BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: RotoStorm864 on April 07, 2013, 03:39:28 PM
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Ok. Serious question ive been wondering about for awhile. What really separates storm and roto grip from the competition? Storm and roto have dominated on tv for a while now and every tournament I go to you seen a ton of theyre stuff and they all look great. Is it the covers? Cores? They're lineup just always seems so complete.
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It's the covers. Did you watch today's telecast? Notice how those using Storm were able to get their balls to the breakpoint, while the EBI balls seemed to read early? That's really it. The DV8 stuff didn't look too bad either.
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I am not knocking the Storm balls, but I think they have more top bowlers than the other companies, but I could be wrong there, so don't quote me.
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IMO, the Storm and Roto Grip covers seem to take changes better than what I've seen with other brands. Plus, I like the versatility of the products.
Now I'm not knocking EBI, Brunswick, or any other make. All of the manufacturers make good products. I even have some stuff from Track, Ebonite and Hammer. I've just been more successful throwing Storm/Roto Grip since their cover/core combos match my game better and pretty much exclusively use them now.
@Brickguy221: Storm does have a majority of pro bowlers on their staff. That's why we see them more often. Also a lot of the free agents (DeVaney, Daugherty, Patrick Allen, and so on use their products more often than not.)
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Id say it is the bowlers more then the equipment. Some people will match up differently to different brands. Ive had the most success with Brunswick and throw it 99% of the time. I still enjoy trying other brands just to try something different. In many cases I find the product to be good but not great. I get that with any brand but have had more hits then misses with Brunswick brands.
I love the look of the Motiv stuff and tried several but only loved one. Many would go on to say they make bad products ect ect because one or several balls didn't work for them. Its not the case it just doesn't do what id like for my game. Same with some other brands.
If a company makes bad products you will know because that will be the company going out of business.
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Best brand marketing in the industry. Other than that, nothing.
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Absolutely nothing. BTW, I was a Roto Staffer for 3 years before leaving.
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I've had 3-4 balls from Storm that worked well for me, but I have had more that didn't work than those that did work. The ones that did well for me are the old Firestorm, Depth Charge, Triple XXX, and solid Nano and polished shiny enough to look like the Nano Pearl.
I have had good succes with Ebonite balls with the V2 Core.
Currently, the brand of balls that work best for me is Brunswick, especially the Meanstreak & Versa-Max. Will be trying a DV8 Ball soon.
I appologize for getting off the subject of the topic. Don't mean to hi-jack the tread.
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Best brand marketing in the industry. Other than that, nothing.
I agree they have the best marketing but that is not the only reason they are better, like others have said their covers and cores are more reliable and predictable.
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I haven't thrown a Storm in a while, but I believe it's the easy length and improved backend transition. Storm's several years ago were traditionally long and strong, when they hit friction, they went nuts. The transition has smoothed out, while still maintaining the easy length, meaning the pros can get a handful at the bottom and not worry about it moving early. This also means when the shot starts breaking down that they will get more subtle warning (ie, 4 pin instead of big 4), and should be able to hold a line longer than other stuff.
I've recently drilled a Yellow Pearl Misfit and Brutal Nightmare, and as far as DV8 goes, it's MUCH better on a tight fresh shot than other companies, there's an extra board or two to the right in the oil because of their backend transition, but everything seems to roll the same, just varies in hook potential. I also have a Motiv Sigma Tour, and although Motiv has a tendency to "stand up," the reaction is super clean. Storm has the most versatility in their lineup if you want to stay with one company. They have long and strong, early and smooth, somewhere in the middle, snappy pearls, smooth pearls, snappy solids, smooth solids, etc.
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Simple! It's the Scent. When your ball smells good, you bowl good. Storm has been the only ones to figure it out.
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More wins... Marketing doesn't win tournaments. Bowlers, with the right ball to the conditions wins tournaments. Storm has more of them. Proof? It's in the pudding.
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Numbers. They have fantastic Pro Staffers, and a lot of them.
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It has to do with how each cover/company responds to friction...on the fresh most of the manufacturers look very similar...it's what they do thru transition or after the fronts go...Storm/Roto has the upperhand at this point. They have a cleaner/quicker response to friction than the other companies, plain & simple, has nothing to do with the amount of staffers...
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Numbers. They have fantastic Pro Staffers, and a lot of them.
+1 .... Amen to what Nick said.....
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Interesting you think that....the amount of staffers are quite close in number...
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JR just curious why you think they have a cleaner/quicker response to friction vs others? Why others aren't able to have the same reaction through surface adjustments if thats whats needed for the tour?
My scope with RG is limited but the last ball I tried was the Mutant Cell Pearl. Good ball(damn pretty in colors) but didn't stand out in terms of reaction. Most of the stuff I throw is Brunswick and the DV8 stuff I tried really fit that discription of clean through the heads with a quick response to friction. Thats with the Misfits and Too Reckless not the upper tier stuff.
