BallReviews
Equipment Boards => Motiv => Topic started by: JustinWi on March 23, 2016, 03:46:50 PM
-
http://www.motivbowling.com/motivnation/news-events/2016-03-23/update-on-the-motiv-jackal-carnage-original-jackal-bowling-balls.html
At MOTIV, we are always focused on our customers and working hard to give bowlers the opportunity to reach their full potential on the lanes. As you are no doubt aware, the USBC made a ruling on March 15, 2016 to immediately revoke the approval previously granted to the Motiv Jackal Carnage and original Jackal balls, stating they determined the balls do not comply with current USBC specifications and requirements. We are in the process of requesting more information from the USBC and wanting to ask them many questions so that we can better understand the details behind their decision and determine the next steps to address this situation.
We sincerely apologize for the inconvenience and trouble that this situation has caused so many of you, our loyal and valued customers, and we want you to know that we are working diligently around the clock to arrive at a fair and reasonable resolution. We sincerely appreciate the huge outpouring of support for Motiv and your belief in us.
We understand that people want answers and action now, and please understand that it is our objective to get this situation addressed as soon as possible. We believe that both balls should be reinstated on the USBC Approved Ball List, and we are reaching out to the USBC to have meaningful, effective dialogue to resolve this matter together in a manner that is best for all those affected by the USBC's decision and ruling, especially you the bowlers, pro shops, bowling alleys, and enthusiasts. Therefore, we ask for your patience as we continue to work toward this goal.
Understandably, pro shops and bowlers are asking for specific answers about a ball replacement process. Please understand that we cannot provide those details yet as we hope to communicate directly with the USBC as well as finish reviewing each country's legislation and consider the proper procedure for each. Once we have further information and details, which we expect very soon, we will let everyone know and provide you with details on how to proceed.
In the meantime, please hold onto your Jackal and/or Jackal Carnage bowling ball. Do not destroy, discard, or damage the ball in any way.
Thank you very much for your support, patience, and understanding during this very difficult time.
-
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F62gjBZX.png&hash=d8590aeb12431d02ccc7421757130c72655d6c26)
-
USBC maybe show us the information from where you originally tested the Jackal and Carnage and got results of 0.060 on the dot.......and not something different. Because it likely wasn't 0.060 and you approved it anyway until someone else figured it out. That would be bad on USBC part.
-
USBC maybe show us the information from where you originally tested the Jackal and Carnage and got results of 0.060 on the dot.......and not something different. Because it likely wasn't 0.060 and you approved it anyway until someone else figured it out. That would be bad on USBC part.
Sorry, kid, kind of like asking God for a million dollars in your prayers: more of wishful thinking than a possibly fulfilled request. I seriously doubt if we will ever know the truth of this situation.
-
Exactly. Can't admit fault to something especially after being caught by another manufacture. So easiest thing usbc can do is deny and pass the blame.
-
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FmgfkVN6.jpg%3F1&hash=5181c09d8005681c0065183aafcebb2fecb0ce04)
-
Well crap .
-
We can only hope Motiv feels like they actually has a chance of getting the two balls reinstated and this isn't just a ploy to stall for time. Like I said in the other thread them actually succeeding in this is actually my favorite outcome so I don't mind waiting a bit longer.
-
It's a great response, if this was last Monday.
But it's not. It's nine days later. The day they themselves decided that the form to exchange the balls was to go live. No one forced them to say they would exchange, they did that on their own.
If you make a release last Wednesday stating that with additional time you've decided to delay replacing balls and work to try to reinstate the Jackal and Carnage, ok.
Waiting to now...BS
Motiv is taking a one dumpster fire and turned it into a two dumpster fire and counting.
-
I suspect they got some legal advice...I bet you would do the same if millions were about to disappear from your bank account.
-
I'm sure they did. But that statement needs to be released LAST week, not the day their form was to go live.
-
Agree the statement needed to be last week. Not now... The way it looks now, this could go on well past the election... The 2020 election, I mean.
-
I'm sure they did. But that statement needs to be released LAST week, not the day their form was to go live.
Gotta agree with this guy, you cant go out claiming you will replace balls then all the sudden the day you announce to replace it you want to fight the ruling. the statement to fight the ruling should have been made long ago not the day you promise to have the website up. Kinda brings the jackal owners on a swirly roller coaster instead of being straightforward.
