Post by: J_w73 on March 04, 2009, 05:08:03 AM
I was in a similar situation when a guy threw a 300 and when his ball struck he fell to his knees and slammed his elbows/arms onto the approach in celebration.. his elbows where not over the line but his hands/wrists were definately over the line but from my angle I could not tell if they touched the approach...since I wasn't completely positive they touched the approach I didn't bring it up..
If I did see them hit the approach I'm not sure what I would have done. That would be the ultimate D*ck move to take away someones 300 but a rule is a rule.. I think I would have said something.
What would you do??
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: Carlos Colon on March 04, 2009, 01:13:32 PM
Post by: JessN16 on March 04, 2009, 01:14:30 PM
As to whether it would be a foul even if he did, I'll have to look at the rule book to see when the frame is technically over. Is it over once the ball has gone off the back of the lane and is now a "dead ball?" If it is, that might mean it wasn't a foul after all (similar to me throwing a shot, waiting 2 minutes, then walking back up to the foul line and stepping on it), but then again, most intentional fouls are committed after someone sees their result. So I don't know.
Either way, in that situation, I'm not saying a word other than "congratulations."
Jess
Post by: J_w73 on March 04, 2009, 01:19:05 PM
I believe the the USBC book says something about it being "live"(my word not USBC) until the next bowler bowls.. in the case of the anchor bowler during the last game I do not know what the cut off would be.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Edited on 3/4/2009 2:22 PM
Edited on 3/4/2009 2:22 PM
Post by: JessN16 on March 04, 2009, 01:22:58 PM
quote:
I don't think time is a factor.. I remember in another post someone was talking about a european team tourney where they guy made the last strike they won.. and then his team came up and congratulated and jumped around and the guy stepped on the foul line while celebrating and the other team called a foul..
I believe the the USBC book says something about it being "live"(my word not USBC) until the next bowler bowls.. in the case of the anchor bowler during the last game I do not know what the cut off would be.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
That's the thing. If you're the last bowler on the team throwing the last ball of the game, the game is technically over once your ball goes dead, which is typically defined as the point the ball rolls off the back of the lane and into the pit.
Jess
Post by: pin-chaser on March 04, 2009, 01:26:07 PM
Rule 5a. A foul occurs when a part of the player’s body encroaches on or goes beyond the foul line
and touches any part of the lane, equipment or building during or after a delivery. A ball is in play after a
delivery until the same or another player is on the approach in position to make a succeeding delivery.
I would hate to call this in this situation... but the rule is clear. If the guy had morals he would call it on himself if it happened. This is a tough one for sure.
Post by: J_w73 on March 04, 2009, 01:31:01 PM
says nothing about the end of the game, last bowler, ball going off the deck.
Edited on 3/4/2009 2:32 PM
Post by: J_w73 on March 04, 2009, 01:34:52 PM
quote:
Definition of a Foul
Rule 5a. A foul occurs when a part of the player’s body encroaches on or goes beyond the foul line
and touches any part of the lane, equipment or building during or after a delivery. A ball is in play after a
delivery until the same or another player is on the approach in position to make a succeeding delivery.
I would hate to call this in this situation... but the rule is clear. If the guy had morals he would call it on himself if it happened. This is a tough one for sure.
like I said.. I wasn't for sure if he touched the lane but I'm sure he would have no clue either as he wasn't thinking properly. just excited.. I wouldn't be anywhere near the foul line after my 12th strike..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: no300tj on March 04, 2009, 02:13:48 PM
--------------------
whoever said size doesn't matter never had trouble with a thumbhole
Post by: Kid Jete on March 04, 2009, 02:18:21 PM
quote:
Definition of a Foul
Rule 5a. A foul occurs when a part of the player’s body encroaches on or goes beyond the foul line
and touches any part of the lane, equipment or building during or after a delivery. A ball is in play after a
delivery until the same or another player is on the approach in position to make a succeeding delivery.
I would hate to call this in this situation... but the rule is clear. If the guy had morals he would call it on himself if it happened. This is a tough one for sure.
IF THE GUY HAD MORALS? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
That might be the most ignorant thing I have ever heard on here. What do morals have to do with celebrating a 300? It's not like ANYTHING he did in the process of delivering the shot caused him to foul. I think you're the one that needs to check your morals.
Post by: J_w73 on March 04, 2009, 02:22:36 PM
quote:quote:
Definition of a Foul
Rule 5a. A foul occurs when a part of the player’s body encroaches on or goes beyond the foul line
and touches any part of the lane, equipment or building during or after a delivery. A ball is in play after a
delivery until the same or another player is on the approach in position to make a succeeding delivery.
I would hate to call this in this situation... but the rule is clear. If the guy had morals he would call it on himself if it happened. This is a tough one for sure.