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Why do I think? Cause I know...it's not what a bowling ball does in oil or due to surface, it's what they do in friction. When making a statement such as 'such & such a ball is clean and has a quick or fast response' is irresponsible, at best, due to the fact that it is not a true test or example...you are basing on your opinion and YOURS only...it is your perception. When basing an educated opinion, it is one seen thru unbiased eyes and gauging what you see thru the whole lane, not from the foul line thru your eyes and preconceived perceptions. Due to certain restraints, that's the best answer I can offer...
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Ok was just curious if you had a little more to elaborate on it and if others on tour could get in the ball park through surface adjustments.
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A good example is watch how certain players excel early versus later in blocks and what they're using...
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Makes sense.
I look forward to trying a Storm Lights Out it is the right color and right performance line for the conditions I bowl on. The lower tier equipment is tough to beat theses days.
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Makes sense.
I look forward to trying a Storm Lights Out it is the right color and right performance line for the conditions I bowl on. The lower tier equipment is tough to beat theses days.
The "right color"?
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Matching outfit (:
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I prefer darker colors or solid colors when possible. Too many of these really really bright color bowling balls are hard to see going down the lane and how they are transitioning when they do. Its the popular trend among many manufactures.
If you refer to what you wear to a bowling alley as an outfit your not a bowler lol
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Lol...+1 on explanation on colors....and they're centers not alleys (:
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They do make good stuff, but alot has to do with popularity. Remember chuckies, reebox pumps, and jordans. Not really better just more popular. I think all the pros could switch brands and the elite would still show.
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Because one type of ball "supposedly" excels on friction that somehow sets them apart? If there were decidedly an advantage to using a companies' ball, EVERYONE would be using them given the low amount of money those guys are bowling for.
Last year's POY threw Brunswick equipment.
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Because one type of ball "supposedly" excels on friction that somehow sets them apart? If there were decidedly an advantage to using a companies' ball, EVERYONE would be using them given the low amount of money those guys are bowling for.
Last year's POY threw Brunswick equipment.
Chris Barnes is getting a pretty nice contract to throw Columbia, but he doesn't win as much with them as I think he could with somebody else. Bottom line, if some company offers you GUARANTEED money to throw their equipment, given the low amount of money these guys are bowling for (your own words), I'd take that over using balls that may give me an advantage but don't guarantee wins.
And I wouldn't argue with Rico, he knows what he's talking about. If you don't agree with him, you're wrong, bottom line.
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There are 2 ways to look that comment...yes, players are paid by companies to use that equipment...so they will and do find a way to best maximize that equipment...but at what point does a player match up with said equipment or do they either change their games to utilize that equipment, thus devaluing their natural abilities or necessitate manipulation to said equipment?
As I mentioned earlier, in a sense due to integrity, there is only so much I will post, but understand, certain styles of players will benefit certain motions created by certain covers...others will go where the money leads them...and in true side by side comparisons, you'd be surprised...and it has nothing to do with 'if it was the greatest equipment, everyone would be throwing it'...certain styles do NOT match up well with all motions/reactions...there are more variables, the biggest is response to friction...this is what effects angles and what angles are being created by this...if they are proper for pin carry...optimum pin carry is created by proper entry angle...
Sorry you do not feel this is true...your opinion is yours...but be open minded and don't believe all the marketing or what the reps profess...they're paid to...
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And one more thought...we are talking 2 different landscapes here...you have 2 diverse conditions that these are being used on...one that tends to have a higher volume of conditioner in the front & middle and friction side to side plus down lane, thus creating a certain reaction created by the lane, which nullifies certain differences in the covers to a condition that has the conditioner on a flatter ratio side to side, less build up in the middle & front or basically the length of the pattern...less built in hook or friction to dictate motion...a truer test of reaction created by the covers than the lane. It's like comparing miniature golf to US Open conditions...
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I'll simply simply say we are both offering opinions based on our experiences and NOT from marketing or reps. Nor am I referencing softer conditions where everything looks the same. I understand that you are one of the most respected members here and have an extremely strong pedigree. Just don't make assumptions about other member's opinions and how they were formed.
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I do not try to make assumptions about anyone else's experiences merely offering how I derived my experience or opinion, which tend to be more based upon science than what my eye believes, which tend to be contradictory...we have history when forming opinions, the hardest is eliminating our own preference and trusting science. If you throw a bowling ball, you will have some form of preconceived notion, whether you admit it or not of what the ball will or should do...trust me, I had to retrain my thought process and understand what constitutes a true test or real results...this is not an attack on anyone...just offering what I believe or have seen...accept it or not, that is your right...as is agreeing to disagree...a discussion generally does not always work via a website thru posts...
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Why do I think? Cause I know...it's not what a bowling ball does in oil or due to surface, it's what they do in friction.
This...from what I have seen and experienced through the last couple years going from throwing nothing but Storm, to being on staff with another company and then using gear through another manufacturers authorized pro shop, where Storm has the biggest advantage IMO is their mid-lines and lower products.
