BallReviews

General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: n00dlejester on December 28, 2017, 11:54:12 AM

Title: Working on Timing
Post by: n00dlejester on December 28, 2017, 11:54:12 AM
After years of not understanding early vs. late timing, I'm working with a coach that's helping me finish sliding before releasing the ball. My problem is that I tend to 'carry' the ball a bit and start my armswing a tad bit late, causing me to muscle the swing both up and down. This causes some (severe) misfires.

That said, what triggers do you guys use to help start the armswing at the right time? Any drills? Anything I can do at home? Any and all help would be greatly appreciated!

Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: BallReviews-Removed0385 on December 28, 2017, 12:44:19 PM

Get a copy of The Game Changer by Mark Baker and learn about the "timing spot".  It will be the best $25 you'll spend on your game, and it's loaded with other things that will help you.

Anything that makes you muscle your armswing needs to be re-evaluated for the very reason you mentioned (misfires).  Bowling is about REPETITION.  If you can repeat your shot with regularity, and hit your intended targets, all that's left is staying lined up. 
Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: storybook123 on December 28, 2017, 12:54:01 PM
if you do a 4 step approach think of your foot and hand being on a frozen rope tied together, when one moves on your first step the other must move at the same time.
Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: n00dlejester on December 28, 2017, 01:24:22 PM
Thank you for this, notclay! I'll be picking this up ASAP!!


Get a copy of The Game Changer by Mark Baker and learn about the "timing spot".  It will be the best $25 you'll spend on your game, and it's loaded with other things that will help you.

Anything that makes you muscle your armswing needs to be re-evaluated for the very reason you mentioned (misfires).  Bowling is about REPETITION.  If you can repeat your shot with regularity, and hit your intended targets, all that's left is staying lined up. 

Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: n00dlejester on December 28, 2017, 02:49:49 PM
I do a 5 step approach, but I understand this concept. I try real hard to do the frozen-rope thing, but sometimes I carry that ball too damn far! Stupid ball.

if you do a 4 step approach think of your foot and hand being on a frozen rope tied together, when one moves on your first step the other must move at the same time.
Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: storybook123 on December 29, 2017, 06:40:06 AM
I do a 5 step approach, but I understand this concept. I try real hard to do the frozen-rope thing, but sometimes I carry that ball too damn far! Stupid ball.

if you do a 4 step approach think of your foot and hand being on a frozen rope tied together, when one moves on your first step the other must move at the same time.


I do a 5 step as well, where do you start the ball? I start mine pretty low near my hip height, so that way even if I am a little late in my timing I have a shorter back swing versus starting the ball at chest height which creates a bigger back swing, and when you're late with a big back swing its harder to just sit there at the line waiting for the ball to catch up.
Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: AlonzoHarris on December 29, 2017, 11:44:07 AM
I do a 5 step approach as well. I start a slight move forward with the ball like an inch or two as an initiator in my first step. I try to have my arm extended and ball on the down swing when my second step completes. Maybe it's not 100% textbook, but it keeps my timing in check, for the most part haha.
Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: michiganbowlingcoach on January 01, 2018, 11:38:49 AM
Practice about 1000 shots is the only way you can change your muscle memory . What is wrong with your early timing?
Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: HackJandy on January 01, 2018, 12:52:48 PM
Getting a coach means you are already ahead of the curve.  Me, I am too stubborn to do it any way but by myself.  Finally averaging over 180 (190 in sight) but took the long way to do so.  Still do recommend taking a look at http://stores.eileensbowlingbuddy.com as they have some aides awesome for building strength and working on timing muscle memory.  The other thing I found is sometimes release and follow through problems can make you think they are timing problems or arm swing problems.  Finally figuring out how to consistently control my axis rotation with my hand and finger positions at release and follow through made a lot of the other problems I thought I had go away.
Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: Mako on January 03, 2018, 01:06:17 PM
Getting a coach means you are already ahead of the curve.  Me, I am too stubborn to do it any way but by myself.  Finally averaging over 180 (190 in sight) but took the long way to do so.  Still do recommend taking a look at http://stores.eileensbowlingbuddy.com as they have some aides awesome for building strength and working on timing muscle memory.  The other thing I found is sometimes release and follow through problems can make you think they are timing problems or arm swing problems.  Finally figuring out how to consistently control my axis rotation with my hand and finger positions at release and follow through made a lot of the other problems I thought I had go away.