IF THE GUY HAD MORALS? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
That might be the most ignorant thing I have ever heard on here. What do morals have to do with celebrating a 300? It's not like ANYTHING he did in the process of delivering the shot caused him to foul. I think you're the one that needs to check your morals.
If I did what the guy did and then realized in my celebration that I did touch the lane... I would call the foul on myself.. and chalk it up to stupidity and a lesson learned. If the rule says it is a foul then it is a foul..
We have a guy that has been called for a foul atleast 4 times for kicking and stepping on the endcap over the foul line. Everytime he is called on it he doesn't understand why it is a foul because he didn't step on the lane and he intentionally kicks(bad shot) or steps on it(on a good shot..like running it out..) either one is dumb..
Why don't people want to follow the rules. They are there for a reason.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Edited on 3/4/2009 3:27 PM
Post by: Spider Ball Bowler on March 04, 2009, 02:24:10 PM
Shady, oh yea. Give him the 300 and make fun of him later for kissing the lane.--------------------
Ahhh Disco Biscuits!
Post by: livespive on March 04, 2009, 02:29:28 PM
quote:
If his hands/arms were over the line but didn't touch the ground, it's not a foul. If that were a foul, you'd have to stop 5 feet in front of the foul line when you released the ball so that your hand didn't cross the line, vertically extended to the ceiling.
I stop 6' back (Stuck, and fell in the lane once, and said no more.)But back on topic,
If he fell to his knees it might have been his first one, and been overcome with joy. I don't think I would take that from him......
Maybe have the league put it to a vote.
--------------------
Eric T. Spivey, P.E.
Visionary Test Staff Member, and originator of The Livespive 3:15° drill
http://www.visionarybowling.com
http://www.maysbowlingandbilliards.com
Ball Reviews FAQ (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
BR.com search hack: http://www.bowling-info.com/Search.html
Post by: Kid Jete on March 04, 2009, 02:30:27 PM
quote:quote:quote:
Definition of a Foul
Rule 5a. A foul occurs when a part of the player’s body encroaches on or goes beyond the foul line
and touches any part of the lane, equipment or building during or after a delivery. A ball is in play after a
delivery until the same or another player is on the approach in position to make a succeeding delivery.
I would hate to call this in this situation... but the rule is clear. If the guy had morals he would call it on himself if it happened. This is a tough one for sure.
IF THE GUY HAD MORALS? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
That might be the most ignorant thing I have ever heard on here. What do morals have to do with celebrating a 300? It's not like ANYTHING he did in the process of delivering the shot caused him to foul. I think you're the one that needs to check your morals.
If I did what the guy did and then realized in my celebration that I did touch the lane... I would call the foul on myself.. and chalk it up to stupidity and a lesson learned. If the rule says it is a foul then it is a foul..
We have a guy that has been called for a foul atleast 4 times for kicking and stepping on the endcap over the foul line. Everytime he is called on it he doesn't understand why it is a foul because he didn't step on the lane and he intentionally kicks(bad shot) or steps on it(on a good shot..like running it out..) either one is dumb..
Why don't people want to follow the rules. They are there for a reason.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Edited on 3/4/2009 3:27 PM
You're probably the cop that gives out tickets for going a little over the speed limit to get a dying child to the hospital too.
Post by: JessN16 on March 04, 2009, 02:35:22 PM
quote:
yeah.. you beat me to the rule..
says nothing about the end of the game, last bowler, ball going off the deck.
Edited on 3/4/2009 2:32 PM
Actually, it does say something about last bowler. It says "A ball is in play after a delivery until the same or another player is on the approach in position to make a succeeding delivery."
If he's throwing the last ball of the last frame of the last game, there is no other player on the approach to make a succeeding delivery -- because there is no succeeding delivery at all. Ergo, game over, no foul.
Jess
Post by: J_w73 on March 04, 2009, 02:53:50 PM
quote:quote:
yeah.. you beat me to the rule..
says nothing about the end of the game, last bowler, ball going off the deck.
Edited on 3/4/2009 2:32 PM
Actually, it does say something about last bowler. It says "A ball is in play after a delivery until the same or another player is on the approach in position to make a succeeding delivery."
If he's throwing the last ball of the last frame of the last game, there is no other player on the approach to make a succeeding delivery -- because there is no succeeding delivery at all. Ergo, game over, no foul.
Jess
So what if he sticks and is balancing on his toes.. the ball hits the pins.. strikes, goes off the deck.. and then he steps over he line..
No foul cause he got the strike and the ball is off the deck and there is no succeeding bowler to go??
Or maybe since there is no succeeding delivery possilbe then the last player's ball is in play indefinately.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Edited on 3/4/2009 4:09 PM
Edited on 3/4/2009 4:18 PM
Post by: mmcfarland300 on March 04, 2009, 02:58:12 PM
Post by: JessN16 on March 04, 2009, 03:00:41 PM
quote:
Or since there is no succeeding delivery than the last player's ball is in play indefinately.