I also agree that upper end stuff you really can't tell a difference, but in the lower line stuff is where I saw the biggest difference reaction wise, the gear from other manufacturers didnt clear the fronts or give me near the look I was used to having on med and lighter tournament patterns.
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strorm has no true advantage. The only advantage they could have is in a bowlers mind.
Personally you couldnt pay me enough to use the stuff.
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Thank you for that truly unbiased opinion....
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Thank you for that truly unbiased opinion....
Thanks for throwing my opinion under the bus beacuse of what is written in my signature...This is why i try to avoid posting in these forums, everyone elses opinion is better than yours.
can you prove to me Storm is Better? do they hit 20% harder? Hook 5 extra boards? Carry more hits?
i am not arguing for the sake of arguing alot of people around here use storm/rg. I have never understood the love affair. I have not had sucess with it. I enjoy being the guy throwing something different. I enjoy being the guy putting up big numbers NOT using the same ball everyone else is.
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Thank you for that truly unbiased opinion....
Thanks for throwing my opinion under the bus beacuse of what is written in my signature...This is why i try to avoid posting in these forums, everyone elses opinion is better than yours.
can you prove to me Storm is Better? do they hit 20% harder? Hook 5 extra boards? Carry more hits?
i am not arguing for the sake of arguing alot of people around here use storm/rg. I have never understood the love affair. I have not had sucess with it. I enjoy being the guy throwing something different. I enjoy being the guy putting up big numbers NOT using the same ball everyone else is.
So since you obviously don't know who Rico is . . I won't tell you, but you're missing the point here. He's not talking about league bowlers on a house shot, the original question is why does there seem to be so many Storm staffed pros on tv all the time. Rick Benoit, a world famous coach, maybe the best in the world, has the same opinion as Rico. Storm also has the widest range of ball reactions in their lineup. It's ok to be different, but when you're in a league setting, what does it matter? You could take a rock out of the parking lot and score with it on a house shot, but your comments here had NOTHING to do with the original question or the resulting debate.
"can you prove to me Storm is Better? do they hit 20% harder? Hook 5 extra boards? Carry more hits?"
That is a totally bent house bowler attitude. When one person's opinion is based on blind ignorance, and someone else's opinion is based on industry knowledge and experience . . yeah, I'm gonna go with the second one. Has nothing to do with your signature and everything to do with your attitude and lack of conceptual understanding. Crap, now you've got me sounding like Long Duck Dong Daddy . .
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Mainzer, I believe the OP is talking about the TV pros & tournament successes that Storm has... Not in the local tournament/rec leagues people here are in... the national scope.
As far as rico's response to you, after your "personally couldn't pay me enough to use the (Storm's) stuff." comment combined with your sig line...? It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to come up with a conclusion here...
So no, Storm doesn't match up with you, you don't match up with Storm... We got it. But there's a heck of a lot of people it does. And they are dominating the win, place & show columns. The OP is asking "why?". Not why you don't like Storm... That could be a separate topic all on it's own... A "Why do you dislike ______ (ball mfr)?" thread, LoL!!
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It doesn't really matter who he is. An opinion is an opinion; that's it. Being who he is may give more weight to his opinion or mean he has better resources to form an opionion, but it's still just an opinion and not a fact.
Pros and industry insiders are subject to marketing and being influenced just as much as anyone else.
I don't have anything against Storm - I'm fairly sure one of my 300s was with one of their balls. Simple logic says that in an industry as competitive as the bowling ball industry is right now with all the different smaller companies and mega-companies that one company is unlikely to be far superior to all of the others in every way. I suppose it's possible, but very highly unlikely. So the question is a fair one (though I think the OP meant it as a chest thumping post)...I guess the real question should be why do people THINK Storm is so much better?
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So since you obviously don't know who Rico is . . I won't tell you, but you're missing the point here. He's not talking about league bowlers on a house shot, the original question is why does there seem to be so many Storm staffed pros on tv all the time. Rick Benoit, a world famous coach, maybe the best in the world, has the same opinion as Rico. Storm also has the widest range of ball reactions in their lineup.
Exactly, people having their opinions based on their personal experiences. Unless there is published empirical data establishing a defined difference in reaction, then that's all we are entitled to. But at least have some evidence to go along with your opinions. I've been with 3 different companies. I've drilled countless balls. I have a strong interest in the scientific method so I evaluate my findings and incorporate others and if that means forming another conclusion or retesting, I do.
You say "Storm also has the widest range of ball reactions in their lineup." So what exactly are you basing that on? Number of balls? Have you thrown every companies ball and found a reaction in Storm that other's didn't? I'll tell you when I was a Storm/Roto staffer, there was a tremendous amount of overlap in balls. That's because they reuse the same cover in so many balls. Why do you need 5 different balls with XYZ cover?
Storm makes fantastic equipment. So does everyone else. Find the reaction you like and go practice.
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As I have stated previously...my 'personal' opinion is based on scientific data as well as testing...I do not base on, as ALL of you have, thru marketing or otherwise preconceived connotations on what a bowling balls does or is going to do thru your eyes and your ball motion. You have a certain comfortable shape in your mind on what you wanna see...
