Post by: TWOHAND834 on April 05, 2011, 11:21:23 PM
....for money leagues? We got into a debate recently at the fact that leagues that are $20-25 a night, have 30 teams, and the overwhelming majority of the bowlers are over 200, have handicaps based on 220 and even 230. So I thought it would be cool to debate that. If you are in a league where you have a hefty prize fund, what is a "reasonable handicap"? Should it be based off of 210, 220, 230....?
IMO.....handicaps should be based on a lower average, say 210, because I think it would help eliminate some bagging that goes on. Granted there are people in the leagues that average 220+ but the overall majority of the league is 200-210, with similarities in the number of 220 bowlers as there are 190 bowlers. I think that if you continue to have handicaps based on 220-230, you will continue to have teams with a "We won the first third/quarter so we can bag the rest of the year and build up handicap for the rolloffs" mentality. I know it goes on in just about every money league and realize this is a huge uphill battle. But, it has gotten to a point to where I dont care about those types of leagues anymore. I have had more fun in the $15.00/week leagues the past few years than the money leagues. There is a league at a center here that is $15.00/week and takes up almost all 40 lanes.
So what do you guys think? Curious to find out if it was completely up to you, what would you base the handicap on?
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: txbowler on April 06, 2011, 07:44:09 AM
Post by: JOE FALCO on April 06, 2011, 08:16:33 AM
100% of the difference between the two teams! The team that bowls the most under their average lose! How can it be more reasonable?
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Post by: trash heap on April 06, 2011, 11:58:36 AM
Lowering Handicap Base to 210 is not the answer for sandbagging. You cannot stop someone from sandbagging. Its a very hard case to prove.
Your 210 solution is to make those with high averages happy and those with lower averages pissed off! No matter what you do someone is going to be upset. Whether its the high average losing to low average team because their is too much handicap or the Low average team not even having a chance to win because there isn't enough handicap.
USBC has done the studies. Even with handicap set at 100%, the higher average bowler (team) wins more than the lower average bowler (team). The handicap has be a little over 110% for the scenario to even out.
100% Handicap should be used, but the problem I can see is the handicap base. Eventhough I am sure that USBC's study was done across the board. I really think they should look at teams with high average players (225 and up) on them to see how that scenario plays out. The results might be different.
We have seen on the rare occasions those with 235+ averages for a year. Should a base be set to 240 or 250? That might be too high. I personally think 225 or 230 is a good base?
Now what I don't agree with is handicap scores over 300. Sorry...but if the guy with zero handicap can't throw more than a 300 then no one else should either. Call it HANDICAP 300. If a league has multiple handicap 300 games then order should be determined by scratch score. (should be listed in standing sheets with scratch score in parenthesis).
League with handicap set 100% of 230
Bowler A has a 210 average (20 pin handicap) and shoots a 290 game.
Bowler B has a 160 average (70 pin handicap) and shoots a 250 game.
Bowler C has a 235 average (0 pin handicap) and shoots a 290 game.
Bowler D has a 190 average (40 pin handicap) and shoots a 250 game.
For top Handicap Games in Leauge would play out like this :
1st place = Bowler A - 300 (290)
2nd place = Bowler B - 300 (250)
3rd place = Bowler C - 290 (290)
4th place = Bowler D - 290 (250)
Post by: icefiction on April 06, 2011, 12:09:15 PM
I have always put it this way, regardless of the study done by the USBC if you look at the shear probability of the numbers, there are more ways for a lower average bowler to shoot their average opposed to a higher average bowler. Thats just simple math. So when you look at handicap you have to factor that in somewhere. In the big money league I bowl in we use 90% of team difference; this does not work very well at all simply because the vast majority of nights you end up bowling against your 180 bowler who shoots 200 and even if you shoot 20 over your average they still win because of handicap, so you have to shoot even more over your average than they did. If your handicap is based on a number(ie 220) then you are not killed when a high average team faces up against a lower average one, because everyone is based off the same number.
In my honest opinion though, why do we need 90% handicap, why should people be get rewarded for not working as hard as others to be good at the sport they play? Because lets face it, when anyone shoes up to bowl league three things can happen, they bowl their average, they bowl less then their average, or they bowl higher than their average. Nothing else can happen.
Post by: kidlost2000 on April 06, 2011, 01:45:22 PM
No way is perfect. Handicap off 210 means that a team can load up with 210+ average bowlers and should dominate.
If you average 180 you get 80% of 210 (24 pins)
If you average 140 you get 80% of 210 (56 pins)
If you average 211 you get 0 pins
If you all shoot your averages
180 finishes with 204
140 finishes with 196
and 211 wins. 211 can miss his average sum and still win. The lower average bowlers actually have to bowl consistently over their average to compete against the team that is bowling scratch. The scratch team technically does not.
When you have the ability to have teams bowl scratch they have the advantage.
If you average 180 you get 90% of 210 (27 pins)
If you average 140 you get 90% of 210 (63 pins)
If you average 211 you get 90% of 210 (0 pins)
Now when everyone shoots their averages
180 finishes with 207
140 finishes with 203
211 finishes with 211
By the numbers the lower your average even with more handicap you still have to bowl above your average to win.