180/190 - how hard is the house you bowl in?!?!

Maybe you need to try some Storm/ Roto grip equipment!!!! ;D
Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: HackJandy on January 03, 2018, 03:14:26 PM
Getting a coach means you are already ahead of the curve.  Me, I am too stubborn to do it any way but by myself.  Finally averaging over 180 (190 in sight) but took the long way to do so.  Still do recommend taking a look at http://stores.eileensbowlingbuddy.com as they have some aides awesome for building strength and working on timing muscle memory.  The other thing I found is sometimes release and follow through problems can make you think they are timing problems or arm swing problems.  Finally figuring out how to consistently control my axis rotation with my hand and finger positions at release and follow through made a lot of the other problems I thought I had go away.

180/190 - how hard is the house you bowl in?!?!

Maybe you need to try some Storm/ Roto grip equipment!!!! ;D

Have some.  Ball doesn't throw game for you sadly.  Just got back into bowling after long layoff sure I will be up over 200 here in no time.  Was around there when I quit some years back.
Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: n00dlejester on January 03, 2018, 03:24:42 PM
I do a 5 step approach, but I understand this concept. I try real hard to do the frozen-rope thing, but sometimes I carry that ball too damn far! Stupid ball.

if you do a 4 step approach think of your foot and hand being on a frozen rope tied together, when one moves on your first step the other must move at the same time.


I do a 5 step as well, where do you start the ball? I start mine pretty low near my hip height, so that way even if I am a little late in my timing I have a shorter back swing versus starting the ball at chest height which creates a bigger back swing, and when you're late with a big back swing its harder to just sit there at the line waiting for the ball to catch up.

I start the ball maybe a hair above hip level, so probably real similar to you. I actually took some video last night and the timing felt pretty good towards the end of league. I'll try to upload them after work and show the world my timing.
Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: n00dlejester on January 03, 2018, 03:26:37 PM
Practice about 1000 shots is the only way you can change your muscle memory . What is wrong with your early timing?

1000 shots - sounds like a frat party, lol. I'm hopeful to work on that over the next few weeks.

As for my issue, I my feet there early and feel the urge to muscle the ball down during my downswing. I'd say 5/10 times I can get away with it, and 5/10 times is really inconsistent (speed, trajectory, axis tilt/rotation, revs). I want to eliminate the inconsistency by having a more repeatable armswing.
Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: n00dlejester on January 03, 2018, 03:27:50 PM
Getting a coach means you are already ahead of the curve.  Me, I am too stubborn to do it any way but by myself.  Finally averaging over 180 (190 in sight) but took the long way to do so.  Still do recommend taking a look at http://stores.eileensbowlingbuddy.com as they have some aides awesome for building strength and working on timing muscle memory.  The other thing I found is sometimes release and follow through problems can make you think they are timing problems or arm swing problems.  Finally figuring out how to consistently control my axis rotation with my hand and finger positions at release and follow through made a lot of the other problems I thought I had go away.

This site has some amazing tools! I might splurge on one of them. Thank you for this link.
Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: HackJandy on January 03, 2018, 03:57:04 PM
Getting a coach means you are already ahead of the curve.  Me, I am too stubborn to do it any way but by myself.  Finally averaging over 180 (190 in sight) but took the long way to do so.  Still do recommend taking a look at http://stores.eileensbowlingbuddy.com as they have some aides awesome for building strength and working on timing muscle memory.  The other thing I found is sometimes release and follow through problems can make you think they are timing problems or arm swing problems.  Finally figuring out how to consistently control my axis rotation with my hand and finger positions at release and follow through made a lot of the other problems I thought I had go away.