Not a single one of you, I can guarantee, has taken 2 bowling balls that may be compared, drilled them exactly the same and thrown them the same amount of times to do a TRUE comprehensive evaluation and viewed the reactions (assuming you can understand true ball motion) unbiasedly...I'm not trying to sale anyone on one ball over another, I can personally careless...who I am is important to me and the ones I work with...which is as many as I want to...I'm not looking to be in the public eye as others do...I'm happy helping those that I do...so throw the bowling balls you choose and have a good time with the game...but understand there is an expansive difference between what a huge majority bowl on and what the pros bowl on....
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Exactly, it all comes back to matching up with the product. I'm a Storm/Roto guy, have been for a long time. But i've also thrown pieces from nearly every other company out there and always come back to the Utah brand. I'm also a pro shop operator and while I do push Storm stuff, I realize it's not for everyone and if a customer wants a EBI or Brunswick brand or any other brand for that matter my simple response is "honestly every company makes good stuff these days"
Now back to what the pros are using (stated before on this thread) i'd venture to say that is a guy like Chris Barnes really thought that Storm would give him the ability to win more titles (hence more money) he would jump onto that ship. And on the other hand the free agent guys seem to lean towards the Utah stuff more often than not, and if they're winning/making more money why wouldn't they?
So since you obviously don't know who Rico is . . I won't tell you, but you're missing the point here. He's not talking about league bowlers on a house shot, the original question is why does there seem to be so many Storm staffed pros on tv all the time. Rick Benoit, a world famous coach, maybe the best in the world, has the same opinion as Rico. Storm also has the widest range of ball reactions in their lineup.
Exactly, people having their opinions based on their personal experiences. Unless there is published empirical data establishing a defined difference in reaction, then that's all we are entitled to. But at least have some evidence to go along with your opinions. I've been with 3 different companies. I've drilled countless balls. I have a strong interest in the scientific method so I evaluate my findings and incorporate others and if that means forming another conclusion or retesting, I do.
You say "Storm also has the widest range of ball reactions in their lineup." So what exactly are you basing that on? Number of balls? Have you thrown every companies ball and found a reaction in Storm that other's didn't? I'll tell you when I was a Storm/Roto staffer, there was a tremendous amount of overlap in balls. That's because they reuse the same cover in so many balls. Why do you need 5 different balls with XYZ cover?
Storm makes fantastic equipment. So does everyone else. Find the reaction you like and go practice.
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So since you obviously don't know who Rico is . . I won't tell you, but you're missing the point here. He's not talking about league bowlers on a house shot, the original question is why does there seem to be so many Storm staffed pros on tv all the time. Rick Benoit, a world famous coach, maybe the best in the world, has the same opinion as Rico. Storm also has the widest range of ball reactions in their lineup.
Exactly, people having their opinions based on their personal experiences. Unless there is published empirical data establishing a defined difference in reaction, then that's all we are entitled to. But at least have some evidence to go along with your opinions. I've been with 3 different companies. I've drilled countless balls. I have a strong interest in the scientific method so I evaluate my findings and incorporate others and if that means forming another conclusion or retesting, I do.
You say "Storm also has the widest range of ball reactions in their lineup." So what exactly are you basing that on? Number of balls? Have you thrown every companies ball and found a reaction in Storm that other's didn't? I'll tell you when I was a Storm/Roto staffer, there was a tremendous amount of overlap in balls. That's because they reuse the same cover in so many balls. Why do you need 5 different balls with XYZ cover?
Storm makes fantastic equipment. So does everyone else. Find the reaction you like and go practice.
I'm basing that on being a pro shop operator for the last 7 years and having a lot of experience with ALL brands of equipment, throwing balls, and hosting several different companies demo days, as well as interactions with staffers from different companies. Every company will have overlap, but Storm has the most differences in ball roll, not hook potential. Storm has balls that are long and strong, and also balls that are early and smooth, and that means that FOR A PRO who is contractually obligated to throw Storm/Roto, that they will be able to match up better with more conditions and those conditions in various states of transition. Every company has identifiable reaction characteristics, hence why certain styles match up better with certain companies. Storm seems to be able to match up with a wider range of styles than the other companies do. And every company reuses covers . .
Remember, this is a Storm on the PBA tour discussion, not Joe Blow on a house shot discussion, and there's much more to consider and look at when it comes to professional bowling vs every week league bowling.
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As I have stated previously...my 'personal' opinion is based on scientific data as well as testing...I do not base on, as ALL of you have, thru marketing or otherwise preconceived connotations on what a bowling balls does or is going to do thru your eyes and your ball motion. You have a certain comfortable shape in your mind on what you wanna see...
Not a single one of you, I can guarantee, has taken 2 bowling balls that may be compared, drilled them exactly the same and thrown them the same amount of times to do a TRUE comprehensive evaluation and viewed the reactions (assuming you can understand true ball motion) unbiasedly...I'm not trying to sale anyone on one ball over another, I can personally careless...who I am is important to me and the ones I work with...which is as many as I want to...I'm not looking to be in the public eye as others do...I'm happy helping those that I do...so throw the bowling balls you choose and have a good time with the game...but understand there is an expansive difference between what a huge majority bowl on and what the pros bowl on....