Be good, or be good at it.
Post by: txbowler on April 06, 2011, 01:56:36 PM
I love the people who reply to this topic that the 180 bowler always shoots 200. If that was the case, the 180 average bowler would have a 200 average, not a 180 average.
A buddy of mine is tracking his stats using an I-Phone app this year. He showed me his statistics a few weeks back. He is around 66% on 10 pins. He is a 197 THS average bowler. He is probably your typical once a week 195-200 guy that can strike pretty well and fire off a 250+ game when he carries, and when he doesn't he struggles to break 170-180 because he's barely above 50% on 10 pins. He probably represents a lot of your typical bowler out there. They can strike, and bowl a big game, but they cannot shoot spares consistently. But in a HDCP match on a THS against a 220 average, if he is carrying, that extra 15 pins he gets in HDCP makes him tough to beat.
But back to my original point. A bowlers average is his average. If he is consistently over that average, the average goes up. Most, if not all of the guys I bowl in leagues with, you know what their averages are. They don't magically get better. Bowlers who have been bowling for 15 years and averaging 185 are not magically going to start practicing and getting better. New people to the sport who have not maximized their learning and potential can raise their average. But at some point, you are as good as you are going to get.
Post by: Pinbuster on April 06, 2011, 01:56:56 PM
My first feeling is that a handicap league should not be a high dollar league. But I know that doesn't seem to fly anymore.
Depending on how many average over 220 and how high it goes. I would tend to say 80% of 220.
Post by: Zanatos1914 on April 06, 2011, 02:03:20 PM
Normally in the Competitive leagues in my area 210 with 80%. handicape is the avg.
My problem with my leagues in my house is the fact all the above avg bowlers normally bowl on the same team and this does include the PBA's. Its really challenging to find some real good female bowlers that arent already taken by the upper better half of the house which really favors them even more.. New teams dont stay long and normally leave after a single season.
Personally with my avg being 205 how can I beat a person with 160 avg with 90% of 210 or higher.. The only difference between my avg and 160 is only 3 controlled shots...
2 Fingers 4 Life
I Am The 3 Fingers Nightmare
Post by: Bahshay on April 06, 2011, 02:04:57 PM
Not following either one of your points.
1. If handicap is 90% of team difference and both teams shoot average, 20 pins above average, whatever, the higher average team will win every single time.
2. Handicap isn't "rewarding" people for not working hard, especially considering they are still at a disadvantage. Its just keeping people interested. I know anything can happen in theory, but my one mens league of 4 people each has ranges of team averages from 650-900. Why would the lower average teams ever show up to bowl if they all need to shoot 50 pins over average and still hope the other team doesnt have to do well? I'm not saying scratch leagues are bad, I'm just saying making every league scratch would instantly rid the league of 90% of the bowlers.
Post by: txbowler on April 06, 2011, 02:11:21 PM
I also feel part of the problem is the higher average bowler believes that he/she should NEVER lose to the lower average bowler.
Post by: sigmaphi9 on April 06, 2011, 02:52:08 PM
It doesn't matter to me what handicap % is used, but I shouldn't be able to shoot 300 scratch and lose, IMHO. Thoughts?
Post by: Zanatos1914 on April 06, 2011, 03:05:14 PM
I agree 100%
2 Fingers 4 Life
I Am The 3 Fingers Nightmare
Post by: 302efi on April 06, 2011, 03:55:18 PM
Couple years ago I was subbing on a mixed league. The team I was subbing against shoots 1442 with cap and these are all 170-80 bowlers....
Also couple years ago on a money league, I shoot 300 scratch and got beat by a 190 bowler that had a good game and shot 306 I beleive...
Food for thought..
quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.
Post by: Andyman3333 on April 06, 2011, 04:31:26 PM
The problem with handicap is that every year, I have to establish a new average. Every friggen year. I've been bowling for 25 years and I have to re-establish every year. Versus using a 3-year or 5-year average. Last year, I took most of the year off, bowled 24 games at the end of the season and booked 230. If that's a 5 year average or a 3 year average of every game at every center, I bet I'm right around 215 to 218. Now I must enter any tournament based on a book average from 24 games at the highest scoring center in town.
So, most complaints about handicap arise for this sole reason. Because someone has a bad run at the start of league, they get 20-30 games in at 185, something clicks, they figure something out and they average 205 for the rest of the season. Their team finishes first. They get accused of sandbagging, they argue otherwise, and the league votes to change the handicap to penalize people like him.
The following year, a bunch of scratch bowlers come in under the new handicap system and blow the league away because the handicap ratio forces the lower average bowlers to bowl above and beyond their average EVERY WEEK to compete. When in the end, an average is just an average. You bowl some games above and some games below.
Personally, it's going to take USBC to establish a standardized handicapping system based on some extensive study to find a cure for the inconsistency from league to league, center to center and state to state. There is no consistency. Sanction an average at a tougher center, enter tournaments at an easy center and POOF, you win entering with your tough bowling center average.
