Author Topic: Would You Compete If... (Read 2227 times)

ThongPrincess · « **on:** July 11, 2004, 10:08:24 AM »

you knew there were bowlers bowling in modified sport leagues only so they could have a low average for a hdcp tournament?

Rumors are spreading that a certain bowler in our State tournament has restricted his bowling to modified sport leagues over the past 4-5 years so he can come into the tournament with a low average, shoot what he is capable of on a house shot and clean up in the tournament. His hdcp is based on the average from this tough shot league without the adjustment of a bowler in a sport league.

What I am calling a modified sport shot is a league that is not a recognized sport league, but puts out a sport like shot. In our area few if any houses want to go through the measuring and oiling procedures to become a certified sport league. What they do instead is sanction it a scratch league, but everyone in the area calls it a sport league.

One bowler commented this could be avoided if there were a notation in the Average Book that the league is a modified sport league. The bowler's average would then be adjusted in a similar fashion as a sport league average.
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Age is only a state of mind. Since I lost mine years ago, I must be really young

MichiganBowling · « **Reply #1 on:** July 12, 2004, 01:22:07 AM »

A whole lotta grey area there. But you are right, it has become a problem. Metro Detroit bowlers are doing that on a regular basis now.
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Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com

Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"

Strider · « **Reply #2 on:** July 12, 2004, 01:34:13 AM »

It not really different from someone who bowls in a dungeon. They average lower than they would on a THS, then pick up some pins when they do bowl on one. Sometimes bowlers have to make pretty big adjustments to their physical games to score on a tough condition, so they are out of practice for Throw Ball Ugh. They might not have as big of an advantage as you'd think, as long as they're trying their hardest to score on the harder shot.
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Penn State Proud

Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive

ThongPrincess · « **Reply #3 on:** July 12, 2004, 02:10:21 AM »

The rumor goes this bowler was a 230-240 average bowler prior to his change to the modified sport league. His book average is 193. He is currently the scratch and hdcp leader for all events and singles. If I recall right, he shot 1900 something for all events and high 700 or 800. The hdcp is 80% of 230.

I personally have competed and plan to continue to compete in the tournament. We have our date already reserved for next year in Sacramento. I was just wondering what others thought.
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Age is only a state of mind. Since I lost mine years ago, I must be really young

omegabowler · « **Reply #4 on:** July 12, 2004, 02:54:30 AM »

you cannot stop it. the org/person running the turny should be looking back 5 years. this person should also have a tournament avg.
I know back in the day( tenpinspro can verify this)in chicago, that regular tournament bowling guys keep the list of winners. so if I guy is avg 220 in tournaments and has a 180 avg they would show this to the guy running it and he would either be barred as a sandbagger or be re-rated.

handicap tournaments should not allow sport avgs or scratch bowlers. that is about all you can do, other than Munsun the guy!
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"deserves got nothing to do with it."
-- William Munny

MSC2471 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 12, 2004, 04:36:56 AM »

In most tournaments that are run in Massachusetts if you've won prize money over the past year you've had to declare it on the tournament form if it's over $300. Chances are he's had to place high in a tournament or two with that average. When that is declared you can then find out what his tournament scores were and once he establishes 21 games of tournament play, request that he be re-rated. If there is a huge difference in averages, then the re-rate request should be honored.

I would still bowl the tournament anyways. I fall into the category of a bowler who's main house would be considered a dungeon (at least by the scores), as I work very hard to average mid 190's there.

Matt

bass · « **Reply #6 on:** July 12, 2004, 08:58:05 AM »

MSC is right on the money.
If this tournament is sanctioned somewhere on the entry blank it probably states that if you've won over X amount of dollars you must declare;
the name of the tournament.
the actual prize money won.
the place you finished in.

If this isn't posted in the rules for this tournament try contacting the tournament director and see if it can be added to next years entry blank.

It never hurts to ask right?

