Post by: FBM357 on October 10, 2004, 04:37:33 PM
What's your relationship like with your driller?
Vernon
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Caring people make a difference!!! All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
Post by: Strike300 on October 11, 2004, 01:02:15 AM
Post by: tenpinspro on October 11, 2004, 07:41:02 AM
Insecurity, lack of knowledge, ego, rudeness, lack of concern, want more?....
Rick
Post by: Doc Hollywood on October 11, 2004, 10:11:57 AM
The ones who tend to improve and stay up with the times are the ones that go to the drilling seminars put on by the ball manufacturers. However sometimes the drillers have that deer in the headlight look. "Did you get what the man was talking about Vern?" I know because I have been to some of those seminars. I remember when the Phantom came out and everybody was thinking "You can drill a ball differently besides over the label?
The profit margins are the greatest for the newbie plastic bowlers where there is minimal effort needed to get a decent profit. Just punch the ball label get tehm shoes and a bag and then ask will that be cash or credit. Those that need more time to lay out something specific takes away the profit margin in some cases.
I remember spending time in the pro shop and educating bowlers about dfferent drilling patterns.
I am sure if someone wanted to educate bowlers they could charge minimally for a class and then let them apply it to the next ball purchase. Or just charge more to spend the time to drill. i.e. simple drill $, Specialized drill $$$
Educate bowlers and you can get them to spend more money.
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Doc
Owner and Inventor of
DOC'S MAGIC BOWLING BALL ELIXIR
For more information click on the link below
http://home.comcast.net/~docsmagic/
or message me at:
http://Doc65@aol.com
Post by: FBM357 on October 11, 2004, 10:20:36 AM
Yeah, you and I discussed this the other day when after I had my Nemesis drilled. Though the ball does exactly what I want (strong continuous controlled arc), the driller failed to completely answer my other questions. I figure the better one understand his/her game & equipment, the more knowledge can be shared between bowler and driller. Like having 2 people discussing the same math problem, even though both may have the correct results, the method may be different
Hmm, guess the search continues.......
V
quote:
shhh...I know but don't tell anybody.
Insecurity, lack of knowledge, ego, rudeness, lack of concern, want more?....
Rick
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Caring people make a difference!!! All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
Post by: MSC2471 on October 11, 2004, 10:32:59 AM
I think many times you will get half answers not necessarily out of secretiveness, but more so out of the lack of knowledge a particular driller may have in that area. There is so much to know and I think some people retain information better than others.
Matt
Post by: Pinbuster on October 11, 2004, 10:59:14 AM
If you are a ¾ roller 80% of them will have a pap within ¾ of an inch of each other. And missing a pin/cg position by less than an inch has little effect on the balls reaction.
If a driller knows you’re a ¾ roller and you tell the reaction you want, he can pick a pin, cg, and mass bias layout that will give you the desired reaction.
Only if you are on the extremes (full roller, spinner) does the PAP much matter.
Should they get your PAP? Being precise has advantages and should be done. But in the example the driller has done multiple balls before for the bowler so I would imagine they have a good idea of their style and has been successful in providing the reaction the customer wanted.
Also when you come in with a ball in hand or determined to by a particular ball you have automatically tied the proshop’s hands. The cover, core, MB, and pin location will dictate a lot of the balls reaction and how you can drill it.
The biggest reason to have specs is to get the desired reaction but I’ve seen the old “paralysis thru analysis†syndrome set it as well.
I saw a guy go around with the pro for over 2 hours on ball he brought in arguing about ½†differences in the position of pins and cg. Either would have worked, the pro was willing to drill any of the combinations, but the guy was nuts and wouldn’t make up his mind(s)).
Post by: FBM357 on October 11, 2004, 11:05:40 AM
Bro, extra 25 minutes is not a problem (I'm use to the drive whenever I go fishing upstate
) so your idea sounds GREAT! I subbed Sat. & Sun. @ White Plains. Didn't do too bad (631 & 652 respectively). I've only bowled there 3 times (all subbing for someone). One thing I noticed, lanes were much different at each ends of the floor.Anyway, after I successfully jacked my own thread
, check your PM's.I'm willing to check it out!
Thanks,
V
quote:
Vernon, where are you getting your stuff drilled. If it's in Westchester, or mahattan, then I probably know the guy.
I've seen the guy in homefield (which for some reason, I remember you saying that you bowl there) do some pretty crazy things (IE, weight hole IN THE TRACK, 1" over from thumb on track side)......
