BallReviews
Equipment Boards => Motiv => Topic started by: LyalC52 on March 15, 2016, 02:20:42 PM
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USBC's FB page is reporting the Jackal and Carnage have been removed from the approved equipment list. I've been trying to get onto Bowl.com to read the article, but their site is down.
Anyone know why?
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Has the USBC ever done this after approving a ball? I don't see any details as to what specs it doesn't comply with.
"USBC has revoked approval of two Motiv brand bowling balls and removed them from the list of balls approved for competition effective today, March 15, 2016. USBC determined the Jackal and Jackal Carnage balls do not comply with current specifications and requirements in the USBC Equipment Specifications and Certifications Manual."
http://www.bowl.com/News/NewsDetails.aspx?id=23622326199
https://www.facebook.com/usbc
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ARLINGTON, Texas – The United States Bowling Congress has revoked approval of two Motiv brand bowling balls and removed them from the list of balls approved for competition effective today, March 15, 2016. The revocation comes after USBC determined that the Jackal and Jackal Carnage balls do not comply with current specifications and requirements in the USBC Equipment Specifications and Certifications Manual.
USBC testing showed a significant percentage of the Jackal and Jackal Carnage, both produced by Motiv, exceeded the maximum 0.060" differential radius of gyration standard specification during spot checks of bowling balls in the field. Both balls were originally approved based on test balls submitted by Motiv. The Jackal had been approved for competition in Sept. 2014 while the Jackal Carnage was approved for use in late Dec. 2015.
The following section of the Equipment Specifications and Certifications Manual details USBC governance in this situation:
The USBC possesses the right to spot check bowling balls during the course of the year. USBC approval may be revoked if it is determined that the production balls are significantly different than the submitted test balls or do not comply with current specifications and requirements outlined in the USBC Equipment Specifications and Certifications Manual.
Pursuant to the penalties outlined in the USBC Equipment Specifications and Certification Manual, Motiv is placed on probationary status with USBC for one year, and subject to a fine of $16,000.
Unapproved bowling balls may not be used in USBC certified competition. Bowlers who used the Jackal or Jackal Carnage in competition on or before March 15, 2016 with no prior knowledge of their ball being out of specification would not be subject to forfeiture under USBC rules.
Go to www.BOWL.com/EquipAndSpecs to learn more about the USBC’s equipment specifications.
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I am awaiting Motiv's response.
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I am awaiting Motiv's response.
Reno will be interesting tomorrow.
BL.
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Imagine being in Reno, only had brought 3 balls, or worse, 2 and 2 of them being Jackals/Carnages.
Uh oh
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They might need to update that ball giveaway up top!!
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Imagine being in Reno, only had brought 3 balls, or worse, 2 and 2 of them being Jackals/Carnages.
Uh oh
Yeah, that would not be good.
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I know a lot of people that drilled up a Carnage just to use in Reno. It is a disappointment and setback for Motiv , but I'm sure they will make good on all of the Jackal and Carnage sales and offer a refund or replacement ball.
Any one know what the probation means. Does the probation prohibit Motiv from releasing any new balls?
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I wonder if we would ever get the USBC to release how many Jackals/Jackal Carnages were spot tested in the field and provide the results of the test. Provide the weight of the ball, the batch (based on Serial #) and what the true diff was on the test. That way Motiv could possibly narrow down if a bad batch left the plant (although if only one batch you would think there would be little chance for a ball from the one batch to be found, so the fact that multiple were found probably says this is more than a singular batch issue) or if the issue is with one weight in general and other weights are ok....
My assumption is for now, USBC would (HOPE) provide that specific info to Motiv so Motiv can investigate and recall the bad products.
Also, I wonder what the USBC's threshhold is to determine a ball needs recalled. At what point does saturation occur within the sample for the USBC to make this decision.
Need input (in my best Johnny 5 Short Circuit voice)
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Overseas Jackals still alive! LOL :-X
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10955332_10208988864344583_1516555939826277450_n.jpg?oh=c07e04fe0adbf0c36e4556d275bbf91a&oe=578CC24A)
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Motiv has been pushing that .060 limit a lot, starting with the Cruel C51.
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I wonder if that is why a lot of companies stay lower than the .060 spec.. You have no manufacturing tolerance.
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That sucks that USBC is banning the balls immediately. They could have given bowlers a short period of time(30 days or less) to get a replacement ball. I have no doubt people are showing up to bowl league tonight with no knowledge of this whatsoever.
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Would the Pin/cg/mb line make a difference? Just asking because I figure someone here(probably JustRico or kidlost2000) will know the answer to this question.
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I'm hearing the balls will be switched with a ball of choice. The serial number will be sent in and you will receive a replacement. But it does leave Motiv without an Asymmetrical ball in their entire lineup.
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If we could only get them to spot check lane conditions.At least my sanction did maybe go for something. Spot checking bowling balls Wow.
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I'm hearing the balls will be switched with a ball of choice. The serial number will be sent in and you will receive a replacement. But it does leave Motiv without an Asymmetrical ball in their entire lineup.
I don't know if this is legit or not, but that seems to be the case:
https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfl1/v/t34.0-12/12822020_10208903761771792_909424948_n.jpg?oh=5464eb47265eb5057a4c630bcfaf57c5&oe=56EB3ACC
I'm not sure if I'm disappointed or not. My Jackal Carnage was just drilled up Friday but didn't get a chance to use it yet. I guess I'll never know what I'm missing. ;D
Figuring out what to replace it with is another matter. I'm not sure if there's anything else in the Motiv lineup that fits my bag cleanly.
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Buddies pro shop has taken them down it looks like. BowlerX still has them up.
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New motiv gem you can't throw in sanction play but still own nib
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Found this
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Motiv has a message when you call....they are working on resolving the issue with ball owners and will have an update on March 23rd.
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Sucks for people in Reno now as someone else stated. Wonder if the Motiv Booth, if they have one, will replace them there for the bowlers showing up with the Jackal's
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30$ for any carnage!!!!
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I'm hearing the balls will be switched with a ball of choice. The serial number will be sent in and you will receive a replacement. But it does leave Motiv without an Asymmetrical ball in their entire lineup.
New Jackal coming in about 75 days. All current Jackal owners will receive the new one for free.
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TKK...do we have to get the new new jackal or is it ball of choice?
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This sounds like a payoff from a competitor...the day before Reno and this comes out? All the people there with jackals have to go to another heavy oil ball...I bet the Storm booth is right next to Motiv's.
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I'm hearing the balls will be switched with a ball of choice. The serial number will be sent in and you will receive a replacement. But it does leave Motiv without an Asymmetrical ball in their entire lineup.
New Jackal coming in about 75 days. All current Jackal owners will receive the new one for free.
If true, the Boy (my son) will happily wait. In the mean time he can use his Havoc. Perfect? No. Adequate for the time being? You betcha.
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TKK...do we have to get the new new jackal or is it ball of choice?
I'm awaiting confirmation. First I was told ball of choice, then beans were spilled about a new Jackal. So I'm not 100% at the moment. But either way, Motiv is replacing them.
I'm hearing Brunswick and Storm voiced concerns over the ball forcing USBC to sample the cores.
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It sucks, I love my Jackal.
But if I can get a new one from Motiv, it's alright. Because my ball just got some burn marks on it after tonight's bowling.
Damn ball elevator didn't work properly, so both my Scandal and Jackal got stuck, the wheels stopped moving, but not soon enough on the first time it happened.
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I was just about to pull the trigger on getting a Carnage too...
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TKK...do we have to get the new new jackal or is it ball of choice?
I'm hearing Brunswick and Storm voiced concerns over the ball forcing USBC to sample the cores.
This doesn't surprise me even a little bit. Especially with the two big PBA wins.
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So sad just drilled my carnage
That's ok if there's a replacement come out soon ::)
Motiv just need to show up their good services
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bring out a new jackal!!!!! i can wait...
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I was thinking of getting a Carnage drilled by Tore Torgersen at the end of the summer break if he were to come to my hometown. (I don't play any league or tournaments during summer break).
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Can't conduct a test on EVERY single Jackal/Jackal Carnage produced. USBC doesn't know if this is limited or from every batch.
Imagine if 10,000 combined Jackals were produced. How would the USBC handle determining which ones were legal and which ones were not? Is the USBC going to send folks out to every bowling alley? Is the USBC going to ask that everyone send Jackals to them to be tested? What if they (USBC) ship your ball out to someone else and vice versa. How would you ever get your ball back?
Too many logistical nightmares. For the USBC to pull the plug, there must have been a significant number of bad balls and not just a handful.
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I've looked at a few heavy oil balls now, most of them have a diff of 0.54-56.
The Scandal that Hammer says is the most hooking ball has 0.55 diff.
Diff has to do with hook potential right?
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Diff is how strong a core is. Surface is still king, but for a ball to work on heavy oil, you need a strong core, which is represented by lower RGs/Higher Diffs. High RGs mean the ball will lope more before the core starts to roll, and would anyone use the Dart core (diff of .015) on a heavy oil pattern? Even paired with a heavy load particle cover, the core will not face up well enough on longer patterns or patterns with more volume.
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Imo, USBC should test more Jackals and Carnages. Just to be sure that the rg is too high. Maybe Motiv's machines did a mistake on the balls that was tested :P
Machines like the kind that make the cores aren't perfect, far from it actually.
Well I'm guessing they're made with the machines I'm thinking of.
And if I'm correct, someone at Motiv might did a mistake in the coding.
