BallReviews
Equipment Boards => Motiv => Topic started by: LyalC52 on March 29, 2016, 02:14:13 PM
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https://www.dropbox.com/s/lmy2xnldsl5ha0z/Motiv%20Jackal%20Fair%20Exchange%20Program.pdf?dl=0
uggg this has me a bit frustrated
I don't think I need a heavy oil ball during the summer, so do I wait for the LE ball, or get something I can use during the summer?
what if the LE is junk?
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Not really a problem it would seem. You don't currently need the heavy oil ball you have and cant use........you can wait to see if Motiv gets the ball reapproved which isn't likely or you can wait on the LE. The LE (just my speculation) will be the Carnage cover and a core very similar to the Carnage with the diff closer to 0.055
If you want the big hooking ball that replaces the one you cant use then wait and get the LE. It will likely be really really similar to the one you like and cant use.
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What if the Carnage you bought in the first place would have been junk?
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What if the Carnage you bought in the first place would have been junk?
Blasphemy....no wait, never mind
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How about I had both Jackal and Carnage?
So I will had two LE balls for replacement?
What should I do for two identical ball?
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Motiv has answered every question with this release. I can't wait to see what 3835 complains about now. 2 inserts and a slug in every box, plus perks to the pro shop to drill the balls cheap and receive a free ball. Hell of a job Motiv. Now, make the next one legal 8)
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How about read the details? Pretty clearly states you can either wait for the LE, or you can get any currently produced ball with the exception of the Venom Cobra.
How about I had both Jackal and Carnage?
So I will had two LE balls for replacement?
What should I do for two identical ball?
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Some folks are very skilled in getting others to do the work for them.
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Where's Wowzers?
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https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154056753845489&set=o.61378703028&type=3&theater
Here's a link to the full statement since it seems like the one from the DiLaura Brothers in the first post gets cut off on the second page. It's smaller though so you might have to zoom in if you can't read it.
Seems like a pretty solid plan from Motiv's end. The bit about pro shops getting a new ball for every 8 (or lower) Jackals turned in is a pretty nice incentive for them, especially if a pair of grips and a thumb slug is going to be included anyways.
If the limited edition ball they're developing has the XFS coverstock on it I can't see how it could be a bust. It's hard to imagine the core being that different or providing a totally different reaction. I'm probably just going to wait for that. If the prop shop perks are contingent upon the new balls being drilled that will probably keep the number of limited edition balls showing up on ebay down too. It will be really interesting to see how much those end up going for though. ;D
I thought it was kind of odd that they're excluding the Venom Cobra from the exchange process, but at the same time I guess they want people actually buying their newest release.
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I thought it was kind of odd that they're excluding the Venom Cobra from the exchange process, but at the same time I guess they want people actually buying their newest release.
That was my take. From my perspective, if I was going to trade in and wanted a new ball immediately, I would not be doing it for one of the lowest cost balls in the line (no matter how new it is). I'd be looking at one of the Primals, or the Paranoia or one of the Revolts. That said, my son will be trading in and will wait for the Limited Edition. He has no immediate need.
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[/quote]
Seems like a pretty solid plan from Motiv's end. The bit about pro shops getting a new ball for every 8 (or lower) Jackals turned in is a pretty nice incentive for them, especially if a pair of grips and a thumb slug is going to be included anyways.
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How is this considered a perk? I must be reading the release wrong. How I'm seeing this is that Motiv is expecting the PS to drill the repalcements for free and for every 8 they drill, they get a ball.
From a customer service standpoint for the pro shop I guess I can understand drilling them for free but will they charge for grips/slugs? Will they give the customer a break on them? I really don't see this as being a perk.
For those that bought theres online and took to their pro shop to have drilled, these will probably wind up on Ebay or some 'bowling site' for sale. Would they pay for drillijg again when it wasn't their fault these balls were banned? I doubt it unless you're a ball whore and don't care.
For me, I think if they expect the PS to drill for free, it should be 1 free for every 3. I think that would offest the labor costs for drilling as well as throwing in the grips.
Just my .02
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Seems like a pretty solid plan from Motiv's end. The bit about pro shops getting a new ball for every 8 (or lower) Jackals turned in is a pretty nice incentive for them, especially if a pair of grips and a thumb slug is going to be included anyways.
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How is this considered a perk? I must be reading the release wrong. How I'm seeing this is that Motiv is expecting the PS to drill the repalcements for free and for every 8 they drill, they get a ball.
From a customer service standpoint for the pro shop I guess I can understand drilling them for free but will they charge for grips/slugs? Will they give the customer a break on them? I really don't see this as being a perk.
For those that bought theres online and took to their pro shop to have drilled, these will probably wind up on Ebay or some 'bowling site' for sale. Would they pay for drillijg again when it wasn't their fault these balls were banned? I doubt it unless you're a ball whore and don't care.
For me, I think if they expect the PS to drill for free, it should be 1 free for every 3. I think that would offest the labor costs for drilling as well as throwing in the grips.
Just my .02
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I agree, drilling for approximately $15 per ball is unacceptable. The pro shop that I work at will not be doing it for that. We only sold a couple of those balls and will make sure that our customers are taken care of. Shame on Motiv for devaluing what we do as a PSO.
And this business where Motiv is trying to get them reinstated. It is estimated that over 1/2 of the balls are most likely illegal. They just need to stop wasting money trying to get the balls reinstated and move on. I still believe that Motiv is at fault here because they were told 2.5 weeks ahead of the ban and could have gotten in front of this with the public and had a plan. They pushed the limits and got caught end of story, move on already.
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Track
Mike Mineman's shop in St Clair Bowl (Fairview Heights, Il) charges $50 for a blank reactive, plus grips and slug costs. Call it even on the grips and slug, but to get 1 ball for free for every 8 drilled, for Mike to make the same as normal, he would have to sell that 1 free ball for $400 (before drilling costs added).
PLUS....Mike is now also taking the extra step of drilling out the USBC logo on the returned Jackal.
PLUS....Mike is now also taking the extra step of taking pictures of the old Jackal
PLUS....Mike is now also taking the extra step of uploading of said pictures to Motiv's website
PLUS....Mike is also now dealing with upset customers.
Mike might get $250 drilled out of the ball, so subtract what he would charge for a ball brought in, and we are back to right around $200
To have to drill 8 balls to get the one free, that means Mike would be getting $25 for each ball drilled.
So Mike is supposed to take at a minimum 4 extra steps to drill the replacement ball AND take a 50% haircut on what he would have normally charged?
I agree...its nice to get something, but it needs to be worthwhile as well.
So here is the bigger question...what if my pro shop drills 14 or 15 replacements....do you mean to tell me that he is only going to get ONE free ball because it is 1 for every 8 drilled? If so, then that is even worse.
How about the smaller shop that ends up with only 5 or 6 or 7 redemptions....no free ball at all for the shop? So now we are back to the shop either charging the customer for the drill fee because the shop is getting nothing from Motiv, or the shop is eating the drill fee AND taking several extra steps to satisfy Motiv's requirements...
So in the end, I agree Track. 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 sounds much better.
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Seems like a pretty solid plan from Motiv's end. The bit about pro shops getting a new ball for every 8 (or lower) Jackals turned in is a pretty nice incentive for them, especially if a pair of grips and a thumb slug is going to be included anyways.
How is this considered a perk? I must be reading the release wrong. How I'm seeing this is that Motiv is expecting the PS to drill the repalcements for free and for every 8 they drill, they get a ball.
From a customer service standpoint for the pro shop I guess I can understand drilling them for free but will they charge for grips/slugs? Will they give the customer a break on them? I really don't see this as being a perk.
For those that bought theres online and took to their pro shop to have drilled, these will probably wind up on Ebay or some 'bowling site' for sale. Would they pay for drillijg again when it wasn't their fault these balls were banned? I doubt it unless you're a ball whore and don't care.
For me, I think if they expect the PS to drill for free, it should be 1 free for every 3. I think that would offest the labor costs for drilling as well as throwing in the grips.
Just my .02
I didn't take the statement as Motiv expecting pro shops to give free drilling. I think the intent was to supplement pro shop's drilling fees with free ball (for every 8 drilled) in the hopes they give the bowlers a break on those fees. If I charge $40 to drill, then with Motiv's incentive, maybe I will charge those getting replacements $20.
And I am willing to bet Motiv didn't include the Venom Cobra because they do not yet have the inventory of that ball. Motiv may be devoting manufacturing time to the replacement LE ball and slightly halting new releases until a batch of LE balls are ready for testing.