If it were me, I'd take money out of handicap leagues. Handicap leagues should be recreational only. No money allowed. You want to bowl for money, bowl scratch. bowl pro. Hell, you take money out of handicap leagues and I might only have to pay $10-$12 bucks to bowl every week. I'd be thrilled! What a concept.
PROFILE
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340-370 revs
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230 book on THS
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Post by: icefiction on April 06, 2011, 07:28:25 PM
Post by: Russell on April 06, 2011, 09:17:51 PM
Okay look I get tired of the whining from the high average bowlers about handicap....so I'll ask you a question or two Steven:
- Do you bowl any scratch tourneys?
- Do you go out of your way to find level competition?
I think we know the answer to both of those questions. You go to Nationals with weak teams and bowl on weak teams in leagues that you are the big dog in. You hardly bowl in the true competitive leagues anymore and never are seen at scratch tournaments. How can you sit here and whine about handicap being too high in money leagues when you avoid true competition like the plague?
You just want to have the advantage against those not as blessed with athletic ability. You can't win all of the time, and if you want to rape the lower average bowlers....they'll eventually quit (how's the South Gwinnett Men's league doing?.
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Post by: bowlallthetime on April 06, 2011, 09:35:23 PM
Regarding lower average bowlers bowling over average more than a high average bowler: not true on my team. I averaged 215 last year. I bowled over average 50 out of 90 games. My wife, who has been a 155 average bowler for the past 5 years, bowled over average 47/90 games. If it was a new bowler who actually cared about getting better, I'm sure they would have more games over their average than under. But if it is your typical league bowler who keeps roughly the same average every year, they should have roughly the same number of games over as they have under.
Ask your center to give you the end of the year, game by game stats for all bowlers. Please create a spreadsheet so you can see there isn't a difference between high/low average bowlers.
Post by: kidlost2000 on April 06, 2011, 10:14:28 PM
Considering handicap on most leagues and tournaments is usually maxed at 80% of 220, if you average 215-218 or 230 it doesn't matter.
At 215 your losing 4 pins a game.
At 218 your losing 1 pin a game
If it mattered that much you should have not set an average for that year.
Be good, or be good at it.
Post by: trash heap on April 07, 2011, 06:47:20 AM
Does your league establish a new average each year. If so that would make sense. Two reasons: First most leauge bowlers take the summer off. So it takes a while to get back into things. Second: Be honest if there is any kind of prize involved, I guarantee most bowlers are making sure they start out slow. They don't say it ... but you know that is what they are doing.
Post by: TWOHAND834 on April 09, 2011, 06:29:10 PM
First of all, Randy, you are 110% wrong here. You apparently dont know my work schedule. You apparently dont know that I gained custody of my daughter. I would think of all the people on this site, that you would know from personal experience that life changes. It has NOTHING to do with not wanting to "go out of my way to FIND competition". Seriously????? I only wish that I had my own business and set my own hours. I could only wish that my wife didnt care if I got home at 1:00 a.m. because I chose to go bowl 50-60 miles from home. You also apparently have absolutely no clue as to the reason I posted this because if you read it completely, you would have comprehended it the way it should have been. So let me get more in depth for you.
There is a team that won a third. Only 1 person is averaging higher now compared to when they won that third. Most of the bowlers are between 5-10 pins LOWER now compared to 20 weeks ago. They went from winning a third to being in 25th out of 26 teams the last 2 thirds. What do you call that????
Also, FYI, I havent won a league since we bowled together back about 8 years ago; which includes all the "weaker" leagues in which I have supposedly bowled. As you know, there really arent any scratch leagues anymore because people are too scared. I would absolutely LOVE IT if we could get a good scratch league within a reasonable driving distance from the house. That will NEVER happen. If you want to talk a big game, use your connections as a pro shop owner and see if you can get a scratch league up at the center where your shop is located and see how many people show up.
So chill out a little and let people have a friendly conversation about a sport we love to participate in. NOWHERE in my original post did I mention that "this sucks" or "this is bull crap" or anything like that. All I said is that there was a debate one night about what a reasonable handicap was for MONEY LEAGUES and wanted to see what other people thought. Boy I guess I got what I asked for. Thanks for sharing.
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: baseball on April 09, 2011, 07:14:24 PM
in our area scratch leagues have disappeared because the top bowlers get on a couple teams and run away with all the $.then people go back to handicap leagues. answer? balance the teams, but they won't do it, the top bowlers don't want to because they want all the $.