If you want some more reliable servicing, you could go another 25 minutes north up to White Plains, where we have a fairly good shopper (and I'm NOT just saying that because he's my boss). He'll spend hours with you talking about choices if you want.
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FES-As a man who respects himself, I have to break up with you, and there is nothing you can say to change that
Nina-My parents are jerks and I want to get back at them by doing it with you on their bed.
FES (extremely quickly)-Except that.
Edited on 10/11/2004 10:33 AM
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Caring people make a difference!!! All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
Edited on 10/11/2004 11:00 AM
Post by: scotts33 on October 11, 2004, 11:27:14 AM
Scott
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 11, 2004, 11:33:04 AM
And well they should! It is a horrible business in general.
Despite effort and interest one will often hardly make enough to eat.
Also like noted above too much knowledge for a lot of people is damaging.
I've actually bowled my best when I just focused on bowling with 3 balls.
Knowing a hall of fame bowler let's one also see that many of them also only want to be the indian, not the arrow!
Also who needs to waste two hours where a guy who's got a little knowledge wants to waste 2 hours of your time on a $30 dollar drilling!
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: T-GOD on October 11, 2004, 12:24:11 PM
So, if you go to a professional/competent ball driller, then it's up to him to decide how your ball gets drilled. I take full responsibility for my actions. Meaning if I decide to give you a certain layout and it doesn't work, I'll make it right on my dime.
As a bowler, the more you think you know/learn about drilling, weights/balancing, and layouts, most of the time the worse you're gonna be as a bowler..!! Because, your mind will be thinking too much about what you think should work ect..., instead of just throwing the ball and making it/letting it work.
You'll have a better peace of mind to just let your driller hand you a ball that gives you the reaction you're looking for, then trying to decide for yourself what you think will work.
You're better off in the long run not knowing all this technical stuff. The best bowlers in the world(PBA Players) let ball reps make the decision on new balls and layouts for them, for the reason I just mentioned.
Walter Ray is a prime example, but it's basically the same for the others too.
Why should a pro shop teach you all the knowledge he has worked for..? So you can come in and tell him how to drill/layout your ball..? Now if you want to learn all this stuff, go learn it on your own and open up your own pro shop. =:^D
Edited on 10/11/2004 12:28 PM
Post by: DP3 on October 11, 2004, 12:30:13 PM
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-DP3
Post by: scotts33 on October 11, 2004, 12:48:34 PM
quote:
. I take full responsibility for my actions. Meaning if I decide to give you a certain layout and it doesn't work, I'll make it right on my dime.
T-God--I'd say your stance is in the minority. Does this mean if your customer doesn't get the dersired ball reaction that you will take back the ball you layed out and drilled and set him up with a new ball? Just wondering.
Your points are valid.
Scott
Post by: JohnP on October 11, 2004, 01:12:48 PM
quote:
The profit margins are the greatest for the newbie plastic bowlers where there is minimal effort needed to get a decent profit. Just punch the ball label get tehm shoes and a bag and then ask will that be cash or credit. Those that need more time to lay out something specific takes away the profit margin in some cases.
I can't speak for all pro shops, but we make very little on plastic balls. First, to be competitive with KMart, etc, there is not much mark up on these balls. We price them in the $50 - 60 range with drilling included. They are almost always drilled conventionally, so no extra profit from slugs and grips. And I spend almost as much time with these bowlers as I do with the ones that are buying $200 equipment, making sure they get a good fit and are completely satisfied. Why? We consider these bowlers our future. Hopefully, in a year or two they'll be ready to move up to better equipment and will remember how they were treated. And in the interim they'll spend $$$ on lineage and leagues.
On the original question. I'd say not 5% of my customers, even the very best bowlers, even know what a PAP is. And the 5% that do are because I've told them. I've taken a two day class on pro shop work, and have spent a LOT of time here and on other web sites, trying to learn more about what affects ball reaction. You asked your driller questions that he (and this most certainly applies to me) is not sure about. And that only marginally, if at all, affect ball layouts. Now, he doesn't want to appear to lack knowledge, so he gives a "half" answer. You may very well know more about the subject than he does! This doesn't affect his ability to give you a good fit and layout. -- JohnP
Post by: Debina on October 11, 2004, 01:18:24 PM
You start bowling knowing nothing about the sport. For two years you give all your business to one pro shop guy, and we're not talking one or two balls, but literally thousands of dollars of business. (New bowlers often have more money than sense.)
