Post by: Juggernaut on November 21, 2010, 04:00:48 AM
Then, for whatever reason, things have seemed to cool WAY down. There aren't that many who still talk about them much here, and very little buzz seems to exist as to whether they are coming out with new stuff or not.
They just came out with the Perpetual Motion, and it seemed to be mentioned here almost as an afterthought.
Does anyone here know?
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Good transactions list in my profile
Post by: n00dlejester on November 21, 2010, 12:08:07 PM
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Your Guide to the Big Apple (http://"http://www.localapple.com/")
Obviously, you aren't a golfer.
Some stayed in the foothills, some washed logs like teeth.
Post by: Cobalt Bomb on November 21, 2010, 12:38:09 PM
1)Brunswick coverstocks and the bad publicity resulting from Brunswick's move to Mexico. There were some quality issues as well right after the move.
2)The cores tend to overwhelm the covers resulting in very early roll.
3)Intensive marketing efforts by the other companies and the rise of 900G.
4)Changes in status with PBA (no longer even Grassroots approved).
Judging by what I have seen recently, the products may be improving, with better covers and higher RG cores that may match up with more bowlers.
Post by: ginro on November 21, 2010, 12:45:59 PM
Post by: Juggernaut on November 21, 2010, 12:57:23 PM
quote:
they should go to storm or ebo
If you have nothing of value to add to the conversation, your opinions are invalid.
This is a question concerning Mo-Rich, and is in the Mo-Rich forum. I'm sure your comments would be appreciated more elsewhere.
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Good transactions list in my profile
Post by: ginro on November 21, 2010, 01:12:29 PM
quote:quote:
they should go to storm or ebo
If you have nothing of value to add to the conversation, your opinions are invalid.
This is a question concerning Mo-Rich, and is in the Mo-Rich forum. I''''''''m sure your comments would be appreciated more elsewhere.
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Good transactions list in my profile
Im telling that they should go to Storm/Ebo... cuz they have better reputation than Brunswick and also they have more coverstocks than them...
If Morich is running the same way that LAne1 with brunswick, they''''''''re giving Morich just older coverstocks i remember a Brunswick intl. staffer telling me that latest balls from lane 1(with brusnwick coverstocks like cobalts) had the older Brunswick covers like powerkoil18..
So maybe the cores from morich are great... but they''''''''re using older coverstocks that don''''''''t work in todays conditions!
Edited on 11/21/2010 2:22 PM
Post by: glssmn2001 on November 21, 2010, 01:19:20 PM
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http://www.bowlerstuff.com/
Post by: The Bowlers Edge 2 on November 21, 2010, 01:44:12 PM
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The Bowler's Edge Pro Shop
Post by: glssmn2001 on November 21, 2010, 01:57:15 PM
quote:
starting with the LevRG the huge market for these balls were how you could drill them and they be totally different with different layouts. Watch any of the videos on their site and you'll see 2 of whatever ball one strong one weak to show how different reaction you can get with the same ball with different layouts.... your ave joe blow customer isn't goin to be buying 2 high end of the same ball 99% of the time. Combine the sensitivity of the layout to alot of pro shop operators that don't take the time to measure tilt/rotation/PAP and you get balls reacting a way the customer didn't want, thus a "DUD" just my theory about why these balls are not as popular.
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The Bowler's Edge Pro Shop
This is true for a lot of people, let it be known this is not the case for me.
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http://www.bowlerstuff.com/
Post by: tywithay on November 21, 2010, 02:33:14 PM
Post by: stormfanken on November 21, 2010, 02:54:57 PM
Edited on 11/22/2010 1:27 PM
Post by: agroves on November 21, 2010, 03:21:30 PM
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Proshop Operator
North Bowl Bowling Center
www.northbowlspokane.com
Post by: makpa on November 21, 2010, 11:50:07 PM
Post by: mainzer on November 22, 2010, 12:17:56 AM
[/quote]
Im telling that they should go to Storm/Ebo... cuz they have better reputation than Brunswick and also they have more coverstocks than them...
If Morich is running the same way that LAne1 with brunswick, they''''''''re giving Morich just older coverstocks i remember a Brunswick intl. staffer telling me that latest balls from lane 1(with brusnwick coverstocks like cobalts) had the older Brunswick covers like powerkoil18..
So maybe the cores from morich are great... but they''''''''re using older coverstocks that don''''''''t work in todays conditions!
Edited on 11/21/2010 2:22 PM[/quote]
On the contrary Morich uses tweaked Brunswick covers and the covers used by Mo are on Brunswicks High end gear such as the Siege Line, On to the next point. Ebonite covers are some of the worst in the industry, How many truly good bowling balls has Ebonite the Flagship had in the last ten years? The Mission, the One, and NV thats is about it. Their covers have a track record of dying out after low numbes of games, why bother to use a Ebonite cover? Further more, Older covers work just as well, if not better than in some cases, modern covers. I have shot some of my best sets with older gear in the last five years. Oil in todays game is diminishing so who wants/needs stronger covers? Even on the PBA it is rare to see guys throwing the big hooking ball, Look at how much Urethane and Mid performance stuff is being used. Less and less volume makes the new covers look like garbage and older covers look amazing. Do you homework next time. Also Mo's cores are the driving force in his gear, he approaches that aspect of design, though not as much right now I will concede, differently from other most other companies.
makpa, All Morich gear is poured by Big B, Rip/R's cover is a modified Version of what is used on the Evil Siege, and the Motion on the lanes shows it, I have throwen both balls and the look is similiar, But you can tell the core in the Rip/R has alot more power than that of the Evil Siege.
--------------------
"Complexity lay within the artistry of execution"
+++Henry Zou+++
Founding FatherBR Inquisition
MainzerPower
Post by: dizzyfugu on November 22, 2010, 12:37:42 AM
Besides, I think that the cores made the ball more and more limited in use. I has the local case that many players tried out the LevRG series balls, but were very disappointed in the reactions they got - probably due to the specific nature of the cores. Those balls would quickly get dropped, and replaced by mainstream high end stuff. Not that this would yield a better reaction, but it is a mental thing, IMHO. Mo's balls have been there as high end, technical stuff - that does not work in Joe Bowler's hands. Other high end balls are similar, but "Hey, it's XXX", this is a great ball, just because 10 pins fall. The ball STILL does not perform well, but it is a different perception.
IMHO, MoRich is currently in a dnagerous nowhere land. What does the brand stand for? Recycled Brunswick covers, maybe tweaked, and aberage core designs. While this combo is NOT bad at all, I do not think that it is a vital selling argument or does anything to differentiate MoRich products from th rest of the bunch.
They could easily end up as "Lane #2" if the management does not put some thought into marketing... Sad!
--------------------
DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Post by: ginro on November 22, 2010, 12:47:44 AM
quote:
Im telling that they should go to Storm/Ebo... cuz they have better reputation than Brunswick and also they have more coverstocks than them...
If Morich is running the same way that LAne1 with brunswick, they''re giving Morich just older coverstocks i remember a Brunswick intl. staffer telling me that latest balls from lane 1(with brusnwick coverstocks like cobalts) had the older Brunswick covers like powerkoil18..
So maybe the cores from morich are great... but they''re using older coverstocks that don''t work in todays conditions!