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The overseas version is still approved……. So there's an option
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Imo, USBC should test more Jackals and Carnages. Just to be sure that the rg is too high. Maybe Motiv's machines did a mistake on the balls that was tested :P
USBC probably tested a lot of balls. Because they stated an average that was higher
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Can't conduct a test on EVERY single Jackal/Jackal Carnage produced. USBC doesn't know if this is limited or from every batch.
Imagine if 10,000 combined Jackals were produced. How would the USBC handle determining which ones were legal and which ones were not? Is the USBC going to send folks out to every bowling alley? Is the USBC going to ask that everyone send Jackals to them to be tested? What if they (USBC) ship your ball out to someone else and vice versa. How would you ever get your ball back?
Too many logistical nightmares. For the USBC to pull the plug, there must have been a significant number of bad balls and not just a handful.
There's no way to verify after drilling anyway. Once it's drilled the differential could be even higher, depending upon the layout.
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motivbowling.com added this under news:
Today the USBC announced that they have pulled approval of the Jackal and Jackal Carnage bowling balls due to non-conformance with current specifications. Recent spot checking in the marketplace showed that both balls had an average differential over the maximum limit of .060.
We are currently working on a form for our website that will allow bowlers to submit their Jackal or Jackal Carnage into a database to become eligible for a replacement ball. We expect the form to be online March 23. While we will not be able to reimburse drilling fees, we will replace the bowling ball with a current model or a future release of the Jackal. More details will be coming soon.
Thank you very much for your business. We sincerely apologize.
Question: Will you be ok having to pay to have the new ball drilled?
For the record, my shop always drills defective ball replacements at no charge. But I have a hard time stomaching drilling 50+ jackyls for free.
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Interesting foul play?
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Oh my goodness. Then all those Storm and Brunswick balls that won so many tournaments must also be ILLEGAL. As stated after drilling diff. must be really sky high above the max diff. I guess Storm has about or had 30% of U.S. sales. Somebody didn't like to lose sales to MOTIV.
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It seems like all other companies stay right at or below .58 diff. Maybe that's the safe zone just in case something like this happens.
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This just in. Going price on eBay is now $500 a ball. Everyone needs more flare!
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We can all throw out conspiracy theories as to how this was caught, but none of us know what brought this about. In the end, rules are rules. If the balls weren't meeting the spec, they need to be pulled. It sucks for the bowlers, but, as others have said, maybe that's why so few manufacturers push it so close to the number. If anything goes wrong during QC, you can get a problem like this.
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Oh my goodness. Then all those Storm and Brunswick balls that won so many tournaments must also be ILLEGAL. As stated after drilling diff. must be really sky high above the max diff. I guess Storm has about or had 30% of U.S. sales. Somebody didn't like to lose sales to MOTIV.
If I drive 65.01 mph on a 65 mph road is it illegal? Yes it is. If the diff is 0.60 and the ball is 0.601 is illegal? Yea it is.
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You can drive up 5mph over the posted speed limit in generally most any location without it being illegal. Unless you happen to be in serious red neck ville. At that point your 35% safer staying indoors
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One of the competitors had to be involved.
Who sends a case of balls with a post it, "spin me"
They're getting cut throat out there..
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When you get to .001 over the Diff. limit the Belmonte Gremlins are released from the ball and wreak havoc creating monstrous revolutions that no bowler should wield on the lanes
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One of the competitors had to be involved.
Who sends a case of balls with a post it, "spin me"
They're getting cut throat out there..
I think so as well, thats why I posted that disclaimer from Dilaura Brothers bowling supply.
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That sucks that USBC is banning the balls immediately. They could have given bowlers a short period of time(30 days or less) to get a replacement ball. I have no doubt people are showing up to bowl league tonight with no knowledge of this whatsoever.
Had a guy really upset tonight.
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Where did that come from, Billdozer? I'm not saying that sort of thing couldn't have happened, but that's a bit of a reach to throw out there unless there is proof to back it up.
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Where did that come from, Billdozer? I'm not saying that sort of thing couldn't have happened, but that's a bit of a reach to throw out there unless there is proof to back it up.
Well if u read the PDF from dilaura...they made the claim.
A pro shop operator or a general person isn't going to shell out the $ for a case to be sent to USBC. COME ON. USE YOUR MANLY DEDUCTIVE REASONING.
it's got a be a competitor. Who? I'd be betting my $ on Utah/Kentucky/Mexico. I could also see someone who coulda been an insider with motiv...ex staffer that knew of the variances, maybe they dumped him. Idk.
Just playing detectiive. I have no proof. Plus u got someone on here saying that the big b guys were rejoicing in Facebook...kinda obvi there...
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Overseas Jackals still alive! LOL :-X
(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10955332_10208988864344583_1516555939826277450_n.jpg?oh=c07e04fe0adbf0c36e4556d275bbf91a&oe=578CC24A)
Killing me lol
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The amazing thing I've seen with this issue is how so many people in post around the different sites are up in arms because the USBC did their job.
Everyone has bellyached over and over about how the USBC doesn't enforce anything. Now that they have they are bellyaching about that.
I guess everyone only wants the USBC enforce the rules they want enforced or that don't affect them personally.
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You can drive up 5mph over the posted speed limit in generally most any location without it being illegal. Unless you happen to be in serious red neck ville. At that point your 35% safer staying indoors
Not in the department i am in nor surrounding me.
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Where was that link, Billdozer? I haven't seen that yet. As for rejoicing, I am FB friends with quite a few Brunswick reps and staffers, and I haven't seen a single post about this issue from any of them.
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I posted it earlier in this thread..Second paragraph.
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So what are the rumors about a future release of the Jackal? Will it just be an updated core or was it something they've had planned with a new coverstock (and obviously an updated core to go along with it now)? I might just wait a bit and go for that as a replacement if it fits what I need.
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So what are the rumors about a future release of the Jackal? Will it just be an updated core or was it something they've had planned with a new coverstock (and obviously an updated core to go along with it now)? I might just wait a bit and go for that as a replacement if it fits what I need.
This just happened today, give them some time to sort thru and figure out where to go with this.
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This is the forth or fifth time this core has been approved, to me they should just grandfather the ones already in circulation and pull all undrilled like they have done in the past with other balls. This is really bad timing with USBC Tourney just starting..
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Ah, thanks. I saw the pic earlier, but I thought it was just another copy of the Motiv press release. I don't know who runs that Dilaura Brothers Bowling Supply, so I can't really comment as to whether or not I find that source to be credible. Again, would it shock me if that's the way it happened? No, but I'm not taking that as gospel just yet. Then again, I don't much care how it happened. If the balls were illegal, they needed to be pulled, and if I were a competitor, I wouldn't hesitate to blow the whistle info had suspicions. I mean, if I am being forced to design within certain guidelines, I wouldn't think it was no big deal if a rival was working outside the lines.
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Ah, thanks. I saw the pic earlier, but I thought it was just another copy of the Motiv press release. I don't know who runs that Dilaura Brothers Bowling Supply, so I can't really comment as to whether or not I find that source to be credible. Again, would it shock me if that's the way it happened? No, but I'm not taking that as gospel just yet. Then again, I don't much care how it happened. If the balls were illegal, they needed to be pulled, and if I were a competitor, I wouldn't hesitate to blow the whistle info had suspicions. I mean, if I am being forced to design within certain guidelines, I wouldn't think it was no big deal if a rival was working outside the lines.
I didn't say Brunswick guys were rejoicing someone else did. However, someone is playing dirty. I'm sure word will get out soon enough.
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Ah, thanks. I saw the pic earlier, but I thought it was just another copy of the Motiv press release. I don't know who runs that Dilaura Brothers Bowling Supply, so I can't really comment as to whether or not I find that source to be credible. Again, would it shock me if that's the way it happened? No, but I'm not taking that as gospel just yet. Then again, I don't much care how it happened. If the balls were illegal, they needed to be pulled, and if I were a competitor, I wouldn't hesitate to blow the whistle info had suspicions. I mean, if I am being forced to design within certain guidelines, I wouldn't think it was no big deal if a rival was working outside the lines.
I disagree, to me thats dirty pool if thats really what happened. I own a small business that is in a very competitive field and if my competition did that to me that would effect my employees as well as my own lively hood then I would be upset. And thats what is happening to everybody that owns those balls that now all of a sudden can't use them especially with USBC tourney starting. The core has been approved 4 or 5 times. If its really that big of a deal they need to do more testing after initial testing.
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So what are the rumors about a future release of the Jackal? Will it just be an updated core or was it something they've had planned with a new coverstock (and obviously an updated core to go along with it now)? I might just wait a bit and go for that as a replacement if it fits what I need.
This just happened today, give them some time to sort thru and figure out where to go with this.
I wasn't sure if the talk about a new Jackal was a similar situation to something like the leaked Venom Cobra or not, as in they've had it planned and some details are already out. That's all. I'm in no real hurry for another new ball since I've also recently gotten a Mastermind Intellect that was on closeout.
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I have to disagree. First of all, why should any of these companies follow guidelines if their competitors aren't going to? Second, this isn't USBC flip-flipping on this ball.
The balls sent in for initial testing/certification must have passed in order to ever have been legal in the first place. What's been found is that a significant percentage of the balls produced and sold by Motiv were produced in a manner that caused them to come in outside of the legal numbers. Now, either Motiv deliberately changed the specs after getting the balls approved, which I seriously doubt, or they operated too close to the limits from the start, and quality control issues caused the production balls to be produced in a way that took them outside of the legal specs. The real question to me is whether Motiv was aware of the problem and chose to look the other way (not implying-just wondering) or whether they just assumed the balls were coming out within limits as planned. I don't know because I don't know what kind of post-production testing is conducted. No matter how it happened, now that it's been caught, it can't be allowed. I feel badly for bowlers who have these balls because they are not at fault. Still, you can't allow non-confirming equipment into play regardless of who's fault it is that it got there.