I will find out for sure to put this to rest.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
I'd be shocked if that's the interpretation. If that were the case, the game would technically go on all night long, through the next day, until some 7-year-old kid got up to make a shot during open play (not to mention that the league secretary would have to hang around to make sure the guy didn't break into the bowling alley at 4:27 a.m. to intentionally foul).
Jess
Post by: Kid Jete on March 04, 2009, 03:00:56 PM
quote:quote:quote:
yeah.. you beat me to the rule..
says nothing about the end of the game, last bowler, ball going off the deck.
Edited on 3/4/2009 2:32 PM
Actually, it does say something about last bowler. It says "A ball is in play after a delivery until the same or another player is on the approach in position to make a succeeding delivery."
If he's throwing the last ball of the last frame of the last game, there is no other player on the approach to make a succeeding delivery -- because there is no succeeding delivery at all. Ergo, game over, no foul.
Jess
Or since there is no succeeding delivery than the last player's ball is in play indefinately.
I will find out for sure to put this to rest.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
LOL... whatever floats your boat man. I think I'll go bowl a 300 tonight in league and before we start bowling next week I'll do a belly flop over the foul line for the 290. Seriously try to be a little more rational here.
Post by: J_w73 on March 04, 2009, 03:11:31 PM
so what response do you have about the sticking and not crossing until after the ball struck.. foul or no foul?
you may not have read that part as I was editing.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Edited on 3/4/2009 4:12 PM
Post by: J_w73 on March 04, 2009, 03:16:55 PM
but it would be subjective. If it was obvious that the bowler was in control and did not touch the lane as a result of his delivery then it wouldn't be a foul. The USBC can't have a rule for every situation.
all of these things were said as an answer.
so basically the USBC left it open to interpretation.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: nospareball on March 04, 2009, 03:46:16 PM
--------------------
-Clint
Post by: J_w73 on March 04, 2009, 04:01:51 PM
quote:
Guy throws a 300, turns around, raises his hands in victory, then clutches his chest and sprawls out on the lane unconscious. Is that a foul?
--------------------
-Clint
sucks ... but yes.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: JessN16 on March 04, 2009, 04:09:28 PM
1) After I check to see if the guy is OK, I'm going to walk straight over to the computer console...
2) Push "change score," "first ball," "X"...
3) Congratulate him on his 300 and dare anyone to say otherwise.
There are rules, and then there is legalism. And there's a difference between the two. People who don't understand that difference usually get it explained to them at some point by someone while they're trying to be One-Bullet Barney.
Not making accusations, I'm just sayin'.
Jess
Post by: mmcfarland300 on March 04, 2009, 04:26:53 PM
Post by: GutterByArrows on March 04, 2009, 04:27:16 PM
quote:
what you are saying is being irrational..?
so what response do you have about the sticking and not crossing until after the ball struck.. foul or no foul?
you may not have read that part as I was editing.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Here's my situation...
J_w73 is bowling in his local men's league and after stringing the front 11, buries the pocket for the 12th strike. In celebration I run up to him on the approach and tackle him across the foul line "accidentally". The honest man he is, he of course calls his own foul because as he said earlier, a rule is a rule, right?
Not trying to be irrational or anything, this is a totally viable situation.
Post by: J_w73 on March 04, 2009, 04:29:36 PM
there are a million "what if" scenarios
It is still a foul regardless. I guess I'm the d*ck.
I don't know why that is so hard for people to understand.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: J_w73 on March 04, 2009, 04:31:14 PM
quote:
Anyone know how to submit a question to USBC for clarification? Just a thought.
Just called them.. I posted their response..
A response in writing might be a little more precise though.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Edited on 3/4/2009 5:32 PM
Post by: J_w73 on March 04, 2009, 04:37:25 PM
quote:quote:
what you are saying is being irrational..?
so what response do you have about the sticking and not crossing until after the ball struck.. foul or no foul?
you may not have read that part as I was editing.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Here's my situation...
J_w73 is bowling in his local men's league and after stringing the front 11, buries the pocket for the 12th strike. In celebration I run up to him on the approach and tackle him across the foul line "accidentally". The honest man he is, he of course calls his own foul because as he said earlier, a rule is a rule, right?
Not trying to be irrational or anything, this is a totally viable situation.
That is a good one... and that is why the rule book needs to be more clear about certain situations. Like.. "person goes over the line on their own accord" "or once ball is in the pit the turn is over"
I just don't think the rules should be ambiguous and alot of the USBC rules are left to interpretation.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: JessN16 on March 04, 2009, 04:41:01 PM
quote:quote:
Anyone know how to submit a question to USBC for clarification? Just a thought.
Just called them.. I posted their response..