This site has some amazing tools! I might splurge on one of them. Thank you for this link.

No problem.  For swing timing I would say get either the power trainer or swing trainer.  Power trainer is closer to real weight of ball and builds more strength but swing trainer is a little better for diagnosing muscling and for working on timing as can swing it easier and more times.  Plus its better for working on keeping your swing plane straight if need to.  I have both.
Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: n00dlejester on January 04, 2018, 10:18:55 AM
As promised, here's a video of how things are going lately. If I were to grade this shot, it felt like a C to me - maybe a C+ because the release felt clean.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1uRYNtwuPQynuGuD2gXFRt9R-2lxBkYYT
Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: bergman on January 04, 2018, 12:40:47 PM
N00dlejester:  Thanks for posting a video of your approach.  I too, have late timing (I had it all my life).  In my view, correcting timing errors is one of the most difficult tasks to accomplish, especially if you have been bowling for a long, long time with late timing. Many of the posters have already given you (and others) some excellent suggestions. 

"Late timing" can actually increase release leverage at the foul line provided the timing is not excessively late. Late timing can occur during any portion of the approach phase, and for different reasons. For me, I have long arms, which results in a slower swing speed. Although my armswing speed is a tad slower , the leverage created by my long arms (and long legs) generates a lot of ball speed all on their own. I also have no trouble getting the ball into that "pro zone" on the backswing. My late timing occurs much later in my approach.  So for me, getting the ball into the swing even earlier, exacerbates my late timing because the earlier you get the ball into the swing, the faster the feet go. For me, my "triggers" for achieving better timing are twofold:

1. I always try to match my footwork speed with the speed of my armswing.

2. As I launch into my last step, I discipline myself to "wait" for the ball to catch up to my slide foot by relying solely on gravity to bring the ball down from the top of the backswing.  (In fact, my entire swing cycle is gravity-fed).

Judging from your video, indeed, you have some late timing at release but it does not look too bad. You do start your downswing a bit late, which prevents you from getting into that pro zone on "time". I like Norm Duke's suggestion on this. He said the key is to start the swing phase AS SOON AS your second step compresses on the approach (for a 5-stepper). In other words, as soon as you feel your second step
compressing on the approach, remove your left (support) hand from the ball AT THE SAME TIME, without any delay, and allow the ball to descend into the backswing. This should get you into the pro zone on time .  Allow the ball to swing with no muscle (or minimal muscle) throughout the entire approach and remember to wait for the ball to descend on its own power at release.

Good luck to you. You otherwise have a very nice approach!
Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: n00dlejester on January 04, 2018, 05:48:49 PM
Hi Bergman, thanks so much for your thoughtful input & kind words!

I think I understand what you mean by the "pro zone" during the armswing - it's that little moment when the ball feels weightless and you can follow the ball all the way through to the follow-through. It's nice to have someone put it into words for me, haha.

I do have a question. I'm a bit confused by this statement:
Quote
I like Norm Duke's suggestion on this. He said the key is to start the swing phase AS SOON AS your second step compresses on the approach (for a 5-stepper). In other words, as soon as you feel your second step compressing on the approach, remove your left (support) hand from the ball AT THE SAME TIME, without any delay, and allow the ball to descend into the backswing.

The word "compress" is confusing me a bit. Could you elaborate on that a bit? Or perhaps is there a Duke video to illustrate this point?

Thank you again, Bergman!
Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: Aloarjr810 on January 04, 2018, 06:52:04 PM
Norm Duke - Learn to bowl competitively: 07 Timing


Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: michiganbowlingcoach on January 07, 2018, 10:26:16 AM
Practice about 1000 shots is the only way you can change your muscle memory . What is wrong with your early timing?