-
Is it possible they spun all of the Jackals and Carnages left and found they were within the legal limit? So now they want to see the USBC paperwork?
-
Is it possible they spun all of the Jackals and Carnages left and found they were within the legal limit? So now they want to see the USBC paperwork?
Well if you read the comment Motiv is asking for information from USBC or asking for evidence. I dont think USBC would want anymore jackals after all Motiv could easily choose which one are legal in their warehouse and give it to the USBC to test.
-
I sure would want to see the data the USBC collected. I would want to spin those balls myself that the USBC spun and see what my machine said the diff was compared to what the USBC said it was. What if the USBC calibrated something wrong? I would HOPE the USBC would have checked and double checked before taking this step, but this is the USBC.
By the same token, Motiv could be testing balls and could be the one having issues, making Motiv's results incorrect and the USBC correct.
Who knows.
-
Motiv obviously thinks they have a chance at reinstatement or they wouldn't risk making their customers even angrier.
-
At this point, the damage is already done either way, so why not try any path you can to get off the hook for a million or more. Any business would go this route.
-
I do have a year plus old jackal. I've gotten plenty of use out of it and the last thing I need is another ball to throw poorly, so no ulterior motiv here. I have been in customer service for 35 years and like all of you, a consumer and customer my whole life.
I feel changing course after 8 days is a tremendous customer service gaffe. They over promised and under delivered which is the opposite way to successfully navigate a situation like this.
After clawing there way into a highly competitive business through building trust in their brand, they are about to give it all back due to rushing an initial response to their loyal following.
They now choose to temporarily revoke that commitment in a very public way to their same lifeblood customers. I would guess many of whom bought the carnage as their initial Motiv ball.
Not trying to overstate, but this could be the beginning of the end for them
-
As I've said before, I think an immediate ban by the USBC without any grace period was a poor option for all involved. I'm sure I'll get flamed by all the USBC apologists, but it would have benefited all parties involved to have time to determine the best course of action
-
I don't think some of this criticism is particularly fair. Remember and understand, they received no advanced notice of this action last week. They got the news the same time you and I did. So there had to be a lot of scrambling going on and they were certainly a bit reactive due to the need to communicate to their customers to let them know they will be taken care of.
Wednesday, today, was a general target for remedial action....and people took it as gospel. And now they beat them over the head. The exact line in last weeks release was: We are currently working on a website form that SHOULD be live LATE next week. (Emphasis mine)
In the mean time, as they've been able to digest what just happened to them and likely gathered more information surrounding the circumstances; not to mention what I assume was some legal advice, they believe that perhaps the decision was unjust. And so they are exploring an avenue that may lead to reinstatement. This, by the way, is the best case scenario for ALL involved. So if that possibility exists, then they should exhaust that avenue.
Why people think this will take years is beyond my comprehension. I have seen nothing from this company that leads me to believe that they are looking to delay and delay just to screw the very customers that circled the wagons when this decision came down.
So relax and give them a break. The circumstances surrounding this entire affair seems fishy to me (I'm speaking of USBC), and based on this recent turn of events, it must seem that way to Motiv as well. I for one am willing to give them a little slack.
-
I don't think some of this criticism is particularly fair. Remember and understand, they received no advanced notice of this action last week. They got the news the same time you and I did. So there had to be a lot of scrambling going on and they were certainly a bit reactive due to the need to communicate to their customers to let them know they will be taken care of.
Wednesday, today, was a general target for remedial action....and people took it as gospel. And now they beat them over the head. The exact line in last weeks release was: We are currently working on a website form that SHOULD be live LATE next week. (Emphasis mine)
In the mean time, as they've been able to digest what just happened to them and likely gathered more information surrounding the circumstances; not to mention what I assume was some legal advice, they believe that perhaps the decision was unjust. And so they are exploring an avenue that may lead to reinstatement. This, by the way, is the best case scenario for ALL involved. So if that possibility exists, then they should exhaust that avenue.
Why people think this will take years is beyond my comprehension. I have seen nothing from this company that leads me to believe they that are looking to delay and delay just go screw the very customers that circled the wagons when this decision came down.
So relax and give them a break. The circumstances surrounding this entire affair seems fishy to me (I'm speaking of USBC), and based on this recent turn of events, it must seem that way to Motiv as well. I for one am willing to give them a little slack.
