Author Topic: Jackal and Carnage replacement/stall process (Read 34419 times)

LyalC52 · « **on:** March 29, 2016, 02:14:13 PM »

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lmy2xnldsl5ha0z/Motiv%20Jackal%20Fair%20Exchange%20Program.pdf?dl=0

uggg this has me a bit frustrated

I don't think I need a heavy oil ball during the summer, so do I wait for the LE ball, or get something I can use during the summer?

what if the LE is junk?

todvan · « **Reply #31 on:** March 30, 2016, 06:00:25 PM »

Quote from: WOWZERS on March 30, 2016, 04:36:16 PM

Spm,

I do NOT think a manufacturer should pay for a cracked ball, because we do no tknow why the crack occurred and who is responsible. Was it dull drill bits in the pro shop causing excess heat, how about the pro shop operator drilling too fast, was the fingers or another hole drilled too close to the pin? Was it a manufacturing error or issue that caused the ball to crack, maybe a hole got caught on a screw in the pit at the bowling alley...

Many reasons I have seen a ball crack from. We cannot pinpoint the issue as to why the cracking occurred.

However, every other ball of the same model is still USBC certified and can be used in any competition.

The Jackals had a manufacturing issue occur at the factory that caused the entire model to lose certification. Nobody's error other than Motiv. Motiv sold a ball that we thought was sanctioned for use in competition, but in reality, the ball was out of spec.

Large difference to me.

Agree

todvan · « **Reply #32 on:** March 30, 2016, 06:08:25 PM »

Quote from: todvan on March 30, 2016, 02:35:13 PM

As a Jackal original owner, I'm hoping the LE will be a hybrid that will work well at 4000 grit. My other option is to wait and keep the Jackal.

MOTIV/Staffer Question: If we wait past the May deadline for replacement hoping the Jackal gets reinstated, but it doesn't, will there be another replacement program? I am guessing that they would offer this, maybe they will have a new non-LE ball by then for the top of the lineup that fills the Jackal spot on the ball guide? But how long before this would happen?

Should I take the LE and hope it matches the Jackal with a surface adjustment, or wait hoping the Jackal stays legal or get a chance at an even better replacement?

Any thoughts?

WOWZERS · « **Reply #33 on:** March 30, 2016, 06:13:19 PM »

Steven

Thanks for the reply...just saw it. This does put the PSO in a tight bind....charge the normal fee and give the customer a 50% discount (assuming the PSO is able to recoup the other 50% of the drill fee through the sale of any reimbursement balls).

Pro shop is whole (assuming the PSO can get enough out of the reimbursement ball) but the customer is out $$

OR

PSO takes what he/she can get out of the reimbursement ball(s) and eats the rest. It is a bad business model to increase your workload (have to take pics of the ball, drill a hole in the Jackal to remove the USBC logo, upload pics to Motiv's site, etc) and cut your revenue in half.

How many of you would go to work if the boss told you that today, you are going to get an extra 3 or 4 reports or jobs to perform, and oh yeah, you are going to perform them for 50% of your normal wage.

I am sure most if not everyone on here would say shove it, no way. But yet, that is almost the situation PSOs are being put in by Motiv right now.

Quote from: Steven on March 30, 2016, 01:37:12 PM

Quote from: WOWZERS on March 30, 2016, 12:51:47 PM

In my opinion, what has ruined this country (assuming you are from the USA) is the fact that we do not hold folks accountable when their actions and their actions alone harm others. Motiv harmed the bowler, and the bowler should be made whole, not hoping the PSO doesn't ask for more $$ from the customer or hoping the customer doesn't mind picking up the difference.

Wowzers, well said. And your financial analysis of the burden on the proshop guy is spot on.

Motiv is doing the minimum it needs to -- nothing more. There is no need for anyone to go off the edge pretending otherwise.

WOWZERS · « **Reply #34 on:** March 30, 2016, 06:15:45 PM »

Todvan

I would not wait too long. If the deadline is approaching and nothing has been announced on the Jackals either being recertified or if they will 100% not be certified, I would move forward with submitting an exchange request. Worst possible situation would be for you to hold onto the ball, the redemption period ends and is not extended, the Jackals not get recertified, and you never submitted a request because you were holding out hope. You would then be stuck with a ball you cannot use in USBC competition.

I also think Motiv will know by May if the Jackals will be allowed or not. We shall see.

noslouch · « **Reply #35 on:** March 30, 2016, 07:38:48 PM »

For those of you PSO s maybe you should post a notice at the front window of your shops that you intend on charging full Disneyland price admission. Because your time is more valuable than keeping a customer who purchased a ball in good faith of being legal. Who may also be in mind to purchase another ball and pay the full cost of your private University of So Cal Tuition drilling.
I'm sure their are more capable drillers out in your locations who would be more appreciative of having those individuals and families walk in to see those well polished balls on the rack ready for some grubby finger holes drilled since Daddy may have a credit card burning a hole in his pocket from waiting for the new winter season releases. They may well receive future customers your so cynically ready to push away. Bonus for them.
Why not just list your shop on site if you plan on charging full price so those who read this thread can save the fuel it takes to travel to your shop. I personally would be happy to see those people treated like an appreciated customer elsewhere. That other shop will be happy to have that extra money in their hands for just PUNCHING UP 3 FINGER HOLES for same visit extra ball purchases. More foot traffic thru the doors for them. Especially during a time of constant down turn. Come to think of it. Just lock up, and put a sign on the door. OUT OF BUSINESS.
It's a shame that it would be a waste of your time to post a few pictures for customers whom had purchased a legal ball in good faith.