A response in writing might be a little more precise though.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Edited on 3/4/2009 5:32 PM
Here's what you just wrote that the USBC said:
"USBC says there is no time limit. It would be a foul. A bowler over the foul line for any reason after a delivery is usually a foul unless they get permission to retrieve something.
but it would be subjective. If it was obvious that the bowler was in control and did not touch the lane as a result of his delivery then it wouldn't be a foul. The USBC can't have a rule for every situation."
You've answered your own question -- not a foul. And if you did want to "be a d*ck" even after knowing this, then you would be overruled.
Jess
Post by: J_w73 on March 04, 2009, 04:48:31 PM
He also said that if he immediately went down and touched the lane it was a foul.. if he went back to the sette area and then went back up on the lane and for some reason stepped on the fould line then it probably wouldn't be.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: J_w73 on March 04, 2009, 04:51:12 PM
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: J_w73 on March 04, 2009, 04:59:57 PM
A foul is a foul. I once saw somebody run out the 12th strike and fall over the above-ground ball return 2 lanes to his left and fell onto that lane. 290
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Edited on 3/4/2009 6:11 PM
Post by: JohnP on March 04, 2009, 09:23:03 PM
Post by: icefiction on March 04, 2009, 09:33:54 PM
--------------------
Post by: J_w73 on March 04, 2009, 10:21:30 PM
quote:
i know at college tourneys we go by the rule that once that bowler steps off the back of the approach after the shot is thrown its over and he can do what ever he wants.
--------------------
sounds acceptable.. but before that any touch over the line is a foul
that would be a perfect addition to the USBC rule.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: J_w73 on March 05, 2009, 03:46:04 PM
they would not make a ruling though.
question:
The anchor bowler in the 3rd game of a 3 game league set releases his 12th shot for an attempt at a 300 game. The bowler is behind the foul line and in control of his body until the ball hits the pins. Upon realization that he strikes and bowled a 300 game the bowler collapses to his knees in celebration and slams his hands down on the approach and across the foul line.
What is the ruling? Is this a foul?
Would there be a different ruling if this happened to the first bowler? I ask in case there is a time limit or a point at which the game ends that may negate any fouls from crossing the line.
Response:
According to Rule 5a, a foul is committed when any part of a
bowler’s
body encroaches on or goes beyond the foul line and touches any part
of
the lane, equipment or building after executing a legal delivery.
We cannot make a ruling in this situation because we did not see it
and
we have only one persons viewpoint as to what happened.
When we have an apparent foul, it is fairly simple call to make.
However, when it is not clear as to whether or not a person actually
fouled, we do an investigation into the matter.
We request the league to conduct a board meeting to gather information
and make a decision.
We then ask for the board meeting minutes along with comments from the
league officers.
Also, any member of the league including the bowler involved can
provide comments and relative information.
In some situations, we even ask the center for their comments if the
challenge involves the operation of the foul detecting devices.
QUESTION:::
bring this to a hypothetical situation then....
If it is positive that the person put his hands over the line and
touched the lane..
if they touched the lane past the foul line EVEN IN CELEBRATION before
a succeeding delivery.. then it is a foul?? ..
It would also be a foul if there wasnt a possible succeeding delivery
after him??
Response:
"I cannot say yes it was a foul or no it was not a foul because I did not
see it happen.
In all my years of bowling and working for ABC and now USBC, I have
never hear of this happening.
If this would actually happen, it would be a judgement call by the
league officials or league board based on eye witness testimony."
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: cheech on March 05, 2009, 06:45:04 PM
--------------------
HG:300x2(SR300 both)
HS:792(SR300)
2004 NYSPHSAA team champions
2007 NYSPHSAA individual high game(300) and series(1411-6 games)
arsenal: sauce rival arch rival dead flush blue vibe scout jazz SR300 plastic
sacred heart university bowling, frosh.
greatest accomplishment:shooting 603 and not shooting one 200 game(130,173,300)...lol
p.s. go leftys
Post by: tc300 on March 05, 2009, 07:33:50 PM
oh... hes one of my dads bowling buddys and friend, how nice
Post by: J_w73 on March 06, 2009, 10:36:09 AM
quote:
Totally agree with kidjete here, there's something wrong with your head j_w73. By your logic, a foul could be committed 15 minutes after the set ends. No foul can be committed between games, because there is no play going on at the time. Last I looked, a game was defined as being completed after the fill ball is delivered by the final bowler on a team, and said ball exists the playing surface and enters the pit.
The game was over, no foul was committed, and you are a scumbag for even asking this question. The man shot 300, and from the way it sounds, it was his first. If you're looking for any possible way to cheat another bowler out of an honor score, you need to take your ball and go home. Go cry somewhere else, tool.
you don't know me.. and I'm not a scumbag.
So if it was the lead off bowler is it the same scenario in your eyes??