^^^^Well said^^^^
-
While well said, it doesn't change the fact that Motiv should have released that statement probably last week, definitely not today.
They edited their original statement to remove the drilling portion, so it's obvious their position was evolving.
It's not really credible to believe that it took them until this afternoon to decide to not follow through on their posted statement and decide to fight the decision.
I don't begrudge them fighting the decision, that's their right. I fault them for little apparent concern for the affected customers.
Once you decide to delay the recall and fight the decision, that should have been made known to the affected customers asap, not because they tried to run out the clock on the day they said they'd make their recall plans know, end of day at that.
-
Last time I checked we live in America, has the USBC provided any proof to backup their claim that balls are out of compliance?
-
Well when you claim make replacements by March 23 as first statement your basically agreeing your guilty. And yes because we are in america we have the right against self incrimination, 5 th amendment. I don't know bout you guys but it is fishy to me let the world know we will replace balls on 23 rd then all sudden when deadline comes now you want to call in your lawyer to the table maybe its just me but go ahead and beat me up!
-
Why should Motiv be required to provide a replacement immediately? This decision is only a week old. I don't believe that is some sort of long delay. Face it, the season is about over, by the time they could send out said replacements many leagues will be done. There could be some legal action in the future of this situation and why would anybody act before that. They said to hang on to your ball, they must think they can possibly win a fight with the USBC, And, if they don't, you didn't see them say they won't be offering a replacement.
-
Call me silly, but why hasn't any information about the field test been made public by the USBC? You guys sure are quick to point the finger at Motiv, but other than a press release where the USBC banned the balls, what do we know about the violation? Exactly nothing, and maybe they have provided the same big helping of nothing to Motiv. So yeah, I think the burden of proof is on the USBC especially when they just make a statement along with an immediate ban to put the heat on Motiv.
-
Ken, you are one of the biggest pizz ants on this site. You always take a negative tact. Do you even have one of the balls in question? If not, what's you motive in spouting off? You just like to put on display the jag off attitude that must limit your amount of friends in life!
-
Well when you claim make replacements by March 23 as first statement your basically agreeing your guilty. And yes because we are in america we have the right against self incrimination, 5 th amendment. I don't know bout you guys but it is fishy to me let the world know we will replace balls on 23 rd then all sudden when deadline comes now you want to call in your lawyer to the table maybe its just me but go ahead and beat me up!
I don't think they promised to start replacing balls on the 23rd, they said they would have a form ready by the 23rd. That's not a process you can get off the ground that quickly. If recertification is possible that is the best option, and the USBC continues to be shady about the whole ordeal. Don't we as the bowlers deserve to know what exactly happened. It's ridiculous that they came out of the blue with no details other than these to balls are no longer legal sucks to be you if you own one.
I just don't see how they caught this now when the core has been in use for 4 years now. The only difference is people started winning with the Carnage (and not with some major advantage). The Carnage success reminds me a lot of Roto Grip some years back when they came out with the Original Cell. Roto Grip wasn't a real popular brand until this ball and when Malott started destroying everyone with it and RG exploded. The only difference here is RG is owned by one of the established brands and Motiv is the new kid on the block.
-
Woah woah calm down yes I am motiv thrower where did I state they have to replace balls I said they look guilty by saying they will replace the ball in the first place now after a week they want to fight seems suspicious to me... I don't have an out for motiv I am a motiv thrower although I don't have the jackal I have the primal rage and down all the way to the ascent so if your saying I don't belong in the topic because two balls then I guess I can't state my opinion.
And actually I was in the market for the jackals I offered the one in our forum marketplace but was decline. Oh dam saying I have no friends sniff sniff that hurt:(
-
Woah woah calm down yes I am motiv thrower where did I state they have to replace balls I said they look guilty by saying they will replace the ball in the first place now after a week they want to fight seems suspicious to me... I don't have an out for motiv I am a motiv thrower although I don't have the jackal I have the primal rage and down all the way to the ascent so if your saying I don't belong in the topic because two balls then I guess I can't state my opinion.