+1 And like I already said, if it comes to "opinions" from industry vets vs "opinions" from a league bowler, the industry vet's holds much more weight because it WILL be based on more proven ideas because of the amount of experience. So while you may say "well it's still just an opinion," that's REALLY devaluing the experience of somebody like Rico.
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Exactly, it all comes back to matching up with the product. I'm a Storm/Roto guy, have been for a long time. But i've also thrown pieces from nearly every other company out there and always come back to the Utah brand. I'm also a pro shop operator and while I do push Storm stuff, I realize it's not for everyone and if a customer wants a EBI or Brunswick brand or any other brand for that matter my simple response is "honestly every company makes good stuff these days"
Now back to what the pros are using (stated before on this thread) i'd venture to say that is a guy like Chris Barnes really thought that Storm would give him the ability to win more titles (hence more money) he would jump onto that ship. And on the other hand the free agent guys seem to lean towards the Utah stuff more often than not, and if they're winning/making more money why wouldn't they?
So since you obviously don't know who Rico is . . I won't tell you, but you're missing the point here. He's not talking about league bowlers on a house shot, the original question is why does there seem to be so many Storm staffed pros on tv all the time. Rick Benoit, a world famous coach, maybe the best in the world, has the same opinion as Rico. Storm also has the widest range of ball reactions in their lineup.
Exactly, people having their opinions based on their personal experiences. Unless there is published empirical data establishing a defined difference in reaction, then that's all we are entitled to. But at least have some evidence to go along with your opinions. I've been with 3 different companies. I've drilled countless balls. I have a strong interest in the scientific method so I evaluate my findings and incorporate others and if that means forming another conclusion or retesting, I do.
You say "Storm also has the widest range of ball reactions in their lineup." So what exactly are you basing that on? Number of balls? Have you thrown every companies ball and found a reaction in Storm that other's didn't? I'll tell you when I was a Storm/Roto staffer, there was a tremendous amount of overlap in balls. That's because they reuse the same cover in so many balls. Why do you need 5 different balls with XYZ cover?
Storm makes fantastic equipment. So does everyone else. Find the reaction you like and go practice.
You're missing a huge point here. Chris isn't just picking Columbia because he likes Columbia, he was a Brunswick guy for a long time before Columbia threw a fat stack of cash at him. I'd throw a fishbowl and finish last every week with a smile on my face if I got paid what he does to throw Columbia. He'd have to win about 4 titles and 2 majors a year to make up for it if he left, and THAT is the real deal here. I'm sure it works out for some guys and they get signed by the companies they prefer using, but sponsorship is GUARANTEED MONEY. Entering a tournament every week guarantees you nothing.
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There are certain players that will or do manipulate their games to make said equipment work...the issue is that on certain conditions, they are battling the equipment as much if not more the conditions...how many more titles would or could they win is truly not a viable statement...
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There are certain players that will or do manipulate their games to make said equipment work...the issue is that on certain conditions, they are battling the equipment as much if not more the conditions...how many more titles would or could they win is truly not a viable statement...
I'm not disagreeing with your assessment at all, it was more of a generalized question on why a touring pro wouldn't switch to win more or be more successful. You've been in the trenches (I have not)
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$$$$$$$$$$s tends to win out...there is so very few dollars left in the actual prize fund compared to previous years, any and all players are just trying to survive. It is just not as easy as one would think to throw what they can to win...more involved. Would it suffice a Barnes to throw Storm and win more? Possibly, but certain players home there skills in such a way that certain conditions, due to what the landscape becomes...i.e. how manipulated the condition becomes...might facilitate one type of motion early yet another later in the block. You can say it as simple as their players are better than another staff....hmmmm first of all, compare staffs as well as the actual numbers that compete...they are fairly balanced.
Again, the game evolves...the conditions, the surfaces, the oils and to an extent, the equipment...it has been shown in previous years, when there is a higher volume of conditioner in the fronts, Brunswick dominated...go back to the Vapor Zones & Absolute Infernos...guys such as Amleto & Duke jumping ship to throw and win with those balls...now due to the landscape and varying differences, Storm products are dominating....primarlly due to the landscape, yet PoY was using Brunswick.
If you are bowling on a typical house shot and there is a built in amount of friction side to side (50-1) in comparison to a flatter sport pattern (2.5-1)...if every bowling ball was black with the same amount of surface on them...you would not be able to tell the difference in average to above average players hands...
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So since you obviously don't know who Rico is . . I won't tell you, but you're missing the point here. He's not talking about league bowlers on a house shot, the original question is why does there seem to be so many Storm staffed pros on tv all the time. Rick Benoit, a world famous coach, maybe the best in the world, has the same opinion as Rico. Storm also has the widest range of ball reactions in their lineup.