Post by: TWOHAND834 on April 10, 2011, 10:05:58 AM
Thats the big issue in regards to this. People see "scratch" and then they want to stack a team. You turn around and put a cap, say 840-850 and then they run because they know that means they have to bowl with people averaging 190. Scratch leagues have diminished for one reason: averages have gotten too high. Your 230s will only bowl with others averaging that high and the 190s want no part of a scratch league because of the 230s. The ONLY possible way you are going to see bowling get to where it was 10-20 years ago, is make the shots tougher where the ELITE bowlers are averaging 215-220. When bowling really prospered, is when your highest averages were around 215-220 and the league average was 190. Back then, you could have 840 caps on team averages where you would have a 220 bowler with 2 guys at 210 and 1 at 200. In todays world, forget about it. We have a person who is about the set the Greater Atlanta record for average for a full league season. He is averaging in the mid 240s. Who is he going to bowl with next year????
So....unless averages start to drop, bowling will continue to diminish. The answer always seems to be more more more handicap. Granted numbers dont lie. However, either do winning percentages. From where I sit, 240 seems to be the magic number now to have any real success at the league level. He is winning about 70% of his points this year. I am averaging 230 and not sure I am at 60%. Some of the guys with the higher winning percentages are the guys at 200-210 because of that handicap. That person at 200 shooting 225 makes the 230 guy shoot 250 to beat them. I guarantee there are more 220s shot on a given night than a 250.
Here is my idea in hopes of eliminating sandbagging. Whatever averages you have at the time of winning a third/quarter, thats the average you have to use in the rolloffs. In other words; if a team is averaging:
200, 205, 210, 190, 215 = 1020 You win a round at these averages, these are the averages you use in the rolloffs. This will help eliminate bowlers to then go into the rolloffs with: 190, 190, 195, 190, 205 = 970
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: mainzer on April 10, 2011, 11:13:15 AM
IMO if you average more than 210 you shouldn't need handicap anymore. Enough said.
"Complexity lay within the artistry of execution"
+++Henry Zou+++
Founding FatherBR Inquisition
MainzerPower
Post by: sigmaphi9 on April 10, 2011, 03:25:14 PM
Question for you. What base are you using; 220, 230?
Post by: icefiction on April 10, 2011, 06:04:24 PM
i saw somewhere in the thread someone asked about establishing an average each year. The league I bowl in does, and this year they went crazy and decided that you establish and average after your first three games. Needless to say do I even need to give examples of how most bowlers took advantage of this? In my league only team captains are allowed in the meeting before the league begins in september, I am not a captain, but I mean really, 3 games, if thats not intentionaly letting sandbagging happen than what is? When the league president was questioned about why the rule was changed he said it was for the best. He had league high average for four years in a row, his team lost the league those four years, and this year his average is only down a meager 22 pins, coeincidence?
I understand that handicap makes things equal or is at least designed to, but some people need to face facts, and that is bowling can be a second source of income for those who have the right numbers and skill level, and in certain situations these bowlers are the masses and not the minority.
I can also speak to the fact that I do travel to find scratch competition, but given that the amount of money to be won has been cut in half by gas prices, i have chosen not to pursue many options. My house hosted a scratch league this past summer, at the first week no one could agree on averages or handicap, yes handicap was brought up at the scratch league meeting. So as much as you might think that the high average bowlers are just looking out for their own pocket books, some of us just want some equality among the masses.
Post by: Russell on April 10, 2011, 08:13:56 PM
So you're saying at 80% of 210 I don't NEED handicap...and that somehow it is good for the 190 bowler? Please let me bowl them for $10,000 per game and we'll see who "needs" handicap.
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Post by: TWOHAND834 on April 11, 2011, 09:17:20 AM
Correct!!! Once you hit that 210 plateau, you should not need handicap anymore. If you want handicap, go find that $15.00/week "handicap" league where the league average is 175-180 as opposed to 200+ for the money leagues. Why walk into a money league where there will be more 210 and higher bowlers than 190 and lower and then complain about handicap?
For the record, I believe that our league is 90% of 220 and we pay $25.00 a week.
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: storm making it rain on April 11, 2011, 09:42:22 AM
@two hand
Are you really saying that once you get to 210 now a days you don't need handicap?
IMO thats not even close to being true. Are you saying that a 210 guy can compete with a 230-240 guy?
I'll answer that one NO NO he can't. Maybe on a given night the 210 can win, but on a 35 week season I'm willing to bet the 230-240 guy wins 30 out of 35 weeks against the 210 guy at 80% of 210.
just my 2 cents
Post by: Russell on April 11, 2011, 10:05:37 AM
lol...good luck finding enough idiots that suck at math to be stupid enough to give you a 30 pin head start with your high 230s average. You really think you can put a league together and expect someone who averages 205 to donate money when they get 4 pins of cap against your 238 average?
You have a horrible game and shoot 212...
They shoot their average and bowl 205....with handicap it's 209....
You win....and miss your average by 26 pins....yeah that league will do well.
I stand by my comments before. You have complained about handicap a number of times on here....yet you don't show up at scratch tournaments. You really haven't for as long as I have known you. I am not saying every scratch bowler should be out bowling all of the time, but if you're not willing to shoe up with the higher level of competition....what room do you have to complain?