Edited on 11/21/2010 2:22 PM[/quote]
On the contrary Morich uses tweaked Brunswick covers and the covers used by Mo are on Brunswick''s High end gear such as the Siege Line, On to the next point. Ebonite covers are some of the worst in the industry, How many truly good bowling balls has Ebonite the Flagship had in the last ten years? The Mission, the One, and NV thats is about it. Their covers have a track record of dying out after low numbes of games, why bother to use a Ebonite cover? Further more, Older covers work just as well, if not better than in some cases, modern covers. I have shot some of my best sets with older gear in the last five years. Oil in todays game is diminishing so who wants/needs stronger covers? Even on the PBA it is rare to see guys throwing the big hooking ball, Look at how much Urethane and Mid performance stuff is being used. Less and less volume makes the new covers look like garbage and older covers look amazing. Do you homework next time. Also Mo''s cores are the driving force in his gear, he approaches that aspect of design, though not as much right now I will concede, differently from other most other companies.
makpa, All Morich gear is poured by Big B, Rip/R''s cover is a modified Version of what is used on the Evil Siege, and the Motion on the lanes shows it, I have throwen both balls and the look is similiar, But you can tell the core in the Rip/R has alot more power than that of the Evil Siege.
--------------------
"Complexity lay within the artistry of execution"
+++Henry Zou+++
Founding FatherBR Inquisition
MainzerPower
[/quote]
well we should see why ebonite success is growing while morich even with those super cores is going to red numbers... you can look for the rip/r frenzys and all the newest from morich in ebay for 80 bucks shipped... if you put them under "one of the worst companies in coverstocks"" they will go up in sales i can assure that because lots of bowlers thinks that BIG B since the move to mexico went down in quality , and they watch a company like Ebonite that has hammer track and columbia under their production every week on tour,so who you will choose?
Ebonite or Storm or even Global 900!! that way morich could do more in the market...
have nothing against big B i like them.but i think that Morich cores should go well with newest coverstocks and not with Big b (newer or older ones) because they tend to spend the energy very soon and with those high mb and high differentials in Morich cores it ends up in ball with nothing in the backend
Edited on 11/22/2010 1:57 AM
Post by: J_Mac on November 22, 2010, 05:12:05 AM
quote:
Morich is being pured by 900Global today not brunswick anymore
Please do some fact checking...
I'll be attending a seminar in a couple weeks where BOTH Brunswick and Mo will be presenting info on new pieces and layouts for the modern conditions.
http://www.morichbowling.com/MosCorner/November2010/SuccessfulLayouts.pdf
Post by: BowlingChat on November 22, 2010, 08:06:35 AM
quote:
Morich is being pured by 900Global today not brunswick anymore
Thats an outright fabrication.
Mo is still with Brunswick.
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BowlingChat.net (http://"http://bowlingchat.net")
Post by: BowlingChat on November 22, 2010, 08:10:28 AM
http://forum.bowlingchat.net
Thanks.
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BowlingChat.net (http://"http://bowlingchat.net")
Post by: mainzer on November 22, 2010, 08:29:32 AM
Cover's? Mo Pinel Tweakes Brunswicks covers to get a reaction he chooses, Your telling me that taking the cover on the Prodidgy having Mo tweak it and putting it on a MoRich core is going to make Mo's stuff roll later on the lane? No. Cause Mo knows more about ball reaction than we can dream of And if Mo wants the ball to hook on the backend he will make it do that.
The whole mexico arugment I won't get into, seeing as the computer you typed that reply on was made in Japan.
Any companies "New" covers will burn energy early, they are all stronger than last years.
If you try drilling a ball to get down the lane it will, Their are layouts designed for that.
It seems like you are stuck on the reaction people got from the LevRG line, Which i will admit if the ball wasnt drilled to get down lane it did roll early. But the new gear the Frenzy, Craze, Mania and Rip/R are nothing like that, I have actually got easier length than guys throwing Storm/Roto.
--------------------
"Complexity lay within the artistry of execution"
+++Henry Zou+++
Founding FatherBR Inquisition
MainzerPower
Post by: dizzyfugu on November 22, 2010, 08:54:49 AM
quote:
If you try drilling a ball to get down the lane it will, Their are layouts designed for that.
+1. IF there are cores/ball out there which actually are designed to offer dramatic differences in reaction shape through drilling/setup, it used to be Morich. That's the selling point and also the pitfall of the brand's concept.
IMHO, most people who do not see a decent reaction with these balls do not use them properly - with various reasons. Ball drillers used to (and still are) ignore the special drilling instructions for high MB cores, players with poor release tried to "buy the hook" with such a ball, or the strong stuff was just used on too little oil. "Uh, da ball rolls out. Dat's crap! Mo no good!".
If you buy such a ball (as any of today's strong asymmetrical high end pieces), you better know what you want it to do. There is actually some brains involved when trying to use such a piece.
--------------------
DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Post by: TWOHAND834 on November 22, 2010, 10:13:17 AM
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If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: Norm3v on November 23, 2010, 02:27:17 PM
You have to remember too, we have been in a deep recession the past 3 or 4 years, so people aren't willing to put down over 200 dollars just to try out a new ball and if they dont like it turn around and sell it for 50 bucks used. They are going to play it safe and buy a more well known brand, not something that isn't really pushed by a lot of pro shops or internet sites. I got into Morich 8 years ago from reading online how good they were and the fact that my previous ball driller is friends with Mo and travels around the country with him doing seminars. I might now throw their stuff anymore due to mostly economic reasons, but I root for them to succeed because their product is very good.
Post by: lsf_21 on November 23, 2010, 02:42:09 PM
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GO CUBS!!!!
GO CELTICS!!!!
Post by: OddBalls on November 23, 2010, 02:51:20 PM
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Yes. it's I, the Inverted One..
Post by: Stan on November 23, 2010, 03:32:20 PM
The other problem is not too many shops carry MoRich. Also, I hated that huge Pin (size of a slver dollar (almost)) on the ball. Just did not look as good as the other manufacturers on the shelf.
Post by: 230-n-up-or-bust on November 23, 2010, 03:55:21 PM
quote:
IMHO, the are excellent ball, but VERY drill sensitive
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Yes. it's I, the Inverted One..
One can also say that it requires something other than an IQ equal to the size of your shoe to properly game plan, lay out, and drill a bowling ball. Not a knock on any one person but you're sure as hell not a pro in the pro shop business simply 'cause you bought a drill press. The number of people that fail to identify a customer's needs before putting holes in a ball are astounding. I've got a Rip/R that I received from Mo around the time of release. My driller and I had a game plan based on my arsenal, axis tilt, axis rotation, ball speed, rev rate, and intended reaction. We nailed it. This will be a tournament piece that has higher volumes to help get reaction without my ball speed slowing to a crawl. This core/cover combo has given me a look I've never seen before in a MoRich ball and I have had it in my bag since we put holes in it.
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Return with your shield or on it. Strength and honor. Help control the population of Avenging Unicorns. Arm yourselves accordingly. MTIXE
"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous."-Nick Faldo
Post by: J_w73 on November 23, 2010, 05:01:13 PM
quote:
IMHO, the are excellent ball, but VERY drill sensitive
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Yes. it's I, the Inverted One..
I would agree. More than likely most people put too long of a pin to pap on his bowling balls. Strong cover + strong asymmetrical core + long pin to pap equals the ball wanting to roll forward as soon as possible.
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18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 5, High Series 808
Book Average 220,PBA Xperience 185
Post by: kidlost2000 on November 23, 2010, 05:47:30 PM
He is very knowledgeable and eager to help anyone. Sometimes it can be too much information for people to understand and may end up with some confusion. You take the bowling ball cores and covers at the time of the LVRG and combine that with the info being put out about dual angle layouts and x-hole location and you can end up with some bad results.
I will say that those were some very aggressive covers used on those bowling balls, along with very strong cores. Many times for me there isn't enough oil for that kind of equipment, and surface changes must be made.
I lost interest when the newer stuff came out. Frenzy, Craze, ect. It just didn't appeal to me. There is so much to choose from in bowling, and the market here in the U.S. isn't big enough to truly support all of them.
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Be good, or be good at it.
