BallReviews
Equipment Boards => Motiv => Topic started by: J_w73 on February 08, 2016, 04:18:01 PM
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Need opinions for the best heavy oil ball from Motiv. I bought a used Raptor Talon and it just doesn't cut it in oil. I can dull it down and it will be earlier but it isn't any better than any of the other balls I have from Motiv. Cover is odd that it doesn't really dull down that much, even when I sand it to 500 grit. Seems to shine right back up rather quickly.
I threw someone's Jackal and it seemed like it hooked more on oil when my other balls weren't moving..
Right now I think that is what I am going to try.
What about the Revolt Havoc? I heard that ball is like a Storm Marvel S.
Or The Jackal Carnage, how is that ball different than the Jackal?
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CARNAGE!!!!
The original Jackal is a pearl believe it or not. The Carnage is an oil lovin beast.
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The Revolt Havoc is symmetrical versus the Jackal line being asymmetric.
The Jackal line will most likely provide more movement in oil for most bowlers. This can depend on how the bowler matches up to asymmetric cores. The original Jackal is a sanded pearl and will provide more length than the Jackal Carnage which is a sanded solid.
If you want a similar comparison to other companies like Storm, here is where I feel they compare:
Jackal Carnage - Lock
Jackal - Crux Pearl
Revolt Havoc - somewhere between the IQ Nano and Marvel S
I am not sure the Jackal Carnage will have the strength of the Alpha Crux, but we will see soon.
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Thank you for the comparisons.
What ball handles oil but still covers the most boards? From what I have seen from the Jackal Carnage, it isn't going to have a ton of backend. I'm actually more impressed with the motion of the original Jackal. My problem is heavy oil stuff that actually hooks more for everyone else, just hooks earlier and smoother for me.
Right now the Venom Shock or the Covert Revolt would be the balls I have that handle the most oil and have some overall movement. The Shock handles less oil ,but still some, and has a bigger movement than the Covert. The Covert is earlier, smoother, and less backend.
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My Revolt Havoc handled enough oil and had some decent move on the backend. Not going to handle as much oil as the Carnage, but unless you see a BP oil spill, the Revolt Havoc is going to handle enough oil for what you are going to run into.
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My Revolt Havoc handled enough oil and had some decent move on the backend. Not going to handle as much oil as the Carnage, but unless you see a BP oil spill, the Revolt Havoc is going to handle enough oil for what you are going to run into.
What shape difference do you see between the Havoc and the Carnage?
Do you have the Venom Shock? Which would be closest to the Shock shape but on heavier volume?
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Any comment on the Cruel C51 or the Cruel Intent? I might be able to get a good deal on one of these. Is the Cruel Intent the same cover as the Primal Rage? Fusion Pearl Reactive.
I have the Primal Rage and it isn't the ball I though it would be either. Can't find the right surface and condition to use it on. When I go duller it is too early, not clean enough and not enough backend, but when I go shinier it skids too much in oil but still doesn't have the backend I thought it would have. This is from 4000 polished, to just knocking the shine off with a 4000 pad by hand.
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From the sounds of your ball experiences with some Motiv equipment, it MAY be a possibility that you just doesn't match up to their equipment :-\
Maybe you need to find another similar to the shape and motions the Motiv offers..... Just a thought.
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Some companies we just don't have the match-up with the cover/core combination no matter the layout, or surface.
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I agree with Lefty. Sometimes someone just doesn't match with companies for reason X or reason Y.
With that said, the Shock is pretty tame (for me). I had the Tag and Forza as more ball than the Shock but under the Havoc.
Don't try to fit a square peg into a round hole. Take what is given and go with it for a ball reaction.
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Thanks for clarifying....... That's exactly what I was getting at.
I throw Storm, Roto Grip. DV8, and Motiv, and Motiv's equipment for me is later and smoother than even Dv8 which is roller and more continues than even Motiv for me. But when I need smoother and versatility, Motiv is where it's at for me. :)
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why not go the Motiv web site click on fourm and ask the Motiv guys. Be ready to give your stats and what oil pattern you are playing on they have been very good at answering questions if you can provide the information they ask.