You go to Reno to compete in a tournament, and you decide to buy a ball or two there. The guy who drills the ball watches you throw and suggests you shorten your span and change your thumb pitch from 1/8th reverse and 1/8th lateral to 0/0. You figure you'll give it a try. Amazingly, the new equipment feels better, comes off your hand cleaner, rolls smoother and helps you jump your average 20 pins almost immediately. The guy in Reno also gives you your new spec sheet.
You go home and a few month later, after giving this new equipment a true test, you decide you want a new ball. You go to original pro shop guy and buy the ball you want. You give him the new spec sheet and also ask him to measure your stuff you had drilled in Reno. You ask him to drill the new ball the same way. He balks and says you need a stretched span. You insist that you want it drilled by the new spec sheet, so he grudgingly agrees to do it your way. You throw the new ball for a few weeks, and it just doesn't feel right, so you stow it in the bottom of your bag.
Later, you're open bowling in a different house and the pro shop is open. On a whim, you go in and ask the guy to check the stuff you like throwing against the last ball you had drilled by local pro guy. The analysis is that the spans are the same, but the thumb in the last ball has been drilled with 1/8th reverse and 1/8th lateral instead of 0/0.
Did original pro shop guy really have the right to do it "his way" when you asked him to drill off the new spec sheet? At this point are you shopping for a new local driller? Or do you wait for that once-a-year trip to Reno and get all of your equipment from the guy there?
Post by: BAPS_Eric on October 11, 2004, 01:24:32 PM
.....Even if a customer's spec sheet is different that they may bring into me than the one I have.....I will drill it up for them they way they want......I mean comfort is the BIGGEST THING IN BOWLING!!!....Other than rolling a 900 that is .....
Post by: FBM357 on October 11, 2004, 01:48:20 PM
quote:
On the original question. I'd say not 5% of my customers, even the very best bowlers, even know what a PAP is. And the 5% that do are because I've told them. I've taken a two day class on pro shop work, and have spent a LOT of time here and on other web sites, trying to learn more about what affects ball reaction. You asked your driller questions that he (and this most certainly applies to me) is not sure about. And that only marginally, if at all, affect ball layouts. Now, he doesn't want to appear to lack knowledge, so he gives a "half" answer. You may very well know more about the subject than he does! This doesn't affect his ability to give you a good fit and layout.
I'm not in disagreement with what you're saying. Neither am I questioning the ability to properly provide a good fit. I ask about "me" because a) as a above avg. bowler, I take a strong interest in MY game; b) I've a right because I pay; c) understanding. What good is someone who performs a service for you yet can't answer a question you may have? That's all I'm saying. Not testing/challenging your knowledge but heck, I would think the driller would take pride in what he/she does.
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Caring people make a difference!!! All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
Post by: T-GOD on October 11, 2004, 01:54:59 PM
Post by: scotts33 on October 11, 2004, 01:57:17 PM
Scott
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 11, 2004, 01:58:42 PM
IF you trust him you don't need to get into his shorts.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS if you don't, get a new one that you do trust. Also I did bowl my best when I let my guy just drill for me. Do I now probably know as much as he does? Probably but also
I now know in certain areas I understand where he made mistakes(mostly in bevel) that made a couple of balls not react as great as they could of. But I still respect his ability and his knowledge.
PPS To go a little further sometimes I'll bring a ball to him and just say.
"Using these span specs just drill any pattern you want. My goal with this ball is....." "He may even ask me for a picture of the core and the specs"
Often the result is very pleasing. In addition I do a bunch of my own stuff!
Post by: Pinbuster on October 11, 2004, 02:13:27 PM
We would tweak the cover and do grip adjustments (bevel, hole size, etc) but wouldn’t replace the ball.
It was amazing how many times grandpa with his 12 mph ball speed wanted a 16lb swamp monster because someone else was killing them with one and his ball would roll out at the arrows. You explain your position and if they decide to go against you then it is on them.
Post by: T-GOD on October 11, 2004, 02:20:54 PM
But like you stated, I wash my hands of any free gratis repairs if the ball/drilling doesn't do what the customer wants/expected it to do.