And actually I was in the market for the jackals I offered the one in our forum marketplace but was decline. Oh dam saying I have no friends sniff sniff that hurt:(
I thought this was a response to me and I was like whoa I didn't think I was insulting. Then I saw the trash posted right above me lol. I can only imagine Motiv's decision to challenge the USBC is because of some new info they have. I don't think they would be pushing recertification without solid reason to do so. In the end I think that would be ideal, saves everyone time and aggravation and $$$.
-
Woah woah calm down yes I am motiv thrower where did I state they have to replace balls I said they look guilty by saying they will replace the ball in the first place now after a week they want to fight seems suspicious to me... I don't have an out for motiv I am a motiv thrower although I don't have the jackal I have the primal rage and down all the way to the ascent so if your saying I don't belong in the topic because two balls then I guess I can't state my opinion.
And actually I was in the market for the jackals I offered the one in our forum marketplace but was decline. Oh dam saying I have no friends sniff sniff that hurt:(
I thought this was a response to me and I was like whoa I didn't think I was insulting. Then I saw the trash posted right above me lol. I can only imagine Motiv's decision to challenge the USBC is because of some new info they have. I don't think they would be pushing recertification without solid reason to do so. In the end I think that would be ideal, saves everyone time and aggravation and $$$.
Yea I don't mind the balls coming back the carnage was my top 1 next ball but not a lot of used ones out there. I love motiv coverstocks and no matter how many plug the ball is still a beast.
-
Ken, you are one of the biggest pizz ants on this site. You always take a negative tact. Do you even have one of the balls in question? If not, what's you motive in spouting off? You just like to put on display the jag off attitude that must limit your amount of friends in life!
He is probably the biggest douchebag on this site, along with another unpleasant guy, both are a pain in the ass to read.
-
Ken, you are one of the biggest pizz ants on this site. You always take a negative tact. Do you even have one of the balls in question? If not, what's you motive in spouting off? You just like to put on display the jag off attitude that must limit your amount of friends in life!
He is probably the biggest douchebag on this site, along with another unpleasant guy, both are a pain in the ass to read.
Dang I didn't I know was hated . alright I promise this will be my last post in br.
-
Sorry in advance for the long post, I got a little carried away.
As detailed, there was no statement that said replacements will begin on the 23rd. People took that as the day and ran with it (obviously including people here). One week is not a long time in these situations for a company, so yes, I'm sure there has been much evolution in the situation. As their focus is on remediation of the situation for the best of all people affected (themselves and their customers), I would certainly hope they are exploring all possibilities to keep those balls on the market, especially considering the questionable circumstances surrounding the sudden ban and the imperfect process for determining the measurement (I'll get to that in a minute).
Maybe I'm a bit more empathetic since I work in Regulatory Affairs in a regulated industry. When a bomb like this goes off with zero advanced warning, there is a ton of information gathering going on. What you think you know one day could be very different the next. In the rush to get information out to customers on the day of the event, the main focus has to be on easing customer concerns and letting them know they WILL be supported. As days go by and more and more information is gathered and analyzed, A story begins to build and strategies are altered. When the customer base is expecting an update, it is provided based on the current level of information. And that is what we saw.
I will conjecture that the core (pardon the pun) of the issue is tolerances and sensitivity of both the manufacturing process and the certification process. It is IMPOSSIBLE for every manufactured ball to have the EXACT specification (RG and diff) that is listed on the box. This is a truism for ANY manufactured product. The drugs you take are manufactured products, but the potency of the active pharmaceutical ingredient (API) is not exactly the same across every batch. Typically there is a tolerance range allowable in order for a batch to pass. This may be a range of 95%-105% potency. If the tested batch falls within this range it passes.
Similarly, I have to believe that there is a tolerance range for the manufacture of bowling balls. In EVERY manufacturing run there will be balls that are slightly over listed spec and slightly under listed spec, and of course some that are on spec. Since the USBC allows for a ball to be listed (qualified) at the maximum differential, then it must allow for a tolerance range based on manufacturing variance that will still consider a ball within spec. For the record, I don't know if that is true, but it would be idiotic for it not to be considering the nature of the manufacturing and MEASURING process. I'm just spit balling here, but let's say that purity of bowling balls is far more important than the purity of the medicine you take. So the tolerance range is 98-102% (not unreasonable). In that instance any ball of the line that had a measured differential from 0.0588 - 0.0612 would fall within spec. And remember that is plus or minus 12 / 10,000ths of an inch. For context, the thickness of a sheet of printer paper is 0.0038; more than three times higher.