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Nice response. I can't read it because the image is blocked when I click on the link provided for whatever reason by my browser. So all I have to go off of is when someone said a 1 for 8.
Have a nice day!
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At the end of the statement it states that if you have less than 8 drilled they will send a lower price point ball to the shop instead of a high price point ball.
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Thanks Cory! Appreciate the info.
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I didn't take the statement as Motiv expecting pro shops to give free drilling. I think the intent was to supplement pro shop's drilling fees with free ball (for every 8 drilled) in the hopes they give the bowlers a break on those fees. If I charge $40 to drill, then with Motiv's incentive, maybe I will charge those getting replacements $20.
And I am willing to bet Motiv didn't include the Venom Cobra because they do not yet have the inventory of that ball. Motiv may be devoting manufacturing time to the replacement LE ball and slightly halting new releases until a batch of LE balls are ready for testing.
This is more along the lines of what I was getting at. I don't think and have never thought the pro shops should be drilling stuff for free. That's not what I got out of the release from Motiv either, but everybody reads things differently. With slugs and grips being included in the box for replacement balls the drillers won't have to include them in the total cost of redrilling the ball which should appease most bowlers affected.
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L3nn0n
From the very beginning I have stated that Motiv should pay for all drilling expenses on any replacement balls. By only comping 1 ball for every 8 drilled (HP I guess) I demonstrated that a pro shop that normally charges $50 for a blank is LOSING money, so either the PSO is going to eat the difference OR the customer has to pay the rest, which I am on the record for from the beginning as stating that Motiv should pick up the entire balance of any drills on the replacements.
In my opinion, what has ruined this country (assuming you are from the USA) is the fact that we do not hold folks accountable when their actions and their actions alone harm others. Motiv harmed the bowler, and the bowler should be made whole, not hoping the PSO doesn't ask for more $$ from the customer or hoping the customer doesn't mind picking up the difference.
You are entitled to your opinion, and I have mine on this subject. Sorry we don't agree.
Have a nice day!
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In my opinion, what has ruined this country (assuming you are from the USA) is the fact that we do not hold folks accountable when their actions and their actions alone harm others. Motiv harmed the bowler, and the bowler should be made whole, not hoping the PSO doesn't ask for more $$ from the customer or hoping the customer doesn't mind picking up the difference.
Wowzers, well said. And your financial analysis of the burden on the proshop guy is spot on.
Motiv is doing the minimum it needs to -- nothing more. There is no need for anyone to go off the edge pretending otherwise.
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It appears that Motiv is only going to manufacture one ball (Jackal Carnage, solid) to replace either the Jackal (Pearl) or the Jackal Carnage (solid). It also appear Motiv has decided not to manufacture a new Jackal (Pearl). Anyone that has a Jackal only resource is to replace it with another ball in their current line up or wait till they make a stronger pearl ball.
So what are the options for those that bought the Jackal for heavy oil & only want a pearl cover stock?
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It appears that Motiv is only going to manufacture one ball (Jackal Carnage, solid) to replace either the Jackal (Pearl) or the Jackal Carnage (solid). It also appear Motiv has decided not to manufacture a new Jackal (Pearl). Anyone that has a Jackal only resource is to replace it with another ball in their current line up or wait till they make a stronger pearl ball.
So what are the options for those that bought the Jackal for heavy oil & only want a pearl cover stock?
up the grit of the LE surface? We don't even know what the LE will be, solid or pearl. Just wait.
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It appears that Motiv is only going to manufacture one ball (Jackal Carnage, solid) to replace either the Jackal (Pearl) or the Jackal Carnage (solid). It also appear Motiv has decided not to manufacture a new Jackal (Pearl). Anyone that has a Jackal only resource is to replace it with another ball in their current line up or wait till they make a stronger pearl ball.
So what are the options for those that bought the Jackal for heavy oil & only want a pearl cover stock?
Probably getting an immediate replacement and selling or trading it in for a ball from a different company. If you want a strong pearl that can handle heavy oil I don't think there's anything in the Motiv lineup that comes anywhere close to fitting the bill.
But like the post above this one said we don't really know any details about the new ball they're developing, so it may very well be a pearl. I'm kind of doubting that will be the case though. Maybe a hybrid coverstock if anything.
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up the grit of the LE surface? We don't even know what the LE will be, solid or pearl. Just wait.
Exactly. So no matter what coverstock Motiv chooses, some bowlers are not going to get a close replacement. And they're going to have to wait until the Fall to find out.....
It's a bad situation for Motiv, and they have limited ball choice options for keeping affected bowlers happy. I was however hoping they would offer proshops better incentives for their time and labor that will have to be expended. Unfortunately, they're falling short.
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As a Jackal original owner, I'm hoping the LE will be a hybrid that will work well at 4000 grit. My other option is to wait and keep the Jackal.
MOTIV/Staffer Question: If we wait past the May deadline for replacement hoping the Jackal gets reinstated, but it doesn't, will there be another replacement program? I am guessing that they would offer this, maybe they will have a new non-LE ball by then for the top of the lineup that fills the Jackal spot on the ball guide? But how long before this would happen?
Should I take the LE and hope it matches the Jackal with a surface adjustment, or wait hoping the Jackal stays legal or get a chance at an even better replacement?
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L3nn0n
From the very beginning I have stated that Motiv should pay for all drilling expenses on any replacement balls. By only comping 1 ball for every 8 drilled (HP I guess) I demonstrated that a pro shop that normally charges $50 for a blank is LOSING money, so either the PSO is going to eat the difference OR the customer has to pay the rest, which I am on the record for from the beginning as stating that Motiv should pick up the entire balance of any drills on the replacements.
In my opinion, what has ruined this country (assuming you are from the USA) is the fact that we do not hold folks accountable when their actions and their actions alone harm others. Motiv harmed the bowler, and the bowler should be made whole, not hoping the PSO doesn't ask for more $$ from the customer or hoping the customer doesn't mind picking up the difference.
You are entitled to your opinion, and I have mine on this subject. Sorry we don't agree.
Have a nice day!
Out of curiosity, do you feel it is the manufacturers responsibility to pay the drilling expenses when a ball cracks and is replaced? What about those rare occasions when a batch of bowling balls does not meet expectations and the manufacturer does good by replacing the ball?
Where in the warranty information does it state the manufacturer is responsible for drilling charges in the event the ball does not meet its obligation?
I understand people are upset they may have to pay to drill their replacement ball. And I can understand pro shops being upset since they have to jump through hoops to meet the demands of Motiv. Perhaps customers will stop buying Motiv and perhaps pro shops will stop carrying Motiv. It is your right to affect change with your wallet. If you feel Motiv is doing things incorrectly, just don't buy their product.
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spmcgivern
I think you are pretty close to spot on with your assessment. Also, this time of year pro shops are not as busy as during the season and in no way do I devaluate the services they provide, but Wowzers (the king of negative thought process) is again overstating part of the situation. The most important thing for the pro shop operator is his time. IT HAS VALUE! The time to lay out a ball and drill it is the most important issue. The wear and tear on drills bits is something to be considered, but not huge. The time to drill a shallow hole to take out the serial number is miniscule. The time to take a picture and attach it to an email is small. When remembering the ball was bought from this shop, it seems Motiv's offer is reasonable. If the ball was bought somewhere else (most likely like Wowzers) it would seem reasonable a reduced drilling fee would help offset the pro shop's cost, but keep a customer. Most of the guys barking are guys who bought the ball from an online dealer and paid to have it drilled. They took the risk, now they're paying for it. It's hard to believe most pro shops that sold the ball are charging for drilling the replacement. Wowzers enjoys making this a bigger issue than it is. He, as has been said before, is probably projecting this negativity because he is secretly a shill for another company wanting to hurt Motiv because of the unbridled success they have been achieving!!
Wowzers, how does this differ from a ball that cracks and is warrantied by the company? Does a pro shop usually charge for drilling the replacement ball if they had sold the original. That wasn't the pro shop's fault either.
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Spm,
I do NOT think a manufacturer should pay for a cracked ball, because we do no tknow why the crack occurred and who is responsible. Was it dull drill bits in the pro shop causing excess heat, how about the pro shop operator drilling too fast, was the fingers or another hole drilled too close to the pin? Was it a manufacturing error or issue that caused the ball to crack, maybe a hole got caught on a screw in the pit at the bowling alley...???
Many reasons I have seen a ball crack from. We cannot pinpoint the issue as to why the cracking occurred.
However, every other ball of the same model is still USBC certified and can be used in any competition.
The Jackals had a manufacturing issue occur at the factory that caused the entire model to lose certification. Nobody's error other than Motiv. Motiv sold a ball that we thought was sanctioned for use in competition, but in reality, the ball was out of spec.