I am just bringing up the point to find out what the rule is. Everyone can say he deserves the 300 all they want but if the rule is that it is a foul then it is a foul. Don't get mad at me that the USBC leaves it open to interpretation with their ambiguous rule.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: J_w73 on March 06, 2009, 10:38:44 AM
quote:
this F'n sh t has happend to me!!!!!!! afetr last ball was flush in jumped with joy and a buddy came run'n to high 5 me... hes 6'5 300lbs, knocked me back a lil and stepped on the foul line... the d$ckhed league sec. took protested and took my 300 game away... :~<
oh... hes one of my dads bowling buddys and friend, how nice
sorry about that.. that sucks..
but thank you..
you answered the question for everyone here.
FOUL..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: Monster Pike on March 06, 2009, 11:28:00 AM
--------------------
"The last time I saw a mouth like that, it had a hook in it." Rodney Dangerfield
Post by: J_w73 on March 06, 2009, 11:40:11 AM
quote:
Did the foul light come on? If not, prove the person fouled.... No foul.
--------------------
"The last time I saw a mouth like that, it had a hook in it." Rodney Dangerfield
lights or buzzers do not have to go off for a foul.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: 9andaWiggle on March 06, 2009, 11:44:57 AM
quote:
Why don't people want to follow the rules. They are there for a reason.
Why is there always some killjoy who has to nit-pick everything to the letter and not have the common sense to see the "spirit of the rule"? Now, the guy kicking the end caps is different, I'd call the foul on that just to keep him from tearing the place up. But to call a foul (or even think about it) on somebody who drops to their knees in celebration of a momentous achievement and accidentally crosses the line by so little as a hair, when it's clear the delivery was solid and all the pins are down, is really a low class, scumbag thing to do. I'd say anyone who would call foul in that situation is not a gentleman and is an all around poor sport.
There are times to stick to the rules. However, this is one of those times to think about the true intent of the rule, grant a little leniency, and show a little class mixed with sportsmanship. Just shake the man's hand and say "Nice game".
--------------------
9~
Internet Tough Guy
Cyberspace Sheep Lover
Post by: J_w73 on March 06, 2009, 11:51:25 AM
quote:quote:
Why don't people want to follow the rules. They are there for a reason.
Why is there always some killjoy who has to nit-pick everything to the letter and not have the common sense to see the "spirit of the rule"? Now, the guy kicking the end caps is different, I'd call the foul on that just to keep him from tearing the place up. But to call a foul (or even think about it) on somebody who drops to their knees in celebration of a momentous achievement and accidentally crosses the line by so little as a hair, when it's clear the delivery was solid and all the pins are down, is really a low class, scumbag thing to do. I'd say anyone who would call foul in that situation is not a gentleman and is an all around poor sport.
There are times to stick to the rules. However, this is one of those times to think about the true intent of the rule, grant a little leniency, and show a little class mixed with sportsmanship. Just shake the man's hand and say "Nice game".
--------------------
9~
Internet Tough Guy
Cyberspace Sheep Lover
I think I understand now..
anger - foul
celebration - no foul
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: demo40 on March 06, 2009, 11:51:59 AM
anymore don't even turn on the foul
lights. It seems to me that too many
people on here care more about the
rules than going out and having fun
bowling. I for one and glad that I
do not bowl with anyone that so much
about the rules or how well they are
bowling, that they cannot have a good
time. I would like to see some of you
bowl where I do. You would here people
on one end of the house yelling and
making fun on someone on another team
at the other end of the house 8 lanes
away.
Post by: JessN16 on March 06, 2009, 11:54:32 AM
quote:
sorry about that.. that sucks..
but thank you..
you answered the question for everyone here.
FOUL..
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
No, he did NOT answer it for everyone here.
You did yesterday when you posted the USBC's response saying the situation depended on many factors and there was nothing in the rulebook one way or the other, specifically.
If that had been me and the league secretary had done that, I would have called a league meeting and straightened things out in that meeting with all the officers. The league secretary is but one officer and he can't act unilaterally on such matters without the other officers' consent, perhaps even the association's consent.
Jess
Post by: 9andaWiggle on March 06, 2009, 12:12:27 PM
quote:
I think I understand now..
anger - foul
celebration - no foul
If he's tearing the place up, kicking the ball returns, foul lights, punching the telescoring monitors, pulling the .45's out of his holsters and blasting holes in the ceiling or what not, then sure. But I've never seen anyone celebrate a momentous achievement in bowling that way.
I guess I don't understand what would make you feel compelled to call a foul in that situation? Are you really that bitter with life that you would actually do this to purposely kick someone in the nuts and strip away their achievement/happiness over something so trivial? If it's someone that has done the same to you in the past, that's different. I understand that - what goes around comes around. But if it's just a fellow bowler enjoying a great personal achievement, WHY?