Why should that be acceptable? Well lets take a look at the measurement process. The full procedure is provided here: http://www.bowl.com/uploadedFiles/Equipment_Specs/Information/SOP-BALL-1_AsymmRG.pdf
The PSA is HAND DRAWN with a grease pencil with a mark that looks to be about a half inch in diameter (that's 5000/10,0000ths for those playing at home). The line HAND DRAWN with a grease pencil (a line that I would say is 1/8 inch wide, or roughly 1250/10,000ths) to mark the X axis point is measured with a pro-sect at 6 3/4" (or 6 and 7500/10,000ths). Same with the Z.
Then the ball is HAND PLACED into the swing as described in step 13 pasted below (Parenthetical remarks are mine):
Place the bowling ball in the RG Swing cradle with the x-axis at the very top pointing up through the string (how many 10,000ths is the string?) on the RG Swing. To assist with centering the bowling ball, align the line (that is 1250/10000ths wide) from the x-axis to the PSA with the side bar of the cradle on the RG swing.
This is done twice on each axis and the swing is set in motion by hand. There is zero chance that this method can be determined to have a validated sensitivity to the 10,000ths of an inch. You couple this insensitivity with natural variance and a tolerance range of 98-102% as described above is extremely reasonable and defensible. The human variance alone of the measuring process lends serious doubt to the voracity of USBCs claim of a sufficient number of balls out of spec.
-
Here is there original release:
March 15, 2016
Today the USBC announced that they have pulled approval of the Jackal and Jackal Carnage bowling balls due to non-conformance with current specifications. Recent spot checking in the marketplace showed that both balls had an average differential over the maximum limit of .060.
We are currently working on a form for our website that will allow bowlers to submit their Jackal or Jackal Carnage into a database to become eligible for a replacement ball. We expect the form to be online March 23. While we will not be able to reimburse drilling fees, we will replace the bowling ball with a current model or a future release of the Jackal. More details will be coming soon.
Thank you very much for your business. We sincerely apologize.
It's easy to see why folks expected to start registering the balls for replacement, it's what their own press release says. While the date leaves room that it might be a day or two later, the concept of what would happen is clear. The subsequent information from Motiv did nothing to change that expectation.
The Daily News article contains quotes from Scott Wilbur conveying that same information.
They put the expectation out there. They needed to manage their customers expectations. Any deviation, especially one this big, needed to be conveyed asap.
Again, not saying it's not their right to challenge the findings. Saying this is not how to deal with your customers who are sitting on an unusable product.
I spent over a decade in customer service related areas. When deviating dramatically from what the customer was promised, you advise the customer asap of the change. They may and probably won't like it, but it shows you respect their patronage.
Waiting until 4:40pm on the 23rd, give or take a few, shows little respect for their customers.
-
For the statistical discussion above, based on the tolerance you suggested, for a sample of any size to average at the upper tolerance limit and the population be on target are very low. For a sample of just 4 the probability would be almost zero.
-
Maybe you guys should call the USBC and ask them to release the "field test" results?
-
Interestingly enough, many are upset about the recall of the two balls, because as stated by the owners, the Jackels are "their best oil ball". Maybe, core dynamics DO matter. After all, if it's just cover, than why not have tweaked those densities to the core to have an end result of a ball that is closer to 0.058 differential, and thus wouldn't conflict with the 0.060 MAX allowable number? Theoretically, you should be able to put that cover around a weaker core, and have the same great results. Things that make you go hhmmmm
-
Here is there original release:
March 15, 2016
Today the USBC announced that they have pulled approval of the Jackal and Jackal Carnage bowling balls due to non-conformance with current specifications. Recent spot checking in the marketplace showed that both balls had an average differential over the maximum limit of .060.
We are currently working on a form for our website that will allow bowlers to submit their Jackal or Jackal Carnage into a database to become eligible for a replacement ball. We expect the form to be online March 23. While we will not be able to reimburse drilling fees, we will replace the bowling ball with a current model or a future release of the Jackal. More details will be coming soon.
Thank you very much for your business. We sincerely apologize.