Large difference to me.
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Looks like the form is up. On the Motiv homepage there's a small orange button link in the upper right hand corner that says BALL Exchange. When you click on it there's a list of countries at the bottom of the page, pick yours and fill out the form.
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Spm,
I do NOT think a manufacturer should pay for a cracked ball, because we do no tknow why the crack occurred and who is responsible. Was it dull drill bits in the pro shop causing excess heat, how about the pro shop operator drilling too fast, was the fingers or another hole drilled too close to the pin? Was it a manufacturing error or issue that caused the ball to crack, maybe a hole got caught on a screw in the pit at the bowling alley...???
Many reasons I have seen a ball crack from. We cannot pinpoint the issue as to why the cracking occurred.
However, every other ball of the same model is still USBC certified and can be used in any competition.
The Jackals had a manufacturing issue occur at the factory that caused the entire model to lose certification. Nobody's error other than Motiv. Motiv sold a ball that we thought was sanctioned for use in competition, but in reality, the ball was out of spec.
Large difference to me.
Agree
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As a Jackal original owner, I'm hoping the LE will be a hybrid that will work well at 4000 grit. My other option is to wait and keep the Jackal.
MOTIV/Staffer Question: If we wait past the May deadline for replacement hoping the Jackal gets reinstated, but it doesn't, will there be another replacement program? I am guessing that they would offer this, maybe they will have a new non-LE ball by then for the top of the lineup that fills the Jackal spot on the ball guide? But how long before this would happen?
Should I take the LE and hope it matches the Jackal with a surface adjustment, or wait hoping the Jackal stays legal or get a chance at an even better replacement?
Any thoughts?
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Steven
Thanks for the reply...just saw it. This does put the PSO in a tight bind....charge the normal fee and give the customer a 50% discount (assuming the PSO is able to recoup the other 50% of the drill fee through the sale of any reimbursement balls).
Pro shop is whole (assuming the PSO can get enough out of the reimbursement ball) but the customer is out $$
OR
PSO takes what he/she can get out of the reimbursement ball(s) and eats the rest. It is a bad business model to increase your workload (have to take pics of the ball, drill a hole in the Jackal to remove the USBC logo, upload pics to Motiv's site, etc) and cut your revenue in half.
How many of you would go to work if the boss told you that today, you are going to get an extra 3 or 4 reports or jobs to perform, and oh yeah, you are going to perform them for 50% of your normal wage.
I am sure most if not everyone on here would say shove it, no way. But yet, that is almost the situation PSOs are being put in by Motiv right now.
In my opinion, what has ruined this country (assuming you are from the USA) is the fact that we do not hold folks accountable when their actions and their actions alone harm others. Motiv harmed the bowler, and the bowler should be made whole, not hoping the PSO doesn't ask for more $$ from the customer or hoping the customer doesn't mind picking up the difference.
Wowzers, well said. And your financial analysis of the burden on the proshop guy is spot on.
Motiv is doing the minimum it needs to -- nothing more. There is no need for anyone to go off the edge pretending otherwise.
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Todvan
I would not wait too long. If the deadline is approaching and nothing has been announced on the Jackals either being recertified or if they will 100% not be certified, I would move forward with submitting an exchange request. Worst possible situation would be for you to hold onto the ball, the redemption period ends and is not extended, the Jackals not get recertified, and you never submitted a request because you were holding out hope. You would then be stuck with a ball you cannot use in USBC competition.
I also think Motiv will know by May if the Jackals will be allowed or not. We shall see.
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For those of you PSO s maybe you should post a notice at the front window of your shops that you intend on charging full Disneyland price admission. Because your time is more valuable than keeping a customer who purchased a ball in good faith of being legal. Who may also be in mind to purchase another ball and pay the full cost of your private University of So Cal Tuition drilling.
I'm sure their are more capable drillers out in your locations who would be more appreciative of having those individuals and families walk in to see those well polished balls on the rack ready for some grubby finger holes drilled since Daddy may have a credit card burning a hole in his pocket from waiting for the new winter season releases. They may well receive future customers your so cynically ready to push away. Bonus for them.
Why not just list your shop on site if you plan on charging full price so those who read this thread can save the fuel it takes to travel to your shop. I personally would be happy to see those people treated like an appreciated customer elsewhere. That other shop will be happy to have that extra money in their hands for just PUNCHING UP 3 FINGER HOLES for same visit extra ball purchases. More foot traffic thru the doors for them. Especially during a time of constant down turn. Come to think of it. Just lock up, and put a sign on the door. OUT OF BUSINESS.
It's a shame that it would be a waste of your time to post a few pictures for customers whom had purchased a legal ball in good faith.
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Motiv isn't asking a shop to drill every ball in their inventory for $20 dollars. Most shops have likely sold 2-20 of these balls, a small number compared to how many balls a shop sells as a whole. Motiv is providing a slug and grips, the shop just has to give a bit of their time to drill the ball and keep a customer happy. My PSO is pretty busy but there's time when nothing is going on. I'm sure the 5-10 minutes to drill out the usbc logo and take a couple pictures of all the balls at once isn't going to kill the shop. If you're concerned with your shop's bottom line tell them what you want and have them drill it when they aren't busy, I rarely am at the shop when my stuff is actually drilled.
It's obviously not an ideal situation but shit happens. There's likely a lot of people who play in unsanctioned leagues and don't play tournaments who are going to simply take the opportunity to replace a ball with a bunch of games on it with something new.
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Apparently the last two posters have never been self employed, therefore they have no clue what it takes to run a successful business
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Apparently the last two posters have never been self employed, therefore they have no clue what it takes to run a successful business
I didn't say there's not a cost and that's it's a perfect solution, but having been involved in business my entire life there's one key and that's making sure the customer is happy. I would rather give up a few dollars especially when it is my time not material costs then I would about further annoying a customer.
If a shop is going to go under because they have to drill a handful of balls for less money then they need to look beyond Motiv for why their business isn't successful.
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For your information I am self employed. I also know that taking hit dos not mean losing your ass. There is an up side to making your customer welcome instead of a pariah for having to waste 15 minutes of your time that would otherwise be wasted sitting on ones duff waiting for some sucker to walk in the door to buy a $250 ball you only paid $110 for. Sitting outside getting a nicotine hit is worth $$$0. That extra upside is 80% they maybe willing to purchase another ball. Instead of wandering in to see what's on the "Wonder Wall" and shoot the breeze. Time spent doing those two things equals $$$0 dollars to your pocket and a waste of time you didn't make a dime. Or the extra tape roll, rosin bag and other crap marked up 200% sitting on display. If your time is that precious just close the doors and set up in your garage by appointment only. This way you'll have the time to nicotine up drink a brew and watch TV for 7 out of 8 hours that would other wise have been spent doing the same at shop. That 1 lonely hour is worth probably $360. $90 each for profit drilling 4 balls.
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Keeping the customer happy because of a fault the PSO did not commit?
How about Motiv keeps the customer happy that THEY caused an issue with. It wasn't the PSO who manufactured the ball out of USBC specs. It wasn't the PSO that had the ball uncertified. It wasn't the PSO that had to offer replacement balls. So where in that equation does it equal the PSO is required to do something because he/she screwed up? NOWHERE.
15 minutes to drill a ball huh? You need to go to a different pro shop. Before a new ball is drilled, the PSO should look at your current bowling balls to ensure your PAP has not changed, which might require you to go out and throw a few on the lanes. Let's make sure your grip is still good because the human hand is not static. As we grow older, we normally become less flexible and we may need an adjustment in span length and/or pitches. Did you lose or gain some weight since the last ball we drilled? You might need different sized holes or grip sizes to account for the change. The PSO then maps out the ball based upon the specs and the reaction you want. Probably should also weigh the ball to make sure the after drilled ball conforms with USBC specs. Need that bevel hit a little because the cut is too sharp, yep, the PSO does that after drilling as well.
Bottom line...if you want someone to spend 15 minutes punching 3 random holes in your ball, no wonder everyone thinks it is ok to either give away free drilling or reduced drilling.
If you want someone to know your game and the person to take time making sure that this next ball, that for some people might be the only ball bought new this season, is the right ball with the right fit, then find a qualified PSO that has an hour or more of time.
As for profit...there is overhead with the bowling alley...have employees? need to probably pay them a wage. Every pro shop I have ever went to, if you bought a ball from the PSO, future surface changes, quick cleaning on the spinner, coming out to watch you bowl with the new ball, and countless other items is included in that "profit". If being a PSO was so profitable, the industry would not be losing PSOs at an alarming rate.