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So what are the rumors about a future release of the Jackal? Will it just be an updated core or was it something they've had planned with a new coverstock (and obviously an updated core to go along with it now)? I might just wait a bit and go for that as a replacement if it fits what I need.
This just happened today, give them some time to sort thru and figure out where to go with this.
I wasn't sure if the talk about a new Jackal was a similar situation to something like the leaked Venom Cobra or not, as in they've had it planned and some details are already out. That's all. I'm in no real hurry for another new ball since I've also recently gotten a Mastermind Intellect that was on closeout.
Right, I think it was just talk of making adjustments to the originals or small changes.
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You can drive up 5mph over the posted speed limit in generally most any location without it being illegal. Unless you happen to be in serious red neck ville. At that point your 35% safer staying indoors
not getting pulled over and getting a ticket is not the same as legal. driving over the posted speed limit is illegal. period.
just as a diff of 0.601 is against USBC rules
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I have to disagree. First of all, why should any of these companies follow guidelines of their competitors aren't going to? Second, this isn't USBC flip-flipping.
The balls sent in for initial testing/certification must have passed in order to ever have been legal in the first place. What's been found is that a significant percentage of the balls produced and sold by Motiv no longer met the guidelines. Now, that can happen due to something deliberate, or it can happen due to quality control issues during manufacturing and trying to get too close to the guideline in the first place. No matter how it happened, now that it's been caught, it can't be allowed. I feel badly for bowlers who have this balls because they are not at fault. Still, you can't allow non-confirming equipment into play regardless of who's fault it is that it got there.
I guess we will agree to disagree, my main point is you are starting to dip into someone lively hood and to me thats dirty. How do we know all other manufactures are legal after the fact? The jackal has been out a year before anything was brought about. Then the carnage wins a couple of big events and all of a sudden some balls show up at USBC with a note on them to spin them. I really hope this is not the case but if it is then its dirty.
This is all I am going to say until further proof, I don't want this to turn into a argument back and forth on speculation.
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You can drive up 5mph over the posted speed limit in generally most any location without it being illegal. Unless you happen to be in serious red neck ville. At that point your 35% safer staying indoors
not getting pulled over and getting a ticket is not the same as legal. driving over the posted speed limit is illegal. period.
just as a diff of 0.601 is against USBC rules
Exactly not being pulled over doesn't mean its legal lol nor is USBC not enforcing rules equal its legal..
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Regardless of what the numbers were. The ball made it thru USBC testing and passed. As far as using it in tournaments the ball is still LEGAL to use in NON SANCTIONED tournaments. Since the ball is still stamped USBC CERTIFIED. High Diff. balls do not suit everyone's style of bowling. Once you punch finger holes and weight hole in a ball the Diff. can be increased by drilling the weight hole further from center line. Which in point makes about 90% of balls drilled illegal.
Driving over 11 miles over the posted speed limit is illegal. not 1 or 2 or 3. Unless your in a school zone with children around
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Regardless of what the numbers were. The ball made it thru USBC testing and passed. As far as using it in tournaments the ball is still LEGAL to use in NON SANCTIONED tournaments. Since the ball is still stamped USBC CERTIFIED. High Diff. balls do not suit everyone's style of bowling. Once you punch finger holes and weight hole in a ball the Diff. can be increased by drilling the weight hole further from center line. Which in point makes about 90% of balls drilled illegal.
Driving over 11 miles over the posted speed limit is illegal. not 1 or 2 or 3. Unless your in a school zone with children around
Are u kidding me right now?? What's the point of speed limit if your allowed to go faster.....
And so what if the ball past the test at that time. Any company could easily change the production after passing. Just like how people cheat smog. Slap your OEM parts to past the test right after slap whatever the hell you want.
You gotta be trolling me
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You can drive up 5mph over the posted speed limit in generally most any location without it being illegal. Unless you happen to be in serious red neck ville. At that point your 35% safer staying indoors
I got pulled over for doing 36 in a 35 mph zone.
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
So maybe USBC should do the same for all ball companies and actually spot check high Diff. balls. Since Storm and BIG B equipment are the strongest hooking balls on the market until they also get pulled.
Can't hang with the speed limit just walk. Not jay walk. Get busted worse for that than speeding. Red neck put you in jail for that. No video allowed to exonerate you in a court of law. Law man rules the court there.
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Should of asked for the calibration sticker and model # of speed measuring device. If he said he followed you and not mentioned he observed you by a calibrated device you can fight that ticket. Since patrol cars do not have calibrated speedometers. My truck when driving at any limit is under by 2-4 mph. If I'm driving speedo says 40, actual speed is less.
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Should of asked for the calibration sticker and model # of speed measuring device. If he said he followed you and not mentioned he observed you by a calibrated device you can fight that ticket. Since patrol cars do not have calibrated speedometers. My truck when driving at any limit is under by 2-4 mph. If I'm driving speedo says 40, actual speed is less.
Why would mi 2 az have to do all that step when according to you he is legally allowed to past the speed LIMIT by a few mph
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Speed trap. They had a bunch of police cars and someone with a radar gun pointed down the road.
When I got up to them, they pulled me over to a parking lot full of other vehicles they had stopped.
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Being a Motiv fan, it was disappointing to hear this, though I am not affected by this. I sure hope this was purely a manufacturing error, and not an intentional attempt at trying to sneak by the rules. I think the way this was handled is a black eye on the USBC, almost as much as Motiv. Seems to me USBC could have at minimum worked with Motiv, giving them a heads up this was coming, so Motiv could have their response strategy in place ready to go and immediately ready to provide options for the owners of the affected balls, instead of having to wait a week or so. That along with giving owners a little grace period. As several have mentioned, some may already be in Reno for Nationals, with their gear and now could be left high and dry with maybe even left with nothing to use....and now waiting till next week to get their replacements. A guy on the team we bowled tonight, learned this on his way in, so didn't have the option to bring something else. Overall he was pretty upset with Motiv, and says he does not want a replacement Motiv...so I am sure their will be a fair share of this opinion as well. And lastly, it seems to me that, it would be a better idea to completely shut down the Jackal name from the lineup, and not create a replacement adjusted Jackal.....just to get that brand name issue out of the spotlight and people's minds. Oh well, just sad to see this come up and put a scar on the sport that is struggling to grow.
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MI 2 AZ it was a lack of discretion on po po's part. Even on a down grade. It's an illegal speed trap. Just show photos of area, position where radar gun location was behind trees, bushes and brush. Photo of partially hidden posted sign. Police departments are responsible for having to report downed signs visible or even partial to municipal departments for repair and removal of impeding drivers line of sight. In my area po po hide their bikes directly behind light poles while using radar. U can't see them until you've already gone by. Speed Trap.
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The lack of people wanting to enforce the rules and regulations is absolutely disgusting. I work in the financial field and we all know how well that turned out for investors in 2008. So, now that I am a Risk Manager at one firm and we have put into place specific controls that have cost the firm significant time and resources (profit) to make the bank up to date and meet or exceed all expectations, I am not supposed to look at competitors and if I or my company finds a competitor is NOT doing something right, I should look away? HECK NO. This is why the USA is where we are today....let's just look the other way instead of standing up and doing what's right.
And as for going over the speed limit....it is 100% illegal. Just because you do not get pulled over or it is possible the calibration of a device may be off a tick or 2 does not give you the right to arbitrarily set a new speed limit. I would love to hear you argue that in a court of law. Tell a judge, ya know, I know murder is illegal, but my wife called me XYZ, so because of that I am moving the goalposts and deciding it is ok for me to murder my wife based on this regardless of what the law says. Come on.
As for those who want the ball legal, I have thought this and possibly already written this, but if all the balls submitted to the USBC were legal, and yet in the public realm the ball is now illegal, something smells in Denmark. Bad. That tells me balls that were shipped to the USBC were under the .060 spec but balls shipped for public consumption were not. With that said, someone had to know WHICH balls to send to the USBC for testing. My guess is the USBC is probably ticked over that, thinking a company was trying to pull the wool over the USBC's eyes, more than the fact that yeah, the ball is slightly illegal. If your job at the USBC was to test balls to determine if the ball meets regulations, and you had tested every ball out of the Jackal line multiple times and every one came in with a diff under .060 and yet now, every ball you are getting from the public is over .060...something is amiss. Further, if you allow Motiv to keep drilled Jackals and Carnages in play, what message does that send to every other company? That says, hey, they got caught, but they were able to get a ball in public hands that exceeded regulations. We need to do that. There is little backlash from the USBC and if the USBC allows us to keep all balls out there, good to go.
Plus, you are forgetting something. Sure, if you want to grandfather a ball great. But you are only speaking for those that are in use/drilled right now. Problem is there are probably many sitting in a pro shop undrilled...possibly at a home undrilled if the person bought it off the internet...so how are we to police when the ball was drilled to be able to grandfather that one, but not the Jackals sitting at Ace Mitchell? That is the problem with allowing some in the market and not others from the same model. You have to be consistent and the USBC would have a nightmare on their hands trying to track who had a Jackal/Carnage drilled prior to March 15.