Post by: MORULES on November 24, 2010, 02:25:17 PM
I feel very confident each time I step on the lanes, that I know what my equipment is going to do. I base this on my drillers and my understanding of the dual angle layouts, the cover grits, and my past success with the brand.
I love the fact he posts layouts on MoRichbowling.com. For example, there is a plastic ball tournament in my area on Friday. On the site, there is information on how balls for Brian Ziesig and Walter Ray were drilled for last years plastic ball PBA tournament. It explained how this drilling increased differential by 120% over standard label drilled plastic balls. I copied the layout and was able to shoot 268 on a house shot with 2nd drill TZONE. I'm not an overly intelligent guy, but the research and numbers don't lie. I've had 2 300's and 4 700's in the last couple months bowling league on a limited basis due to my work schedule.
I can see how MoRich can slip through the cracks lately. Most of their balls are pretty high end hook monsters. I think they are addressing it lately with the RipR and now the Perpetual Motion. If you watch the videos, you can see the wide variety of ball reactions coming from their new stuff. I guess, thats why I throw with Mo.
Post by: Bigmike on November 25, 2010, 09:17:50 AM
Around here, his stuff is so overpowering in the front/mid-lane that about the only guys who regularity use his stuff are straighter players. Once in awhile someone will bust out the Awesome Flip when the lanes start to open up.
In my opinion it seemed around here like the interest in his stuff slowed down when the LevRG ball series ran its course. There were plenty who drilled the original and the NTense, a couple who got the Sold LevRG because we caught them a great close out price and passed it on to our customers. That also happened to be about when Walter Ray left MoRich and when you have a guy getting your ball on TV as often as he did, it definitely helps sales.
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"Why don't you call me sometime.....when you have no class" ~~Rodney Dangerfield to Sally Kellerman, his college professor in Back to School ~~1986
Mike Craig - Storm Products Pro Shop staff -Columbus, OH
Post by: Adrenaline on November 30, 2010, 01:45:56 AM
Bowlingchat.net
Same thing with Lane 1 on BBE. It seems like there's a lot less Lane 1 talk, but in reality it's just slowly migrating to a more focused forum to avoid trolls. In this case it'd be lane1bowling.com
Post by: qstick777 on November 30, 2010, 09:03:31 AM
quote:
One can also say that it requires something other than an IQ equal to the size of your shoe to properly game plan, lay out, and drill a bowling ball. Not a knock on any one person but you're sure as hell not a pro in the pro shop business simply 'cause you bought a drill press. The number of people that fail to identify a customer's needs before putting holes in a ball are astounding.
+1 for the truth.
Can't begin to imagine the number of shops that never ask about style or measure for PAP. You get two drillings - label and "max hook."
I was in a shop and heard the guy ask the customer - "did we drill that last ball for maximum hook? Did it have a 4th hole on the side?" Of course he doesn't sell MoRich products.
As far as MoRich, I've only had a few balls (Archon and Total Annihilation) and never had a problem with any of them. I do have a few NIB from the Lev line to drill up at a later date.
You will find good info at http://forum.bowlingchat.net
It's nice that Mo takes time to participate and answer questions.
Post by: TheDude on December 01, 2010, 01:18:34 PM
+1,000! had a customer come in today with a span that was 1/2 inch too long, with a round thumb the wrong thumb pitching and discoloring on both fingers. either the ball driller that originally drilled the ball missed by a mile or can't measure for jack.
in the last 6 years, there is been 2 proshops in particular that have changed ownership every two years or less because someone steps in that is a 220 average bowler and has a bevel sander. missed spans, pitching, you name it they dont even know how to use a minimal amount of glue to put in some inserts.
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Timothy @Juniors Pro-Shops
LaSalle, Quebec-Located inside Pont Mercier Lanes.
Keep them honest!
Ebay store updated very often: http://stores.ebay.com/gumby3170?refid+store
Post by: bltbyj on December 03, 2010, 09:32:00 PM
quote:
Well, I was leery also about Morich stuff. I bought a Brunswick Wild Ride, and it was the worst ball I ever used. So, I was looking for a new ball, and I wanted to know if Brunswick/Morich had improved their covers. So I went to the source on the Morich chat line. First I got the run around from others wanting to know my PAP, Rev Rate, etc. Finally MO himself got on their. He basically admitted that yes the Wild Ride wasn't what it was suppose to be (in fact another person got on there and stated the insiders called it the Mild Ride). By reading between the lines I figured that they (Brunswick/Morich) did have some below par covers. MO did tell me that they do use some of the identical covers as Brunswick on some of their Balls (usually lower performing stuff), but on their High end stuff they tweak the formula per Morich's specs. As far as Ebonite, I had some real duds with them, but I did have some good ones too. It was like a crap shoot with them. Inconsistent at best.
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Breezy (gdog)
What!? Here is the link to the post he's talking about.
http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewtopic.php?t=1496
It was a user that called it the milde ride not these so called insiders.
I just started using MoRich ( Awesome Hook and Awesome Revs) and I like what I see thus far from the two.
Post by: Guined on December 03, 2010, 10:54:08 PM
The big problem I see is most people don't truly understand ball motion and what is happening on the lane. This includes a lot of ball drillers as well.
If a ball driller doesn't take the time truly match a ball with their customers game. They can make a great ball from any brand look like crap in a hurry.
I actally never drilled a MoRich ball until earlier thus year. I wanted to support Mo because of all good he does for the industry by educating the people who want to learn.
I'm very glad I made that decision. If you truly want to learn visit bowlingchat.net
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Rick Guined
Owner/Operator: New Millennium Proshop, LLC
Ebonite Gold Pro Shop Member
Vise PBA Regional Staff Player
IBPSIA Advanced Certified Technician
USBC Bronze Certified Instructor
www.viseinserts.com
Post by: J_Mac on December 04, 2010, 04:59:24 AM
The Perpetual Motion is a symmetric core that even Mo admits is a "retread" but it's never been in a ball with a "super" coverstock. The cover on this ball is what really makes it versatile.
Post by: chatnboy on February 15, 2011, 12:07:39 AM
'if" the pro shops would do more than just drill up a ball the way the customers want...then we would "not" be having this discussion!!!!!how many times have you seen people just get balls drilled up without the pro shop guy watching him/her bowl to find out if they are throwing the ball correctly or throwing the ball so flawed no matter what ball they throw it would be a turd!!!!when you have a truly professional pro shop and a guy who cares more about the customer than the customer's money you will find the customer happy and the pro shop happy!!!too many pro shops are just taking money instead of educating the bowling public!!!
Go hard or go home!!!!!Bowl your best...ALWAYS!!!
Post by: Also Sprach Zaruthstra on May 12, 2011, 09:38:42 PM
Post by: kidlost2000 on May 12, 2011, 10:42:15 PM
Morich equipment on average should cost less then EBI from all the prices I've seen. As far as proshops being "pro"shops that is a whole other story. Our local centers proshops have two layouts, pin up and pin down. Weight hole location is based off of putting a hole where ever. It is amazing how little time and thought goes into drilling for the customer.
That is why my brother and I got our own setup and learned everything we could about drilling and drilling layouts. He already had proshop experience and we were able to learn a lot more from there.
Be good, or be good at it.
Post by: jls on August 21, 2012, 11:11:02 AM
starting with the LevRG the huge market for these balls were how you could drill them and they be totally different with different layouts. Watch any of the videos on their site and you'll see 2 of whatever ball one strong one weak to show how different reaction you can get with the same ball with different layouts.... your ave joe blow customer isn't goin to be buying 2 high end of the same ball 99% of the time. Combine the sensitivity of the layout to alot of pro shop operators that don't take the time to measure tilt/rotation/PAP and you get balls reacting a way the customer didn't want, thus a "DUD" just my theory about why these balls are not as popular.BINGO we have a winner here....Simply put, Morich tends to make 2+2=4 the hard way...