More often today, the PSO is just a guy that can drill 3 holes in a ball, not a trained professional because everyone thinks the PSO should be able to live off of $20 a ball and feed his/her family and pay his/her bills.
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WOWZERS
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Spm,
I do NOT think a manufacturer should pay for a cracked ball, because we do no tknow why the crack occurred and who is responsible. Was it dull drill bits in the pro shop causing excess heat, how about the pro shop operator drilling too fast, was the fingers or another hole drilled too close to the pin? Was it a manufacturing error or issue that caused the ball to crack, maybe a hole got caught on a screw in the pit at the bowling alley...???
Many reasons I have seen a ball crack from. We cannot pinpoint the issue as to why the cracking occurred.
However, every other ball of the same model is still USBC certified and can be used in any competition.
The Jackals had a manufacturing issue occur at the factory that caused the entire model to lose certification. Nobody's error other than Motiv. Motiv sold a ball that we thought was sanctioned for use in competition, but in reality, the ball was out of spec.
Large difference to me.
Fair enough. Perhaps the reason for cracked balls is more of an unknown. But of all the causes you posed, only one was manufacturer's fault. In my opinion, I think 99% of cracked balls are not the fault of the manufacturer. Yet they are willing to replace the ball anyway. How many times have manufacturers replaced balls with finger holes close to the pin? How many times have manufacturers replaced balls that were left in extreme temperatures? Oh, but the bowler didn't do anything wrong.
Also, do you think manufacturer should replace a ball beyond the warranty? Motiv is doing that.
This is a special case where the fault is 100% on Motiv. I personally don't think it was intentional. I could see issues with core molds or density differences being the issue. I could also see application of the testing procedures as an issue also.
So should Motiv do more than just hand out new balls? Yes, I agree and they are doing that. Should Motiv refund all aspects of ball ownership? No, I don't think they should be required. My opinion. Plus, if a shop knows Motiv is covering the bill, how many less than honest shops are going to up the price a bit? Just a thought.
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Spm,
The cracked ball deal is tough. A manufacturer cannot verify the ball cracked because of a defect from them...but there is a warranty regardless. Per the warranty, that starts when the ball is sold to the consumer, not when the ball was produced. But I do think the manufacturer needs to be strict on the warranty. When your time runs out, sorry.
I would argue this is not a true warranty issue. A warranty issue means the product failed (broke). An item that falls into this category would be your TV breaking 2 or 3 weeks after purchase, the warranty says it is fixed for free. But the manufacturer does not replace every TV, or the part that broke on your TV on every TV, the manufacturer just fixes the ones that break within the warranty period.
This is different. The manufacturer failed to hit a spec and needs to replace the entire model. That to me is different than something breaking and needed to submit a warranty claim.
I had a Roto Loco Solid crack recently. This didn't cause the USBC to decertify the entire model, for bowlers to have to stop using the ball, and for Roto to send a replacement ball. This was a warranty issue.
You are correct on the PSO upping the price. I am all for the PSO to get what he or she normally would charge. To up the price because the PSO knows someone was repaying the entire fee is wrong and should not be tolerated, if it were to ever occur.
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As for profit...there is overhead with the bowling alley...have employees? need to probably pay them a wage. Every pro shop I have ever went to, if you bought a ball from the PSO, future surface changes, quick cleaning on the spinner, coming out to watch you bowl with the new ball, and countless other items is included in that "profit". If being a PSO was so profitable, the industry would not be losing PSOs at an alarming rate.
You keep the customer happy no matter what. If it's a very small cost to make sure they're happy you do it. You're acting as if this is make or break for most shops. The shop I go to drills 30+ balls a week which is impressive as he's not even in a bowling centre. He drills a lot of heavy oil balls and I'd be willing to bet he's drilled around 10 of these balls.
If they normally charge $50 to drill including grips and slugs and you're getting a ball which you all value at about $20 a person they are losing less than $30 of their time. If you estimate the grips and slugs at $5 dollars the shop brings in $25 less dollars. So they make $250 less on redrilling these 10 new balls but the customers are happy and I doubt the shop is losing money as they are likely covering the costs associated with drilling the balls. When it comes to the overhead issue you fail to consider whether these 10 balls would have been drilled at all, if the people would have kept using the jackals and not bought new balls then the fixed costs of the shop don't change nor does profitability. Many of these shops have down time so it's unlikely they are giving up other profitable work to redrill these balls. Where a shop would have lost out is if these 10 people were going to buy new balls at full pop and instead are getting a free replacement that the shop has to drill for less.
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Big
I agree 100% on the part about the PSO losing out because instead of the customer purchasing a new ball, now the customer gets the replacement ball and the shop loses a sale.
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Sure glad some of you are not in the pro shop business and if you are, I can see why they lock doors and customers look for better shops. When a shop prices balls sold/drilled through them, smart shops take in consideration that they may have to drill a defective ball on occasion. This just happens to be an anomaly. So does a shop owner charge and piss the customer off and lose that customer or take care of that customer? Then some say pro shop is losing out on a sale. You act like customers are knocking your door down and you have no time to drill replacemnt balls. If that is the case then obviously you are doing a tremendous business and drilling these replacemnt balls will not hurt your pocket book. If you have more balls coming in from outside sources, maybe one should relook at their pricing strategy and/or provided a service that gives them a reason to purchase through you. All of my customers purchased through me so I am taking care of them and I will reap the benefits in future sales from these customers.
Motiv is a damn good company with great products and customer service. They are in my top 2 sellers and I will do my part to ensure my customers are happy and will continue to purchase their products as most were by recommendations from me and my staff and why make a customer suffer when they chose a ball based on a recommendation.
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Below is a reprint of the warranty information on Motiv's website (emphasis mine):
BOWLING BALL WARRANTY
1-YEAR LIMITED WARRANTY: We take great pride in the quality and performance of MOTIV® bowling balls and we warrant them to be free of defects in materials and workmanship for a period of one (1) year from the date of purchase. During the warranty period, MOTIV® will repair or replace, at its discretion, any bowling ball that is found to be defective in material or workmanship, and this shall constitute the purchaser's sole and exclusive remedy under this warranty.
MOTIV® Bowling shall in no case be responsible for any damage caused by the following: ball plugging; installation of inserts for finger and/or thumb holes; a bridge less than 1/4-inch between finger holes; a bridge weakened by insufficient lateral pitches; sharp edges around any drilled hole that have not been properly beveled or sanded; riser pin placement less than 1-inch distance to any hole; damage caused by pinsetters, ball returns, gutters, polishing machines, or other equipment; exposure to extreme temperatures (above 125°F or below 40°F); use of chemical products not manufactured by MOTIV®; or bowler abuse. This warranty does not cover the cost of freight, measuring, or drilling of a replacement ball.
Claims should be presented at the point of initial purchase with proper documentation to validate purchase and claims. To contact MOTIV® Bowling directly with questions, please email us.
One can claim the Jackal being out of spec, and thus deemed illegal by USBC, as a defect in workmanship. And because of this the bowler accepts the warranty does not cover the cost of freight, measuring, or drilling of replacement ball. Motiv is actually going above and beyond their own warranty by providing freight and replacement inserts and slugs.
Once again, I understand if people are upset. But I would have thought at the beginning bowlers would be more understanding of the situation.
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Sure glad some of you are not in the pro shop business and if you are, I can see why they lock doors and customers look for better shops. When a shop prices balls sold/drilled through them, smart shops take in consideration that they may have to drill a defective ball on occasion. This just happens to be an anomaly. So does a shop owner charge and piss the customer off and lose that customer or take care of that customer? Then some say pro shop is losing out on a sale. You act like customers are knocking your door down and you have no time to drill replacemnt balls. If that is the case then obviously you are doing a tremendous business and drilling these replacemnt balls will not hurt your pocket book. If you have more balls coming in from outside sources, maybe one should relook at their pricing strategy and/or provided a service that gives them a reason to purchase through you. All of my customers purchased through me so I am taking care of them and I will reap the benefits in future sales from these customers.
Motiv is a damn good company with great products and customer service. They are in my top 2 sellers and I will do my part to ensure my customers are happy and will continue to purchase their products as most were by recommendations from me and my staff and why make a customer suffer when they chose a ball based on a recommendation.
So shines a good deed in a weary world.