1000 shots - sounds like a frat party, lol. I'm hopeful to work on that over the next few weeks.

As for my issue, I my feet there early and feel the urge to muscle the ball down during my downswing. I'd say 5/10 times I can get away with it, and 5/10 times is really inconsistent (speed, trajectory, axis tilt/rotation, revs). I want to eliminate the inconsistency by having a more repeatable armswing.

This means you need to get the ball into the swing earlier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaX_CLp-qvQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kd7Bxc5Xg8E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDB1rAhEgoU

Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: n00dlejester on January 09, 2018, 07:07:58 AM
Thank you all for the responses! There's some great stuff here.

I watched the Duke video a few times, and even tried to apply it during my Sunday bowling. Changing something during competition is difficult, but I did my best and felt a few shots that were real smooth.

@jkirkerx: thank you so much for that response - I appreciate you spending the time to help me out! I really like your idea of visualizing the shot, the swing, and the result. If you can see it in the mind, you can do it with the body.

After observing myself bowl on Sunday, I learned that I focus on my feet and force my armswing to catch up.  Based on the above responses, it seems like I want to focus on my armswing and have my feet follow the swing. Or at least do more of the latter than I am now.

I have league tonight on Beijing Pattern (same as was in the video I previously posted). After league I plan on rolling some games to practice my armswing / timing. My goal is to let gravity control the speed of my swing, and to try to have my feet 'follow' the armswing.  I'll take some videos and post them up tonight or tomorrow morning.

Thanks again, everybody! I really appreciate it.
Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: michiganbowlingcoach on January 09, 2018, 06:01:35 PM
After looking at your video I like your timing. Try this - after the ball has reached the top of the back swing let the ball drop (let gravity do its magic) into the downswing. You will be able to be more consistent and stay behind the ball better.
Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: n00dlejester on January 10, 2018, 11:53:04 AM
Hey Michiganbowlingcoach, that's exactly what one of the local pros said! I tried doing it after I took a video last night, and it felt different. It was real nice and help the ball project down lane much better than what I normally do. I plan on practicing that tomorrow night for a good hour.

Here's a shot I tried last night using a bit more the 'frozen rope' idea. My goal was to shrink my first step a tad, and get the ball going sooner. It was an alright shot - I'd give this one a B-: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aOO_JOh33zKQLVvRmfFv-tG-ZtSGHayX

Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: Freddy on January 11, 2018, 09:39:51 AM
Camp Bakes is the BEST and his book will help you.  Well invested 25 dollars for sure!!!
Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: n00dlejester on January 12, 2018, 07:14:00 AM
I practiced last night, and focused hard on letting my armswing dictate my steps. I also tried shortening my first step to more of a shuffle step to allow longer 4th and 5th steps.

Shot 1: pretty solid shot, I'd give myself a B on this one https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fW-A26wP4kdeJmE3mQPWkOiPbEQstDxd/view?usp=sharing

Shot 2: my best shot of the night, and I give myself an A on this one! https://drive.google.com/file/d/12JnQi5sa8L_axX3UPyA35XDNcNhl-cxS/view?usp=sharing

I'm going to order Mark Baker's book once I get some extra cash, and really dig into this whole timing thing. Thank you again everyone for all the help! I'm glad I came back to BR - I didn't realize how much I missed the nuance of bowling until I wound up back here :)
Title: Re: Working on Timing
Post by: HackJandy on January 13, 2018, 07:21:45 PM
Just picked up that book and realized as I suspected I am early (ball almost half way in down swing before slide foot flat).  Pretty sure mostly due to not having a proper crossover step (have been stepping straight forward) which didn't allow for a free swing so was starting ball at waist and back swing barely goes above my waist which is my next mission to work on starting the ball higher with a higher backswing with a proper crossover step.  Can get the book for $10 on kindle or kindle app on your phone instantly FYI.