My decisions/recommendations are guaranteed, not the customers..!! =:^D
Post by: JohnP on October 11, 2004, 04:45:27 PM
Post by: T-GOD on October 11, 2004, 05:15:29 PM
Post by: tenpinspro on October 11, 2004, 05:29:38 PM
I'm with John P, take the ball back and have him show you the pitches in front of you. You paid for this and you should have the right to see it done in front of you. If they are incorrect like the other shop stated, have him plug and redrill it. I personally show pitches and span to any of my customers who ask and even for some who don't ask. Then like John says, I wouldn't go back there.
Bones & Pinbuster, you guys make valid points but I thought we we're in agreement from various discussions that the modern bowler is no longer as versatile(as we had to be) and have become one-dimensional in the game. If this is true, then wouldn't specific patterns be an asset to that person? Just want your thoughts on that...
We're also bringing up exceptional bowlers, Walter Ray and so on. I was even told a few years back that Mike Aulby never knew his pap. For bowlers of the higher skill level, then I'd definitely agree. I'm thinking more about the typical house guy who has the right match up in his hands to let him average 200+ and be happy.
PS. Plastics are also my lowest profit margin balls, maybe $25-$30 for jr discounts.
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Rick Leong
Ten Pins Pro Shop
Track Intl. - Amateur/Pro Shop Staff
Vise Inserts Staff
Post by: Pinbuster on October 11, 2004, 06:00:58 PM
I use different patterns combined with different ball surface, cores to gain a desired roll on a specific condition. I have 3 of these balls.
But I also have a couple of patterns that I use for most of my “normal†league conditions. One is skid/snap and the other is more of an arc. I have 4 of these in my arsenal.
But if someone comes and ask for a specific hook shape/ball reaction then there are generally only a couple of options on a given ball to give that reaction. If you don’t know the bowlers game, looking at an existing ball for track information and a few simple questions you can generally determine which pattern should work best.
But the lanes I bowl on you couldn’t use the same ball all night on the same line simply by changing drills. You would have to adjust your feet and line some.
I’m not really sure that even to going to urethane would work very well as these dry out enough that urethane jumps early in the track area.
Post by: Nollster on October 12, 2004, 08:56:10 AM
) as my level of understanding has grown leaps and bounds from last October when I bought my first new ball (a used Truck) to my first NEW new ball (Sonic X) through my more advanced balls -- most of which I've bought used or traded golf stuff for. He does all my little "this doesn't feel quite right" fixes (mostly gratis) and willingly slugged and reslugged my thumbs as we try to chart the swelling and shrinking of that damnable appendage. He is a saint in my eyes, yet the one thing we can't agree on is my span -- I think it's too short and he tells me that's they way we drill balls now. I'm thinking of having another driller take a look at it, but feel like I'm cheating!! I don't know what I should do....
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 12, 2004, 09:07:22 AM
It's funny how we feel about our drillers.
If you have a ball drilled by another guy you hide it?
Finally I broke down and confessed. I had cheated, I'd moved to another town and shouldn't have! I would never do it again! He sulked he cried, he took my credit card for a ride of unnecessary tape, ball cleaners, oil extractions, 3 new wrist braces, a few slug and regrips a refinish and then he reluctantly took me back!
Sound anything like your relationship with your girlfriend!?
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: Nollster on October 12, 2004, 09:20:19 AM
quote:BINGO!!!
Nollster,
It's funny how we feel about our drillers.
If you have a ball drilled by another guy you hide it?
Finally I broke down and confessed. I had cheated, I'd moved to another town and shouldn't have! I would never do it again! He sulked he cried, he took my credit card for a ride of unnecessary tape, ball cleaners, oil extractions, 3 new wrist braces, a few slug and regrips a refinish and then he reluctantly took me back!
Sound anything like your relationship with your girlfriend!?
REgards,
Luckylefty
Post by: tenpinspro on October 12, 2004, 09:42:31 AM
You guys are very nice and have a good sense of loyalty but even I understand when some of my customers go to Nats and there are just some deals that can't be passed up(on the last day). I had one of my customers actually call me and tell me there was a high end ball he could pick up for $140 drilled, I told him to get it, even helped him with the layout. Yes, I would lose money but I couldn't stop a friend/customer from saving money at the same time. It's not fair to you guys either...I'll try my best to go halfway and that's how I try to keep a good relationship with my guys.