Exactly, people having their opinions based on their personal experiences. Unless there is published empirical data establishing a defined difference in reaction, then that's all we are entitled to. But at least have some evidence to go along with your opinions. I've been with 3 different companies. I've drilled countless balls. I have a strong interest in the scientific method so I evaluate my findings and incorporate others and if that means forming another conclusion or retesting, I do.
You say "Storm also has the widest range of ball reactions in their lineup." So what exactly are you basing that on? Number of balls? Have you thrown every companies ball and found a reaction in Storm that other's didn't? I'll tell you when I was a Storm/Roto staffer, there was a tremendous amount of overlap in balls. That's because they reuse the same cover in so many balls. Why do you need 5 different balls with XYZ cover?
Storm makes fantastic equipment. So does everyone else. Find the reaction you like and go practice.
You Said:
I'll tell you when I was a Storm/Roto staffer, there was a tremendous amount of overlap in balls. That's because they reuse the same cover in so many balls. Why do you need 5 different balls with XYZ cover?
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Quick question. That overlap that you saw, was that based on THS or sport conditions or both?
I don't have enough experience with that many of Storm's products to know myself.
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So since you obviously don't know who Rico is . . I won't tell you, but you're missing the point here. He's not talking about league bowlers on a house shot, the original question is why does there seem to be so many Storm staffed pros on tv all the time. Rick Benoit, a world famous coach, maybe the best in the world, has the same opinion as Rico. Storm also has the widest range of ball reactions in their lineup.
Exactly, people having their opinions based on their personal experiences. Unless there is published empirical data establishing a defined difference in reaction, then that's all we are entitled to. But at least have some evidence to go along with your opinions. I've been with 3 different companies. I've drilled countless balls. I have a strong interest in the scientific method so I evaluate my findings and incorporate others and if that means forming another conclusion or retesting, I do.
You say "Storm also has the widest range of ball reactions in their lineup." So what exactly are you basing that on? Number of balls? Have you thrown every companies ball and found a reaction in Storm that other's didn't? I'll tell you when I was a Storm/Roto staffer, there was a tremendous amount of overlap in balls. That's because they reuse the same cover in so many balls. Why do you need 5 different balls with XYZ cover?
Storm makes fantastic equipment. So does everyone else. Find the reaction you like and go practice.
You Said:
I'll tell you when I was a Storm/Roto staffer, there was a tremendous amount of overlap in balls. That's because they reuse the same cover in so many balls. Why do you need 5 different balls with XYZ cover?
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Quick question. That overlap that you saw, was that based on THS or sport conditions or both?
I don't have enough experience with that many of Storm's products to know myself.
To me, it would have to be THS, because with the R&D and testing that goes into this stuff, no ball company would purposely or knowingly release balls that overlapped so much . . and on tougher shots, the differences are more easily identified. A house shot makes everything look the same.
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You Said:
I'll tell you when I was a Storm/Roto staffer, there was a tremendous amount of overlap in balls. That's because they reuse the same cover in so many balls. Why do you need 5 different balls with XYZ cover?
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Quick question. That overlap that you saw, was that based on THS or sport conditions or both?
I don't have enough experience with that many of Storm's products to know myself.
Both. Since cover is majority of the reaction, I ended up having too many balls that just were too similar.
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You Said:
I'll tell you when I was a Storm/Roto staffer, there was a tremendous amount of overlap in balls. That's because they reuse the same cover in so many balls. Why do you need 5 different balls with XYZ cover?
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Quick question. That overlap that you saw, was that based on THS or sport conditions or both?
I don't have enough experience with that many of Storm's products to know myself.
Both. Since cover is majority of the reaction, I ended up having too many balls that just were too similar.
Reasonable.
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+1 And like I already said, if it comes to "opinions" from industry vets vs "opinions" from a league bowler, the industry vet's holds much more weight because it WILL be based on more proven ideas because of the amount of experience. So while you may say "well it's still just an opinion," that's REALLY devaluing the experience of somebody like Rico.
I may be a league bowler now, it has been by choice due to my son's number of sporting activities. However, I would say I'm not your ordinary league bowler as I have had some world wide success and I know how to read a ball reaction like I can read Java code.
I respect Rico more than probably anyone on this site. But don't assume that every other poster is just some once a week league bowler. I've chose to remain anonymous for various reasons.
To me, it would have to be THS, because with the R&D and testing that goes into this stuff, no ball company would purposely or knowingly release balls that overlapped so much . . and on tougher shots, the differences are more easily identified. A house shot makes everything look the same.
I'm sure you know this, but the ball companies are in the business to make money. Balls have a very short shelf appeal and everyone thinks the latest is the greatest. Just like in golf. Companies keep producing new clubs even though the old ones work fine and things like size and COR have been maxed out for years.
Anthony Chapman
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Anthony what's up! How the hell are you? Good hearing from you...and honestly you are correct,..in a lot of ways, bowling balls are extremely similar to golf clubs...small shelf life and for the most part...they have advanced as far as they can...