Finally, Motiv should absolutley pay for the new ball to be drilled. As a customer, the customer did nothing wrong. ZERO. And yet the customer is going to have to pay to have another ball drilled because Motiv wanted to push the envelope too close or whatever the issue is? No way, Motiv needs to reimburse drilling fees. I have already sent Motiv a message and clearly stated that if the company did not reimburse me for drilling on my 2 new balls that I receive to replace my Jackal and my Carnage, I would dump the rest of my Motiv equipment (including bags, shirts, etc) and would never touch a Motiv product again. I should not be penalized in ANY way because of the mistake Motiv made.
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I know that there are those who are going to bash USBC at every turn no matter what, but even I am having a hard time stomaching people blaming USBC in this. People constantly question what USBC does to serve the sport. Well, here, it was made aware of a compliance issue (no proof yet as to how they learned of it), they investigated, they found cause, and they took immediate action by pulling the illegal balls from play since they don't meet specs, and now we have people saying that's the wrong move? Man, now I've heard it all!
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bash em when they do nothing, bash em when they finally do something by the rule book. Moral of the story....USBC can never do something right.
Bottom line....it is only the wrong move when the move does not benefit the person(s). If I had 5 Jackals I would be pissed right now, and yeah, Motiv can say, well USBC originally passed the Jackals, somehow something happened but we would have continued to product the Jackal but USBC made us stop. Who looks like the bad guy?
Let's be clear...I do not see Motiv saying anything publicly other than replacement balls will be provided and nowhere did I see anyone from Motiv bash the ruling. The bashing is coming from bowlers/PSOs etc.
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When a ball is submitted for a approval 4 balls are sent to USBC for initial testing, two 14's and two 15's. If the ball comes close to the limit on any of the tests performed then eight more balls of that weight are submitted for additional testing. So the original balls tested either were not close enough to require additional samples to be tested or at least a dozen balls were tested and passed for the ball to be originally approved.
So it's not like two balls squeak through a test and it gets an approval letter.
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Correct....which screams to me Motiv sent balls they knew would pass initial inspection....and then produced balls that did not.
I guess there could be another theory. Its....you would know this answer better....how many folks test new bowling balls at the USBC to ensure the ball meets regulations? if one/very limited, I guess one theory could be that a USBC employee went rogue and knowingly allowed the balls to pass...even though the ball truly didn't pass.
Are the balls that are tested kept by the USBC somewhere to retest in the future, especially in a situation like this? I would love to have the USBC revisit those initial tests and review them and make that information available.
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The usbc (who does little of anything) should now check every MFG balls...Like I said...this sounds like a hit job.
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It was a hit job. But.... produce balls within the specified regulations, nothing to worry about.
Are you, or anyone, willing to pay the USBC more money to conduct more testing on every ball out in production for "field tests"? The money required to purchase product, pay people to test the product, compile the results, etc will cost a pretty penny. Considering now the USBC requires companies to send samples of the ball to the USBC, I am pretty sure the USBC does not pay for any of the balls currently.
Who is going to foot that?
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The original four test balls are not returned. I do not know if they are kept by USBC or not. The eight additional samples are returned.
Last I knew testing was done by one person. If he went rogue it would be one of the biggest shocks of my life. I worked with him for a few years so I know him pretty well. I would have to guess before they go through the process of removing a ball from the approved list the balls are tested multiple times by multiple people or witnesses. I've been involved in one way or another for over 30 years and this is the first I remember of an approved ball being pulled, so I'm sure it was not a decision taken lightly.
There is a fee for each ball submitted for approval. I don't remember what it is off the top of my head. It's listed in the equipment specifications of the USBC rule book.
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Motiv won a couple of PBA events, one with the Jackal Carnage...Motiv is getting hot and im sure one of the other companies that recently released duds like the Phaze and Fight and are not happy. So a long comes a major tournament in Reno and wouldnt you know it.....the day before Motiv with just 2 asymmetrical balls gets them both banned by the usbc...So the victims that are in Reno have actually NO chance of using a Motiv asymmetrical ball. What do we do now they are thinking? Hmmm Oh, I know, storm just came out with the Alpha, they have the Lock etc...so it leaves no choice but to NOT buy Motiv. It would make to much sense for the usbc to come out and say "The Jackal line will be banned AFTER April 1st or a date in the future...BUT the money they got from one of these competitors (because usbc is going broke) speaks louder then common sense. Thats what I think happened and unless someone else has proof otherwise...Thats what I'll think and now after this dirty usbc tactic, I will only but Motiv in the future.
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I would hope the USBC would have went and pulled the original Jackals and Carnages tested and restested them along with testing the new ones.
I do understand that it can be a shock that one person can go rogue, but I have see that happen so many times it is unreal. Just last week a person with sole access to a payment account for a company had created a fictional firm. The person with sole access to the payment account then created fake invoices, submitted the fake invoices to the firm, and paid the invoices (essentially embezzlement).
Person had worked at the company for 20+ years. Was doing this for almost a decade before being caught. Everyone couldn't believe...nicest person ever, etc.
Not to mention....Bernie Madoff....
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So its dirty to immediately remove a ball known to not meet USBC regulations from any sanctioned competition?
So, when Deflategate hit last year...remember the outrage because supposedly the NFL knew the balls were too light and yet did not remove them from competition...everyone said how can you allow a ball to not meet requirements stay in competition...
And yet now, when it affects one of our own or yourself...nah...let's throw that away (the previous thought process) and say we SHOULD be able to use a ball that does not meet spec for a period of time...exactly the opposite of what public opinion was last year.
Hey...I know. I am going to drill a ball with 5 ounces + of side weight. Illegal right? Well, I am going to only bring balls drilled with 5 ounces of side weight and even if I get called on it, because I am in Reno or at a tournament or because I think whatever reason, I should be able to use the illegally drilled balls for a few more weeks.
Just doesn't work that way. When an illegal ball is found, it has to be removed immediately from any sanctioned competition. In this case, an entire model had to be removed.
I do agree it smells fishy (that should be the scent of Storm's next ball) and smells like this was on purpose...but what we don't know is that this could have occurred months ago and the testing time required to ensure the findings were just released yesterday.
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The usbc said a "percentage" of the balls did not meet specs...BUT 100% of them are pulled..The NFL didnt pull every ball...They checked the ones that are there, NOT remove every ball from the entire league. Why cant the usbc go to Reno and check the ones that are there with their little spinner? Since this has never happened before it looks dirty and the timing of it looks even worse. I have a Jackal, maybe it is in specs, maybe it isnt, but its over a year old....you cant tell me that the usbc took over a year to come to this conclusion. And I would bet my life that there are illegal drilled balls out there everyday with to much side weight...BUT again the usbc does not check any of that. I would like to know when the last time they certified lanes? I havnt seen them or heard of them coming to check anyththing.
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Because the balls are now drilled if the ball is already in your bag. The USBC rule is based on UNDRILLED balls. Diff changes significantly after drilling, thus why the USBC has said that undrilled balls must meet a spec if .060 diff or less. New ones tested did not and there is no way for the USBC to know which ones did and which ones did not prior to drilling.
Considering the Carnage was just made available to the public at the end of January, the USBC had no more than 6 weeks lead time to purchase samples from the field, test the samples, possibly retest the original samples used in certifying the original Jackal and the Jackal Carnage and release the results.
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Also, you can add air or take air from a ball without affecting other footballs. One cannot take away from the core or add to the core after production. If many were found to be out of spec, the majority (or all) produced are out of spec and there is no way to change the core to get it below the diff requirement of a predrilled ball.
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Here's a question.. Did they measure balls before or after drilling? Not throwing elbows, but Radical brags about the numbers after drilling, and did someone go thru a bunch of undrilled Jackals and test them? What if the issue was a manufacture issue and not a line issue? Wouldn't that just negate the balls that were out of spec and not the whole dang line?
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Doom
We don't know if it was a line issue or a manufacturing issue, but considering this involves both Jackals, this is not a one time manufacturing defect and obviously occurred over more than a singular run.
All balls are tested for Diff to meet the USBC spec of .060 or less PRIOR to drilling. No way to ensure a ball stays below .060 after drilling...in fact, Radical boasts a drill that increases the diff to above .060 on the Guru Master and other Gurus (see drilling C on the drill sheet posted to Radical's website under the Guru line of balls). You can do anything you want to a ball by drilling it, increase the diff, lower the diff, etc. The USBC to ensure a flat playing ground has stated that a ball must start out at a diff of .060 prior to drilling. Imagine trying to go from bowler to bowler to find the diff on the ball drilled. WOul dbe different for every bowler (potentially). Almost no way to govern that.
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Also remember storm was taken to court over the crux:
Either it's storm joining in the legal battling or the company who took storm to court, is picking another fight.
I got my 2 culprits narrowed down for my on Sherlock holmeness.
My guess is either storm or Brunswick.
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Bill -
If you remember, Storm went after Ebonite on the Mission Domination which changed the name of the ball to 100K or whatever. Also, I remember someone went after Brunswick when balls coming from Mexico were not labeled correctly as Made In Mexico coming across the border to the USA.....I think that was either Storm or Ebo going after Brunswick.
So it wouldn't surprise me if any of the 3 were involved in this or were the primary reason why any of this occurred.
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Jackal was already used by Radical in a comparison video and likely a new hp release would be compared with the Carnage and others…….. That's my guess
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Does it matter who reports it??? Should the reporter stay quiet?? The ball is illegal end of story.
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I've been silent until now, for obvious reasons (see signature below), and I don't want to bash any company publicly. It's not my intent.