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Edited by Russell on 4/11/2011 at 8:43 PM
Post by: Russell on April 11, 2011, 10:11:21 AM
If this comes out of left field...oh well. I have seen you complain about this same thing a number of times on here. You're a great scorer in league, but you are never seen bowling anything other than leagues and a yearly appearance at Nationals, usually with a weak team.
Now you come on here and think that handicap over a 210 average HELPS a 230 average bowler?
Seriously....go check the math....numbers don't lie. The higher average bowlers will run away and hide if the leagues are stacked that way. It will be great the first year as your team runs away and wins....but next year magically the league is 1/2 the size...as all of the teams averaging 1000 realize they have absolutely NO chance....
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Post by: clint191 on April 11, 2011, 10:38:01 AM
One league I bowled in a few yrs ago made you use the highest avg you carried at any point in the season after 30 gms if your team made the rolloff.
This kept teams from winning the 1st/2nd qtrs and then tanking the rest of the season. You avg 200 and win a qtr and then drop to a 185 avg, oh well it was tough luck. You used the highest avg on rolloff night.
There were still teams w/ 4 "scratch" bowlers in the league that didn't always win. Great hdcp league that was only $15 a week, but was ran very well!!! To bad it starts at 6:15 and I work til 6:30 now:(
Post by: mainzer on April 13, 2011, 08:35:56 AM
No I am not saying 80%, when did I type 80%? I am stating my OPINION. I see 220+ average bowlers whine about getting handicap, that is BS. I am saying at say 210 no more handicap. Most of the caps around here are out 90-100% or Based off team averages. at 210 you got the horses to compete with better bowlers. at 100% handicap the 190 ave gets enough help and soft condtions and modern gear allow him to make more mistakes and still stay in matches with higher aves. Overall though leagues or either for fun in which case winning/losing shouldnt matter as much as having a great time with friends. Or money leagues in which case if you don't like losing beat the other team, beacuse the league is more competitive people should be working to bowl better. Or make the Money league scratch.
Just my thoughts Russel I know you will tear this apart at some point and it will irk me but this is my opinion. Their are now right/wrongs in this debate we are having I see your side and understand it. I think you see my side. I dont mean to sound like a prick anywhere in the above statment but again that is my opinion.
"Complexity lay within the artistry of execution"
+++Henry Zou+++
Founding FatherBR Inquisition
MainzerPower
Post by: Russell on April 13, 2011, 10:45:55 AM
Okay let's make it 100% of 210...I'll still bowl them for 100 games at $10,000 per game. Look around in your "money" leagues...what do the majority of the bowlers average? Most of them are between 190 and 200. Let's check the math at 100% of 210:
190 bowler gets 20 pins
They shoot 198 (a good game in the grand scheme of things right?)...with 20 pins they shoot 218.
I average 230....all I have to shoot is 11 pins UNDER my average to beat their GOOD game. So I get rewarded for being bad?
Eventually the majority of these bowlers will realize they are throwing their money away year in and year out and take their ball(s) and go home. Your league will be down to the bowlers that didn't "need" handicap, and how many bowlers is that....maybe 10% of the league? Try having a good prize fund with 8/10 teams in a league.
It's not about the high average bowlers NEEDING handicap...it's about keeping people interested in the game. The high average bowlers would much rather have the handicap based on lower numbers, because the math favors them. This idea that handicap helps the 230 bowler is just silly...math doesn't lie.
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Post by: TWOHAND834 on April 13, 2011, 12:23:03 PM
Once again you have missed the whole point to this thread. At some point, we have to come up with ideas so that there is a "smidgeon" of integrity in the sport. So you are basically saying that we are damned either way. Base handicap off of 230 and you promote sandbagging or base it off of 210 and you promote rewarding better bowlers. I spoke to a few people last night in my league about this and most actually shared MY sentiments. The one thing we agreed on was this:
Base the handicap off 220. HOWEVER.....if you win a third, the averages you had at the end of that third is the average you will use in the rolloffs. I thought this was a brilliant idea.
Unfortunately you may be in the minority here. I think there is ALOT of validity behind what you say. However, when it comes to the money leagues, I think it hurts more than it helps. Remember Cedar Creek back in the late 90s? There was a money league with $100,000 in the prize fund where to get into the TOP 100 in average, you had to be 205. So yes it is possible if you have the right center with the right manager. There were 5-10 bowlers between 235 and 240 but dont recall much handicap in that league and it was regarded as the league to be in.
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: atltnpnr on April 13, 2011, 11:30:17 PM
100% differance between the 2 teams. No team cap. Makes for a very competative league. For a real world exacmple. http://www.leaguesecretary.com/suburban_lanes/monday_night_big_money_league/bowling/league/46466/0/0/0/leaguefilesstandings.aspx
Bowling is like life. Sometimes you are the ball. Other times you are the pins.
Post by: trash heap on April 14, 2011, 10:05:00 AM
I agree with your statement. And it's a good example of what really happens. You have a good mix of low average bowlers and high average teams in the standings.