Good hearing from you...hope you're well
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I am doing really well. Just mainly following my son around mostly now and loving every minute of it. I just lurk mainly here but love reading all of your insight.
BTW, I had a response where I "came out" :P and I had smiley faces to you but it never posted because of newer responses. Didn't realize it until I went back through the thread LOL.
I had agreed with you just comparing Brunswick from a few years ago. I actually switched because Brunswick had a much slower response to friction (worked much better on fresh) and it matched my eye better. I had wondered if you were still seeing the same from the newer Brunswick (probably since the Nexus f(P))? Balls like the Aura, Versa-Max, Meanstreak are much cleaner and respond much better to friction than before. I can open up my angles significantly more than I could 2 years ago.
I had also asked your thoughts on how much of the Storm use was due to perceptions from a few years ago. Like with golf balls, everyone uses Titleist because they were making the best balls (i.e Pro V1) and people don't switch even though other companies balls perform similarly. So when someone thinks "long and strong", they think Storm.
I wish there was a separate medium to pick your brain.
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I wish there was a separate medium to pick your brain.
You can use the PM feature here or email him, but then the rest of us may lose out on learning something. :)
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If anyone has questions, etc for me, please feel free to email me or you can also find me on Facebook...I am also collaborating on a book in regards to the mental & physical side of the game of bowling...looking forward to it possibly out this year...
I do apologize to anyone I may have offended with my views or opinions...I know I do get carried away at times...more so because I truly care about this game and the integrity of it...the real game of bowling
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I've thought for years that Brunswick was ahead of every company in terms of coverstock technology. I've disliked their ball motion for years because their covers have been too strong. Now the other companies are catching up and I'm starting to not like the other companies now either. for me the r2s cover has the perfect amount of length and pop for a ths.The cover is just great for medium volumes that most houses use and it gives storm an advantage in that regard. As far as the tour is concerned rico is right it has more to do with $$$$ than their equipment. The players who win would likely win with any company.....
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I think it would be fun and interesting to see the top pros throw other companies and see how they did. I will admit that I am a Storm/Roto backer and would love to see Rash and Barnes use a Defiant Soul or IQ Pearl. Barnes would really benefit, in my opinion, with getting a little more angle entry to the pocket to eliminate all the flat tens he seems to leave.
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I think it would be fun and interesting to see the top pros throw other companies and see how they did. I will admit that I am a Storm/Roto backer and would love to see Rash and Barnes use a Defiant Soul or IQ Pearl. Barnes would really benefit, in my opinion, with getting a little more angle entry to the pocket to eliminate all the flat tens he seems to leave.
I doubt that it would help. The violent eruption creates just as much angle as any storm ball.....Barnes knows the type of reaction he wants to see and he creates it with hand positions. If he wants to create angle he can and would.....
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I think it would be fun and interesting to see the top pros throw other companies and see how they did. I will admit that I am a Storm/Roto backer and would love to see Rash and Barnes use a Defiant Soul or IQ Pearl. Barnes would really benefit, in my opinion, with getting a little more angle entry to the pocket to eliminate all the flat tens he seems to leave.
I doubt that it would help. The violent eruption creates just as much angle as any storm ball.....Barnes knows the type of reaction he wants to see and he creates it with hand positions. If he wants to create angle he can and would.....
Yeah, Barnes is all about controlling the backend. Flat 10s are a lot easier to pick up than big 4s. He makes the tv shows leaving flat 10s instead of splits, but in a 1 game match on tv, it can make it look worse than it really is.
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+1 And like I already said, if it comes to "opinions" from industry vets vs "opinions" from a league bowler, the industry vet's holds much more weight because it WILL be based on more proven ideas because of the amount of experience. So while you may say "well it's still just an opinion," that's REALLY devaluing the experience of somebody like Rico.
I may be a league bowler now, it has been by choice due to my son's number of sporting activities. However, I would say I'm not your ordinary league bowler as I have had some world wide success and I know how to read a ball reaction like I can read Java code.
I respect Rico more than probably anyone on this site. But don't assume that every other poster is just some once a week league bowler. I've chose to remain anonymous for various reasons.
To me, it would have to be THS, because with the R&D and testing that goes into this stuff, no ball company would purposely or knowingly release balls that overlapped so much . . and on tougher shots, the differences are more easily identified. A house shot makes everything look the same.
I'm sure you know this, but the ball companies are in the business to make money. Balls have a very short shelf appeal and everyone thinks the latest is the greatest. Just like in golf. Companies keep producing new clubs even though the old ones work fine and things like size and COR have been maxed out for years.
Anthony Chapman
Good points. I especially like your last point. I'll see several balls coming out now that make me think, "wow, they already made this ball like 4 years ago." My angle on Storm is a little different, for me, it's the different shapes they present. They have balls that have Brunswick type reaction, balls with Hammer type reaction, etc. No other company seems to have such diversity as far as that goes. Maybe they still don't match up for certain people, and I don't use Storm and haven't thrown one in years, but for me as a pro shop operator, it seems to be easier to match a brand loyalist up if they prefer Storm than to match up any other loyalist with a ball from their brand of choice without giving them something that's basically what they already have.