It's easy to see why folks expected to start registering the balls for replacement, it's what their own press release says. While the date leaves room that it might be a day or two later, the concept of what would happen is clear. The subsequent information from Motiv did nothing to change that expectation.
The Daily News article contains quotes from Scott Wilbur conveying that same information.
They put the expectation out there. They needed to manage their customers expectations. Any deviation, especially one this big, needed to be conveyed asap.
Again, not saying it's not their right to challenge the findings. Saying this is not how to deal with your customers who are sitting on an unusable product.
I spent over a decade in customer service related areas. When deviating dramatically from what the customer was promised, you advise the customer asap of the change. They may and probably won't like it, but it shows you respect their patronage.
Waiting until 4:40pm on the 23rd, give or take a few, shows little respect for their customers.
We expect the form to be online March 23
That's not exactly carved in stone. And since the information and circumstances changed the situation, they did COMMUNICATE on the 23rd to meet customer expectation of an action item. So they should ignore new information and not pursue what is arguably a more beneficial outcome for both themselves and their customers?
-
I do think Motiv was blindsided by the USBC in how the notification/announcement was handled. I for one am willing to give Motiv a chance to address their side (appeal if you will) to the USBC and hopefully a better solution will prevail that everyone can live with. For now I'm staying calm. In the meantime, I have other rocks I can throw.
-
For the statistical discussion above, based on the tolerance you suggested, for a sample of any size to average at the upper tolerance limit and the population be on target are very low. For a sample of just 4 the probability would be almost zero.
yeah it's a tight spec. which furthers the point.
-
Thank you Snakster for bringing logical thought to a very emotional discussion.
-
Thank you Snakster for bringing logical thought to a very emotional discussion.
It's a personality flaw. :D
-
For the statistical discussion above, based on the tolerance you suggested, for a sample of any size to average at the upper tolerance limit and the population be on target are very low. For a sample of just 4 the probability would be almost zero.
yeah it's a tight spec. which furthers the point.
I must have misunderstood you. It seemed you were arguing that it was to be expected that the individuals could range all the way up to 0.0612, so the fact that there was a sample that averaged that was normal. It is not.
-
Here is there original release:
March 15, 2016
Today the USBC announced that they have pulled approval of the Jackal and Jackal Carnage bowling balls due to non-conformance with current specifications. Recent spot checking in the marketplace showed that both balls had an average differential over the maximum limit of .060.
We are currently working on a form for our website that will allow bowlers to submit their Jackal or Jackal Carnage into a database to become eligible for a replacement ball. We expect the form to be online March 23. While we will not be able to reimburse drilling fees, we will replace the bowling ball with a current model or a future release of the Jackal. More details will be coming soon.
Thank you very much for your business. We sincerely apologize.
It's easy to see why folks expected to start registering the balls for replacement, it's what their own press release says. While the date leaves room that it might be a day or two later, the concept of what would happen is clear. The subsequent information from Motiv did nothing to change that expectation.
The Daily News article contains quotes from Scott Wilbur conveying that same information.
They put the expectation out there. They needed to manage their customers expectations. Any deviation, especially one this big, needed to be conveyed asap.
Again, not saying it's not their right to challenge the findings. Saying this is not how to deal with your customers who are sitting on an unusable product.
I spent over a decade in customer service related areas. When deviating dramatically from what the customer was promised, you advise the customer asap of the change. They may and probably won't like it, but it shows you respect their patronage.
Waiting until 4:40pm on the 23rd, give or take a few, shows little respect for their customers.
We expect the form to be online March 23
That's not exactly carved in stone. And since the information and circumstances changed the situation, they did COMMUNICATE on the 23rd to meet customer expectation of an action item. So they should ignore new information and not pursue what is arguably a more beneficial outcome for both themselves and their customers?
They set the expectation that folks would be registering their unusable balls for replacement. Not to be told they are changing course.
No one is saying they should ignore new information. What I'm saying is that it's completely unreasonable to think that it took them until 4:40pm on the afternoon of the 23rd to decide to fight the ruling. Once the decision to fight the ruling was made, you make that information available to your customers who are affected. Especially since you will be completely changing what they are expecting to happen.
-
If Motiv had released that statement last Wednesday, no one would bat an eye at it. It would be expected. Waiting the nine days, until the day they choose to go live with the replacement form is what doesn't sit well from a customer service standpoint.