I checked a local league standings (their handicap is 80% of 220). 1st - last place was right in order with team average. Checked that league's standings last year and it was the same thing. What's the point of bowling in a league like this. I for one would not like it...especially if I was on the team with highest average. I bowl to compete and if I am in a league where lower average teams have to bowl 50+ each game just to get to my team's average...that is no challenge.
Post by: dR3w on April 14, 2011, 10:57:53 AM
There is no fair way, period. You pick a method, and I will tell you a way that teams can get around it. You can keep layering the rules to try and make it more "fair", but in the end when you have people of different levels competing with one another, and have money involved there is no fair.
What you can have is concession and a mutual agreement that the method chosen is fair enough..
Even the 100% difference in average can be circumvented by teams bowling below average to start, and slowly raising their average all year. Is that cheating, probably by most people's standards, but that is the technique that will win in a league like that. It is not who is more skilled, it is who improves the most over the course of the year.
This is just my 2 cents, and I am sure people won't agree.
dR3w
"This space for rent"
Post by: usfan51473 on May 14, 2011, 03:57:40 AM
The leauge i bowl in during winter season is a mixed leauge. They base handicap on 95% of 220. I think its absolutely riduclous. Many times this year we have been beaten by lower average teams b/c one or two people shot 10-15 pins over average. At the meeting this year i'm gonna try to get it lowered or changed to 80% of team difference. I think its a much fairer system.
Post by: Russell on May 14, 2011, 06:01:59 PM
So in a HANDICAP league a team won because they SHOT OVER THEIR AVERAGE....and this is some sort of problem that needs to stop?
Why don't you also make it clear that the league should have no way a bowler who isn't bowling scratch should win....because that's what you're trying to do. When you do that and all of the bowlers averaging 190 quit...enjoy your 5 team league.
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Post by: TWOHAND834 on May 14, 2011, 06:22:57 PM
Once again for the hardheaded. I am talking about MONEY LEAGUES!!!!! I am not speaking of the $15/wk HANDICAP LEAGUES........God bless. Dont you listen??????
Randy....give me one GOOD reason why money leagues with large prize funds should be handicapped that much? I got a great idea. Lets start up some pot games and base it off of 90% of 230 on a house shot and lets see how many people show up.
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: hhhbs1 on May 14, 2011, 06:40:03 PM
If its the league I think you are talking about it was a scratch league with a team cap. IMO its a damn if you do or damn if you don't situation. Either way you are not going to make everyone happy and we will always have sandbaggers. I normally avg 210 - 220 and if I was bowling in a "big" money league I would rather have it at 100% of 210 than somthing with 230 or 240. I do like that idea of using the avg you had when you won the 3rd or what not. The only real "fair" way is to have a scratch league with a cap. The hardest part with that is finding the right number to make it as fair as possible.
Post by: Track_Fanatic on May 14, 2011, 08:45:07 PM
There will always be ways around a handicap league. There is always going to be bagging no matter what. Let's just all bowl on flat patterns. Let's see what the averages would be throughout that kind of league. Not all 220+ average bowlers know how to bowl on a flat pattern when they are used to bowling on a THS. There is no way of making everyone happy when it comes to handicap. There never will be either.
Post by: kidlost2000 on May 14, 2011, 10:38:41 PM
Leave it at 80% of 220. If your team consistently finishes towards the bottom you may want to consider changing your team up, or bowling a different league. At any point when your team has a roll off for a half, quarter or third of a season mark all bowlers average and have a ten pin rule for the next roll off. If your average is more then ten pins higher or lower you bowl off of the higher average. You can change it to five pins or whatever. It will help keep sand bagging to a minimum. It will not help any lower average teams have a better chance of winning.
Be good, or be good at it.
Post by: AlBundy33 on May 15, 2011, 05:54:48 AM
From what I have experienced, I think 80% of whatever number stacks in the favor of the better bowler and 90% rewards the sandbaggers. I would like to see a league use 85% of the difference and see how that goes.
90% could work as long as you institute a "10 pin" average rule. But then again, I can only go by what I've seen in the Detroit-area.....I can't speak for what goes on in Atlanta.
"Pretty women make us buy beer, ugly women make us drink beer"
Post by: txbowler on May 15, 2011, 12:12:25 PM
I posted this in another thread but it belongs here too...
What does every league need? Donators. What does everyone who bowls in a league not want to be? A Donator
There in lies the problem. How you do attract donators to get your Big Prize Fund? The answer is handicap.
How else does do you get teams of five 180-185 average bowlers to bowl in a mens league against a team stacked with five 210+ average bowlers. The 180 guys have to believe at the start of the year that they have some chance of competing. Why else would they spend $720 (36 weeks @ $20) if they knew up front they had no chance to win?
Make it scratch you say? Well then, you just lost the 4 teams of 180 averages, and the 6 teams of 190-195 as well because they know they cannot beat the five 210+ guys. So your big money league is now a small money league because it's only the 4 scratch teams left, and now they don't want to bowl because there is no money.
You always have to have donators. But you also have to make it seem like at the start of the year that there are no donators. Otherwise, the donators leave, and either you become the donator, or you don't have a league.