-W. Wonka
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Sure glad some of you are not in the pro shop business and if you are, I can see why they lock doors and customers look for better shops. When a shop prices balls sold/drilled through them, smart shops take in consideration that they may have to drill a defective ball on occasion. This just happens to be an anomaly. So does a shop owner charge and piss the customer off and lose that customer or take care of that customer? Then some say pro shop is losing out on a sale. You act like customers are knocking your door down and you have no time to drill replacemnt balls. If that is the case then obviously you are doing a tremendous business and drilling these replacemnt balls will not hurt your pocket book. If you have more balls coming in from outside sources, maybe one should relook at their pricing strategy and/or provided a service that gives them a reason to purchase through you. All of my customers purchased through me so I am taking care of them and I will reap the benefits in future sales from these customers.
Motiv is a damn good company with great products and customer service. They are in my top 2 sellers and I will do my part to ensure my customers are happy and will continue to purchase their products as most were by recommendations from me and my staff and why make a customer suffer when they chose a ball based on a recommendation.
+1 Exactly, keep the customer happy. It may not be the PSO fault but it doesn't mean they can't be part of the solution and reap the benefits later.
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Sure glad some of you are not in the pro shop business and if you are, I can see why they lock doors and customers look for better shops. When a shop prices balls sold/drilled through them, smart shops take in consideration that they may have to drill a defective ball on occasion. This just happens to be an anomaly. So does a shop owner charge and piss the customer off and lose that customer or take care of that customer? Then some say pro shop is losing out on a sale. You act like customers are knocking your door down and you have no time to drill replacemnt balls. If that is the case then obviously you are doing a tremendous business and drilling these replacemnt balls will not hurt your pocket book. If you have more balls coming in from outside sources, maybe one should relook at their pricing strategy and/or provided a service that gives them a reason to purchase through you. All of my customers purchased through me so I am taking care of them and I will reap the benefits in future sales from these customers.
Motiv is a damn good company with great products and customer service. They are in my top 2 sellers and I will do my part to ensure my customers are happy and will continue to purchase their products as most were by recommendations from me and my staff and why make a customer suffer when they chose a ball based on a recommendation.
+1 Exactly, keep the customer happy. It may not be the PSO fault but it doesn't mean they can't be part of the solution and reap the benefits later.
+1 Easier to keep a customer happy than to whine about it in their presence.
If you don't like what your getting from Motiv which is more foot traffic in the door, then you should just put a sign on the door that Motiv replacement customers are not welcome in your shop since your not being fully reimbursed for your time at mechanic labor time of $140 an hour.
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PSO shouldn't whine about it in the customer's presence. That is unprofessional. The beef is with Motiv, not the customer as he/she did not cause or ask for this issue to occur.
Also, it is not necessarily more foot traffic, and in the long run, as Big mentioned, could cost the PSO a potential sale. Instead of purchasing a new ball, PSO gets the replacement ball and is out the door.
So this is not a great big way of producing unexpected traffic for the PSO.
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So if a busy shop has say 24 exchanges on balls they get to spend basically 3 full days (yes it's gonna average an hour per customer or close to it) and get 3 balls, from a company now with a tarnished image, to sell to get compensation for the 3 days of work.
I'd be willing to bet Motiv didn't consult with many shops to see if this arrangement would be acceptable.
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I would bet not as well itsallaboutme.
Sounds like some good compensation, huh.
Yeah, sarcasm meter was peaking on my last comment.
If it takes any less than an hour, probably need to find a different PSO.
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So if a busy shop has say 24 exchanges on balls they get to spend basically 3 full days (yes it's gonna average an hour per customer or close to it) and get 3 balls, from a company now with a tarnished image, to sell to get compensation for the 3 days of work.
I'd be willing to bet Motiv didn't consult with many shops to see if this arrangement would be acceptable.
Say this shop receives 3 free Primal Rage Remixes from Motiv for the 24 balls that they drilled under the exchange program. The shop sells these for $210 each, so they receive $630 total. That $630 in revenue for 27 total hours (24 hours for the exchanges and 3 hours for the Remixes) isn't enough to compensate for the work? That amounts to almost $24 per hour compensation (or $26.25 reimbursement for each exchange ball drilled...however you would rather see it.) I get that it isn't the normal rate for the shop may typically see, but it is still a reasonable rate. Plus, it isn't as though this will be a reduced rate for all future business...it is just this one instance for the exchange program balls.
I have used several Pro Shops over the past 20+ years, and once they have my measurements it takes them 25-30 minutes to layout and drill a ball (Grips and slug.) My current PSO always asks if I want to wait while the ball is drilled. I never wait and usually go back the following week sometime.
A handful of really busy shops may have to work a few hours overtime during the exchange period, but every job requires overtime now and then.
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Bowler19525, $25 might seem like a nice wage but it does not keep the lights on, insurance paid, tools sharp, etc... The list goes out a long ways what the money needs to cover. Not worth it for $25/hr. Also, if Motiv does not send me the grips and slug brand that I use then I don't want what they are sending. We will be charging for the extras that go into drilling a ball for a customer.
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As Cory said, it's not nearly enough. And there is way more time dealing with people than the time just putting holes in the ball. So an hour a piece is a much closer estimate.
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With all the time most of you have spent complaining about lost revenue from potentially handling a Motiv return. You could have already printed out and posted on your doors that you do not want to participate in the Motiv ball exchange.
Dear customer it is with great regret we will not participate in the Motiv ball exchange since this will cause a financial hardship that you as a customer will not pay full price for our services or purchase another ball or other crap in our store that we mark up 200%. However you are welcome to waltz on in and shoot the breeze with us and look at the wonder wall of high performance sponges that will need a replacement after 150 games.
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With all the time most of you have spent complaining about lost revenue from potentially handling a Motiv return. You could have already printed out and posted on your doors that you do not want to participate in the Motiv ball exchange.
Dear customer it is with great regret we will not participate in the Motiv ball exchange since this will cause a financial hardship that you as a customer will not pay full price for our services or purchase another ball or other crap in our store that we mark up 200%. However you are welcome to waltz on in and shoot the breeze with us and look at the wonder wall of high performance sponges that will need a replacement after 150 games.
HA HA I don't care what you say, that there's funny
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Is it me or am I reading the loudest complaints about how PSOs get screwed by people who are not PSOs?
(That's actually an honest question. I have no idea who does what around here.)
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For me it's quite simple.I have ran my plumbing business since 1989.Not once have I needed to advertise to get business and stay really busy.If one of my employee's makes a mistake, I alone eat the cost of what it takes to fix it and make it right. I don't ask the customer, contractor or employee to cover any cost of the repair.To me that has been a great way to do things in my business. If motiv wants to "Pass some of the buck" on to the PSO'S that's just stupid in my opinion .Own the fu*k up,fix it and move on !!
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For me it's quite simple.I have ran my plumbing business since 1989.Not once have I needed to advertise to get business and stay really busy.If one of my employee's makes a mistake, I alone eat the cost of what it takes to fix it and make it right. I don't ask the customer, contractor or employee to cover any cost of the repair.To me that has been a great way to do things in my business. If motiv wants to "Pass some of the buck" on to the PSO'S that's just stupid in my opinion .Own the fu*k up,fix it and move on !!
Well said!
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For me it's quite simple.I have ran my plumbing business since 1989.Not once have I needed to advertise to get business and stay really busy.If one of my employee's makes a mistake, I alone eat the cost of what it takes to fix it and make it right. I don't ask the customer, contractor or employee to cover any cost of the repair.To me that has been a great way to do things in my business. If motiv wants to "Pass some of the buck" on to the PSO'S that's just stupid in my opinion .Own the fu*k up,fix it and move on !!
Since 1989 have you ever had a defect in materials that you installed where you simply replaced the defective part for your customer to make them happy? Were you compensated by the manufacturer fully for the defective part and your labour?
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In plumbing when you sell a customer a defective product through no fault of your own, it gets replaced at no charge to the customer. The customer will almost always have something else that needs looked at. Be it a slow drain, toilet constantly running, garbage disposal buzzing before spinning up not enough hot water from water heater. You're up selling your good service presence by being there. High percent of time your going to sell some service to that customer. $135 cost to you for a cheap disposal marked up x2.3 $310 not including labor or additional replacement parts that job adds up to more than just gas money. Spend half the day at customers home you walk away with at least a grand for going out to a warranty issue. You personally can't say doesn't happen on occasion.
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Defective parts get returned to supply house. Plumber doesn't always eat the cost of replacement parts. Just the time he gets out to travel and fuel. Fuel which is surcharged part of service contract when first installed on primary trip.
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Snakster, it's you. I've been in the bowling industry in some capacity for over 30 years.
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No, actually I really don't care. Motiv makes a product, a bowling ball. They sell you the product, and are not responsible for what you do with it afterwards. If you choose to have holes put in it and throw it down a lane at some pins, that's on you. I don't see how they could be responsible for something they have nothing to do with.