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9~
Internet Tough Guy
Cyberspace Sheep Lover
Post by: J_w73 on March 06, 2009, 12:15:08 PM
quote:quote:
sorry about that.. that sucks..
but thank you..
you answered the question for everyone here.
FOUL..
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
No, he did NOT answer it for everyone here.
You did yesterday when you posted the USBC's response saying the situation depended on many factors and there was nothing in the rulebook one way or the other, specifically.
If that had been me and the league secretary had done that, I would have called a league meeting and straightened things out in that meeting with all the officers. The league secretary is but one officer and he can't act unilaterally on such matters without the other officers' consent, perhaps even the association's consent.
Jess
I agree.. when he said that the guy protested I was assuming he went through all of the necessary chains with the association and the USBC and the final ruling was that he fouled. I guess I shouldn't have assumed that.
I would like to hear from him who made or how the final ruling came about.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: Buzzhead on March 06, 2009, 12:21:59 PM
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FAILURE IS FEEDBACK. AND FEEDBACK IS THE BREAKFAST OF CHAMPIONS THAT GOT DIGESTED!
Ten pin?????? Where?? I throw a BUZZSAW there is NUTTIN left on the deck...
Proud MEMBER of the FOS!!
Member of the FOS, if there happens to be a 9 pin standing just toss a saw and cut it down~~!
Post by: J_w73 on March 06, 2009, 12:22:10 PM
quote:quote:
I think I understand now..
anger - foul
celebration - no foul
If he's tearing the place up, kicking the ball returns, foul lights, punching the telescoring monitors, pulling the .45's out of his holsters and blasting holes in the ceiling or what not, then sure. But I've never seen anyone celebrate a momentous achievement in bowling that way.
I guess I don't understand what would make you feel compelled to call a foul in that situation? Are you really that bitter with life that you would actually do this to purposely kick someone in the nuts and strip away their achievement/happiness over something so trivial? If it's someone that has done the same to you in the past, that's different. I understand that - what goes around comes around. But if it's just a fellow bowler enjoying a great personal achievement, WHY?
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9~
Internet Tough Guy
Cyberspace Sheep Lover
so if the guy is a d*ck then it should be called on him..?
I don't like basing things on if the guy had it coming to him..
this guy is a nice guy..
and if this nice guy did touch the lane and did foul.. I would probably just go over to him and say congratulations and let him know to stay away from the line next time he celebrates. Would I be wrong in not calling the foul? ... yes.. but I don't think I would want to strip the guys occasion from him.. but there would be an asterisk on it in my eyes.
What you would do or not do is one question.
Whether it is indeed a foul or not is another.
They are two seperate things.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Edited on 3/6/2009 1:25 PM
Edited on 3/6/2009 1:26 PM
Post by: 9andaWiggle on March 06, 2009, 12:36:16 PM
As for the "if the guy is a jerk", well, I'm fickle about that. For a nice guy, no call. Heck, even for a guy I thought was an a-hole, I'd probably let it slide. But if I'd seen the guy nitpick everyone else for stupid crap like that (especially if he had done it to me) I'd call it on that guy. Oh yeah, he's definitely getting a taste of his own medicine!
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9~
Internet Tough Guy
Cyberspace Sheep Lover
Post by: Dan Belcher on March 06, 2009, 12:39:15 PM
Post by: J_w73 on March 06, 2009, 01:00:21 PM
quote:
I have one question, J_w73. Does the intent of the rule mean nothing to you??? The entire purpose of the foul line rule is to keep you from 1) going too close to the pins when delivering the ball, and 2) creating a dangerous situation by going into the oil and possibly falling and hurting yourself and/or the lanes. There's following the rules, and then there's being a dick. For something like this, you're crossing the line (sorry, had to use that pun there) when you call someone for fouling because of something that does NOT affect their delivery of the ball or someone else's delivery of the ball in any way, shape, or form. This is the definition of a non-issue in my opinion, and I can't believe the thought even crossed your mind of calling someone on this. I'll laugh if someone calls you out on some incredibly nit-picky interpretation of the rules and invalidates your next honor score.
I understand what you are saying.. and it has happened to me. I have lost games, points , and league championships because people wanted to be nitpicky and use the RULES in a shady way to make sure they won. Maybe the problem is that the way the rule is allows for ambiguity.
I don't want to bring more "what if" scenarios into this but I think this is valid and would like your opinion.
An anchor bowler that is in control of his body after he gets a 9 count and is mad he left a ringing 10 pin kicks the endcap past the foul line . A foul is called and they lose the game.