Edited by txbowler on 5/15/2011 at 12:14 PM
Post by: BrianCRX90 on May 15, 2011, 12:25:20 PM
Around 65-70% of 200 or 210 with a cap of 160. In other words, you can't get anymore handicap past 160 and down.
Post by: hhhbs1 on May 15, 2011, 01:03:43 PM
That is why you have to cap the team avg in a scratch league. Having a cap makes the 230+ people need a 180 or 190 bolwer on thier team to get under the cap. That is the only way you can have a scratch "big" money league. 4 team league with a cap of between 840 to 860 might not be that bad.
Post by: trash heap on May 16, 2011, 08:12:12 AM
You have to be joking??? Based on this handicap system, just make it a scratch league.
For all of those who want below 90%: The object of the league is to have competition. I see many statements on this site about achieving and making the shots when it counts. Yet you who chose this type of handicap want it easy. You don't want any team with a lower average to beat your team ever.
So you thinking is like this:
"I buy expensive equipment, practice every week, and this guy who just threw a 220 (160 average) wouldn't stand a chance against me in scratch. It must be a mistake. He has to be sandbagging. Anyone with a 160 average should NOT throw 60 pins over his average (Yet I carry a 210 average and have thrown numerous 270+ games in the year, but that is different). We need to have a league meeting and stop this"
You should be welcoming these bowlers into your league. Instead you call them cheats, when you lose to them. Your not helping getting new bowlers into this sport.
Why can't a guy with 160 average shoot a high 600 series? With the new equipment and on the THS, it makes pefect sense it can happen! We all have nights where throwing the ball was easy and we scored very high.
Nobody likes to lose. I always play to win, but when I lose I don't immediately think sandbagging. Its usually because of my lack of abilitiy (or my teams) that night. Yes there have been times that I have thrown 260+ and lose to someone who throws a low 200 game (140 average). Its part of the game.
We have all been in this sport long enough to tell the difference from a legit 160 average bowler and cheating 160 average bowler (who really has a 200+ average). You can tell.
When dealing with big money, there is no question the temptation to cheat is greater. Setting the percentage below 90% is not the answer. You need a committee to watch over this (Maybe its all team captains). It just can't be the officers. If you see someone (or a team) that seems to pour it on at the end every time or seem to miss spares at the end of a game when the lead is huge, then let them know they will be looked at.
You have to be upfront with this league policy. No team is exempt. It has to be a written complaint. The person writing the complaint must give detail information of the game or series bowled. Simply stating a team is cheating and leaving it to the committee figure it out is not good enough. If you get a enough complaints on a certain team, then that could be a red flag. Maybe just stating you league has a committee might be enough of a deterrent to keep the cheating teams out.
Of course that will probably never happen. Most that bowl leagues don't want to get involved.
Another idea is to make the oil pattern more difficult, but usually when that happens you lose bowlers. You got alot of league bowlers that will get upset about averaging 30 - 40 pins less.
The idea of setting a low average cap, isn't a bad idea. I would think anyone below 160 probably wouldn't want to join a big money league.
Post by: txbowler on May 16, 2011, 08:59:18 AM
I don't understand it. In order for there to be big money leagues, you must have lots of bowlers who LOSE. And those bowlers must be willing to bowl and LOSE. The only way I know to make bowlers show up and bowl is to make it appear competitive for every team.
And around here, most bowlers want to bowl with their friends, so cap leagues do not work well.
HDCP does. At 90% of the difference between teams, the higher average teams tend to migrate towards the top of the standings, but the highest average team does not always win the league.
And I think that is where some of the egos get in the way. We averaged the highest, we SHOULD win!!!!
If your team starts out the 1st half of the year averaging 1050, and the 2nd half averaging 950, while team 2 averages 900 the 1st half of the year, and 1025 the 2nd half, team 2 may win the league even though team 1 had a higher average. It does matter when you bowl well.
Post by: TWOHAND834 on May 16, 2011, 09:34:26 AM
That is my point exactly. It depends on where you live and how many 200+ average bowlers you have. I come from a place where 200+ bowlers (on THS) grow on trees. There are plenty of leagues in the area to where the 170 bowler needs to probably stay in leagues with others in their average range. If you are 170 and you know 90% of the bowlers in that league are going to hand you your rear end every week, dont sign up until you get better or stop complaining. There are probably 10 handicap leagues for every one money league.
We are damned if we do and damned if we dont. The reason we cant fill an entire center with a money league is because of the handicap being too high. There are decent leagues in a couple centers around my area, but think that the reason we dont fill a center wall to wall is because your handicap base.
In my opinion, if you marketed a league as a big money classic league with low handicap and a 850 cap, as the line says in Field of Dreams, "If you build it, they will come."
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: icefiction on May 16, 2011, 09:52:22 AM
Post by: trash heap on May 16, 2011, 10:35:02 AM
I thought the whole issue of this topic was a reasonable handicap. And the main reason was to fill the league.
If you have a large amount of 200+ average bowlers and can fill a league, then great. Set a league that works for these bowlers.