The great one · « **Reply #7 on:** July 12, 2004, 01:11:19 PM »

We have a local city/club tourney that takes place everymonth, handicap... i've bowled every one since jan. and every month i've had over 300 shot at me in brakets, the past weekend, it happend twice. 317 and 308. But since there is only 1 scatch tourney here every 4-6 months, i don't really have a choice.

tenpinspro · « **Reply #8 on:** July 12, 2004, 01:47:28 PM »

Omega is correct, I remember the regular tourneys had a running list of bowlers and their winnings and how each were adjusted each time. Eevn now in Cal with the better tourneys that are held, there's a running list of people who get rerated/adjusted per event based on performance and cashers. I personally have a hit list of known baggers that I use in my own tourneys and also share with other organizers to help try and protect the majority. The Bay Area baggers won't even touch my tourneys anymore because they are notified in advance that they will be rerated/adjusted beforehand.

Thong P, that may be one way to help stop this from continually happening. If a bowler comes in and whacks a tourney because of his/her lower avg, have the tourney Dir adjust them next time so they will no longer have the same amount of hdcp. You may lose that individual but gain more bowlers like yourself. Adding 10-15 pins based on sport league avg isn't even enough sometimes, so the notation in the avg book might not even help.

Rick

ThongPrincess · « **Reply #9 on:** July 12, 2004, 07:03:35 PM »

They do have a 5 pin drop rule and 10 pin increase rule. My doubles partner had a 230 book in 2001-2002, a 216 in 2002-2003, and a 220 in 2203-2004. He came in with a 225 and we had no problem with it. Last year I had a 171 book for 2001-2002 and a 189 for 2002-2003, I reported the increase and was brought in with the 189.

They also require you to report any tournament winnings of over $300 for a single event. I had to report it this year for both ABCs and this tourney. I won $327 last year in CA Women's State for a tie for 2nd in singles.

On the form I had to fill out for the reporting of prize winnings, the bottom is for average. They ask if you have 21 games or more in tournament play with a higher average than book. I don't know if this guy has been bowling the tournament regularly or not. If he has, then I suspect that when they do the final checks it should be caught.

Too bad all bowlers don't have the pride and integrity. I guess until the day comes that bowlers enter tournaments for the challenge and not the money, this will be a problem and such bowlers will be fuel for rumors.
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Age is only a state of mind. Since I lost mine years ago, I must be really young

janderson · « **Reply #10 on:** July 12, 2004, 07:53:06 PM »

One guy cleaned up in the City tournament this year. The reason was simple: he bowled all of his events before noon and he doesn't like to drink before noon. On league nights, he's hammered 99% of the time. He was overheard saying during the City competition "I never bowl scores this high, I wish I knew why I'm bowling like this". Well, not falling all over himself and only seeing 7 instead of 21 arrows on the lane might be a good start...

Honestly, I don't think the guy does it maliciously or with any kind of sand-bagger intention. He's just a happy drunk who likes to bowl. What do we do with him?

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Kill the back row (or maybe this should read "make your spares, dummy")

DP3 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 12, 2004, 07:53:38 PM »

My opinion is if you bowl handicap, you don't have the right to complain about sandbaggers that have more handicap going in than you.

You know it's a handicap tournament. It's never going to be fair. Step up your game and bowl scratch if you want fairness.
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-DJ Marshall
You're not Bowling if you're not using "B"runswick
Scratchbowling.com

ThongPrincess · « **Reply #12 on:** July 12, 2004, 08:15:42 PM »

DP3, Not complaining just wondering how many would pass on the tournament if they knew in advance there were definitely bowlers playing the game. By playing the game I am refering to limiting your league choices to modified sport leagues that are not certified/recognized sport compliant leagues with the intent of taking all the top cash in the tourney.

I stated already I have a reservation in for 2 teams for next year.

Hmmm maybe I should get a team of only bowlers who bowl the modified sport leagues and we could maybe make the record book

.....No, I'll just stick with my friends and have another great time at State.
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Age is only a state of mind. Since I lost mine years ago, I must be really young

DP3 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 12, 2004, 10:54:12 PM »

It's handicap bowling, there's always going to be sandbaggers involved. It's not like you have to guess in advance whether or not there are going to be sandbaggers.
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-DJ Marshall
You're not Bowling if you're not using "B"runswick
Scratchbowling.com

Author Topic: Would You Compete If... (Read 2227 times)

ThongPrincess

Would You Compete If...

MichiganBowling

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Strider

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ThongPrincess

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omegabowler

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MSC2471

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bass

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The great one

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tenpinspro

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ThongPrincess

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janderson

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DP3

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ThongPrincess

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DP3

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