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Author Topic: PAP moves on Rico-drilled balls...  (Read 2319 times)

JessN16

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PAP moves on Rico-drilled balls...
« on: December 28, 2008, 10:46:36 AM »
I've got two balls drilled Rico. On both, my PAP moves from 4 over 3/8 up to around 4 over, but with a fairly significant downward vertical component (maybe as much as 1 down). Both are Storm Thunder series balls. What gives?

My PAP also changes on balls drilled with shorter pins drilled closer to the axis (example: Lane #1 Dirty Bomb with pin drilled at what should be 1.5 away from the PAP ... instead, the PAP migrates inward to about 3-3.5 over, and ball track reveals a lot of tilt although I didn't try to tilt it). But it's nothing like the change on Rico gear.

Jess

 

smash8-10split

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Re: PAP moves on Rico-drilled balls...
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2008, 06:49:08 PM »
if it strikes, who cares what your pap is?
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JessN16

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Re: PAP moves on Rico-drilled balls...
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2008, 06:52:43 PM »
Because I'd like to know regardless. I'm curious about the science of it.

Jess

charlest

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Re: PAP moves on Rico-drilled balls...
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2008, 06:56:08 PM »
Might be easiest to PM JustRico about this.
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JustRico

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Re: PAP moves on Rico-drilled balls...
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2008, 06:59:10 PM »
When you check it, are you using oil on the ball? I would suggest, if you're not doing it, to use the tape on your PAP and check it that way.

If it is actually lower, what I would percieve is that with the addition of weight holes, it throw the bow tie higher, which might result in your vertical coming down.

Layouts can minimally affect your PAP, as well as the cores. I wouldn't, other than wanting to know why, let it bother you that much. It is not uncommon. But with the strength of the cores and coverstocks, it has a bigger affect.
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JessN16

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Re: PAP moves on Rico-drilled balls...
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2008, 07:05:00 PM »
quote:
When you check it, are you using oil on the ball? I would suggest, if you're not doing it, to use the tape on your PAP and check it that way.

If it is actually lower, what I would percieve is that with the addition of weight holes, it throw the bow tie higher, which might result in your vertical coming down.

Layouts can minimally affect your PAP, as well as the cores. I wouldn't, other than wanting to know why, let it bother you that much. It is not uncommon. But with the strength of the cores and coverstocks, it has a bigger affect.
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Thanks. I am taping it and the tape backs up the rings. I just didn't bother getting it exact once I saw the change or I'd be able to tell you precisely how down it is. It's probably around a total change of 1 3/8 inches.

Yes, the bowtie moved. This is partly the reason I asked the question out on the board, so others might see this if they fear they'll have a bowtie issue. My bowtie moved VERY close to the middle finger hole ... just a bit closer, and it would be thumping the hole.

Also, I asked because people know I drill my own stuff, so I get a lot of questions from other bowlers. Although I always make it a point to aim them in the direction of a professional driller, I still get the questions.

Note that I am not unhappy with the reactions. I LOVE the reactions from this drill, and it seems a good match to the Thunderstruck Solid and Thunderstruck Pearl, which use fairly simple, but proven cores and have stable coverstocks. Everything that people are supposed to get from a Rico drill, I got.

I got my question answered and maybe others will be helped, too. Thanks!

Jess

bluerrpilot

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Re: PAP moves on Rico-drilled balls...
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2008, 10:04:20 PM »
It might be possible that your confusing a pap change with the flare on the ball and the bowtie. For me, anytime I drill something with the pin below the fingers, it looks like it flares backwards or away from my thumb. In reallity, Its tracking the same but because the bowtie is now in a different spot in relation to the grip, it just looks different. If I use tape to mark my pap, its still in the same location.
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JustRico