Should that be a foul?? I would think in your "spirit of the rule" explanation the answer would be no.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: Dan Belcher on March 06, 2009, 01:05:45 PM
Post by: J_w73 on March 06, 2009, 01:22:08 PM
quote:
I would fit that under the intentional foul part of the rulebook -- he meant to foul, which is a world of difference from somebody barely going over the foul line by accident while celebrating. (And more importantly, I would expect the center to do something about him intentionally damaging their equipment, making him pay for the repairs would be a good deterrent to keep him from doing that again!) You can't accomodate every possible exception in the rulebook, you have to use common sense. Does NOBODY have common sense anymore?
the intentional foul part in the rulebook has to do with fouling so that you gain an advantage. He was not attempting to foul he was just kicking his foot into the top of the endcap... I don't condone kicking or hitting any equipment but he did not kick it hard enough to cause any damage... he more kicked his foot and grazed across the edge and top of it..contact.
it just seems like people want to say it is a foul or not a foul based on whether or not the guy is a nice guy or like my previous post
anger -foul
celebration - no foul
I don't think you can make a difference between the two like that.. either they are both fouls.. or both are not fouls....
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Edited on 3/6/2009 2:23 PM
Edited on 3/6/2009 2:25 PM
Post by: Dan Belcher on March 06, 2009, 01:32:49 PM
quote:And I think you SHOULD be able to interpret situations differently even though it's not expressly written in the rulebook. Are you a computer? Do you lack the ability to make subjective calls? Not everything in sports has to be objective. The flopping call in the NBA is subjective, for example. Did Manu Ginobili really lose his balance because he got hit hard by someone driving to the hoop, or did he intentionally exaggerate it to attempt to draw an offensive foul despite there being just casual contact? You have to use your common sense when interpreting rules. They can't write every possible exception into the rulebook, they expect you to be thoughtful enough to decide for yourself if something applies to the situation or not.
I don't think you can make a difference between the two like that.. either they are both fouls.. or both are not fouls....
Let me put it this way -- if someone slapped the approach after shooting a 300 on TV in the championship match of a PBA event, and his fingers went over the foul line, do you really think the PBA would call it a foul and take the 300 away? I HIGHLY doubt it. (Though I should doubt anybody would really do it because it's a goofy azz way to celebrate!)
Post by: 9andaWiggle on March 06, 2009, 01:37:36 PM
I think more people side with ruling that a foul more as a way to punish bad behavior/poor sportsmanship than anything else. Not many want to strip the "good guy" of an honor score, but more would be willing to take it away from a jerk (again, to punish bad behavior/poor sportsmanship).
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9~
Internet Tough Guy
Cyberspace Sheep Lover
Post by: J_w73 on March 06, 2009, 01:40:37 PM
quote:quote:And I think you SHOULD be able to interpret situations differently even though it's not expressly written in the rulebook. Are you a computer? Do you lack the ability to make subjective calls? Not everything in sports has to be objective. The flopping call in the NBA is subjective, for example. Did Manu Ginobili really lose his balance because he got hit hard by someone driving to the hoop, or did he intentionally exaggerate it to attempt to draw an offensive foul despite there being just casual contact? You have to use your common sense when interpreting rules. They can't write every possible exception into the rulebook, they expect you to be thoughtful enough to decide for yourself if something applies to the situation or not.
I don't think you can make a difference between the two like that.. either they are both fouls.. or both are not fouls....
Let me put it this way -- if someone slapped the approach after shooting a 300 on TV in the championship match of a PBA event, and his fingers went over the foul line, do you really think the PBA would call it a foul and take the 300 away? I HIGHLY doubt it. (Though I should doubt anybody would really do it because it's a goofy azz way to celebrate!)
I would 100% guarantee that they would call a foul and take away the 300.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: Dan Belcher on March 06, 2009, 01:41:23 PM
quote:Really? I think you would be the only person who would even notice his hand went over the line doing it. Nobody else would even notice, much less care!!quote:quote:And I think you SHOULD be able to interpret situations differently even though it's not expressly written in the rulebook. Are you a computer? Do you lack the ability to make subjective calls? Not everything in sports has to be objective. The flopping call in the NBA is subjective, for example. Did Manu Ginobili really lose his balance because he got hit hard by someone driving to the hoop, or did he intentionally exaggerate it to attempt to draw an offensive foul despite there being just casual contact? You have to use your common sense when interpreting rules. They can't write every possible exception into the rulebook, they expect you to be thoughtful enough to decide for yourself if something applies to the situation or not.
I don't think you can make a difference between the two like that.. either they are both fouls.. or both are not fouls....
Let me put it this way -- if someone slapped the approach after shooting a 300 on TV in the championship match of a PBA event, and his fingers went over the foul line, do you really think the PBA would call it a foul and take the 300 away? I HIGHLY doubt it. (Though I should doubt anybody would really do it because it's a goofy azz way to celebrate!)