-
For the statistical discussion above, based on the tolerance you suggested, for a sample of any size to average at the upper tolerance limit and the population be on target are very low. For a sample of just 4 the probability would be almost zero.
yeah it's a tight spec. which furthers the point.
I must have misunderstood you. It seemed you were arguing that it was to be expected that the individuals could range all the way up to 0.0612, so the fact that there was a sample that averaged that was normal. It is not.
I'm not saying it's 'normal' for the ball, I'm saying the method of measurement is not precise enough to prove that a measurement to that degree of sensitivity is possible. Thus a tolerance range of the measurement has to be acceptable. The one I stated was arbitrary but reasonable.
I'm just asking questions and voicing my own doubts about USBC's ability to determine a ball like the carnage can be validated to be .0004 inches over spec. That is one tenth the thickness of a sheet of 20lb copy paper.
-
If Motiv had released that statement last Wednesday, no one would bat an eye at it. It would be expected. Waiting the nine days, until the day they choose to go live with the replacement form is what doesn't sit well from a customer service standpoint.
8 days, but who's counting.
-
I keep thinking it came out last Monday, not Tuesday.
-
Just to be clear, I don't fault Motiv for fighting this. That would have been my stance from the beginning. The Carnage being .0004 over spec.... Start showing me your data.
It's the customer service side of me that the timing is bothering so much.
Back when I was managing a corporate desktop support helpdesk, saw a technician almost get fired for not advising a client they were running behind and would not be there on time. Many other stories the same way. You manage the customers expectations. They can be mad all they want, but your being honest and upfront as soon as you know things have changed will always save your behind.
-
Here is what I believe.....one of two things are going to happen most likely relatively soon and without a doubt. Either Motiv & USBC will come to a agreement that will result in everyone keeping their current balls or everyone will receive a replacement ball(s).
As I previously stated, I can wait because I refuse to let myself become so emotionally tied to and obsessed with this issue. There are bigger things in my life to worry about that a BOWLING BALL!
-
Maybe they found out who sent the mysterious letter in and decided to check competitors equipment and found they were also out of spec? This could go deep I tell you, deep!
Conspiracy theory ;)
-
There are bigger things in my life to worry about that a BOWLING BALL!
I agree. Bowling isn't my job, it's something fun I do on the side for competition
-
I would be SHOCKED, TOTALLY SHOCKED if the USBC reverses course on this. It would totally ruin any remaining credibility they have. Motiv's only recourse will be a lawsuit and I don't see them doing that. If they lose the lawsuit, they still have to pay for the replacements. Add in legal fees and Motiv could go bankrupt.
In fact, I 100% believe that Motiv is fighting this because they know they will go bankrupt, and possibly out of business, if they have to absorb the costs to replace all of these bowling balls. Motiv already said it will cost at least $1 million to replace all of the balls. I don't see a small company like Motiv having that kind of money just sitting in the bank.
-
I would be SHOCKED, TOTALLY SHOCKED if the USBC reverses course on this. It would totally ruin any remaining credibility they have. Motiv's only recourse will be a lawsuit and I don't see them doing that. If they lose the lawsuit, they still have to pay for the replacements. Add in legal fees and Motiv could go bankrupt.
In fact, I 100% believe that Motiv is fighting this because they know they will go bankrupt, and possibly out of business, if they have to absorb the costs to replace all of these bowling balls. Motiv already said it will cost at least $1 million to replace all of the balls. I don't see a small company like Motiv having that kind of money just sitting in the bank.
They aren't as small as you think. They were in business as Tech-line long before the ball brand came along. They will be fine. I just bet they don't want to be tard & feathered in front of the industries all because a spineless sapien sent in "spin me."
-
I would be SHOCKED, TOTALLY SHOCKED if the USBC reverses course on this. It would totally ruin any remaining credibility they have. Motiv's only recourse will be a lawsuit and I don't see them doing that. If they lose the lawsuit, they still have to pay for the replacements. Add in legal fees and Motiv could go bankrupt.
In fact, I 100% believe that Motiv is fighting this because they know they will go bankrupt, and possibly out of business, if they have to absorb the costs to replace all of these bowling balls. Motiv already said it will cost at least $1 million to replace all of the balls. I don't see a small company like Motiv having that kind of money just sitting in the bank.