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I'm quickly becoming a Motiv fan myself.
I've had the Revolt awhile now and it does great in the oil.
Once the lanes open up, it becomes very unpredictable.
Lately I've run up against oil that holds back my Revolt so I added the Carnage.
I have them drilled identically, but there is a little difference in how they turn the corner. Even so, they seem to pair up nicely.
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Any comment on the Cruel C51 or the Cruel Intent? I might be able to get a good deal on one of these. Is the Cruel Intent the same cover as the Primal Rage? Fusion Pearl Reactive.
I have the Primal Rage and it isn't the ball I though it would be either. Can't find the right surface and condition to use it on. When I go duller it is too early, not clean enough and not enough backend, but when I go shinier it skids too much in oil but still doesn't have the backend I thought it would have. This is from 4000 polished, to just knocking the shine off with a 4000 pad by hand.
When you get to the older Motiv equipment, you will find their covers weren't as strong as some of the bigger named manufacturers. The Cruel C51 had the Cruel core which maxed out the differential values allowed by USBC (0.060 diff, 0.030 int). This core was problematic for some if it wasn't drilled accurately for the bowler. The hybrid cover was strong, but not as strong as other strong pieces by other companies.
The Cruel Intent had a different core (Sinister) and was more along the lines of other asymmetrical cores from other manufacturers (0.053 diff, 0.018 int.). The introduction of the Fusion Pearl cover by Motiv was the first time their covers approached the performance of bigger names like Storm and EBI. Since then, their covers have gotten better.
Cruel Intent would probably be better suited for medium-heavy instead of true heavy, while the Cruel C51 would be better suited for medium in my mind (depending on drilling).
I see you have the Venom Shock and Covert Revolt. If you are looking for more movement downlane than your Covert Revolt (similar shape to your Venom Shock) then perhaps the Revolt Vengeance. The cover provides push through the heads and recovers better than the Covert Revolt. Overall strength will be similar to the Covert Revolt, but may appear stronger since the reaction is downlane instead of through the whole lane.
If you want even stronger, then the original Jackal could be an option. Coverstock provides push similar to the Vengeance, but overall will be stronger. Remember, the Covert core (Vanquish) is symmetrical and the Jackal core (Predator) is asymmetrical so the drilling of each will vary slightly.
Good luck!!
P.S. Does your Primal Rage have a balance hole yet? Perhaps strengthening the core with a hole to increase the dynamics will help prevent some of the over/under you are seeing. Another option is to use a lower grit under your polish to get something different. Something like 2000 with polish. And I don't recommend the Motiv Polish. Their cleaner is decent and their Scuff I feel is pretty good.
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From the sounds of your ball experiences with some Motiv equipment, it MAY be a possibility that you just doesn't match up to their equipment :-\
Maybe you need to find another similar to the shape and motions the Motiv offers..... Just a thought.
I always seem to have this problem with stronger equipment, with every brand. I thought it was my low tilt in the past when I was less than 10 degrees. I've gotten my tilt up to 15-17 now and still seem to have the problem. Maybe I am just expecting too much from a ball. I'm really liking the rest of the Motiv equipment. Only two balls I don't really like are the Talon and the Primal Rage.
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why not go the Motiv web site click on fourm and ask the Motiv guys. Be ready to give your stats and what oil pattern you are playing on they have been very good at answering questions if you can provide the information they ask.
Thank you
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Any comment on the Cruel C51 or the Cruel Intent? I might be able to get a good deal on one of these. Is the Cruel Intent the same cover as the Primal Rage? Fusion Pearl Reactive.
I have the Primal Rage and it isn't the ball I though it would be either. Can't find the right surface and condition to use it on. When I go duller it is too early, not clean enough and not enough backend, but when I go shinier it skids too much in oil but still doesn't have the backend I thought it would have. This is from 4000 polished, to just knocking the shine off with a 4000 pad by hand.
