Reply #43 on:** May 14, 2011, 08:45:07 PM »

There will always be ways around a handicap league. There is always going to be bagging no matter what. Let's just all bowl on flat patterns. Let's see what the averages would be throughout that kind of league. Not all 220+ average bowlers know how to bowl on a flat pattern when they are used to bowling on a THS. There is no way of making everyone happy when it comes to handicap. There never will be either.

kidlost2000 · « **Reply #44 on:** May 14, 2011, 10:38:41 PM »

Leave it at 80% of 220. If your team consistently finishes towards the bottom you may want to consider changing your team up, or bowling a different league. At any point when your team has a roll off for a half, quarter or third of a season mark all bowlers average and have a ten pin rule for the next roll off. If your average is more then ten pins higher or lower you bowl off of the higher average. You can change it to five pins or whatever. It will help keep sand bagging to a minimum. It will not help any lower average teams have a better chance of winning.

Be good, or be good at it.

AlBundy33 · « **Reply #45 on:** May 15, 2011, 05:54:48 AM »

From what I have experienced, I think 80% of whatever number stacks in the favor of the better bowler and 90% rewards the sandbaggers. I would like to see a league use 85% of the difference and see how that goes.

90% could work as long as you institute a "10 pin" average rule. But then again, I can only go by what I've seen in the Detroit-area.....I can't speak for what goes on in Atlanta.

"Pretty women make us buy beer, ugly women make us drink beer"

Author Topic: What is a Reasonable Handicap.... (Read 18652 times)

TWOHAND834

What is a Reasonable Handicap....

Russell

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

clint191

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

mainzer

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

Russell

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

TWOHAND834

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

atltnpnr

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

trash heap

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

dR3w

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

usfan51473

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

Russell

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

TWOHAND834

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

hhhbs1

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

Track_Fanatic

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

kidlost2000

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....

AlBundy33

Re: What is a Reasonable Handicap....