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Re: PAP moves on Rico-drilled balls...
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2008, 11:59:48 PM »
The bow tie is created by the relationship of the pin, in height, in regards to the PAP. If you draw a line from the PAP through the pin to the track, this is basically where the bow tie should be, give or take 1/4". Add a weight hole and the bow tie will be affected, by height, in regards to the pin to PAP line. A weight hole placed below the PAP will raise the bow tie. A weight hole added above the PAP, will lower the bow tie. If you place a weight hole on the same line as the pin to PAP, it will not affect the height of the bow tie, but can tighten, creating or allowing for a stronger back-end type reaction, similar to what an asymmetrical core creates.
Weight holes can affect ball reactions, by adjusting flare, in many different ways. Knowing how only enhances overall reaction.
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JessN16

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Re: PAP moves on Rico-drilled balls...
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2008, 01:18:35 AM »
Reason I think this is a PAP change is that, by any measure, the entire oil tracking has changed (and a quick tape check seems to back it up).

There are barely any oil rings present in the thumb-negative quadrant and the NAP appears to be in the finger-negative quadrant. I've had this happen on one other ball before, a 6x4 drilled Dyno-Thane Element Au-79 that had the pin in the track.

It may be we're talking about the same things. What I can say is that on most of my balls, if you put the ball on a table and looked straight down at the label, you would see flare lines going through both negative quadrants, closer to the thumb than the fingers. If you look at these two Rico balls, the first oil line barely appears to touch the thumb-negative quadrant, and appears to come into view in the finger-positive quadrant and disappear somewhere around the midline or just below, into thumb-negative. I know it's not the ball construction, because I've thrown just about every Thunder-series ball Storm has ever made and it's only happening with these two balls.

The bowtie has changed positions (raised), but at the same time, the angle of the oil line has changed from an 11-to-5 angle vs. the label to a 2:30-to-8:30 path. Measuring out the PAP puts me about 3.5 over, which is close to my usual number, but the vertical goes from 3/8 up to about 1 down and perhaps more.

This becomes a mix of things I do and don't understand. I am previously aware of pin placement effect on the bowtie, because back before I had actual lessons from a coach 10 years ago, I used to be about 5 1/2 or even 6 over 0 up and was horribly speed-dominant. There were certain pin-down drillings I could not use, as it would draw the bowtie into an area that would cause me to clip holes. Now that my PAP has moved back to 4 over, I no longer have to shy away from certain drillings.

I'm not complaining, as I love the reaction. I'm just a big how-things-work kinda guy and love learning about what things trigger what outcomes.

Jess

Leonidas

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Re: PAP moves on Rico-drilled balls...
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2008, 06:14:43 PM »
As far as i know PAP is measured to detect the spinning axis of the first track. How anything (not mentioning size or weight of the Ball) can change this? Please explain.
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JustRico

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Re: PAP moves on Rico-drilled balls...
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2008, 06:38:06 PM »
The strength of the core can make the ball alter, as it is being released onto the lane, thus altering a bowler's PAP. It is not uncommon especially the more the loft's the ball. Add onto that the typical inconsistencies of the average bowler and you can have varying PAP's.


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Leonidas

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Re: PAP moves on Rico-drilled balls...
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2008, 06:55:37 PM »
First of all thank you for the fast answer.
quote:
The strength of the core can make the ball alter, as it is being released onto the lane, thus altering a bowler's PAP. It is not uncommon especially the more the loft's the ball.

OK in understand this. In relation to the total inertia of the ball, the core should be very heavy with a very low RG along with a huge bowlers loft. If i am not mistaken the PAP difference will be not a big.

Quote
Add onto that the typical inconsistencies of the average bowler and you can have varying PAP's.[\quote]
For the "the human factor", OK that is totally clear.
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it's almost always the indian and not the arrow
yes and i like this one also
don't go for a strike, go for a sure spare, we need 5 pins to win

JessN16

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Re: PAP moves on Rico-drilled balls...
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2008, 09:30:45 AM »
quote:
Quick question.

Were any of the balls plugged before placing the said layout on them?
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My Thunderstruck Solid was. My Thunderstruck Pearl was not. Both balls shifted the track/PAP similar amounts.

Jess