When you get to the older Motiv equipment, you will find their covers weren't as strong as some of the bigger named manufacturers. The Cruel C51 had the Cruel core which maxed out the differential values allowed by USBC (0.060 diff, 0.030 int). This core was problematic for some if it wasn't drilled accurately for the bowler. The hybrid cover was strong, but not as strong as other strong pieces by other companies.
The Cruel Intent had a different core (Sinister) and was more along the lines of other asymmetrical cores from other manufacturers (0.053 diff, 0.018 int.). The introduction of the Fusion Pearl cover by Motiv was the first time their covers approached the performance of bigger names like Storm and EBI. Since then, their covers have gotten better.
Cruel Intent would probably be better suited for medium-heavy instead of true heavy, while the Cruel C51 would be better suited for medium in my mind (depending on drilling).
I see you have the Venom Shock and Covert Revolt. If you are looking for more movement downlane than your Covert Revolt (similar shape to your Venom Shock) then perhaps the Revolt Vengeance. The cover provides push through the heads and recovers better than the Covert Revolt. Overall strength will be similar to the Covert Revolt, but may appear stronger since the reaction is downlane instead of through the whole lane.
If you want even stronger, then the original Jackal could be an option. Coverstock provides push similar to the Vengeance, but overall will be stronger. Remember, the Covert core (Vanquish) is symmetrical and the Jackal core (Predator) is asymmetrical so the drilling of each will vary slightly.
Good luck!!
P.S. Does your Primal Rage have a balance hole yet? Perhaps strengthening the core with a hole to increase the dynamics will help prevent some of the over/under you are seeing. Another option is to use a lower grit under your polish to get something different. Something like 2000 with polish. And I don't recommend the Motiv Polish. Their cleaner is decent and their Scuff I feel is pretty good.
thank you for all that info. I did put a weight hole in my Primal Rage. (almost double thumb location) Before the weight hole it did almost nothing for me, which I was surprised at. After the weight hole, it was better but still not great. I thought maybe it was burning up so recently I polished the crap out of it to retain energy. That was too much and just skid down the lane all the way, so I dulled it down with a 4000 pad by hand and that was the first time I saw the ball actually be good. I actually threw a 300 with it. It seemed good for about 2 more sets then wasn't like it was. So maybe I should put it back that surface again....
That being said.. Do Motiv surfaces change quickly from lane play? Also, I have tried to extract oil on many of my balls and have yet to see anything come out? Where is the oil? I can't get any oil out of my covert and it seems to stay shinier than it used to, even after sanding down to a fresh 2000
I think I am going to look into the Jackal. I need to throw my friend's to see how it looks.
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J_w73,
Seems you have had bad luck with the Motiv asymmetricals. Perhaps look to reducing the Pin-PAP distance to help retain your tilt. I used to not have much luck with asyms because they were being drilled like syms.
Wish you luck. Jackal Carnage looks to be pretty strong. I don't have a use for one, but I wish I did.
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J_w73,
Seems you have had bad luck with the Motiv asymmetricals. Perhaps look to reducing the Pin-PAP distance to help retain your tilt. I used to not have much luck with asyms because they were being drilled like syms.
Wish you luck. Jackal Carnage looks to be pretty strong. I don't have a use for one, but I wish I did.
thank you for the tip. I haven't had much success with asymmetricals so I do tend to stick with symmetrical balls. One of the reasons I do like Motiv is that most of their stuff doesn't stand up and roll forward immediately when it hits dry. I have a Rico drilling on my Raptor Talon. Maybe the long pin to PAP is part of the problem. It does still flare a ton though.
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I have a Cruel Intent and imo it's not for heavy oil. I think the Carnage will be a good choice for oil but I haven't found enough to use it. Also, don't forget about the Primal Rage Remix, I find it to be a definite ball up from the Vengence and OG Revolt.
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Performance with lane shine was something they tried to combat with the jackal. There a video where the ball is oil soaked and still performs. Idk about the new carnage, but I am referring to the original. YouTube it!
Best ball for oil has to be the carnage all things aside.. I wouldn't say the havoc as many said its weaker than expected.