big_bg · « **Reply #36 on:** March 30, 2016, 08:03:02 PM »

Motiv isn't asking a shop to drill every ball in their inventory for $20 dollars. Most shops have likely sold 2-20 of these balls, a small number compared to how many balls a shop sells as a whole. Motiv is providing a slug and grips, the shop just has to give a bit of their time to drill the ball and keep a customer happy. My PSO is pretty busy but there's time when nothing is going on. I'm sure the 5-10 minutes to drill out the usbc logo and take a couple pictures of all the balls at once isn't going to kill the shop. If you're concerned with your shop's bottom line tell them what you want and have them drill it when they aren't busy, I rarely am at the shop when my stuff is actually drilled.
It's obviously not an ideal situation but shit happens. There's likely a lot of people who play in unsanctioned leagues and don't play tournaments who are going to simply take the opportunity to replace a ball with a bunch of games on it with something new.

luv2C10falll · « **Reply #37 on:** March 30, 2016, 08:09:47 PM »

Apparently the last two posters have never been self employed, therefore they have no clue what it takes to run a successful business

big_bg · « **Reply #38 on:** March 30, 2016, 08:29:04 PM »

Quote from: luv2C10falll on March 30, 2016, 08:09:47 PM

Apparently the last two posters have never been self employed, therefore they have no clue what it takes to run a successful business

I didn't say there's not a cost and that's it's a perfect solution, but having been involved in business my entire life there's one key and that's making sure the customer is happy. I would rather give up a few dollars especially when it is my time not material costs then I would about further annoying a customer.

If a shop is going to go under because they have to drill a handful of balls for less money then they need to look beyond Motiv for why their business isn't successful.

noslouch · « **Reply #39 on:** March 30, 2016, 08:59:12 PM »

For your information I am self employed. I also know that taking hit dos not mean losing your ass. There is an up side to making your customer welcome instead of a pariah for having to waste 15 minutes of your time that would otherwise be wasted sitting on ones duff waiting for some sucker to walk in the door to buy a $250 ball you only paid $110 for. Sitting outside getting a nicotine hit is worth $$$0. That extra upside is 80% they maybe willing to purchase another ball. Instead of wandering in to see what's on the "Wonder Wall" and shoot the breeze. Time spent doing those two things equals $$$0 dollars to your pocket and a waste of time you didn't make a dime. Or the extra tape roll, rosin bag and other crap marked up 200% sitting on display. If your time is that precious just close the doors and set up in your garage by appointment only. This way you'll have the time to nicotine up drink a brew and watch TV for 7 out of 8 hours that would other wise have been spent doing the same at shop. That 1 lonely hour is worth probably $360. $90 each for profit drilling 4 balls.

WOWZERS · « **Reply #40 on:** March 31, 2016, 04:17:31 AM »

Keeping the customer happy because of a fault the PSO did not commit?

How about Motiv keeps the customer happy that THEY caused an issue with. It wasn't the PSO who manufactured the ball out of USBC specs. It wasn't the PSO that had the ball uncertified. It wasn't the PSO that had to offer replacement balls. So where in that equation does it equal the PSO is required to do something because he/she screwed up? NOWHERE.

15 minutes to drill a ball huh? You need to go to a different pro shop. Before a new ball is drilled, the PSO should look at your current bowling balls to ensure your PAP has not changed, which might require you to go out and throw a few on the lanes. Let's make sure your grip is still good because the human hand is not static. As we grow older, we normally become less flexible and we may need an adjustment in span length and/or pitches. Did you lose or gain some weight since the last ball we drilled? You might need different sized holes or grip sizes to account for the change. The PSO then maps out the ball based upon the specs and the reaction you want. Probably should also weigh the ball to make sure the after drilled ball conforms with USBC specs. Need that bevel hit a little because the cut is too sharp, yep, the PSO does that after drilling as well.

Bottom line...if you want someone to spend 15 minutes punching 3 random holes in your ball, no wonder everyone thinks it is ok to either give away free drilling or reduced drilling.

If you want someone to know your game and the person to take time making sure that this next ball, that for some people might be the only ball bought new this season, is the right ball with the right fit, then find a qualified PSO that has an hour or more of time.

As for profit...there is overhead with the bowling alley...have employees? need to probably pay them a wage. Every pro shop I have ever went to, if you bought a ball from the PSO, future surface changes, quick cleaning on the spinner, coming out to watch you bowl with the new ball, and countless other items is included in that "profit". If being a PSO was so profitable, the industry would not be losing PSOs at an alarming rate.