To me, it almost doesn't matter whether the issue happened by manufacturing error or on purpose. I'm sure that appropriate action will win out over time. And USBC is merely doing their job, so don't blame them.
These things happen periodically, and can benefit the whole industry by putting all companies on alert and remind them to "drive between the lines", so to speak. This is an opportunity for all involved to learn from it and get better.
Bowling balls are bowling balls. People are only human. It's nice when bowlers get credit for bowling well, rather than the "magic ball" doing the work... Good luck to all involved; the customers, Motiv, and USBC.
Let's take this thing and learn from it rather than point fingers at each other. The industry has plenty of challenges to keep it busy. Let's chalk this one up and move on...
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To clarify one of my previous statements, I'm not saying that anyone affiliated with Motiv was bashing the USBC ruling; as usual, it was bowlers on here and in other online forums doing that.
12XSECH: you said that USBC should check all MFG balls. They do that during the initial testing phase. If you're saying that they should spot-check balls after the fact, that's a different matter. However, it doesn't sound like this was a random spot check by USBC. It sounds as if USBC was asked by someone or some group to test these balls. How and why that was requested I don't know, and I'm not sure that anyone on these boards really knows that. But, again, it doesn't sound like USBC just randomly picked these balls to take a closer look at.
The question that I have is in regard to Motiv's knowledge, what they knew and when they knew it. Do manufacturers test their stuff after production to make sure that the balls are within guidelines? It almost seems like they'd have to. If that's the case, when did Motiv know that the Jackals and Carnages were coming out out of spec, and what did they do? Did they continue cranking them out and figure that nobody would notice? To me, that seems unlikely because I don't see enough benefit to it. I seriously doubt the average bowler can truly see a difference between a ball with a .057 or .059 diff versus one with .060 or .062. As such, I can't see them risking this outcome.
If that was the case, did they stop producing the balls or producing them with different specs once they noticed the problem? If that was the case, how many bad batches are out there versus legal ones?
This whole thing is just really strange to me. As others have said, if I were a bowler, I'd be ticked off; however, I can't see how they can blame USBC on this one. If the balls are illegal, you have to ban them. It sucks for the bowlers for right now, but Motiv will have to work to make that right.
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12XSECH: You are clearly a USBC hater. You are not alone; you have several people on here who will be more than happy to cozy up with you and spew your conspiracy theories; however, I hope the rational, intelligent members can see that all that you are doing is throwing around allegations with absolutely ZERO proof to back them up. You are claiming that USBC was basically paid off to disallow these balls. If you can provide evidence to support that, I would love to see it. If you can provide it, I'll happily admit that you were right, and I was wrong. The same thing on the timing. You've cooked up some conspiracy that this was intentionally done to screw people at the Open Championships and that it's meant to force people to buy Storm balls. Good God, man, again, do you have one sliver of proof to back that whopper of a claim up? Of course you don't. If you want to hate USBC, be my guest, but get some evidence to back your claims up. Throwing out random allegations makes you look like a tinfoil hat-wearing nut job.
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You can drive up 5mph over the posted speed limit in generally most any location without it being illegal. Unless you happen to be in serious red neck ville. At that point your 35% safer staying indoors
not getting pulled over and getting a ticket is not the same as legal. driving over the posted speed limit is illegal. period.
just as a diff of 0.601 is against USBC rules
Thank you.. simple common sense.
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I have not used my Carnage hardly, just too damn strong for the conditions I see. I'll gladly take advantage of this to trade it for another Revolt Havoc.
I have an original Jackal that is still NIB. Maybe I will hang onto it and sell it next year for a billion dollars to some idiot on eBay. :o ;D
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Regardless of what the numbers were. The ball made it thru USBC testing and passed. As far as using it in tournaments the ball is still LEGAL to use in NON SANCTIONED tournaments. Since the ball is still stamped USBC CERTIFIED. High Diff. balls do not suit everyone's style of bowling. Once you punch finger holes and weight hole in a ball the Diff. can be increased by drilling the weight hole further from center line. Which in point makes about 90% of balls drilled illegal.
Driving over 11 miles over the posted speed limit is illegal. not 1 or 2 or 3. Unless your in a school zone with children around
The specification is for the manufacturing of an undrilled ball. There is no specification on the differential of a drilled ball as long as the static rules and other hole rules are followed.
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I have not used my Carnage hardly, just too damn strong for the conditions I see. I'll gladly take advantage of this to trade it for another Revolt Havoc.
I have an original Jackal that is still NIB. Maybe I will hang onto it and sell it next year for a billion dollars to some idiot on eBay. :o ;D
Now that's funny, and probably true. You may be underestimating that eBay guy though, because 1.5 billion is more realistic.
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I have not used my Carnage hardly, just too damn strong for the conditions I see. I'll gladly take advantage of this to trade it for another Revolt Havoc.
I have an original Jackal that is still NIB. Maybe I will hang onto it and sell it next year for a billion dollars to some idiot on eBay. :o ;D
Now that's funny, and probably true. You may be underestimating that eBay guy though, because 1.5 billion is more realistic.
I was referring to my profit AFTER eBay and PayPal fees. ;)
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It is pretty simple. A ball with .060 differential leaves no manufacturing tolerance. Perhaps the ball that was submitted was under the .060 limit. Motiv could have changed a raw material in the filler or changed a process that unknowingly put the ball over the RG diff. limit. They probably should have check this but it happens all the time in all industries. In my industry they try to substitute materials all the time in favor of a cheaper or more available material. Guess what? Even though the material is supposed to be a suitable substitute, sometimes it screws everything up..
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I know densities can change diffs dramatically. I wonder if somehow a raw material with a different density was delivered to Motiv for use, Motiv didn't check the raw material, and for whatever reason, Motiv didn't pull any balls off the line to test???
Still falls on Motiv for not having tight enough controls, either in checking raw materials or checking finished product.
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Like Mr. Carter, I too have remained quiet. I have just watched from the sidelines, and been amazed at the quality, and direction, of some of these replies.
Human nature is amazing, but also a bit dumbfounding.
USBC, for the longest time now, has been under fire for never doing anything. How many comments have we seen, crying about "What do I get for my money"? Well, here is one thing.
RULES ENFORCEMENT!
How the infractions came to light is not even important. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU COMPLAINING would've done exactly the same thing to any competitor who was "cheating" if you found them out, and you know you would, so don't cry foul now.
Motiv pushed the envelope, but pushed it too far, and it is now biting them in the behind. They should've had much tighter QC on the product line, especially given that it was already designed at the upper tolerance levels, to insure against this happening. They did not, and it is going to cost them.
As for the consumer, I feel bad for you guys. I wouldn't like it either,especially if it cost me a chunk of my own money to fix a problem created by someone else, but like I said, you should place the blame where it goes, and that is with Motiv, NOT the USBC, STORM, BRUNSWICK, or anyone else.
That being said, I think the next ball I buy will be a Motiv. They seem like a good company that makes good products right here in the good old USA, and I like that.
I don't really need a ball right now, but that's never stopped me before. That paypal account has been burning a hole in my pocket anyway...........................
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I know densities can change diffs dramatically. I wonder if somehow a raw material with a different density was delivered to Motiv for use, Motiv didn't check the raw material, and for whatever reason, Motiv didn't pull any balls off the line to test???
Still falls on Motiv for not having tight enough controls, either in checking raw materials or checking finished product.
agreed.
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Gene, if you knew how to comprehend what you read you will see what I said. I never said I had proof of anything. ITS MY FEELINGS THAT ......another company had something to do with this. I would never buy a storm or brunswick piece of garbage again. AGAIN...THATS MY PERSONAL preference. For one brunswick isnt even made in the USA and I think (I THINK) storm had their hands in this. You tell me who else the people with Jackals have to turn to now at the last minute in Reno?
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The Jackal has been out since 2014....what took till 2016 for the usbc to "discover" this? Oh lets go travel the country and do field tests on the Jackals....But they dont have money for a plastic key chain? If they went around field tested other companies balls all equally and then found this....thats one thing BUT it appears they did not do this. Motiv was targeted and plain and simple.
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About the comments concerning the use in the PBA and also I have heard discussion about whether titles with Motiv balls should be taken away.... Do PBA balls even need to be USBC certified? The only thing I found in the PBA rules is that the ball must be from a PBA registered company. I'm sure Motiv will not want their staffers using the ball because they can't sell it ,but I am not sure what would stop anyone from legally using the ball in PBA competition.
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Good question on the PBA use of the ball. I thin kwe have to side with the bowler because at the time, the bowler(s) believed the ball met all specs.
12X....USBC didn't fly around the country. USBC purchased balls (undrilled) and had them delivered to the USBC headquarters for testing. This was to ensure Motiv could not send them balls that Motiv knew would be under the diff max and instead, test what was going into consumer's hands.
Also, my assumption is the problem was with the Carnage. After the Carnage whooped up on the competition, I bet there was some companies look at the ball and test the ball. As I mentioned somewhere else, in the late 90's, Brian Pursel and Ebonite tore apart the Track heat to see what made that ball so good in an attempt to get in on the good because Track was handing everyone their lunch at the time.
So, said companies get some Carnages, test it, and discover the issue. because the original Jackal and the Carnage are supposed to share a core, by default, the original Jackal would/should be illegal based upon testing of the Carnage. So then USBC tested the original Jackal and found it in fact doe snot meet standards.
I highly doubt they started with the original and went from there. It started because the Carnage won some Majors.
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I highly doubt they started with the original and went from there. It started because the Carnage won some Majors.