Rick
Post by: DP3 on October 12, 2004, 09:59:07 AM
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-DP3
Post by: Nollster on October 12, 2004, 10:07:10 AM
quote:I do try like crazy to give him my business -- I buy the kids equipment there and have thought about trying to make what I think are fair deals vs. internet prices for my stuff. Once I started thinking that way, I found their prices on balls were pretty much in line with what was on the internet factoring in shipping/drilling etc. The funny thing is, I generally get a 10% discount on everything I buy and even better deals on the balls; but no matter what quote I get, the Mrs. can go in the same day and can get an even better deal!! Need to find out what's going on there!!
Hey Nollster/LL,
You guys are very nice and have a good sense of loyalty but even I understand when some of my customers go to Nats and there are just some deals that can't be passed up(on the last day). I had one of my customers actually call me and tell me there was a high end ball he could pick up for $140 drilled, I told him to get it, even helped him with the layout. Yes, I would lose money but I couldn't stop a friend/customer from saving money at the same time. It's not fair to you guys either...I'll try my best to go halfway and that's how I try to keep a good relationship with my guys.
Rick
Post by: DreadPirateRoberts on October 12, 2004, 10:59:58 AM
driller one. has a big EGO. he doesn't want to discuses anything unless you are a close customer. I use to be. but even now he balks ant any thing I say. he has very little respect for customers knowledge. he is respectful to the customers mind you.
he just know's it all and guards his work. he is great for 80% of the people that buy balls. he work really do them harm but for the more advanced bowler who cares about layouts, he not the guy.
Hate internet balls or bringing in used balls.
Driller number #2. open doesn't care to guard his layouts. more than happy to drill me something I want. he will suggest different layouts and we go with them sometimes. Used balls internet balls . doesn't care.
I tried the Ideal pin placement theory. he went ahead and did it. I wanted a clt drilling. he knew what it was and set me up. I suggested pitches and he checked me out and discussed it.
driller #1 drilled everything stacked and never would work with pitch changes. refused to do a CLT. he said he offeset the thumb for someone and it doesn't work.
I know that if I'm out of state and need a ball, he will drill it and ups it or give me the specs. so now he gets all my business and I send everyone I meet to him.
there are probably 5 more good drillers in my area. so don't be afraid to get the service you want
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It was a fine time for me - I was learning to fence, fight, anything anyone would teach me
Post by: DavidKSNK on October 12, 2004, 02:08:09 PM
Over the summer I went to another pro shop because I was trying to see if there was something wrong with the drilling. I was lofting the ball severely. The pro who drilled the equipment would talk **** about my lofting the ball ignoring my explaination that when I attempted to put the ball down near the foul line I was struggling to get revs on the ball, or even a ball reaction for that matter.
Went to a new pro shop and told them I wanted to purchase an Ultimate Inferno. The driller had me throw a ball with what I felt was the best feeling ball several times. We went back into the shop, he took brand new measurements. Slightly stretched the span for me middle finger, went to a circular thumb hole (had oval shaped thumbs on the equipment by driller #1). When he was done, I throw a couple of balls and I noticed drastically that I was not lofting the ball as much. I'd say a good 8 feet of loft was eliminated. I used to loft to a little before the arrows, then suddenly I wasn't. Since then I have been able to work with getting the ball down at the foul line. I feel much better in terms of the ball coming off my hand and controling the reaction of the ball.
A few weeks later driller #1 got wind of my going elsewhere for a ball and proceeded to talk **** about the driller I got the Ultimate Inferno from. Then he said how the guy was known for drilling illegally stacked balls (ignoring the fact that some of the top bowlers in the area go to that driller). Then he proceeded to tell me that if I shot any honor scores that night he would call the ABC to have the ball checked. Since then I have had all my equipment plugged and redrilled by driller #2 and feel better about throwing every thing.
The question now, would I be better off sticking to the second driller because I feel more comfortable throwing the balls. Driller #1 claims that my spans were fine. Also would any of the pro shop operators here say things like that to a customer who went elsewhere?
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Somewhere in the far distant future Lane #1's slogan will be..."Lane #1, out-carrying Storm for over 50 years!"
Post by: DreadPirateRoberts on October 12, 2004, 03:46:07 PM
getting a good feel is key. there are guideline to start from. it's not an exact science. from there a good driller should listen to what your saying and make adjustments.
I personally am always tweaking with pitches and spans. once I find a comfortable grip I just make small increments to try and get what I need out of my releases. keeping comfort above any other notion of revs or tilt..
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It was a fine time for me - I was learning to fence, fight, anything anyone would teach me