More often today, the PSO is just a guy that can drill 3 holes in a ball, not a trained professional because everyone thinks the PSO should be able to live off of $20 a ball and feed his/her family and pay his/her bills.

tkkshop · « **Reply #41 on:** March 31, 2016, 05:36:31 AM »

WOWZERS

spmcgivern · « **Reply #42 on:** March 31, 2016, 08:20:33 AM »

Quote from: WOWZERS on March 30, 2016, 04:36:16 PM

Spm,

I do NOT think a manufacturer should pay for a cracked ball, because we do no tknow why the crack occurred and who is responsible. Was it dull drill bits in the pro shop causing excess heat, how about the pro shop operator drilling too fast, was the fingers or another hole drilled too close to the pin? Was it a manufacturing error or issue that caused the ball to crack, maybe a hole got caught on a screw in the pit at the bowling alley...

Many reasons I have seen a ball crack from. We cannot pinpoint the issue as to why the cracking occurred.

However, every other ball of the same model is still USBC certified and can be used in any competition.

The Jackals had a manufacturing issue occur at the factory that caused the entire model to lose certification. Nobody's error other than Motiv. Motiv sold a ball that we thought was sanctioned for use in competition, but in reality, the ball was out of spec.

Large difference to me.

Fair enough. Perhaps the reason for cracked balls is more of an unknown. But of all the causes you posed, only one was manufacturer's fault. In my opinion, I think 99% of cracked balls are not the fault of the manufacturer. Yet they are willing to replace the ball anyway. How many times have manufacturers replaced balls with finger holes close to the pin? How many times have manufacturers replaced balls that were left in extreme temperatures? Oh, but the bowler didn't do anything wrong.

Also, do you think manufacturer should replace a ball beyond the warranty? Motiv is doing that.

This is a special case where the fault is 100% on Motiv. I personally don't think it was intentional. I could see issues with core molds or density differences being the issue. I could also see application of the testing procedures as an issue also.

So should Motiv do more than just hand out new balls? Yes, I agree and they are doing that. Should Motiv refund all aspects of ball ownership? No, I don't think they should be required. My opinion. Plus, if a shop knows Motiv is covering the bill, how many less than honest shops are going to up the price a bit? Just a thought.

WOWZERS · « **Reply #43 on:** March 31, 2016, 08:50:10 AM »

Spm,

The cracked ball deal is tough. A manufacturer cannot verify the ball cracked because of a defect from them...but there is a warranty regardless. Per the warranty, that starts when the ball is sold to the consumer, not when the ball was produced. But I do think the manufacturer needs to be strict on the warranty. When your time runs out, sorry.

I would argue this is not a true warranty issue. A warranty issue means the product failed (broke). An item that falls into this category would be your TV breaking 2 or 3 weeks after purchase, the warranty says it is fixed for free. But the manufacturer does not replace every TV, or the part that broke on your TV on every TV, the manufacturer just fixes the ones that break within the warranty period.

This is different. The manufacturer failed to hit a spec and needs to replace the entire model. That to me is different than something breaking and needed to submit a warranty claim.

I had a Roto Loco Solid crack recently. This didn't cause the USBC to decertify the entire model, for bowlers to have to stop using the ball, and for Roto to send a replacement ball. This was a warranty issue.

You are correct on the PSO upping the price. I am all for the PSO to get what he or she normally would charge. To up the price because the PSO knows someone was repaying the entire fee is wrong and should not be tolerated, if it were to ever occur.

big_bg · « **Reply #44 on:** March 31, 2016, 08:56:52 AM »

Quote from: WOWZERS on March 31, 2016, 04:17:31 AM

As for profit...there is overhead with the bowling alley...have employees? need to probably pay them a wage. Every pro shop I have ever went to, if you bought a ball from the PSO, future surface changes, quick cleaning on the spinner, coming out to watch you bowl with the new ball, and countless other items is included in that "profit". If being a PSO was so profitable, the industry would not be losing PSOs at an alarming rate.

You keep the customer happy no matter what. If it's a very small cost to make sure they're happy you do it. You're acting as if this is make or break for most shops. The shop I go to drills 30+ balls a week which is impressive as he's not even in a bowling centre. He drills a lot of heavy oil balls and I'd be willing to bet he's drilled around 10 of these balls.
If they normally charge $50 to drill including grips and slugs and you're getting a ball which you all value at about $20 a person they are losing less than $30 of their time. If you estimate the grips and slugs at $5 dollars the shop brings in $25 less dollars. So they make $250 less on redrilling these 10 new balls but the customers are happy and I doubt the shop is losing money as they are likely covering the costs associated with drilling the balls. When it comes to the overhead issue you fail to consider whether these 10 balls would have been drilled at all, if the people would have kept using the jackals and not bought new balls then the fixed costs of the shop don't change nor does profitability. Many of these shops have down time so it's unlikely they are giving up other profitable work to redrill these balls. Where a shop would have lost out is if these 10 people were going to buy new balls at full pop and instead are getting a free replacement that the shop has to drill for less.

WOWZERS · « **Reply #45 on:** March 31, 2016, 09:05:24 AM »

Big

I agree 100% on the part about the PSO losing out because instead of the customer purchasing a new ball, now the customer gets the replacement ball and the shop loses a sale.