--------------------
The Bowler's Edge Pro Shop
They want you to take 32 and divide it by 2 to= 16...Then add 4 to=20, then divide that by 5 to = 4..
When most pro shops already know that 2+2 will = 4...
drawing all those lines all over the ball... Come on, that was a little over kill...
Most pro shops simply Don't have the time to spend an hour laying out and drilling a ball...
Not in today's ECONOMY...
Sure if you are drilling a ball for Joe Pro Tour, maybe...But lets get real here...
Most bowlers are not Joe pro's...
You can fit them and properly lay out a ball for them in less time...
Many drillers I have talked too all said pretty much the same thing...
Morich makes it way to complicated...
and that is why so MANY shops stop carrying them...
Now I'm sure someone will come on and say you need to take three days to properly lay out a ball..."Cause that's the way my guy does it" IN HIS BASEMENT... :D ;) :)
You must watch the bowler eat drink and sleep to make sure you have his PAP...Then you must drill him a plastic ball to make sure his PAP is right...
Then you must watch him bowl for 6 hours so you can see his style...
And then and only then can you drill him a ball...
Which you may make $25-$50 on....
Get real already
For all you people who think a pro shop needs to spend HOURS to properly
drill your ball...Why don't you open a pro shop and DO THAT...
And get back to US on how well you are doing...
Cause "AIN'T" no way you will survive drilling one ball in six hours...
while making about $30-$50 on it...
Talk is CHEAP...
So chop chop... Open a shop, order Morich balls and get back to us with
a progress report...
Ya like that will ever happen... :) ;) ;D
Talk is cheap... :D :)
Post by: Doug Sterner on September 08, 2012, 08:30:20 PM
Layout, surface, weighthole placement, ball speed, axis rotation, axis tilt and rev rate matter more when the ball has a stronger core. So this is where MoRich got the "touchy" monicker.
I have been fortunate to have had some coaching by Mo himself over the last 2 years and he has given me some layouts to use on certain balls and all were spot on as long as I did my part as a bowler. Get slow, overrotate the ball, miss your mark or similar and the ball will not perform as intended. That is reason #1 for MoRich not becoming more mainstream.... reason #2 is the fact that far too many pro shops exist that won't take the time to check the bowler's specs and drill the ball accordingly to maximize the ball's reaction and performance..
Post by: Rightycomplex on September 08, 2012, 09:56:59 PM
Morich bowling is still around and making good pieces. The Locomotion is a really good symmetrical ball that hooks in the backend and has been selling well since it came out. The Hookr is a great asym for you heavier oiled THS. Mo doesnt feel the need to flood the market the "mix and match." Also, while other companies only have to focus on their company, Morich does work with the USBC and other companies in ball testing and technology. The Determinator keeps ball companies honest because before 2005 (the determinators release) companies were coming out with balls outside of high and Low rg pin specs set by USBC (i believe 1" for the pin and 1.25 for the mb). He also fought against the "label" rule of drilling that was going to be set by USBC to have all balls drilled pretty much label leverage. Not to mention coaching, pattern and lane machine testing and tuning, seminars for pro shop technicians, I'd say the man and company are pretty busy and dont really have to make a lot of balls to be successful. Mo's equipment are not hard to drill. Im a novice driller. Ive driller a Ravage (have one of the best reactions ive ever seen) and have had a mojave and a colossus solid which all rolled well. His equipment doesnt give bowlers the boomerang reaction they seek but a earlier, smoother and readable look that makes adjustments easier to make. We can go on and on but the morich does a lot behind the scenes that people just dont know about.
starting with the LevRG the huge market for these balls were how you could drill them and they be totally different with different layouts. Watch any of the videos on their site and you'll see 2 of whatever ball one strong one weak to show how different reaction you can get with the same ball with different layouts.... your ave joe blow customer isn't goin to be buying 2 high end of the same ball 99% of the time. Combine the sensitivity of the layout to alot of pro shop operators that don't take the time to measure tilt/rotation/PAP and you get balls reacting a way the customer didn't want, thus a "DUD" just my theory about why these balls are not as popular.BINGO we have a winner here....Simply put, Morich tends to make 2+2=4 the hard way...
--------------------
The Bowler's Edge Pro Shop
They want you to take 32 and divide it by 2 to= 16...Then add 4 to=20, then divide that by 5 to = 4..
When most pro shops already know that 2+2 will = 4...
drawing all those lines all over the ball... Come on, that was a little over kill...
Most pro shops simply Don't have the time to spend an hour laying out and drilling a ball...
Not in today's ECONOMY...
Sure if you are drilling a ball for Joe Pro Tour, maybe...But lets get real here...
Most bowlers are not Joe pro's...
You can fit them and properly lay out a ball for them in less time...
Many drillers I have talked too all said pretty much the same thing...
Morich makes it way to complicated...
and that is why so MANY shops stop carrying them...
Now I'm sure someone will come on and say you need to take three days to properly lay out a ball..."Cause that's the way my guy does it" IN HIS BASEMENT... :D ;) :)
You must watch the bowler eat drink and sleep to make sure you have his PAP...Then you must drill him a plastic ball to make sure his PAP is right...
Then you must watch him bowl for 6 hours so you can see his style...
And then and only then can you drill him a ball...
Which you may make $25-$50 on....
Get real already
For all you people who think a pro shop needs to spend HOURS to properly
drill your ball...Why don't you open a pro shop and DO THAT...
And get back to US on how well you are doing...
Cause "AIN'T" no way you will survive drilling one ball in six hours...
while making about $30-$50 on it...
Talk is CHEAP...
So chop chop... Open a shop, order Morich balls and get back to us with
a progress report...
Ya like that will ever happen... :) ;) ;D
Talk is cheap... :D :)
Post by: jls on September 13, 2012, 01:19:10 PM
hadn't been a post since MAY...
In my area, the interest in their balls has gone way down...
Why is that??? I don't know...
But I do know what I hear from other shop owners...
In today's tough economy, pro shops can't afford to spend hours fitting someone
for a ball and make less than $50...
People on this site have said OVER AN OVER....Did your guy see you bowl, did
he drill you a plastic ball to get your PAP... After drilling did he go out on the lanes and watch you bowl 6 games...Did his daughter wash your car while
his wife made you lunch...
Cause if he didn't, then "run run to another shop"
People on this site are clueless when it comes to running a pro shop...
Most pro shops I know of, do a good job fitting the customer to the right
ball...But there is only so much time any REAL PRO SHOP can spend on
a customer...and stay in business...
You are right when you or others say some shops don't want to bother with
some of these high tech drilling's...
But most shops DO INDEED KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING...
And it's tough to have to deal with KEYBOARD POUNDERS who come on
this site while at work and try to pretend they are ball drillers...
Shooting an honor score does not make ONE a BOWLER...
Not in today's world of bowling...
Keyboard Pounders read something online that they really don't fully understand and think they know more than a professional driller...
My all time favorite is when they come in and ask for a ball to snap hard on
HEAVY OIL...
Now once again, this is no knock on Morich...However it does appear that their
sales are not what they were a few years back...
I guess most pro shops prefer the KISS method...
Cause you really can't afford to spend hours on one ball and make MAYBE
$50...Keyboard Pounders expect to get paid...And they spend most of their
days surfing the net on company time...
And what they don't understand is, You can layout a ball the same without
all the extra toppings...And have the ball perform...
This isn't Rocket Science...
BTW, Glad to see that one or two Morich fans actually responded...
Cause there were ZERO responses since May...
And I don't want to hear that it was summer....Cause most of the other sites
have had daily responses...