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I love my Remix when ever I see oil! I love that ball!!
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In my arsenal I have a Roto Grip Sinister and the Jackal.
These days the Sinister does nothing out there, while the Jackal does something.
Didn't know the Jackal was a pearl. But Motiv say it's made for heavy oil, so there must be something about it that makes it hook on the pattern I play on.
If you have much rev and the other stuff that gives much friction, the ball will hook so much.
A guy who throws without the thumb at the club I'm in threw both the Sinister and the Jackal. Both balls hooked so much that they went from one side to the other. The Sinister hit the 7 pin, the Jackal went into the gutter.
I'm very curious about if he could manage a strike with the Jackal if he stood far left, but the guy has back problems these days. And the other guys who throw without the thumb in the club can't get their fingers in the holes.
I'd try myself but I suck at throwing without the thumb.
At yeasterday's practice I had problems getting the Jackal to hook. Keep in mind that I'm very rev challenged :P
So I moved a few boards to the right (had left foot on the middle or the middle line on the inside of the sole).
Then aimed for the middle of the 1 and 2 mark out there. Got 3-4 strikes in a row that way.
So Monday's match is going to be interesting.
The Carnage is probably better than the original though.
But as I keep telling people, all balls made for heavy oil patterns are great IF you can throw them properly. Good rev and all that other stuff giving the balls more friction.
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In my arsenal I have a Roto Grip Sinister and the Jackal.
These days the Sinister does nothing out there, while the Jackal does something.
Didn't know the Jackal was a pearl. But Motiv say it's made for heavy oil, so there must be something about it that makes it hook on the pattern I play on.
If you have much rev and the other stuff that gives much friction, the ball will hook so much.
A guy who throws without the thumb at the club I'm in threw both the Sinister and the Jackal. Both balls hooked so much that they went from one side to the other. The Sinister hit the 7 pin, the Jackal went into the gutter.
I'm very curious about if he could manage a strike with the Jackal if he stood far left, but the guy has back problems these days. And the other guys who throw without the thumb in the club can't get their fingers in the holes.
I'd try myself but I suck at throwing without the thumb.
At yeasterday's practice I had problems getting the Jackal to hook. Keep in mind that I'm very rev challenged :P
So I moved a few boards to the right (had left foot on the middle or the middle line on the inside of the sole).
Then aimed for the middle of the 1 and 2 mark out there. Got 3-4 strikes in a row that way.
So Monday's match is going to be interesting.
The Carnage is probably better than the original though.
But as I keep telling people, all balls made for heavy oil patterns are great IF you can throw them properly. Good rev and all that other stuff giving the balls more friction.
thanks for the info.. How do you have your Jackal drilled? I talked to a guy that hates the Carnage. He said it hooks at your feet and did nothing at all down lane. I'm sure there wasn't enough oil for it maybe?? I didn't see it, so I'm not sure how it looked. Strong solids tend to not get down the lane for me so that is why I'm leaning toward the Jackal.
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In my arsenal I have a Roto Grip Sinister and the Jackal.
These days the Sinister does nothing out there, while the Jackal does something.
Didn't know the Jackal was a pearl. But Motiv say it's made for heavy oil, so there must be something about it that makes it hook on the pattern I play on.
If you have much rev and the other stuff that gives much friction, the ball will hook so much.
A guy who throws without the thumb at the club I'm in threw both the Sinister and the Jackal. Both balls hooked so much that they went from one side to the other. The Sinister hit the 7 pin, the Jackal went into the gutter.
I'm very curious about if he could manage a strike with the Jackal if he stood far left, but the guy has back problems these days. And the other guys who throw without the thumb in the club can't get their fingers in the holes.
I'd try myself but I suck at throwing without the thumb.
At yeasterday's practice I had problems getting the Jackal to hook. Keep in mind that I'm very rev challenged :P
So I moved a few boards to the right (had left foot on the middle or the middle line on the inside of the sole).
Then aimed for the middle of the 1 and 2 mark out there. Got 3-4 strikes in a row that way.