So if you're in the plumbing business, and someone buys their own disposal, and pays you to install it, if the disposal is then a piece of junk, and they get the disposal replaced, and contact you once again to install it, is that your responsibility? No, but would you probably install the replacement for free? Probably. This seems to me to be like a warranty issue. If there's a warranty issue (when someone buys the ball from us at least), we get a replacement, and drill it for free. Yeah you take a "loss" but it's good PR, good customer service, and just the right thing to do. Now I've only sold a handful of each Jackal, so I'm not going to be screaming over this or extremely put out, but those who bought a Jackal from me will get the replacement drilled with any included inserts for free. Good PR and customer service goes a looooong way. Well further than getting bent over a couple grips and 10 minutes of press time.
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No, actually I really don't care. Motiv makes a product, a bowling ball. They sell you the product, and are not responsible for what you do with it afterwards. If you choose to have holes put in it and throw it down a lane at some pins, that's on you. I don't see how they could be responsible for something they have nothing to do with.
So if you're in the plumbing business, and someone buys their own disposal, and pays you to install it, if the disposal is then a piece of junk, and they get the disposal replaced, and contact you once again to install it, is that your responsibility? No, but would you probably install the replacement for free? Probably. This seems to me to be like a warranty issue. If there's a warranty issue (when someone buys the ball from us at least), we get a replacement, and drill it for free. Yeah you take a "loss" but it's good PR, good customer service, and just the right thing to do. Now I've only sold a handful of each Jackal, so I'm not going to be screaming over this or extremely put out, but those who bought a Jackal from me will get the replacement drilled with any included inserts for free. Good PR and customer service goes a looooong way. Well further than getting bent over a couple grips and 10 minutes of press time.
Yea I see it this way when your customers get replacement balls or warranty replacements usually the PSO takes care of their customer for free but now motiv is paying something instead of letting PSO take all the heat which is nothing but a bonus.
If we are bringing different businesses up I hope y'all don't mind my example. I see it like PSO are working like public defenders now instead of being a lawyer who gets to choose his fees. Being a public defender means a constant flow of work and $$$ coming in.
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I had the privilege of working for a really good PSO when I was a kid and he taught me something that has stuck with me. He used to give his customers grips, rosin bags, tape, towels, etc so one day I asked why he gave stuff away for free? He told me I want to drill their balls for the next 20 years so don't nickel and dime our customers. You guys can complain about it or look at it as an opportunity to make a customer for life.
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Snakster, it's you. I've been in the bowling industry in some capacity for over 30 years.
I don't count you among the biggest complainers.
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I've only had one time where I had a bunch of 2" pvc that wasn't the right diameter. We caught it qwik and returned the left over batch for a new batch .We replaced the pipe on the job with a new batch and just thru the old away .I didn't cost me much on that endeavor
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Motiv is going to do whatever they want to do with this situation. Different companies, especially big business companies usually tries to find the cheapest way out for their bottom line.Im a small company that would never work for a big company, and I never have for those reasons .I'm old school, you own it and fix it
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At some point Wowzers, are you going to shut the hell up? Pro shop guys on this site are not buying what you're trying to sell, because they are real businessmen who know what it takes to make a living in the bowling biz. You on the other hand are just a guy who didn't buy a Carnage from a pro shop or are constantly ranting about Motiv's handling of this, as an agent for some other company!!! Fess up on which one it is and I'll have at least a small amount of respect for you!!
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Hey TD
I work in a pro shop and am good friends with several other pro shop owners.
Also, I have had several folks on here agree with me, they just don't want to get in the public and start in with people like you who will beat people down when they have an opinion you or people like you do not agree with.
Finally, as I have told at least 2 others, I will state my opinion and if you agree, great, if not, oh well, it is a free country and I am allowed to say what I want, especially my feelings on this subject. You don't have to agree, you don't have to like it, and if it hurts you that bad, block me so you don't have to read it.
As far as respect, I never asked for any and I will probably never know you from a brick in the wall, so your opinion about me means little to me. I will state my stance on any and every subject and that is my right. Don't like it? TOUGH!
Have a nice day!
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Hey TD
I work in a pro shop and am good friends with several other pro shop owners.
Also, I have had several folks on here agree with me, they just don't want to get in the public and start in with people like you who will beat people down when they have an opinion you or people like you do not agree with.
Finally, as I have told at least 2 others, I will state my opinion and if you agree, great, if not, oh well, it is a free country and I am allowed to say what I want, especially my feelings on this subject. You don't have to agree, you don't have to like it, and if it hurts you that bad, block me so you don't have to read it.
As far as respect, I never asked for any and I will probably never know you from a brick in the wall, so your opinion about me means little to me. I will state my stance on any and every subject and that is my right. Don't like it? TOUGH!
Have a nice day!
WOWZER .. well said!
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Wow it went from 0 to 100 real quick. Shiet got personal on a bowling forum. Although I don't agree with wowsers second part of the argument and I feel like motiv handle it like a boss, it is very unnecessary to talk about his life and especially kids..
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Ken
It is ok. He made fun of someone else as well, someone who has been in the industry a long time. Who are those he is making fun of? People that have a different opinion than him. There are some people in the world that are so feeble minded that the moment someone opposes them, the only defense is to try to put someone else down in any fashion rather than just debating. If the other person quits, the feeble minded person wins by default.
L3's opinion about best is only an opinion and the person is entitled to it...there are plenty others who do not see Motiv as a good company. I personally like quite a few of their products and believe they do produce good stuff.
L3 - Handled perfectly...there are plenty others on here that see otherwise. Read any other bowling sites? Plenty on the other sites that are not happy with the way Motiv has handled this.
Doesn't change my mind about the situation at hand.
So once again, because I don't agree with you, go ahead back to the personal attacks. Not going to work.
Might as well block me because I am not going anywhere.
Have a nice day
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How do we BAN this Lemmon guy?
You can't. The most you can do is click on the Report To Moderator link on the bottom right of his posts (only available if you are logged in). At one time, if they got a lot of reports on many posts, they would review the posts to see if the Reports were justified and only then take action. That would probably be deletion of the post and a warning.
On topic, I like a lot of Motiv's balls and hope that they can satisfy the majority of the customers affected by this ban.
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I wouldn't trust some of you who are claiming to be PSO's with running a lemonade stand.
I work in sales, and in an industry where I am the "middleman" between the product producer and the buyer. If this happened to me, I would take extra good care of the customers with a wide smile on my face. And it would be lot more costly to me than the amounts you guys are talking about.
The value of just 1 one of the customers you are taking care of telling other people that you took care of the ball, drilling, photos, etc (great customer service) is much higher than this one time hit you are going to take.
If you don't see that, I think you lack foresight and an understanding of how a competitive industry works.
Remember this, it is 5 times more expensive to obtain a new customer than retain an existing one. If a PSO values the extra $25/ball (roughly) that they can get immediately over building long term customers and positive publicity, that is the definition of shortsightedness.
In summary, this is a crappy situation for the PSO's...but you can turn your short term hit into long term value if you apply some critical thinking.
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I don't remember anywhere that anybody said anything about not taking care of a customer. At least I didn't. But that doesn't mean anybody has to be happy drilling replacement balls for essentially $17 each. I would rather Motiv do nothing and tarnish their reputation further than have to take one for the team to make them look better.
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I wouldn't trust some of you who are claiming to be PSO's with running a lemonade stand.
I work in sales, and in an industry where I am the "middleman" between the product producer and the buyer. If this happened to me, I would take extra good care of the customers with a wide smile on my face. And it would be lot more costly to me than the amounts you guys are talking about.
The value of just 1 one of the customers you are taking care of telling other people that you took care of the ball, drilling, photos, etc (great customer service) is much higher than this one time hit you are going to take.
If you don't see that, I think you lack foresight and an understanding of how a competitive industry works.
Remember this, it is 5 times more expensive to obtain a new customer than retain an existing one. If a PSO values the extra $25/ball (roughly) that they can get immediately over building long term customers and positive publicity, that is the definition of shortsightedness.
In summary, this is a crappy situation for the PSO's...but you can turn your short term hit into long term value if you apply some critical thinking.
Well said Tennispro. There is great value in this exceptional and unfortunate circumstance for Motiv and ball drillers.
I don't remember anywhere that anybody said anything about not taking care of a customer. At least I didn't. But that doesn't mean anybody has to be happy drilling replacement balls for essentially $17 each. I would rather Motiv do nothing and tarnish their reputation further than have to take one for the team to make them look better.