+1000
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IT'S ALL BELMOS FAULT!!!
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IT'S ALL BELMOS FAULT!!!
I KNEW IT, *&(@ing Two-handers! >:( ;D ;D
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Frickin Aussies
:)
Just kidding
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I just found out about this issue today. Coming here to see what the discussions were on the subject, I am dumbfounded by some of what I read. Like others, I have seen comment after comment about the USBC "doing nothing" and "what do I get for my dues" etc., etc., etc.. Now that we see the USBC taking a stand, doing something, enforcing rules of the game....we see more complaints. Unreal! It shows me exactly what I have thought, that people will never be happy with the USBC no matter what they do. One former fishy poster here must be sitting back with a huge smile on his face today over this.
Moving on to the topic. What I see is the real issue is one of quality control at Motiv. I have nothing against that company, I own a few of their balls, but haven't seen them match up well with my game. As a bowler, I want to see as many ball companies out there as possible. First to give me the most options to find equipment that will best suit my game and my needs. Second, to keep competition up to make sure companies are always inventing something new and pushing the technology of the game forward. And lastly, to keep competition up to keep prices in line. My take on this, is that the Jackal line was designed to have a .060 differential. That is at the upper limit. If there is any deviation in manufacturing, the balls have a chance to go over that limit. It could be that the core mold(s) expanded slightly over time and use. It could be a minor change in the materials used (as stated previously), it could a number of other things. The problem is that somehow, this wasn't caught by Motiv prior to the balls leaving the factory. Somehow, somewhere, this is a mistake in their QC process. That needs to be addressed ASAP. Then they can go about correcting the issues.
And while I wish no ill toward Motiv, they need to make sure they reimburse the bowlers for all costs in regards to this issue. That includes the drilling/pro shop charges (for grips, thumb slugs, etc.) associated with getting the new ball ready for use. Maybe this is done by voucher given to the Pro Shop that allows them to get extra or free equipment at a later date, so there isn't an outpouring of cash for Motiv. There should be some mechanism that allows the bowlers to not be out anything for this change, but won't put an overly undue burden on Motiv.
And I feel for any bowler who is effected by this. But, you cannot allow these balls to be used in sanctioned competition after yesterday. I wouldn't have thrown a fit if someone tried to use on in league last night, as I said, I only found out about it today. But I would have informed them that last night would be the last time they could use it legally. As far as the USBC Open in Reno, if someone showed up with just a Jackal or Jackal Carnage in their bag, I would say they weren't prepared to do well anyway. The conditions are challenging, but not static and someone would need other equipment to make a run at cashing. While it may require the purchase of another ball there potentially for the start of team event (and potentially D/S), if they want to make it easier on themselves, it shouldn't force anyone to make a purchase if they truly were there to do their best. They may want to in order to continue to give themselves the best chance to cash, but it would be their choice.
JMHO
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IT'S ALL BELMOS FAULT!!!
I think it was Rash's fault....his damn water bottle did it again.
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Well said Jorge. Well said on each point!
I really like the voucher idea for drilling replacements. No cash outlay and Motiv can send equipment at a later date.
I also didn't think about molds expanding. I wonder if contraction could cause the same issue? If the core molds were not properly cleaned after each use, residue would build up and subsequent cores would be smaller than previous cores produced.
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>> I wouldn't have thrown a fit if someone tried to use on in league last night, as I said, I only found out about it today. But I would have informed them that last night would be the last time they could use it legally.
One of my pro-shop guys bowls in my Tuesday Night league. He knew the ball was now illegal, but told me he didn't care if I used my Carnage one last time.
However, a guy on the other team we were bowling, waited until practice was over and then told me I could not use the ball. Sneaky? Sure, since the next ball I had to pull out of my bag I would not have any practice with. Well, it backfired on him as my team took 8 of 10 points and I shot a 265 game with my no practice Revolt Vengeance.
No matter what happens....I AM STICKING WITH MOTIV!!
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AMF300 - As I said, I would have let you throw it. But if I wasn't, or if someone on my team didn't want that to happen, I would have said something after your first throw with it. It was a bit underhanded to only say something after practice. But as you showed, if you know your equipment well enough, you can make the change and know what moves to make to still score well. Glad it worked out for you and your team.
Wowzers - Thanks. I posted the voucher idea in the other thread too, with a bit more details as I thought through it more. It seems like the best of a bad situation for Motiv, the PSO's, and the bowlers.
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Much better system than reimbursing the bowler, much better than exchanging cash, easier to track, and the product Motiv would provide as reimbursement is probably cheaper to produce than the cash value would have been, so in the long run, Motiv spends less overall rather than reimbursing for straight cost of drilling and supplies.
Much better than anything I had come up with.
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I'm only on page 4 so forgive me if this has been covered.
In any competitive industry, all major players buy samples of their competitors products and test them to see what makes them tick. Whether it's to learn more about them, see what makes them potentially better than yours, or to flat out reverse engineer them.
Ebonite (V2) and Roto (SD-73) got a temporary grandfather clause to keep a product alive past the time the USBC lowered the differential spec. Whether the spec means anything in the real world is irrelevant. Now if you're over 0.06, it's illegal pure and simple. Is it a little low class to anonymously (if that's what really happened) send a package to the USBC Probably. Were they just to bring it to the attention of the USBC? Absolutely.
Whether it's because someone felt they were at a disadvantage because the Motiv balls were better because of the high differential or if they just wanted to take a bite out of a competitor doesn't really matter. A rule is a rule and the balls needed to be banned. As Aloarjr810 said - why are we mad that the USBC actually enforced their own rules?
Motiv made a (hopefully honest) mistake and now has to correct it. Instead of feeling sorry for Motiv, I'd feel bad for the bowlers that now have a ball or two they can't use. Maybe it affects their Reno plans. Maybe a big local tournament. You're still going to have to wait a while before you get a replacement and shell out another $50 for drilling unless your pro shop covers that. It's bad enough when balls crack with minimal usage, but it stinks for the average Joe (not the many of us who buy/drill a ton of balls fairly often) to be out addition money for something completely out of his control.
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Good post Strider
I am not worried about me overall as much as someone like a person living off of fixed income. Try explaining to that person that not only is the ball you have been using in your bag for maybe a year plus is now illegal and you can no longer use it, Motiv is going to give you a free ball, but you are going to have to pay to get it drilled when you did nothing wrong. What if the person on fixed income doesn't have the $$ in his/her budget right now or maybe ever? What if the ball was a gift from someone because that person knew the person living on fixed income could not pay for a new ball.
So now the person with the no longer good ball goes back to the person who bought the ball as a gift and says, oh by the way, can you give me another X to pay for a replacement ball because my ball is no longer legal because the manufacturer either with intent lied to get around a spec or has some of the poorest QC in the bowling industry.
Not a chance. Wouldn't happen.
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IT'S ALL BELMOS FAULT!!!
I think it was Rash's fault....his damn water bottle did it again.
Best comment I saw on facebook was, "Thanks Obama!"
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I'm hearing chirps about who the mole is. Not hard to believe considering the whole "spin me" arrogance. Hopefully this come to light soon.
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I'm hearing chirps about who the mole is. Not hard to believe considering the whole "spin me" arrogance. Hopefully this come to light soon.
Are you suggesting something RADICAL? ;D
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I'm hearing chirps about who the mole is. Not hard to believe considering the whole "spin me" arrogance. Hopefully this come to light soon.
That's exactly the person I thought of when I heard about this.
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The Jackal has been out since 2014....what took till 2016 for the usbc to "discover" this? Oh lets go travel the country and do field tests on the Jackals....But they dont have money for a plastic key chain? If they went around field tested other companies balls all equally and then found this....thats one thing BUT it appears they did not do this. Motiv was targeted and plain and simple.
Targeted by whom, USBC? Again, another accusation with zero evidence to support it. Nobody here knows how this got started and why. We have a bunch of conspiracy theorists claiming that it must have been because some Motiv balls looked good on TV shows. Well, there have been tons of hot balls on TV over the years, and we haven't seen this happen before. I watched the shows in question, and while the Carnage looked good, it didn't look like anything out of the ordinary. Again, somehow USBC got wind that something was up, so they tested the balls, and they found them to be dirty. As such, they had to be pulled. Until or unless Chad Murphy or someone else WITH FACTUAL INFORMATION to tell us how everything went down, we're all doing nothing but speculating.
Lastly, 12, you mentioned USBC basically screwing over Open Chanpionships bowlers who were already there ready to use those balls. My first response is how is that USBC's problem? That is a MOTIV problem. In my world, Motiv should've contacted the people running their booth and told them to swap out the Jackals and/or Carnages for anything they had on site, and if the bowler didn't want another Motiv piece, they should've paid to let that bowler replace the Jackal or Carnage with anything that bowler wanted (of comparable value) from any other booth there. I can't imagine there were 100 bowlers there with this problem. As such, you really only had to get through a couple of days. After that, word should be out in plenty of time for bowlers to make other arrangements. Still though, that is a Motiv problem, not a USBC issue.
But hey, why let a complete and total lack of factual support stop you from hurling allegations at people and USBC as a whole. What's next? Is USBC secretly working with ISIS? Are they in cahoots with the Trump campaign? Just keep letting the crap fly, and we'll see if any of it sticks.
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Regardless of what the truth is, the USBC and specifically Mr. Murphy have lost all credibility.
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Gene, you are spot on, period.