So Monday's match is going to be interesting.
The Carnage is probably better than the original though.
But as I keep telling people, all balls made for heavy oil patterns are great IF you can throw them properly. Good rev and all that other stuff giving the balls more friction.
thanks for the info.. How do you have your Jackal drilled? I talked to a guy that hates the Carnage. He said it hooks at your feet and did nothing at all down lane. I'm sure there wasn't enough oil for it maybe?? I didn't see it, so I'm not sure how it looked. Strong solids tend to not get down the lane for me so that is why I'm leaning toward the Jackal.
If you are going to be at Travis this weekend, I'll bring my Revolt Havoc and my new Jackyl Carnage. Depending on the pattern Rob puts down, seeing both balls should give you a better idea.
Of course, you are welcome to throw them a few times(if your hand fits).
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In my arsenal I have a Roto Grip Sinister and the Jackal.
These days the Sinister does nothing out there, while the Jackal does something.
Didn't know the Jackal was a pearl. But Motiv say it's made for heavy oil, so there must be something about it that makes it hook on the pattern I play on.
If you have much rev and the other stuff that gives much friction, the ball will hook so much.
A guy who throws without the thumb at the club I'm in threw both the Sinister and the Jackal. Both balls hooked so much that they went from one side to the other. The Sinister hit the 7 pin, the Jackal went into the gutter.
I'm very curious about if he could manage a strike with the Jackal if he stood far left, but the guy has back problems these days. And the other guys who throw without the thumb in the club can't get their fingers in the holes.
I'd try myself but I suck at throwing without the thumb.
At yeasterday's practice I had problems getting the Jackal to hook. Keep in mind that I'm very rev challenged :P
So I moved a few boards to the right (had left foot on the middle or the middle line on the inside of the sole).
Then aimed for the middle of the 1 and 2 mark out there. Got 3-4 strikes in a row that way.
So Monday's match is going to be interesting.
The Carnage is probably better than the original though.
But as I keep telling people, all balls made for heavy oil patterns are great IF you can throw them properly. Good rev and all that other stuff giving the balls more friction.
thanks for the info.. How do you have your Jackal drilled? I talked to a guy that hates the Carnage. He said it hooks at your feet and did nothing at all down lane. I'm sure there wasn't enough oil for it maybe?? I didn't see it, so I'm not sure how it looked. Strong solids tend to not get down the lane for me so that is why I'm leaning toward the Jackal.
If you are going to be at Travis this weekend, I'll bring my Revolt Havoc and my new Jackyl Carnage. Depending on the pattern Rob puts down, seeing both balls should give you a better idea.
Of course, you are welcome to throw them a few times(if your hand fits).
Sounds good. What.. you don't have the original Jackal?
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In my arsenal I have a Roto Grip Sinister and the Jackal.
These days the Sinister does nothing out there, while the Jackal does something.
Didn't know the Jackal was a pearl. But Motiv say it's made for heavy oil, so there must be something about it that makes it hook on the pattern I play on.
If you have much rev and the other stuff that gives much friction, the ball will hook so much.
A guy who throws without the thumb at the club I'm in threw both the Sinister and the Jackal. Both balls hooked so much that they went from one side to the other. The Sinister hit the 7 pin, the Jackal went into the gutter.
I'm very curious about if he could manage a strike with the Jackal if he stood far left, but the guy has back problems these days. And the other guys who throw without the thumb in the club can't get their fingers in the holes.
I'd try myself but I suck at throwing without the thumb.
At yeasterday's practice I had problems getting the Jackal to hook. Keep in mind that I'm very rev challenged :P
So I moved a few boards to the right (had left foot on the middle or the middle line on the inside of the sole).
Then aimed for the middle of the 1 and 2 mark out there. Got 3-4 strikes in a row that way.
So Monday's match is going to be interesting.
The Carnage is probably better than the original though.