I would 100% guarantee that they would call a foul and take away the 300.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: J_w73 on March 06, 2009, 01:43:50 PM
quote:
You know, what I like about J_w73's argument is that it does make you think about the anger vs. celebration angle. Both shots are clearly completed, so the foul is not going to affect the outcome of the shot itself. However, the kicking of the foul light could more easily be considered an intentional foul, especially in the case of a 10 pin (since everybody seems to fear missing it and may think sparing a full rack to be easier).
I think more people side with ruling that a foul more as a way to punish bad behavior/poor sportsmanship than anything else. Not many want to strip the "good guy" of an honor score, but more would be willing to take it away from a jerk (again, to punish bad behavior/poor sportsmanship).
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9~
Internet Tough Guy
Cyberspace Sheep Lover
just to say.. this is the last ball.. there will be no spare attempt.. so the intentional foul rule to gain an advantage can not come into play here.
And I will say this really happened and it cost us the game..
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Edited on 3/6/2009 2:45 PM
Post by: Dan Belcher on March 06, 2009, 01:51:08 PM
quote:Making sure I understand right... Someone on your team kicked the foul light and it cost you the game? Wow. If so, either way you deserve to lose simply because that is an amazingly stupid thing to do!! If you're going to be an inconsiderate a-hole and kick stuff, at least be smart enough to get off the approach and kick your own bowling bag or something. You KNOW no good can come from kicking the foul light, that's an egregious error.
just to say.. this is the last ball.. there will be no spare attempt.. so the intentional foul rule to gain an advantage can not come into play here.
And I will say this really happened and it cost us the game..
Post by: J_w73 on March 06, 2009, 01:58:05 PM
quote:quote:Making sure I understand right... Someone on your team kicked the foul light and it cost you the game? Wow. If so, either way you deserve to lose simply because that is an amazingly stupid thing to do!! If you're going to be an inconsiderate a-hole and kick stuff, at least be smart enough to get off the approach and kick your own bowling bag or something. You KNOW no good can come from kicking the foul light, that's an egregious error.
just to say.. this is the last ball.. there will be no spare attempt.. so the intentional foul rule to gain an advantage can not come into play here.
And I will say this really happened and it cost us the game..
yep .. you got it right.. wasn't the light but the top of the cap that houses the light.... beyond the foul line..
and yes.. it was a foul, I can't argue with it. and we lost.. not because it was a stupid thing to do.. but because it was a FOUL..
but was he in control.. yes..
was his ball in the pit and the game over.. yes
was his intention to foul... no
All of the same things as the guy that shot the 300..
so how can the ruling be different?
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: Dan Belcher on March 06, 2009, 02:00:23 PM
Post by: J_w73 on March 17, 2009, 09:55:49 AM
quote:quote:And I think you SHOULD be able to interpret situations differently even though it's not expressly written in the rulebook. Are you a computer? Do you lack the ability to make subjective calls? Not everything in sports has to be objective. The flopping call in the NBA is subjective, for example. Did Manu Ginobili really lose his balance because he got hit hard by someone driving to the hoop, or did he intentionally exaggerate it to attempt to draw an offensive foul despite there being just casual contact? You have to use your common sense when interpreting rules. They can't write every possible exception into the rulebook, they expect you to be thoughtful enough to decide for yourself if something applies to the situation or not.
I don't think you can make a difference between the two like that.. either they are both fouls.. or both are not fouls....
Let me put it this way -- if someone slapped the approach after shooting a 300 on TV in the championship match of a PBA event, and his fingers went over the foul line, do you really think the PBA would call it a foul and take the 300 away? I HIGHLY doubt it. (Though I should doubt anybody would really do it because it's a goofy azz way to celebrate!)
Response from the PBA..
Our rule regarding fouls in competition is the same as the USBC’s. But to clarify, if a bowler does not return to the bowlers area and slap the ground by placing his/her hand over the foul line, it would indeed be scored as a foul in PBA competition.
I hope this answers your question,
Sincerely,
Corey Kistner
Tournament Director, PBA Tours
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: EJ300 on March 17, 2009, 10:06:32 AM
quote:
If a person is going to celebrate, wouldn't he do it after the pins are down for the 300? in that case, the frame would be over, so if at that point he went over the foul line, how could it count? the frame is over. Sorry, just my opinion. if he went over the line before the pins fell then yes, its a foul, otherwise, its a 300.
+1 good point i didnt even think of that lol
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my email: pdwejs@yahoo.com
Bowling Is the best thing in the WORLD!!!!!!!
Post by: J_w73 on March 17, 2009, 11:05:51 AM
quote:
If a person is going to celebrate, wouldn't he do it after the pins are down for the 300? in that case, the frame would be over, so if at that point he went over the foul line, how could it count? the frame is over. Sorry, just my opinion. if he went over the line before the pins fell then yes, its a foul, otherwise, its a 300.
If you read the thread, that is basically what the whole thing is about. And you are wrong. It is still a foul even after the pins fall.
That was the reason for my post of the response from the PBA.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180