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Do any of you think that Walter Ray matches up well with Brunswick?
It is quite obvious that some of the opinions stated are more trustworthy than others. JustRico, can you explain what you mean by "reaction to friction" and what you see in Storm's reaction that gives it its present edge?
Also, Backtobasics, what is your thought about storms current Pequipment, compared to its older equipment? How much of storms present use is a result of the quality and superiority of its older equipment, as opposed to the comparative characteristics of its newer equipment? You can define where you draw the line between "old and new."
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Do any of you think that Walter Ray matches up well with Brunswick?
It is quite obvious that some of the opinions stated are more trustworthy than others. JustRico, can you explain what you mean by "reaction to friction" and what you see in Storm's reaction that gives it its present edge?
Also, Backtobasics, what is your thought about storms current Pequipment, compared to its older equipment? How much of storms present use is a result of the quality and superiority of its older equipment, as opposed to the comparative characteristics of its newer equipment? You can define where you draw the line between "old and new."
I don't think its about matching up to the equipment with Walter anymore. I just don't think he matches up to the conditions. Most tournaments are won by people hooking it. The pba wants its poster child two handers to win......if they put out shots where getting straighter plays again Walter would be just fine no matter what company he threw. Its not about getting 9/ anymore which Walter is the best at. Its about getting 6 baggers.....
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It's not so much about 'hooking' it, it's more about the ball coming in at the right angle, plus the higher rev/higher speed create a stronger angle of miss area to carry...force + velocity = dynamics
As far as react to friction...it's how bowling balls respond to friction...some covers respond slower & longer than others...it has to do with less volumes in the front and storing energy longer thus responding faster/quicker to the friction to create better angles when the condition becomes diamond shaped....the fronts start to go at an angle - right handers break the fronts right to left, thru the lay down area, the mids hold the volume up longer and then the back ends tend to create a right to left angle...if a ball clears the front easier/cleaner, when they get to the down lane friction, the ball tends to still respond due to more energy
Now this also is based on speed, rotation and force applied to the balls, but some players with a slower response cover having the ball bleed energy earlier, will see a 2-8-10 big four reaction where the later, faster/quicker response cover be a 2 pin, 4 pin or 10 pin at worse...
And it also depends on what looks right to your eye...
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I use all ROTO GRIP at this time. Since I started using R/G which has been for about 2 years now, my game has improved along with more honor scores. Now allot has to do with having a great ball driller to match up your game with what ball you are choosing. I have both at this time. I do believe that the way R/G balls roll and hit are like none other. I also used to use Columbia, Track,Ebonite and Hammer. Now I am not saying they are bad! I am saying that I am having great success with R/G at this time. So why change anything. Again, IMO its a combo of matching up with a company's product and having someone who knows how to get you the correct layout with the correct ball for the ball to work properly for the lane condition you are playing. For now ROTO GRIP rules!
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That makes a lot of sense. (great visual)
It's not so much about 'hooking' it, it's more about the ball coming in at the right angle, plus the higher rev/higher speed create a stronger angle of miss area to carry...force + velocity = dynamics
As far as react to friction...it's how bowling balls respond to friction...some covers respond slower & longer than others...it has to do with less volumes in the front and storing energy longer thus responding faster/quicker to the friction to create better angles when the condition becomes diamond shaped....the fronts start to go at an angle - right handers break the fronts right to left, thru the lay down area, the mids hold the volume up longer and then the back ends tend to create a right to left angle...if a ball clears the front easier/cleaner, when they get to the down lane friction, the ball tends to still respond due to more energy
Now this also is based on speed, rotation and force applied to the balls, but some players with a slower response cover having the ball bleed energy earlier, will see a 2-8-10 big four reaction where the later, faster/quicker response cover be a 2 pin, 4 pin or 10 pin at worse...
And it also depends on what looks right to your eye...
It's not so much about 'hooking' it, it's more about the ball coming in at the right angle, plus the higher rev/higher speed create a stronger angle of miss area to carry...force + velocity = dynamics
As far as react to friction...it's how bowling balls respond to friction...some covers respond slower & longer than others...it has to do with less volumes in the front and storing energy longer thus responding faster/quicker to the friction to create better angles when the condition becomes diamond shaped....the fronts start to go at an angle - right handers break the fronts right to left, thru the lay down area, the mids hold the volume up longer and then the back ends tend to create a right to left angle...if a ball clears the front easier/cleaner, when they get to the down lane friction, the ball tends to still respond due to more energy
Now this also is based on speed, rotation and force applied to the balls, but some players with a slower response cover having the ball bleed energy earlier, will see a 2-8-10 big four reaction where the later, faster/quicker response cover be a 2 pin, 4 pin or 10 pin at worse...
And it also depends on what looks right to your eye...
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Yeah I love reading what rico has to say...theres a few EXTREMELY knowledgeable posters on this site...hes one of em!