You don't have to like the situation or be a part of the solution. You can just post a simple print out on your door that you decline to participate in the Motiv ball exchange. All you have to do is print out the statement below. Sign it. So that you are voicing your true feelings about the situation your past customers will understand. They are not happy with the situation. They however would be more appreciative to go to a PSO who won't cringe at the sight of a Jackal or Jackal Carnage. They would be more than happy to take your customers away for the next 20yrs.
Dear customer it is with great regret we will not participate in the Motiv ball exchange since this will cause a financial hardship that you as a customer will not pay full price for our services or purchase another ball or other crap in our store that we mark up 200%. However you are welcome to waltz on in and shoot the breeze with us and look at the wonder wall of high performance sponges that will need a replacement after 150 games.
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This process is total garbage. I attempted to use the form. I submitted it and told them that a picture is not possible, however I have a receipt from the pro shop that I bought it at. They also told me that the serial number is not valid. I swear that the serial number is accurate and I bought it from a reputable pro shop who will verify the purchase. That is not good enougth for them. I am angry about it and have contacted a non profit legal office to help me with the process.
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If your using a laptop with a webcam you can take a snap shot photo of your ball. A cell phone picture set at the lowest resolution 640x480. Send picture to your e-mail address. Then paste to Motiv form
Do the same with a tablet with camera and set to lowest resolution.
Good luck nextbowler. Hope this info was helpful
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This process is total garbage. I attempted to use the form. I submitted it and told them that a picture is not possible, however I have a receipt from the pro shop that I bought it at. They also told me that the serial number is not valid. I swear that the serial number is accurate and I bought it from a reputable pro shop who will verify the purchase. That is not good enougth for them. I am angry about it and have contacted a non profit legal office to help me with the process.
The issue for Motiv would appear to be that they have no way to validate you are still in possession of the ball.
You could have sold the ball and just retained that information. You would not be entitled to the replacement then.
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This process is total garbage. I attempted to use the form. I submitted it and told them that a picture is not possible, however I have a receipt from the pro shop that I bought it at. They also told me that the serial number is not valid. I swear that the serial number is accurate and I bought it from a reputable pro shop who will verify the purchase. That is not good enougth for them. I am angry about it and have contacted a non profit legal office to help me with the process.
The process is rather simple not sure how it is garbage. How can you be in possession of a ball but not able to take a picture? Your non-profit legal team may have a camera you could borrow...
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So Wowzers did you buy your Carnage from a pro shop? Easy question. Yes or no? Why are you so scared to answer such an easy question? Is it will give away why you are against Motiv not paying for drilling?
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Bowler19525, $25 might seem like a nice wage but it does not keep the lights on, insurance paid, tools sharp, etc... The list goes out a long ways what the money needs to cover. Not worth it for $25/hr. Also, if Motiv does not send me the grips and slug brand that I use then I don't want what they are sending. We will be charging for the extras that go into drilling a ball for a customer.
Penny wise, pound foolish.
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TD...I have answered it. Just read.
Oh yeah, I will answer it for you because you obviously missed it the first 2 times. I work in a pro shop part time. Do you really think I purchased the ball online or from somewhere else if I work in a shop?
And you must have missed this as well. I have both Jackals, not just the Carnage.
I am 100% against ANY company not fixing a mistake they caused 100% of the way. If this was any other ball company, I would be saying the EXACT same thing (fill in ANY other ball company that makes the same mistake Motiv made). Nothing personally against Motiv, but if you make a mistake, you need to fix the mistake, not tell someone we are going to half fix the mistake, and either you or the PSO is going to have to pick up the drill fee or a portion of the fee to get a ball we (Motiv) took out of your bag because we didn't manufacture the ball within the required specs.
I think that is what I have said from the beginning.
Have a nice day
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Legit question: Do those of you who feel entitled to drilling cost believe you should be reimbursed for any de-oils and resurface services you've purchased? Admittedly it's a low cost, but my question is based on the principle.
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My pso gave me a new hywire. Free no charge. Didn't charge for thumb or grips. This for doing business with him for the last 8 years. This was before the jackal recalls.
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Legit question: Do those of you who feel entitled to drilling cost believe you should be reimbursed for any de-oils and resurface services you've purchased? Admittedly it's a low cost, but my question is based on the principle.
The services you reference are maintenance costs 100% related to ball usage, and are not the responsibility of the ball company. It doesn't fall into the category of being made whole for a manufacturing mistake that was completely preventable.
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Wowzers, so you work in a shop and bought the ball there and you get charged for drilling? Seems to me a situation like that would lend itself to free drilling. So it would seem you just want some free money. Other than the time to lay out a ball, the actual cost for electricity for the press and very minor wear on the bit, is minimal. You DO seem to want something to cover virtually nothing. The shop you work at would certainly be in the minority for wanting something for a ball they sold or recommended. They have no business skills in the least. I was in the restaurant business for 38 years and I would give anyone a new meal if they didn't care for the meal they ordered, but I would never give them their money back if they ate the meal and then complained!
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Steven, you're wrong in your thinking. Ebonite made made ball lines over the years that had early ball death because they absorbed oil like a sponge. They didn't replace diddly for anyone and they knew they had a problem!
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Good for you TD, but when I speak of this, I am thinking of this from a customer's perspective AND from the pro shop perspective. Once again, I have said the PSO and the customer should NOT have to pay for redrilling a ball that is out of spec.
As for maintenance, nope. The balls passed USBC specs, and there was not a recall that effected every ball made. Sanding, refinishing, grips, slugs, and whatever else is on the person.
Ebo may have had an issue, but it did not effect the USBC certification of the ball.
My plan from the start was not for cash to be given to the customer, I also said that a company like Motiv is not set up to handle that many accounts or refunds or whatever. The pro shop should be credited the money.
Considering I do not handle any accounts at the shop, I would never see the payment if handled as such.
So no, I do not want cash. I have said from the start, I want Motiv to fully handle the issue, not give a ball that needs drilled and expect either a shop to cut the normal drill fee and eat the rest or to charge the customer the difference.
Have a nice day
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How is this still an issue?
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Some people are that dense
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The balls are being replaced. Grips and slugs included. The shops are being compensated with at least 1 ball for their work. This isn't a bad deal at all.
Here's a little story for you. My distaste for Brunswick came from their move to Mexico and the workmanship that the balls possessed, or lack thereof. I had numerous Fury's, Wild Rides, C-Systems with miss marked cgs, hollow pins, voids in the filler. What did I receive from the for compensation? Replaced balls. Nothing else. These were all factory defects. I didn't get inserts, slugs, or labor. Jut a replacement ball after numerous phone calls to Brunswick about these issues. Pictures taken and emails sent. I spent more time getting replacements than I did actually drilling them. Was I compensated for my time and effort? Nope. Did i receive an apology? Nope. So be thankful that Motiv is doing EVERYTHING they can to make this right.
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Steven, you're wrong in your thinking. Ebonite made made ball lines over the years that had early ball death because they absorbed oil like a sponge. They didn't replace diddly for anyone and they knew they had a problem!
All the companies had/have balls susceptible to "ball death". Still, for those who know how to take care of their equipment, ball death has been overblown. I've never had problems with Ebonite -- even their early particle covers. Aggressive cleaning, Revivors, and correct surface management in most cases do the trick. Unfortunately, most bowlers don't put in that kind of effort.
Even if you were correct, "ball death" is not a violation of any USBC specification. On the other hand, Motiv willfully broke USBC rules and robbed customers the use of their Jackels. Customers and PSOs are not at fault and should not be penalized in any way.
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Morph, Bowl
Glad I could make both of your days.
Glad that when people don't agree with your opinion, you belittle them or make fun of them. But that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.
Once again, as I have said before, if you or anyone else don't like what I have to say, put me on block. I never asked you to read what I write, and I sure never asked if either of you or anyone else thought it was appropriate or if my OPINION agrees with your opinion.
If my words cause that much issue for either of you, block me. It is a real simple process.
Have a nice day!
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Steven
Some people just don't get it, or they don't want to get it because they are so in love with Motiv. I am sure you and I can agree that no matter what company had this issue, you and I would be saying the same thing. Storm, Roto, 900, Radical, Brunswick, DV8, and on and on, the company should not penalize the customer or PSO in any way. Making the PSO take a hair cut on a drill fee or making the customer pick up part of the fee is doing so.
Steven, you're wrong in your thinking. Ebonite made made ball lines over the years that had early ball death because they absorbed oil like a sponge. They didn't replace diddly for anyone and they knew they had a problem!