So Morich people, get out there and order a Morich ball...
and make sure your GUY watches you bowl before during and after...
And all for about $25....
now
have a nice day
Post by: Impending Doom on September 13, 2012, 01:47:38 PM
Post by: Bowl_Freak on September 13, 2012, 07:16:24 PM
Post by: RyanHelme on September 14, 2012, 04:00:27 PM
Just my thoughts... but I had to give up bowling a few years ago do to being diagnosed with two severe disease...
-RyanHelme aka (IceEmQuick on the old ballreviews)
Post by: kidlost2000 on September 14, 2012, 04:23:15 PM
(Pound keys here)
Having a general idea of the bowlers style and ability goes along ways in laying out a bowling ball for someone. The dual angle method literally takes a minute to do laying out a ball. Yes there are 5 total lines vs 1 but it is like connect the dots and literally takes a minute to do.
I agree the bowling balls today literally are idiot proof. Still taking the extra minute or two to make sure and know the bowlers pap and style of bowling before drilling said idiot proof ball is not asking too much.
As mentioned earlier, your options in most places are 1) pin up 2) pin down
Post by: Bowl_Freak on September 14, 2012, 04:29:53 PM
Post by: Bowl_Freak on September 14, 2012, 04:48:09 PM
Post by: Impending Doom on September 14, 2012, 05:05:27 PM
Post by: scotts33 on September 14, 2012, 07:45:10 PM
My belief like most equipment if the local driller is into offering different companies then you will see smaller brands if not then you won't. In my area Madison, WI there are some MoRich users but overall it is a Storm town mainly because of riggs who helps promote the brand locally.
Post by: Bowl_Freak on September 15, 2012, 07:57:53 AM
Post by: jls on September 15, 2012, 10:38:57 AM
JLS the big proshop guy is now saying the the dual angle method is too much work? And the proshop guy shouldn't watch you throw the ball to help get an idea on how he may want to drill the ball for you? I'm assuming that is because you don't need to know their PAP is why? Ouch!!!! Hard to speak up for your shop and all your "services" when you choose not to do the bare minimum for the "customer" who is paying for the "experience" you speak of.Actually you are putting words into my mouth... Never said that...What I said
(Pound keys here)
Having a general idea of the bowlers style and ability goes along ways in laying out a bowling ball for someone. The dual angle method literally takes a minute to do laying out a ball. Yes there are 5 total lines vs 1 but it is like connect the dots and literally takes a minute to do.
I agree the bowling balls today literally are idiot proof. Still taking the extra minute or two to make sure and know the bowlers pap and style of bowling before drilling said idiot proof ball is not asking too much.
As mentioned earlier, your options in most places are 1) pin up 2) pin down
was that the consumer expects a pro shop to spend HOURS drilling one ball...
And that is not possible if one is in a SHOP...Now maybe for guys like you that
work out of your garage that's OK...You don't pay rent...
Try opening a shop and pay rent and get back to me with how spending Hours to drill a ball works out...
It's people like you that give REAL pro shops a bad name...And CERTAIN companies that SELL to you even tho you are not a pro shop, are not helping...
Reading is a skill...I said clearly a real pro shop can fit and drill a ball under 4 hours...
You come on and make Keyboard Pounders think that they are getting screwed by real pro shops if they don't spend BOO KOO hours drilling their ball and charge only $25...Like you basement ball drillers do...
And I never said it took too long to lay a ball out...what I said was the
consumer thinks it should take a shop hours to lay out and drill a ball...and all for less than $50..
Open a real shop and lets see how much time you take...
Until then STFU....
nice try, trying to TWIST AND TURN what I posted...
Now why don't you come on and post how you are able to buy all of the
packages Ebonite sells...Track, Hammer, Columbia and Ebonite...EVEN
THO YOU ARE NOT A PRO SHOP....
LIKE YOU HAVE DONE MANY TIMES IN THE PAST...
LIKE I SAID, IT'S BASEMENT BALL DRILLERS LIKE YOU THAT GIVE REAL
PRO SHOPS A BLACK EYE...
Now I couldn't help but notice that THERE WERE NO POST ON THIS SITE SINCE
MAY...TIL I POSTED...
I'M SO GLAD THAT I WOKE UP ALL YOU MORICH GUYS...
AT LEAST YOU ARE NOW POSTING...
my work here is done...
Post by: Rightycomplex on September 15, 2012, 11:27:16 AM
JLS the big proshop guy is now saying the the dual angle method is too much work? And the proshop guy shouldn't watch you throw the ball to help get an idea on how he may want to drill the ball for you? I'm assuming that is because you don't need to know their PAP is why? Ouch!!!! Hard to speak up for your shop and all your "services" when you choose not to do the bare minimum for the "customer" who is paying for the "experience" you speak of.Actually you are putting words into my mouth... Never said that...What I said
(Pound keys here)
Having a general idea of the bowlers style and ability goes along ways in laying out a bowling ball for someone. The dual angle method literally takes a minute to do laying out a ball. Yes there are 5 total lines vs 1 but it is like connect the dots and literally takes a minute to do.
I agree the bowling balls today literally are idiot proof. Still taking the extra minute or two to make sure and know the bowlers pap and style of bowling before drilling said idiot proof ball is not asking too much.
As mentioned earlier, your options in most places are 1) pin up 2) pin down
was that the consumer expects a pro shop to spend HOURS drilling one ball...
And that is not possible if one is in a SHOP...Now maybe for guys like you that
work out of your garage that's OK...You don't pay rent...
Try opening a shop and pay rent and get back to me with how spending Hours to drill a ball works out...
It's people like you that give REAL pro shops a bad name...And CERTAIN companies that SELL to you even tho you are not a pro shop, are not helping...
Reading is a skill...I said clearly a real pro shop can fit and drill a ball under 4 hours...
You come on and make Keyboard Pounders think that they are getting screwed by real pro shops if they don't spend BOO KOO hours drilling their ball and charge only $25...Like you basement ball drillers do...
And I never said it took too long to lay a ball out...what I said was the
consumer thinks it should take a shop hours to lay out and drill a ball...and all for less than $50..
Open a real shop and lets see how much time you take...
Until then STFU....
nice try, trying to TWIST AND TURN what I posted...
Now why don't you come on and post how you are able to buy all of the
packages Ebonite sells...Track, Hammer, Columbia and Ebonite...EVEN
THO YOU ARE NOT A PRO SHOP....
LIKE YOU HAVE DONE MANY TIMES IN THE PAST...
LIKE I SAID, IT'S BASEMENT BALL DRILLERS LIKE YOU THAT GIVE REAL
PRO SHOPS A BLACK EYE...
Now I couldn't help but notice that THERE WERE NO POST ON THIS SITE SINCE
MAY...TIL I POSTED...
I'M SO GLAD THAT I WOKE UP ALL YOU MORICH GUYS...
AT LEAST YOU ARE NOW POSTING...
my work here is done...
JLS,
Not attacking you by any means but....... what are you talking about? Who comes into your shop and demands a 4 hour fitting? You said that the dual angle method had too many lines. No, it really doesnt. You said using his method of fitting takes 4 hours, Takes 5 mins to fit. 5 mins to drill. Trim up and the customers out the door. Besides that, no customer wants to spend 4 hours in a pro shop. Im not a morich guy but Mo Pinel frequents my home shop and hes always teaching or explaining or clarifying to help guys like myself who want to make the pro shop into a means of putting food on the table. I just dont exactly understand what your gripe is. Again, not attacking, just need clarification
Post by: jls on September 15, 2012, 12:12:57 PM
pro shop doesn't spend time watching them bowl both before and after they
feel the pro shop is not giving them good service...