I know ball usage tends to be a geographic thing, but I think I've seen maybe 2 Jackals over the past year. It's not like seeing a Storm Assym on every other ball return. I know there are Jackals out there, but there can't be enough to have that kind of impact.
-
Last story I read about Motiv a few years ago, they said they can produce up to 50,000 balls annually at the Muskegon factory. The curing time for each ball is 2.5 weeks from start to finish. If that is still the case, and Motiv intends to resume production of compliant Jackals, they would potentially need to stop production of all other balls for a few weeks to be able to produce enough replacement balls in a timely fashion for all of the bowlers and distributors out there that will be due replacements. Once they get caught up, they could go back to mixing the production line.
I wonder if the $1M Motiv cost being floated out there is a comprehensive number that accounts for tooling, production, potential shortages of other balls, etc.? Or if the $1M is strictly the value of the Jackal units that will need to be swapped out (not considering any other factors)?
How many Jackals are out in the wild at this point? 5,000? 10,000?
-
Last story I read about Motiv a few years ago, they said they can produce up to 50,000 balls annually at the Muskegon factory. The curing time for each ball is 2.5 weeks from start to finish. If that is still the case, and Motiv intends to resume production of compliant Jackals, they would potentially need to stop production of all other balls for a few weeks to be able to produce enough replacement balls in a timely fashion for all of the bowlers and distributors out there that will be due replacements. Once they get caught up, they could go back to mixing the production line.
I wonder if the $1M Motiv cost being floated out there is a comprehensive number that accounts for tooling, production, potential shortages of other balls, etc.? Or if the $1M is strictly the value of the Jackal units that will need to be swapped out (not considering any other factors)?
How many Jackals are out in the wild at this point? 5,000? 10,000?
There is no way they can use the Jackal name after this. It would be to confusing for tournament officials to know which are good and which are illegal.
-
Last story I read about Motiv a few years ago, they said they can produce up to 50,000 balls annually at the Muskegon factory. The curing time for each ball is 2.5 weeks from start to finish. If that is still the case, and Motiv intends to resume production of compliant Jackals, they would potentially need to stop production of all other balls for a few weeks to be able to produce enough replacement balls in a timely fashion for all of the bowlers and distributors out there that will be due replacements. Once they get caught up, they could go back to mixing the production line.
I wonder if the $1M Motiv cost being floated out there is a comprehensive number that accounts for tooling, production, potential shortages of other balls, etc.? Or if the $1M is strictly the value of the Jackal units that will need to be swapped out (not considering any other factors)?
How many Jackals are out in the wild at this point? 5,000? 10,000?
There is no way they can use the Jackal name after this. It would be to confusing for tournament officials to know which are good and which are illegal.
Sure there would: The Jackal Re-cored. :)
-
Last story I read about Motiv a few years ago, they said they can produce up to 50,000 balls annually at the Muskegon factory. The curing time for each ball is 2.5 weeks from start to finish. If that is still the case, and Motiv intends to resume production of compliant Jackals, they would potentially need to stop production of all other balls for a few weeks to be able to produce enough replacement balls in a timely fashion for all of the bowlers and distributors out there that will be due replacements. Once they get caught up, they could go back to mixing the production line.
I wonder if the $1M Motiv cost being floated out there is a comprehensive number that accounts for tooling, production, potential shortages of other balls, etc.? Or if the $1M is strictly the value of the Jackal units that will need to be swapped out (not considering any other factors)?
How many Jackals are out in the wild at this point? 5,000? 10,000?
There is no way they can use the Jackal name after this. It would be to confusing for tournament officials to know which are good and which are illegal.
Not true. They would have to render them a different color and they could use whatever name they want. Notice my attachments. ONe of these balls is legal and the other is not...
-
That blue one looks real nice!
-
Man, I can see a way to cheat already!
Think about the PBA events on television with the blue tinted oil and how it absorbs into the ball showing on the track. All I need is some food coloring and viola, my Jackal is no longer illegal, it's an "overseas" ball. ;D
-
Milo,
I don't know what you do or did for a living, but you missed your calling. You should be on Comedy Club. Your comments regarding a Jackal with a small hand waving the bird, jackal bent over showing you know what, and now a Jackal food coloring ball have cracked me up.
You got a great sense of humor my man. More please.