All the companies had/have balls susceptible to "ball death". Still, for those who know how to take care of their equipment, ball death has been overblown. I've never had problems with Ebonite -- even their early particle covers. Aggressive cleaning, Revivors, and correct surface management in most cases do the trick. Unfortunately, most bowlers don't put in that kind of effort.
Even if you were correct, "ball death" is not a violation of any USBC specification. On the other hand, Motiv willfully broke USBC rules and robbed customers the use of their Jackels. Customers and PSOs are not at fault and should not be penalized in any way.
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Oh and yes, I do love my Visionary stuff. Ebonite...not so much.
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Block Wowsers...heck no, I'm about to start a gofundme in your honor to cover any out of pocket expenses you might have incurred due to this unfortunate series of events. I'm not even disagreeing with you, I want to make this right so just tell me how much money you need to stop complaining.
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Just send him a box of diapers and a fresh baby bottle to replace the sour milk
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Nahhh. Because my opinion cannot be bought. And no thanks on the money because that would be out of the consumer's pocket, not the company that caused the issue.
Have a nice day
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Hey L3
I have an idea for you. How about you go back to the Motiv threads on new balls coming out and keep telling people the next ball is not going to be the Top Gear core and about how newbies have no idea what they are talking about.
We all know how that comment turned out for you. Have you gotten the egg off your face from that comment a few weeks ago yet?
Block Wowsers...heck no, I'm about to start a gofundme in your honor to cover any out of pocket expenses you might have incurred due to this unfortunate series of events. I'm not even disagreeing with you, I want to make this right so just tell me how much money you need to stop complaining.
I offered him a check to cover for his super expensive drilling fees so he can stop complaining and crying like a little baby... If you open a gofundme please let me know so we can get the money to make this moron shut up for good.
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I think this is it..umm yeah it is.
The name for this ball is Venom Cobra and it comes with a new core, supposedly named "Top Gear". From what I know, it's meant for dry lane conditions. Looking at the current range of Venoms, I think it would be an angular motion ball.
There was an accidental leak of a new Venom ball. So the Panic makes sense as being replaced, but only because it is being closed out. New ball looked like a brown pearl and had a "cobra-like" look to the Venom snake.
You totally made this up. There won't be a "top gear" core and it won't be an angular motion ball. The Tag was released less than a year ago and the Burn was just released so it won't be for drier lanes either.
Next time try harder, newbie.
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Wowzers,
Everyone except you knows at times "Life is Not Fair". This is one of those times. I fully understand your point that Motiv should pay for everything related to the replacement. But, it is not going to happen. You need to come to grips with it or risk looking completely more foolish than you already look with your "dog with a bone" attitude.
Stop your annoying crusade on here. If you feel like you do, go to Michigan and protest outside Motiv's headquarters. You may get the result you seek. But I can tell you one thing for sure .....you are not going to get it by continuing to cry about it on this forum. Please do most of us a favor and stop.
Thank you.
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I think Wowzers is arguing the ideal, not whining. His logic and ideal are correct in my opinion and he seems intelligent enough to realize that sometimes life is not fair and doesn't expect his posts here to change that. He is just defending the principle I think, which some people continue to attack or just don't get... Just my thoughts, but I'm sure Wowzers will fill us in on his.
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Sorry Bowl, not going to stop. Once again, if you do not like it, block me. That is why the person who developed the site made that function. Nobody is making you read my posts, are they? Did I ever state you have to like my opinion, my posts, or anything about me? Nope. Once again, that is why the Block feature was created. You are 100% absolutely entitled to your opinion and I respect your thoughts, although I disagree with it.
Life is not fair and yes, todvan is 100% correct, this is the principle of the issue for Motiv to make everything right. Todvan actually gets it.
My 13 years in college finishing my Associates, then Bachelors, then Masters, and finally my Doctorate which included 2 years of research of a subject and ended with publishing my findings has taught me to stand up for what I believe in, fight it with logic, and never back down regardless of who is against you.
I don't care if everyone attacks me. My opinion is not going to change and I will continue to post as I see fit. If someone or everyone wants to think of me as a whiner or foolish, ok, no problem. I will probably never meet you or have any other interaction with you ever....so how does it effect me in the long run, it doesn't it.
Have a nice day
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Wowzers,
So when are you leaving for Michigan to protest your position? Wait....your not? Thought so!
Some folks just like to hear themselves talk.....and they will continue to talk until the only one they're talking to is themselves. And everyone knows what that means.
Good Day to you, Sir. You have seen my last post on this issue. I know when to stop talking.
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Considering that I might live in Michigan...guess I might not have to drive to Michigan...ever think of that?
Considering you are still talking, guess I am not talking to myself. Maybe I will be now.
Have a nice day to you as well!
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Sorry Bowl, not going to stop. Once again, if you do not like it, block me. That is why the person who developed the site made that function. Nobody is making you read my posts, are they? Did I ever state you have to like my opinion, my posts, or anything about me? Nope. Once again, that is why the Block feature was created. You are 100% absolutely entitled to your opinion and I respect your thoughts, although I disagree with it.
Life is not fair and yes, todvan is 100% correct, this is the principle of the issue for Motiv to make everything right. Todvan actually gets it.
My 13 years in college finishing my Associates, then Bachelors, then Masters, and finally my Doctorate which included 2 years of research of a subject and ended with publishing my findings has taught me to stand up for what I believe in, fight it with logic, and never back down regardless of who is against you.
I don't care if everyone attacks me. My opinion is not going to change and I will continue to post as I see fit. If someone or everyone wants to think of me as a whiner or foolish, ok, no problem. I will probably never meet you or have any other interaction with you ever....so how does it effect me in the long run, it doesn't it.
Have a nice day
I think Wowzers is arguing the ideal, not whining. His logic and ideal are correct in my opinion and he seems intelligent enough to realize that sometimes life is not fair and doesn't expect his posts here to change that. He is just defending the principle I think, which some people continue to attack or just don't get... Just my thoughts, but I'm sure Wowzers will fill us in on his.
(https://bronwynmay.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/143200463121221688_1jk4c8kr_c.jpg)
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Who cares about this anymore lol. So two weeks ago, y'all are a bunch of ______'s.
Jk haha
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That's funny dozer!
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What's worse - one person supposedly whining about something or 6 people whining about his whining?
This topic along with the other 10 about Motiv need to be abandoned unless some new fact comes about.
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I agree this topic is old and tired. But, I do enjoy the fact that Wowzers won't be getting any money from Motiv to cover drilling!!
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I agree this topic is old and tired. But, I do enjoy the fact that Wowzers won't be getting any money from Motiv to cover drilling!!
LOL. You sir just won the Internet today.
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I love that you two still can't stop talking about it.
Have a nice day!
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Oh TD....forgot. You might want to speak for yourself on that.
:)
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Sorry to disappoint you L3 but no camping at Motiv's HQ.
Nope..I stick up for when a wrong is done to someone or to a group. Sorry you can't handle that or understand that or deal with someone who has an opposite opinion of you.
Hey, maybe you can camp at Motiv HQ instead so next time you can get some correct Intel on what the next ball being released is instead of looking like a fool. Nice apology to the person who you said some stuff to when you were completely wrong about the Top Gear core and what the ball reaction would be. But that is someone like you...your M.O. is to attack, call names, and verbally pound them and when you are found to be wrong, walk away, never apologize, and move on to your next attack. Sound familiar in your comments here?
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Without Motiv selling illegal balls this forum would be kinda dead.At least it has gave us some reading material.Glad I am not a Motiv fan boy can't stand the big goofy labels all over the balls an the crappy colors.Coral and puke yellow really turns me on.Guess they do that so people will know who Motiv is.Well we know now just produce illegal balls will get you some attention.Keep up the good fight Wowzers.Nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe.Hopefully I just added some more reading material.
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Without Motiv selling illegal balls this forum would be kinda dead.At least it has gave us some reading material.Glad I am not a Motiv fan boy can't stand the big goofy labels all over the balls an the crappy colors.Coral and puke yellow really turns me on.Guess they do that so people will know who Motiv is.Well we know now just produce illegal balls will get you some attention.Keep up the good fight Wowzers.Nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe.Hopefully I just added some more reading material.
I use to think like that. I'm not gonna lie some of the motiv balls are crappy colored but let me tell ya something these balls are like sleepers ugly on the outside but got some crazy engine. Some so crazy its illegal ;)
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Gentlemen. I use the word loosely. I for one do not appreciate the constant name calling if someone does not agree with you. Generally I do like the fact that wowzers has kept up with the situation and I do agree with most of what he says when related to the subject instead of defending himself from detractors.