Basement ball drillers on this site like to post..."if your pro shop guy doesn't
watch you bowl, take forever to lay a ball out, have his daughter wash your car
and have his wife make you lunch, and all for $25...Then you are not getting good service"....
It doesn't take a driller that long to lay out a ball, if he's knows what he is
doing...
Now in the big city with the tall bulidings very few pro shops can take
hours to drill a ball...And do it for $25 profit the way basement ball drillings
like to claim is proper...
Yesterday I waited on 27 customer's...in a 10 hour day...Drilling new balls,
taking in plugs, polishing balls, etc etc etc...Did not sell 27 balls...Waited
on 27 customers!!!!!
Doing the math, there is no way a shop can afford to take hours to drill a ball
and wait on their customers...This does not mean the shop is short changing
anyone...Most balls can be fitted and drilled in about 30 minutes or so...
Now this Kid person loves to knock real pro shops...He loves to brag about
how CHEAP he can buys Ebonite balls for...And he leads people on
this site to think that pro shops are OVER Charging them...
This is not true... Most shops barely make $50-$60 on the sale of a ball...
Now it is true that some pro shops feel using the dual angle takes too much
time...But that is simply not true...As someone said you can lay a ball out in
about a minute to two...
Now I'm heading to the golf course... :D
have a nice day
Post by: Rightycomplex on September 15, 2012, 04:42:26 PM
starting with the LevRG the huge market for these balls were how you could drill them and they be totally different with different layouts. Watch any of the videos on their site and you'll see 2 of whatever ball one strong one weak to show how different reaction you can get with the same ball with different layouts.... your ave joe blow customer isn't goin to be buying 2 high end of the same ball 99% of the time. Combine the sensitivity of the layout to alot of pro shop operators that don't take the time to measure tilt/rotation/PAP and you get balls reacting a way the customer didn't want, thus a "DUD" just my theory about why these balls are not as popular.BINGO we have a winner here....Simply put, Morich tends to make 2+2=4 the hard way...
--------------------
The Bowler's Edge Pro Shop
They want you to take 32 and divide it by 2 to= 16...Then add 4 to=20, then divide that by 5 to = 4..
When most pro shops already know that 2+2 will = 4...
drawing all those lines all over the ball... Come on, that was a little over kill...
Most pro shops simply Don't have the time to spend an hour laying out and drilling a ball...
Not in today's ECONOMY...
Sure if you are drilling a ball for Joe Pro Tour, maybe...But lets get real here...
Most bowlers are not Joe pro's...
You can fit them and properly lay out a ball for them in less time...
Many drillers I have talked too all said pretty much the same thing...
Morich makes it way to complicated...
and that is why so MANY shops stop carrying them...
Now I'm sure someone will come on and say you need to take three days to properly lay out a ball..."Cause that's the way my guy does it" IN HIS BASEMENT... :D ;) :)
You must watch the bowler eat drink and sleep to make sure you have his PAP...Then you must drill him a plastic ball to make sure his PAP is right...
Then you must watch him bowl for 6 hours so you can see his style...
And then and only then can you drill him a ball...
Which you may make $25-$50 on....
Get real already
For all you people who think a pro shop needs to spend HOURS to properly
drill your ball...Why don't you open a pro shop and DO THAT...
And get back to US on how well you are doing...
Cause "AIN'T" no way you will survive drilling one ball in six hours...
while making about $30-$50 on it...
Talk is CHEAP...
So chop chop... Open a shop, order Morich balls and get back to us with
a progress report...
Ya like that will ever happen... :) ;) ;D
Talk is cheap... :D :)
Not putting a word in your mouth, just going off what i read. Consumers are led to believe that your driller should be able to map out a reaction for them not spend a lot of time fitting and drilling them a ball. Most customers dont want to be in the pro shop any longer than they have to. If the driller has never seen the bowler, then yes he should watch a shot or 2 to get a make up or get a pap, tilt, etc; or at the least map their stats off a tracked ball. You cant blame the customer for wanting a drillers undivided attention in going through the process of drilling a ball they're going to spend $200 dollars on. They are intrusting the driller give them the best possible reaction and fit for what they pay for.
I dont know what you and KID have going on and thats none of my business. Just again going off what i read.
Post by: kidlost2000 on September 15, 2012, 05:26:29 PM
They want you to take 32 and divide it by 2 to= 16...Then add 4 to=20, then divide that by 5 to = 4..
When most pro shops already know that 2+2 will = 4...
drawing all those lines all over the ball... Come on, that was a little over kill...
Most pro shops simply Don't have the time to spend an hour laying out and drilling a ball...
Not in today's ECONOMY...
You can fit them and properly lay out a ball for them in less time...
Many drillers I have talked too all said pretty much the same thing...
Morich makes it way to complicated...
and that is why so MANY shops stop carrying them...
Not putting words in your mouth but what you said seems to be that dual angle is basically overkill and that apparently people stopped carrying Morich balls because of the drill instructions that are included in the box being too complicated???
So these shops can't ignore a drill sheet and drill the ball how they normally do or are they too slow to understand the basics of another layout method? You also said that taking an hour to layout and drill a ball is too long.
So how long does it take you to layout and drill said ball for someone?
You can find a bowlers pap if you don't already know it in a matter of minutes then use the dual angle or other methods to layout said ball and drill it. So literally taking your normal drill time and adding 5 minutes is too long for your customers?
I'm not suggesting nor reading on here anyone saying take 3 plus hours to layout and drill a ball. Literally an extra 5-10 minutes if you don't know a bowlers style or pap on top of your normal drill time is very little to ask.
Since I drill for me and me only and get great service every time I guess I am giving brick and mortar shops a bad name. At least I know I will get what I want and have it done right. I still get all the great EBI packs when need for resale in case your wondering. I don't discourage anyone from buying at their local shop. If you dont like their service you should go elsewhere. The biggest mark up in any business is in accessories not the main product. If you can get a better deal online I say go for it.
EBI also has a great product you should love for laying out bowling balls in their Blueprint program. It is all that overkill you love from your favorite pro brick and mortar company.
I would never own a proshop or any business in this economy and salute those who do. To suggest the consumer doesn't deserve the extra time when needed is absurd and you are the one making your business look bad by saying as much. Apply that to any other business you go to and see if you would continue giving them your service if they said:
"sorry we could have done it better with an extra 5-10 minutes but we chose not to."
Post by: kidlost2000 on September 16, 2012, 06:04:51 PM
This guy sums it up in the first 30 seconds of the first video
http://ebonite.com/video/video_detail/finding_your_pap/
http://ebonite.com/video/video_detail/creating_layouts/
Post by: Impending Doom on September 17, 2012, 12:07:42 PM
After that, I didn't have to spend all that much time with them when they wanted something else. It went something like this. "Ball A you drilled me is great, but I want something else, to fill a hole in my bag." How about Ball B? "If you think that's the best choice, put holes in it."
Customers deserve your time. Now, if you work in a standalone shop, you're limited. Nice part is you don't have to worry about the center, but the bad part is that you don't have to worry about the center. It's a double edged sword.
Post by: jls on September 17, 2012, 02:37:15 PM
You don't have to spend however many hours that jls stated on a customer to make them feel like they're getting a good deal. I used to spend an hour with the customer the first time, take them on the lane, let them warm up while i did something else in the shop, watch what their equipment was doing, discuss what they wanted, go back in the shop, pick a ball, choose a layout, and away we went. In that hours, I got his pap, showed that he was important to me as a customer, got a good read on what the guy wanted, and lined him up with the best ball I could recommend.Customer's deserve enough time to get the job done right...
After that, I didn't have to spend all that much time with them when they wanted something else. It went something like this. "Ball A you drilled me is great, but I want something else, to fill a hole in my bag." How about Ball B? "If you think that's the best choice, put holes in it."