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The Jackal has been out since 2014....what took till 2016 for the usbc to "discover" this? Oh lets go travel the country and do field tests on the Jackals....But they dont have money for a plastic key chain? If they went around field tested other companies balls all equally and then found this....thats one thing BUT it appears they did not do this. Motiv was targeted and plain and simple.
Targeted by whom, USBC? Again, another accusation with zero evidence to support it. Nobody here knows how this got started and why. We have a bunch of conspiracy theorists claiming that it must have been because some Motiv balls looked good on TV shows. Well, there have been tons of hot balls on TV over the years, and we haven't seen this happen before. I watched the shows in question, and while the Carnage looked good, it didn't look like anything out of the ordinary. Again, somehow USBC got wind that something was up, so they tested the balls, and they found them to be dirty. As such, they had to be pulled. Until or unless Chad Murphy or someone else WITH FACTUAL INFORMATION to tell us how everything went down, we're all doing nothing but speculating.
Lastly, 12, you mentioned USBC basically screwing over Open Chanpionships bowlers who were already there ready to use those balls. My first response is how is that USBC's problem? That is a MOTIV problem. In my world, Motiv should've contacted the people running their booth and told them to swap out the Jackals and/or Carnages for anything they had on site, and if the bowler didn't want another Motiv piece, they should've paid to let that bowler replace the Jackal or Carnage with anything that bowler wanted (of comparable value) from any other booth there. I can't imagine there were 100 bowlers there with this problem. As such, you really only had to get through a couple of days. After that, word should be out in plenty of time for bowlers to make other arrangements. Still though, that is a Motiv problem, not a USBC issue.
But hey, why let a complete and total lack of factual support stop you from hurling allegations at people and USBC as a whole. What's next? Is USBC secretly working with ISIS? Are they in cahoots with the Trump campaign? Just keep letting the crap fly, and we'll see if any of it sticks.
How the USBC found out was a case of balls was anonymously sent to them with a note that read spin me. After they did they bought random balls from the market place and tested them as well and they were over. The letter is on BBE from Motiv that states this.
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Regardless of what the truth is, the USBC and specifically Mr. Murphy have lost all credibility
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
I don't necessarily like Mr. Murphy, nor am I crazy about the USBC, but how have they lost their credibility?
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Regardless of what the truth is, the USBC and specifically Mr. Murphy have lost all credibility.
Ah, I was wondering when our other resident USBC hater would chime in. I swear, USBC officials could rescue a convention center full of orphans from a fire, and you'd find a way to criticize them for it. It would be something about the fact they should have spent the time working, or you'd claim that they started the fire just as a publicity stunt.
Okay, I know that I am going to get a stupid, I'll-reasoned answer that makes me sorry that I ever asked, but I can't resist. How in the world have you managed to spin the fact that USBC caught a company producing non-compliant equipment and held said company accountable into something USBC has done wrong?
bltbyj: I saw that information posted, but I know nothing of that distributor site, so, for me, I'm not taking that as credible evidence that that is exactly what happened. I'm not saying that it couldn't have happened that way, but, again, I don't know that source well enough to trust that as gospel just yet. Time will tell.
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Think about it...if this had happened during Mr. Murphy's predecessor's tenure I doubt there would be this level of distrust. There is no transparency from an organization that's supposed to serve membership. Membership continues to decline but they seem to work tirelessly reviving the PWBA and we have now reached a level where an incompetent organization wants to increase dues...give me a break. That's like a company that does a terrible job and loses most of its customers, so it goes to the ones that are left and says I need to charge you more so I can continue to serve you? I think this is probably my last season as a sanctioned member until there are wholesale leadership changes...add me to the millions of bowlers we have lost in the last 10 years.
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I think you missed the point I was trying to make about credibility. I don't personally believe there's a conspiracy, I'm just saying that if the organization was credible in the first place there wouldn't be so much mistrust.
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Think about it...if this had happened during Mr. Murphy's predecessor's tenure I doubt there would be this level of distrust. There is no transparency from an organization that's supposed to serve membership. Membership continues to decline but they seem to work tirelessly reviving the PWBA and we have now reached a level where an incompetent organization wants to increase dues...give me a break. That's like a company that does a terrible job and loses most of its customers, so it goes to the ones that are left and says I need to charge you more so I can continue to serve you? I think this is probably my last season as a sanctioned member until there are wholesale leadership changes...add me to the millions of bowlers we have lost in the last 10 years.
You have articulated those gripes many times over, and you are certainly entitled to those opinions. Likewise, you're entitled to discontinue your membership after this season, and I encourage you to do so because, clearly, you are displeased with the level of service your $18 entitled you to.
All of that aside, what in the name of Zeus' butthole does any of that have to do with this situation with Motiv?
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Gene,
I was responding to the person that asked why I thought they had lost credibility, but thanks for chiming in. I'm displeased that the USBC has convinced so many that increasing/retaining membership isn't their responsibility when that's how they make money. I guess bowling is as healthy as ever, enjoy the dues increase, they'll be back for another in a few years when membership hits 500,000 but that won't be their fault either.
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I'm hearing chirps about who the mole is. Not hard to believe considering the whole "spin me" arrogance. Hopefully this come to light soon.
Hardly surprising.
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Does any pro shop operator have the equipment to calculate the Diff. of ball in their shops in Texas? Last place I knew of close by was in maybe Mehico
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Gene
Good response to 12X. I think you summed up that argument pretty well.
L3nnon or whatever your name is...
There are more than just me that agrees the consumer should not be hurt in any way (drilling cost of replacement ball). However, why don't you continue to fight the fight and while you are at it, keep telling folks that the new Top gear core isn't coming in a new Venom ball...oh wait.
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I forget which thread it is in, but someone asked about getting a new ball instead of the used ball in our bags right now and if Motiv should take off for the difference. Let me ask you this. if you were told from the get go, that Motiv was selling a ball that was NOT USBC approved, meaning you could only throw this in recreation, nothing sanctioned, would you have purchased the ball and put it in your bag knowing when you went to league, a tournament, or anything sanctioned, you had to leave the ball at home?
Most answers would be no, I cannot afford to buy a ball that I cannot use during any sanctioned competition.
Thus, I know I would NOT have purchased either ball from the start, so there would not have been a used ball to replace. What I am getting at here is I bought the ball and used the ball based on the fact at the time the ball was sanctioned for any competition. Turns out that was not true. If I bought a new ball to use in sanctioned competition, I need a ball that can be used in sanctioned competition and would have never purchased or used any ball that otherwise was not allowed in competition.
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I don't have a dog in this hunt, but a couple of thoughts come to mind. First, Motiv deserves to be penalized for not putting out a ball that conforms to specs regardless of whether it was inadvertent or not. Second there is not way any bowler is gaining an advantage with a ball out of compliance to the degree that is noted on the test balls. Third, bowlers who bought these balls should not be penalized, and the balls in question should be grandfathered in. USBC originally did this with balls above the .06 level when the limit was lowered a few years back.
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I'm hearing chirps about who the mole is. Not hard to believe considering the whole "spin me" arrogance. Hopefully this come to light soon.
Are you suggesting something RADICAL? ;D
Maybe the person is just a physics guru?
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the balls in question should be grandfathered in. USBC originally did this with balls above the .06 level when the limit was lowered a few years back.
This is a little bit different of a situation. Balls were grandfathered then because USBC made a rule change. There was no rule change that made the Jackals illegal
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I'm hearing chirps about who the mole is. Not hard to believe considering the whole "spin me" arrogance. Hopefully this come to light soon.
Are you suggesting something RADICAL? ;D
Maybe the person is just a physics guru?
Not bad. Well played, sir.
We should stop making these ridiculous assumptions though.
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That was a Primo Rediculous statement you Grease Monkey. Who do you think you are? An Elite socialite that can have a Torrid Affair with any Guru you please?
Yeti out
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Just reading these arguments and speculations rave and rave on is tiring.
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this is a bummer man.
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Of course this is a different situation than the rule change. That is why you penalize Motiv. You just shouldn't penalize the bowlers for an infraction outside of their control or knowledge. Especially when common sense tells you nobody is gaining a competitive advantage due to the infraction.
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Avabob
Although very small, there is a competitive advantage one has by using either Jackal over any other product for sale today. The other companies cannot submit a ball that reads over .060 diff to the USBC for sanctioned play. Somehow, whatever happened, the Jackal is now over that limit. We have all talked about how the best bowlers (PBA, top amateurs) sometimes just a hair difference is all that one person needs to kick out that 1 10 pin.....and this might be it.
For me...yeah, no advantage. The problem is, you can't ban the ball for some and not all. I could see the PBA saying something different than the USBC.
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With all the variables in bowling, I feel pretty confident an additional .0004 differential is not a competitive advantage...even for the greatest bowlers on the planet.
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I feel bad for Ryan Ciminelli, he lost two majors to two players using the Jackal Carnage (Faulkner and Fach). If Ryan Ciminelli won the World Series he would've been player of the year and he would've gotten a $50,000 bonus for being the player of the year. If it weren't for the Carnage, Ciminelli would've been your 2015 POY and already have 3 majors to his belt. He's the hottest bowler on tour as of now. Honestly Motov should be paying Ciminelli, not USBC for the fee.
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I feel bad for Ryan Ciminelli, he lost two majors to two players using the Jackal Carnage (Faulkner and Fach). If Ryan Ciminelli won the World Series he would've been player of the year and he would've gotten a $50,000 bonus for being the player of the year. If it weren't for the Carnage, Ciminelli would've been your 2015 POY and already have 3 majors to his belt. He's the hottest bowler on tour as of now. Honestly Motov should be paying Ciminelli, not USBC for the fee.