But as I keep telling people, all balls made for heavy oil patterns are great IF you can throw them properly. Good rev and all that other stuff giving the balls more friction.
thanks for the info.. How do you have your Jackal drilled? I talked to a guy that hates the Carnage. He said it hooks at your feet and did nothing at all down lane. I'm sure there wasn't enough oil for it maybe?? I didn't see it, so I'm not sure how it looked. Strong solids tend to not get down the lane for me so that is why I'm leaning toward the Jackal.
If you are going to be at Travis this weekend, I'll bring my Revolt Havoc and my new Jackyl Carnage. Depending on the pattern Rob puts down, seeing both balls should give you a better idea.
Of course, you are welcome to throw them a few times(if your hand fits).
Sounds good. What.. you don't have the original Jackal?
Yea, I have one, but I never got around to drilling it.
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Yea, I have one, but I never got around to drilling it.
Collecting it? Or would you want to sell it?
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Yea, I have one, but I never got around to drilling it.
Collecting it? Or would you want to sell it?
Just never got around to drilling it. I'll probably will at some point.
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Yea, I have one, but I never got around to drilling it.
Collecting it? Or would you want to sell it?
Just never got around to drilling it. I'll probably will at some point.
See you Saturday
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thanks for the info.. How do you have your Jackal drilled? I talked to a guy that hates the Carnage. He said it hooks at your feet and did nothing at all down lane. I'm sure there wasn't enough oil for it maybe?? I didn't see it, so I'm not sure how it looked. Strong solids tend to not get down the lane for me so that is why I'm leaning toward the Jackal.
Well I'm pretty new to bowling. But I think it's a pin up layout I have. Drilled by Tore Torgersen.
Pin up is when the middle & ring finger holes is under the dot right? And pin down is when the dot is under them?
What is it called when the dot is off to the right of them?
I'm thinking that your friend tried it out on very dry conditions. Highly doubt there is any ball out there that would hook right away on heavy oil.
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thanks for the info.. How do you have your Jackal drilled? I talked to a guy that hates the Carnage. He said it hooks at your feet and did nothing at all down lane. I'm sure there wasn't enough oil for it maybe?? I didn't see it, so I'm not sure how it looked. Strong solids tend to not get down the lane for me so that is why I'm leaning toward the Jackal.
Well I'm pretty new to bowling. But I think it's a pin up layout I have. Drilled by Tore Torgersen.
Pin up is when the middle & ring finger holes is under the dot right? And pin down is when the dot is under them?
What is it called when the dot is off to the right of them?
I'm thinking that your friend tried it out on very dry conditions. Highly doubt there is any ball out there that would hook right away on heavy oil.
You are correct about the pin up and pin down. Not sure there is a name for the pin to the right or in line with the finger holes.
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So the Jackal is not good for heavy oil, might be why they made the Carnage.
Unless you got high rev rate and good with the other stuff that makes the balls friction a lot, then the Jackal will barelly hook on heavy oil.
At yeasterday's practice there was a lot of oil, and even when I managed to get a good rotation on the ball and all that the ball still wouldn't hook much.
I had to stand to the right of the middle, and aim for around the 2nd mark.
Glad I'm buying 2 solid balls soon.
(C300 Swerve and Hammer Scandal)
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The Jackal is pretty strong. Are you sure you are playing in the correct part of the lane? Is your heavy oil short or long? Was a different ball more successful than the Jackal for you? These are things that can affect the perceived performance of any ball.
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The Jackal is pretty strong. Are you sure you are playing in the correct part of the lane? Is your heavy oil short or long? Was a different ball more successful than the Jackal for you? These are things that can affect the perceived performance of any ball.
I'm a low rev player, I'm a stroker.
It is actually a great ball for me. But I will never be able to throw it like the Motiv staff does in the videos for their balls.
If you can throw the ball like they do, then the ball will hook a lot on heavy oil. But if I hadn't bought the Jackal already, I'd go with the Carnage instead.
Plus I'm buying 2 new heavy oil balls next month.
Scandal and Swerve.
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I have the Carnage, and while I think its is a good ball, it does not roll as early or hook as much as my Mastermind or Nirvana.