Customers deserve your time. Now, if you work in a standalone shop, you're limited. Nice part is you don't have to worry about the center, but the bad part is that you don't have to worry about the center. It's a double edged sword.
Just because some shops may prefer to use Storm's layouts or Ebonite's layouts does
not mean they are not taking enough time with the customer's...
So MANY times on this site we see some basement ball driller saying things like...
"if your guy doesn't take you out on the lanes" "If your guy doesn't find your PAP"
If your guy doesn't fit and drill your ball with inserts, slugs and a free lunch"
etc etc etc...
What these basement ball drillers are doing is telling the keyboard Pounders that
they are getting screwed by pro shop..."my guy drills me a new ball for $25 with slugs and inserts and he watches me bowl 6 games"etc etc etc...
And then when they go to a pro shop and the charge may be $40-$50 to drill a ball...
They feel cheated...
Now what Doom said is pretty accurate...The new customer will indeed take more
time to pick out a ball, lay it out and adjust...45 minutes to an hour may be what
it requires...What may take the longest time is making sure you give the customer
the right ball for the condition...Once a customer realizes that you want to be
sure you sold him the right ball, you will gain his trust...
And that is how some pro shops manage to stay in business...
It's called "word of mouth"...
Post by: jls on September 17, 2012, 02:46:38 PM
JLS QUOTES:THIS IS JUST PLAIN SILLY...
Most pro shops simply Don't have the time to spend an hour laying out and drilling a ball...<<<THIS IS TRUE... the whole process of
helping the customer pick out an ball, fitted them, laying it out, telling them
how you are laying it out and why, drilling the ball and adjusting it, should take
about 45 minutes to an hour...
Not in today's ECONOMY...VERY TRUE...
You can fit them and properly lay out a ball for them in less time...YES
Many drillers I have talked too all said pretty much the same thing...
Morich makes it way to complicated...
and that is why so MANY shops stop carrying them...YES THIS IS WHAT I HAVE HEARD AND SEEN...
Not putting words in your mouth but what you said seems to be that dual angle is basically overkill and that apparently people stopped carrying Morich balls because of the drill instructions that are included in the box being too complicated???<<<AGAIN THIS MAY BE TRUE...FOR SOME SHOPS, NOT ALL...
You also said that taking an hour to layout and drill a ball is too long. YES... YOUR REPEATING YOURSELF
So how long does it take you to layout and drill said ball for someone? You should be able to discuss what condition they need a ball for, fit them and lay it out and drill in about 45 minutes to 1 Hour...
I'm not suggesting nor reading on here anyone saying take 3 plus hours to layout and drill a ball. Literally an extra 5-10 minutes if you don't know a bowlers style or pap on top of your normal drill time is very little to ask. NO NOT LAYING OUT... WATCHING THEM BOWL FOR A HALF HOUR BEFORE AND MAYBE A HALF HOUR AFTERWARDS...
AND ALL OF THIS FOR $25...
Since I drill for me and me only and get great service every time I guess I am giving brick and mortar shops a bad name. At least I know I will get what I want and have it done right. I still get all the great EBI packs when need for resale in case your wondering. I don't discourage anyone from buying at their local shop. If you dont like their service you should go elsewhere. The biggest mark up in any business is in accessories not the main product. If you can get a better deal online I say go for it. YET YOU ARE NOT A PRO SHOP...
EBI also has a great product you should love for laying out bowling balls in their Blueprint program. It is all that overkill you love from your favorite pro brick and mortar company.
I would never own a proshop or any business in this economy and salute those who do. To suggest the consumer doesn't deserve the extra time when needed is absurd and you are the one making your business look bad by saying as much. Apply that to any other business you go to and see if you would continue giving them your service if they said: no one suggested that... but WATCHING SOMEONE BOWL FOR HOURS IS A BIT OUT OF LINE, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY HEAR, "MY GUY CHARGES $25"
"sorry we could have done it better with an extra 5-10 minutes but we chose not to."
Bottom line, leading people to believe that they can only get a good FIT is
by having someone spend hours watching you bowl is out of line...
That's called LESSONS...
Buying a ball and Lessons are two separate things...
And feeding their heads with "my guy drills for $25, and that includes slugs
and inserts and lunch" YA RIGHT... Makes real
pro shops look bad...If we don't serve lunch...
Now can you tell all of us JUST HOW YOU ARE ABLE TO GET ALL THOSE SAMPLE PACKS FROM EBONITE, EVEN THO YOU ARE NOT A PRO SHOP...
Now Kid, we have been thru this before...You are ANTI PRO SHOP...
Now I'm done talking with you...
But sure glad to see people posting again on this site...
Post by: kidlost2000 on September 17, 2012, 05:09:45 PM
I think a proshop should make what ever profit they can make when selling their equipment. Not $25 a ball or less. I also agree with the EBI vid that when your drilling a bowling ball for someone you should use their pap to layout the ball, if it is dual angle, storms method or what ever. Too many shops simply go with the pin up or pin down from the ring finger method for everything they drill and assume it will be roughly 4-5.5" from the bowlers pap and that should be good enough for every bowler.
I disagree with that and would expect more if it was me buying a ball from them. So I will stay with what I said originally, that an extra 5-10 minutes to find a bowlers pap and watch them bowl prior to drilling is not asking too much. If you have their information already on file, then you've done your job and it wouldn't be necessary.
I only enjoy telling you about those great EBI packs or seed balls because of how much you bragged on EBI for going after internet dealers and for standing up for brick and mortar shops and not selling to just anyone. When like everyone else a sale is a sale and they will whore their products to anyone that will buy. Which is why they are back at all internet sites and still selling to non brick and mortar shops. I only bought one of the packs this time around from Track because it was the only one worth selling.
Post by: HankScorpio on September 18, 2012, 03:45:02 PM
Post by: kidlost2000 on September 18, 2012, 04:17:44 PM
So when laying out a ball you have an angle, then you measure what distance you want the pin to be from your pap, then you have another angle and that is it. The chart shows you generally what effect the bigger or smaller the first angle effect will have, along with the pin to pap distance, then the effects of the bigger or smaller second angle.
Post by: Rightycomplex on September 18, 2012, 06:00:18 PM
Ex.
Bowler A comes in and likes the look of bowler B's ball and wants the same layout. The driller can duplicate the layout in relevance to the bowlers PAP's and give them the same reaction look on the lanes.
The big thing to remember is that ex. a 60x4x30 layout will look different from bowler to bowler. For bowler A,it might put the pin above the bridge whereas bowler B's might end up 1" to the right or left of ring finger. Its relevant to the bowlers PAP.
Now I will agree with JLS on one thing, not having to use the dual angle method for all bowlers. New bowlers( meaning conventional gripped) or people just looking to have fun, the driller will not really have to use the dual angle method for the simple fact that they are just looking to throw balls and performance is not really a priority. Now when they come in and ask about getting more performance out of a ball because they are ready for more performance, then that is when the driller takes the extra 5 mins to map out stats, maybe see a ball or two and then it 5 mins to layout and drill. Will you always have a boatload of time, No. But thats when you as a businessman or woman have to gauge the situation and maybe have some prioritizing.
Morich is not making it difficult or complicated to drill their balls, they're giving the driller a way to maximize the potential of their equipment. The same as storms system and ebonite with the one.
Post by: kidlost2000 on September 18, 2012, 06:26:13 PM
I also really prefer it for me when I want to drill a few different bowling balls on the exact same pattern I can and know it will be precise.
Post by: Rightycomplex on September 18, 2012, 08:48:09 PM
For ex. 60x4x30 could be a benchmark layout for a lower rev player with the average tilt and axis rotation, but it could be a strong layout for someone high revved and low tilted. As well as be a control layout for someone with a high tilt and larger axis rotation. So we have to be careful in what we determine to go into a ball.