Calm down son there's no guarantee he would of won those two majors u speak of.
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I feel bad for Ryan Ciminelli, he lost two majors to two players using the Jackal Carnage (Faulkner and Fach). If Ryan Ciminelli won the World Series he would've been player of the year and he would've gotten a $50,000 bonus for being the player of the year. If it weren't for the Carnage, Ciminelli would've been your 2015 POY and already have 3 majors to his belt. He's the hottest bowler on tour as of now. Honestly Motov should be paying Ciminelli, not USBC for the fee.
If it was only the ball that made the difference, everyone could buy a Jackal or Jackal Carnage and be a pro. It isn't the ball. It is the person throwing it. Ciminelli happened to lose to players using the ball, but that is purely coincidence and nothing more. If every tournament in the past year was won by people throwing Jackals then there may be something to it, but that isn't the case.
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I feel bad for Ryan Ciminelli, he lost two majors to two players using the Jackal Carnage (Faulkner and Fach). If Ryan Ciminelli won the World Series he would've been player of the year and he would've gotten a $50,000 bonus for being the player of the year. If it weren't for the Carnage, Ciminelli would've been your 2015 POY and already have 3 majors to his belt. He's the hottest bowler on tour as of now. Honestly Motov should be paying Ciminelli, not USBC for the fee.
Bullshit...don't understand your thinking or lack of...
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I feel bad for Ryan Ciminelli, he lost two majors to two players using the Jackal Carnage (Faulkner and Fach). If Ryan Ciminelli won the World Series he would've been player of the year and he would've gotten a $50,000 bonus for being the player of the year. If it weren't for the Carnage, Ciminelli would've been your 2015 POY and already have 3 majors to his belt. He's the hottest bowler on tour as of now. Honestly Motov should be paying Ciminelli, not USBC for the fee.
Bullshit...don't understand your thinking or lack of...
Even Ryan Ciminelli said regardless of the ball being used, he was beaten by a better guy those days. Here's the post from his Facebook page:
Ryan Ciminelli
March 15 at 5:41pm
I just want to make a quick comment about the jackal line.. I'm sure more n more people will be wondering how I feel being beat twice by guys that happen to be throwing this ball on major shows... So to squash it now... it doesn't change that those guys didn't have this knowledge, they still beat me, and although it brought back some of the hurt that comes with losing on those shows.. It doesn't change anything.. Just motivates me a little bit more to keep knocking on the door. No pun intended. #teamlefty #teamdv8 #turbogrips #gottabelieveyoursiscoming
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Class act.
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I feel bad for Ryan Ciminelli, he lost two majors to two players using the Jackal Carnage (Faulkner and Fach). If Ryan Ciminelli won the World Series he would've been player of the year and he would've gotten a $50,000 bonus for being the player of the year. If it weren't for the Carnage, Ciminelli would've been your 2015 POY and already have 3 majors to his belt. He's the hottest bowler on tour as of now. Honestly Motov should be paying Ciminelli, not USBC for the fee.
Bullshit...don't understand your thinking or lack of...
Even Ryan Ciminelli said regardless of the ball being used, he was beaten by a better guy those days. Here's the post from his Facebook page:
Ryan Ciminelli
March 15 at 5:41pm
I just want to make a quick comment about the jackal line.. I'm sure more n more people will be wondering how I feel being beat twice by guys that happen to be throwing this ball on major shows... So to squash it now... it doesn't change that those guys didn't have this knowledge, they still beat me, and although it brought back some of the hurt that comes with losing on those shows.. It doesn't change anything.. Just motivates me a little bit more to keep knocking on the door. No pun intended. #teamlefty #teamdv8 #turbogrips #gottabelieveyoursiscoming
Class act.
Agreed. A lot of that looks to come out of the Jack Jurek Book of Perseverence.
Honestly, if he had complained about the ball now, how much would he be made out to be a sore loser? That doesn't change the fact that there will be other challenges and other tournaments for him to win? He's already proven to be a winner in the PBA, so he knows that his time in the winner's circle is far from over.
Just from his response above, I'd bet anyone that if knowing what we know now if he had that chance again with those two majors would he have anything change, he'd say "absolutely not."
BL.
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Just noticed a new update had been posted; link below. I was wondering if the reinstatement initiative had died a quiet death; especially considering Motiv finally removed the balls from the ball chart. But apparently they are still working on it and a meeting with USBC is planned for June. Continues to be an interesting situation.
Plus there is a link for those people to who chose not to register and exchange their Jackals to get on a mailing list to follow progress of reinstatement initiative.
http://www.motivbowling.com/motivnation/news-events/2016-05-25/jackal-and-jackal-carnage-approval-reinstatement-updates.html
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I'm hearing chirps about who the mole is. Not hard to believe considering the whole "spin me" arrogance. Hopefully this come to light soon.
Are you suggesting something RADICAL? ;D
Maybe the person is just a physics guru?
Not bad. Well played, sir.
We should stop making these ridiculous assumptions though.
Wait what are you guys implying? That this company was behind busting out motiv to the USBC? Being that there hasn't been any official announcements...and I GUESS it doesn't matter who IT was...as all of the manufacturers gotta fight for themselves for business and shame on any company breaking the rules, unbeknownst or not. But I wanna know who this mega grudge match is against!
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I'm hearing chirps about who the mole is. Not hard to believe considering the whole "spin me" arrogance. Hopefully this come to light soon.
Are you suggesting something RADICAL? ;D
Maybe the person is just a physics guru?
Not bad. Well played, sir.
We should stop making these ridiculous assumptions though.
Wait what are you guys implying? That this company was behind busting out motiv to the USBC? Being that there hasn't been any official announcements...and I GUESS it doesn't matter who IT was...as all of the manufacturers gotta fight for themselves for business and shame on any company breaking the rules, unbeknownst or not. But I wanna know who this mega grudge match is against!
I have YETI to imply anything ;D ;D ;D sorry, I had too. But seriously, I'm not going to say who has been rumored to have "spilled the beans" so to speak.
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I'm hearing chirps about who the mole is. Not hard to believe considering the whole "spin me" arrogance. Hopefully this come to light soon.
Are you suggesting something RADICAL? ;D
Maybe the person is just a physics guru?
Not bad. Well played, sir.
We should stop making these ridiculous assumptions though.
Wait what are you guys implying? That this company was behind busting out motiv to the USBC? Being that there hasn't been any official announcements...and I GUESS it doesn't matter who IT was...as all of the manufacturers gotta fight for themselves for business and shame on any company breaking the rules, unbeknownst or not. But I wanna know who this mega grudge match is against!
I have YETI to imply anything ;D ;D ;D sorry, I had too. But seriously, I'm not going to say who has been rumored to have "spilled the beans" so to speak.
In all fairness, it's not a bad thing and they should have zero shame, I'd come out and say it. It couldn't hurt their sales lol. I'd be proud to have caught it, it makes total sense with them being about the numbers...and if anyone would catch it it would be them anyways...
Good for them!
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What I've suggested most likely from the beginning is Radical. Likely from their "perception vs reality" videos. They have the capability and are the most likely to do so when doing these videos.
No MOtiv needed, just an educated guess.
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What I've suggested most likely from the beginning is Radical. Likely from their "perception vs reality" videos. They have the capability and are the most likely to do so when doing these videos.
No MOtiv needed, just an educated guess.
maybe newguy can UNLEASH some information
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Doubt it. Nothing to be gained
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Wait what are you guys implying? That this company was behind busting out motiv to the USBC? Being that there hasn't been any official announcements...and I GUESS it doesn't matter who IT was...as all of the manufacturers gotta fight for themselves for business and shame on any company breaking the rules, unbeknownst or not. But I wanna know who this mega grudge match is against!
To be honest I don't care at all who did it. The balls were apparently obviously illegal and they needed to come off of the market. Was just having some fun with words. ;D
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Doubt it. Nothing to be gained
that's WHACK. MIGHTY as well leave the subject alone then...
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Doubt it. Nothing to be gained
that's WHACK. MIGHTY as well leave the subject alone then...
POW! SCORE one for you with a lot of GUSTO.
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Dont' Be Ridiculous, I think you just hit the Jackpot!!!!
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You all aren't SLANTed at all!
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You all aren't SLANTed at all!
I was waiting to see how some of you would REAX, but guess what? TIMES UP
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Ya'll are crazy.
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Ya'll are crazy.
Just a little asymmetrical. 8)
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Ya'll are crazy.
Just a little asymmetrical. 8)
I'm just tring to find out the finger scoop.
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The last page and a half have been GOLD! Continue to Rave about who you think did it!
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The last page and a half have been GOLD! Continue to Rave about who you think did it!
Rave On with your bad selfs. This has been entertaining reading all of it
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im done reading all this crazy talk...I'd have a better chance of finding a yeti then any answers
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im done reading all this crazy talk...I'd have a better chance of finding a yeti then any answers
it's far from crazy talk. There have been zero rack attacks!
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This whole thread is a Torrid affair.
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Ok, enough. It's time to stop the MONKEY business.
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This discussion is an interesting SLANT on things.
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Thread is gold and does have a SLANT, but not like the blurry old 90s gold threads, updated with a SLANT HD, so it's like 1080 and stuff. How did we ever watch those old threads?
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I will someday MASTER your humour. I will SUPREMELY hit the JACKPOT. Perhaps I will be ready for thread VERSION 2.0. AND UNLEASH ELITE SUPREME REDICULOUS WHACK, keyboard pounder style. 8)