If don't have that kind of bowlers in your area, what are you going to do. 90% is not a bad number. I am not sure why you all think this is terrible. 90% is still giving the higher average team the advantage.
How about this:
5 per team on a league.
Max Team Cap is 1100. 800 is low end. You get no more handicap if your team drops below 800.
The handicap is based on individual average set at 90% of 225.
Now let's look at it.
1. A high average team (218 average per bowler) at 1090 would get team handicap of 31. (Total = 1121)
2. A above average team (205 average per bowler) at 1025 would get team handicap of 90. (Total = 1115)
3. An average team (185 average per bowler) at 925 would get team handicap of 180. (Total = 1105)
4. A low average team (160 average per bowler) at 800 would get team handicap of 292. (Total = 1092)
*** So if your team is not good and drops below 800. 292 is all you can get as a team. ***
Right at the beginning. Team 4 would have to bowl almost 30 pins to get to Team 1's average. Yeah that is 3 marks for 5 players to make up, but a low average team is very inconsistent. I am going to say that Team 1 can rally alot better at the end of the game over Team 4.
Post by: Russell on May 16, 2011, 10:05:53 PM
Steven your thoughts are so horribly misguided....200 bowlers don't "grow on trees" here in Atlanta. Let's take a look at the league in question:
I count 58 regular roster bowlers that don't average 200...we should just send them packing back to their weaker leagues with the cretons right? Well your "money league" just lost almost 12 teams worth of people. How's that prize fund look now?
The pot game analogy doesn't hold water either...you're comparing apples to oranges. Go ahead and fight for handicap that sticks it in the *** of all of the "lesser" bowlers. Let's see how long they hang around after giving up $900 to get back $100 after 9 months....YAY!!!!!
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Post by: TWOHAND834 on May 17, 2011, 09:44:35 AM
Okay but you look at one league. I am referring to the city as a whole. You are going to sit there and honestly say that if you promoted a league that was $25.00/night, $10.00 lineage, low handicap, 4 man team with a 850 cap, that given a couple years with the bowlers we have in this HUGE metro area that you could not make it happen? Because money talks my friend. If you got the word out to the Greg Blacks, Charles Jordans, John Qualtroughs, Dannial Cohens, and many others who are constantly looking for that very thing, that they would not show up?
Here is another thing about that league your posted. One reason more people did not average over 200 in that league, is because you should have seen the baggers that were in there. They averaged in the 200-210 range and then bagged the rest of the season to get as many sticks as they could before the end of the season.
I just know that back when league bowling thrived in this area, money leagues were based on low handicap and huge prize funds; and there were still plenty of people averaging 225+.
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: Russell on May 17, 2011, 12:38:01 PM
Steven where have you been?
There are leagues like that all over the city, and they are folding left and right....BOWLING IS DYING!!!
If you want a shining example....South Gwinnett Mens...we destroyed that league one year, then Q's team...2 years later it was gone. People got tired of donating money to scratch bowlers so they went elsewhere. Some of them have quit altogether. The playing field needs to be leveled, the more you tilt it towards the few players that actually give a crap about a money league, the more average Joe's you'll lose.
The examples of good leagues going under is all over the place. The big league at Cedar Creek that used to have a waiting list and be 40 teams x 5 players is down to like 24 teams of 4 players now....the high average bowlers aren't the ones quitting...look at who's not there anymore...it's the donators getting tired of being pillaged by primadonnas who just have more equipment and time than they do.
Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"
Post by: Juggernaut on May 17, 2011, 01:14:01 PM
Reasonable handicap?
Don't make me laugh. There is NO SUCH THING.
First, EVERBODY would have to agree on what the term "reasonable" means. Does it mean that the lower average guys have the CHANCE to keep up, or does it guarantee they can? Does it mean that the high average guys COULD win the league, or does it guarantee they will?
"REASONABLE" depends on who you ask.
Post by: imjouster on May 18, 2011, 07:10:07 PM
Just give a quick post here... didn't read through all the posts so if this has been mentioned before... my bad :P. What we do on our wednesday night league (highest average league in the state)... We use 5 man teams. and individual bowlers do not get handicap. We take the difference in the team averages and then assign handicap to the team with the lower averages. BUT the MAX handicap a team can have is 100 pins. So if you have 2 teams one with a team average of 1100 and the other with an average of 1040. The lower averaged team will be getting 60 pins of handicap. If you have 2 teams and team A have an average of 1150 and Team B has an average of 1025, Team B will get a flat 100 pins of handicap.
It encourages people not to sandbag, because at the end of the year they may end up being 170 pins below one of the teams they are having to bowl in the roll offs, and they end up hurting themselves by sandbagging. It also rewards those teams who have higher averages. Because if they happen to bowl a team that has an average of more than 100 pins less than them, they don't have to bowl as well as the other team (in respects to hitting average) in order to win their points. You get 1 point per game and 1 point for series, so 4 points possible per night.
This is probably the most fun league I've ever been a part of, and it REALLY works out well for everybody.