Thats just one layout. For a low rev high tilt player, a driller would want the ball to start up sooner so they might go 30x4x60. Speed also plays a factor. We dont want to confuse who we are drilling for but at the same time, drillers dont want to cut corners. Remember it is a method that is unique to all bowlers.
Post by: kidlost2000 on September 18, 2012, 08:57:22 PM
HS: "Why exactly does MoRich make it too complicated to use thier equipment? You can use any layout system you want to drill the balls, and you can use their system to drill balls for any company. Sure, the ball may be a dud if its drilled wrong, but that is true for literally every ball on the market."
Post by: Bowl_Freak on September 18, 2012, 09:16:59 PM
Post by: Rightycomplex on September 18, 2012, 09:29:04 PM
Check out bowlingchat.net. they have a wiki which has all this info and Mo Pinel frequents the site so he, John P, or MegaMav, along with others, should be able to answer any of your questions. Ill try to rummage throught and find the link to post.
Kid,
True, however thats why i said dont let the bowler know what you're doing. Lol! Try to simplify without oversimplification. If you oversimplified, then you they think they can do it too. Drilling and fitting balls are an acquired craft. If everyone could do it then they would need drillers. Kind of go through the explaination without getting too in depth.
Post by: Rightycomplex on September 18, 2012, 09:36:57 PM
Here's the link to the wiki. All the information and more than youll ever need, lol!
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Proshop_Information#Dual_Angle_Layouts
Post by: kidlost2000 on September 18, 2012, 10:48:22 PM
Post by: Rightycomplex on September 18, 2012, 11:10:26 PM
Well, yes and no. Drill instructions give out a base and they are pretty generic so they fit most bowlers. The DA method expands upon it and gives a more fine-tune layout for that individual bowler and also exposes no-no's for drillers.
Back in the day, drill instructions were the thing and made drilling easy because most balls were symmetric and the driller could do 1 of 3 layouts and (in theory) it would work for everyone. Now we have alot more information and research, so drilling is a bit more involved. Without instructions, everyone who drilled an ebonite the one 3 3/8 stacked would have hated it. Lol!
Post by: kidlost2000 on September 19, 2012, 03:41:27 AM
Wow, imagine that. The Pearl Messenger drilled rev leverage on medium-heavy oil doesnt hook early??? I cant imagine why.
Drill instructions in the box was a bad idea. All companies at that time had nearly identical drill sheets with almost identical layouts. Todays drill sheets are really no different.
Post by: Impending Doom on September 19, 2012, 09:02:04 AM
Someone mentioned a chart on all this. Can u post a link to the chart. I need to really learn how to map stuff out correctly for my game instead of just slapping a drilling on them. IM to old school and need to refresh myself on updated cores/coverstocks and how they would work best for my game. I get lucky every once in a while.
1:30 pin, 1/2 side not working anymore? :p
Post by: Rightycomplex on September 19, 2012, 09:49:48 AM
@kid: while you may not like drill sheets, they've stood the test of time and companies continue to put them in the box. Lol! Just know the customer is always right. If they come in and want drilling 1 then you get them your recommendation and if they still want drilling 1 then you give them drilling 1. Then when the ball pukes at 30 ft and they wonder why their new $200 ball is a paperweight then you can explain that they dont see enough oil and now you have to turn it into an orb to salvage their money.
Post by: Impending Doom on September 19, 2012, 10:29:17 AM
Wrong. When their pap doesn't match up to the pap that they use in the drilling instructions, and they want it to look just like that, either you're going to piss the person off, lose a customer, and get a bad rep, or you can explain that they're just suggested, and that you will drill it personally, for their release, and it may not end up looking like that. Or, if you know that it's not the right drilling for their game, talk to them about why it isn't the best layout for them. If they still insist, drill it for them, but I used to mark on the sheet "Customer demanded layout".
It's the job of the pro shop operator to not let the customer shoot themselves in the foot easily.
For example, I had a guy come into my shop back when internet balls were just starting, and the Orange Piranha was the ball to have. 1 inch pin, 4oz of top. Guy wanted it to go long, snap hard. Told him that the drilling he wanted wasn't possible with the ball.
Another example. Guy came into another shop I ran, was throwing a Puma drilled with the pin next to ring, cg in grip. Wasn't working in the house my shop was in, so he wanted something that hooked lots more. I did drill him up a V2 with a modified rev leverage layout, and dude got mad that I put an extra hole in the ball. "No one else has extra holes in their balls!"
Post by: kidlost2000 on September 19, 2012, 12:17:59 PM
Righty,
Wrong. When their pap doesn't match up to the pap that they use in the drilling instructions, and they want it to look just like that, either you're going to piss the person off, lose a customer, and get a bad rep, or you can explain that they're just suggested, and that you will drill it personally, for their release, and it may not end up looking like that. Or, if you know that it's not the right drilling for their game, talk to them about why it isn't the best layout for them. If they still insist, drill it for them, but I used to mark on the sheet "Customer demanded layout".
It's the job of the pro shop operator to not let the customer shoot themselves in the foot easily.
For example, I had a guy come into my shop back when internet balls were just starting, and the Orange Piranha was the ball to have. 1 inch pin, 4oz of top. Guy wanted it to go long, snap hard. Told him that the drilling he wanted wasn't possible with the ball.
Another example. Guy came into another shop I ran, was throwing a Puma drilled with the pin next to ring, cg in grip. Wasn't working in the house my shop was in, so he wanted something that hooked lots more. I did drill him up a V2 with a modified rev leverage layout, and dude got mad that I put an extra hole in the ball. "No one else has extra holes in their balls!"
Plus 101
Post by: Rightycomplex on September 19, 2012, 01:44:20 PM
Righty,
Wrong. When their pap doesn't match up to the pap that they use in the drilling instructions, and they want it to look just like that, either you're going to piss the person off, lose a customer, and get a bad rep, or you can explain that they're just suggested, and that you will drill it personally, for their release, and it may not end up looking like that. Or, if you know that it's not the right drilling for their game, talk to them about why it isn't the best layout for them. If they still insist, drill it for them, but I used to mark on the sheet "Customer demanded layout".
It's the job of the pro shop operator to not let the customer shoot themselves in the foot easily.
For example, I had a guy come into my shop back when internet balls were just starting, and the Orange Piranha was the ball to have. 1 inch pin, 4oz of top. Guy wanted it to go long, snap hard. Told him that the drilling he wanted wasn't possible with the ball.
Another example. Guy came into another shop I ran, was throwing a Puma drilled with the pin next to ring, cg in grip. Wasn't working in the house my shop was in, so he wanted something that hooked lots more. I did drill him up a V2 with a modified rev leverage layout, and dude got mad that I put an extra hole in the ball. "No one else has extra holes in their balls!"
Post by: JohnP on September 19, 2012, 05:17:45 PM
Quote
Here's the link to the wiki. All the information and more than youll ever need, lol!
Freak -- When you read the procedure in the link already given you, the first 90% or so details how to lay the ball out. Read over it but don't get discouraged if you don't understand all of it. That's primarily for your driller. Near the end there's a section titled "The effective use of DUAL ANGLE Layouts". This is the section that will explain how to select the two angles and pin to PAP distance based on the bowler's specs. Also, another very important part of the total dual angle system is the gradient line balance hole system. This tells you where to place balance holes to affect ball reaction. The link to the index page that contains the information is below. -- JohnP
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=Proshop_Information#Layouts
Post by: Bowl_Freak on September 19, 2012, 05:59:37 PM
Post by: Impending Doom on September 19, 2012, 06:50:42 PM
*blink blink blink*