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Equipment Boards => Motiv => Topic started by: jman76 on March 31, 2016, 09:02:48 AM

Title: Using a Jackal
Post by: jman76 on March 31, 2016, 09:02:48 AM
Last night in my USBC Sanctioned bowling league a bowler in the league was using his Motiv Jackal. I politely told him that the ball was banned and he risked losing his scores if he kept using it. He politely told me that those rules don't pertain to this league. That kind of bothered me because he has been a President of a league before and he knows the rules. I then talked it over with our current league secretary who also happens to be President of our local USBC Association and he said the same exact thing! I said how can you use a ball in a USBC sanctioned league that has been banned? He just kind of grumbled and walked away. Then another guy in our league, who happens to hold his PBA card, notice the bowler using the Jackal as well. He went right up to the Secretary and said the same thing I did. The Secretary said responded by saying that he knew and that he had taken care of it. Really? Because I watched the guy use it all night long and the Secretary never said a word to him. This angered a few teams and mind boggled me that the Secretary and President of our Association turned a blind eye to an obvious rules infraction. I'm not trying to be a big baby about this, but how can you let a bowler use a banned ball? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: WOWZERS on March 31, 2016, 09:23:28 AM
If it went down the way it did, and you want to enforce the ban, you need to report it to the next highest reporting rung above your association.
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: Gene J Kanak on March 31, 2016, 09:36:24 AM
Truth. If your league is certified, then USBC rules have to be followed. To my knowledge, there is no provision that allows local leagues to make their own rules regarding equipment like that. As such, the ball absolutely should've been pulled from play.
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: kidlost2000 on March 31, 2016, 09:57:46 AM
File a protest. Shouldn't be an issue.
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: tommygn on March 31, 2016, 10:07:41 AM
Truth. If your league is certified, then USBC rules have to be followed. To my knowledge, there is no provision that allows local leagues to make their own rules regarding equipment like that. As such, the ball absolutely should've been pulled from play.

To add to what Gene stated.

You can make a rule in a league that only allows certain types of balls in play, like plastic, our urethane only, but those balls HAVE to be USBC approved. You cannot make a rule for a league, that is sanctioned, that allows something that goes directly against USBC specification rules, like non conforming bowling balls, or non compliant lane conditions.
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: milorafferty on March 31, 2016, 10:26:52 AM
He/She gets zero for the night, IF you want to push the issue. If it didn't have an effect on the actual league results, you might not want to fight this particular battle. As we all know, league bowlers can be some of the most unreasonable, petty people on the planet.
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: AMF300bowler on March 31, 2016, 11:17:45 AM
I would report your association president to the the national USBC office. One call to headquarters should take care of this problem.
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: ITZPS on March 31, 2016, 11:36:01 AM
There was a girl who shot her FIRST 300 with a Jackal a couple nights ago because the other pro shop in town told her it was ok to use.  Now, our association heads won't accept/process the paperwork with that ball on it, and they also won't accept paperwork with a different ball marked down, everyone has been informed.  She just kinda got screwed. 

Now does it really matter?  No, ball is illegal because it's illegal, not because there's any reason for that rule being there in the first place, but illegal is still illegal whether there's a good reason for it or not, and telling people not to throw the ball is protection for THEM, not because people think they're cheating by using them.  This girl will likely never throw 300 again, and for her only one, she's not going to get anything.  Mostly because USBC is stupid and that rule is pointless, but I digress . .
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: WOWZERS on March 31, 2016, 11:54:22 AM
Unreal IT. Unreal. I feel horrible for the lady. I hope she can shoot 300 again.
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: Gene J Kanak on March 31, 2016, 01:21:10 PM
Sorry, IT, but the pro shop operator who told her it was okay to use that ball is the one who should feel bad there.
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: jman76 on March 31, 2016, 03:15:33 PM
I would report your association president to the the national USBC office. One call to headquarters should take care of this problem.

Update....I did call the USBC and spoke to the rules department. The lady totally agreed that it was a rules violation and a protest needs to be filed. Here in lies the problem. I would have to file the protest with the League Secretary/Association President and the President of our league. They are like peas in a pod and I'm more than sure any protest would just be tossed right into the trash can. They both said that those rules didn't apply to our league and if they wanted to they could say most balls are illegal anyways because of pin placement. I was cracking up at this point. These are the same two knuckleheads that have yet to certify my buddies 300/800 he shot last year. They said the paperwork fell through some cracks. My buddy has been asking them about it for a year! I explained all of this to the extremely nice lady from the USBC and she said that she understood, but you have to follow the proper procedures. It seems it's just a huge waste of my time and I'll be opening up a huge can of worms. It just pisses me off to no end that people will knowingly cheat.
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: WOWZERS on March 31, 2016, 03:19:39 PM
Sounds like someone needs to open a can of worms on those two for what they did/are doing to your buddy. Might as well stir the pot.

Let us know how it works out and what you do.
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: milorafferty on March 31, 2016, 03:24:11 PM
I would report your association president to the the national USBC office. One call to headquarters should take care of this problem.

Update....I did call the USBC and spoke to the rules department. The lady totally agreed that it was a rules violation and a protest needs to be filed. Here in lies the problem. I would have to file the protest with the League Secretary/Association President and the President of our league. They are like peas in a pod and I'm more than sure any protest would just be tossed right into the trash can. They both said that those rules didn't apply to our league and if they wanted to they could say most balls are illegal anyways because of pin placement. I was cracking up at this point. These are the same two knuckleheads that have yet to certify my buddies 300/800 he shot last year. They said the paperwork fell through some cracks. My buddy has been asking them about it for a year! I explained all of this to the extremely nice lady from the USBC and she said that she understood, but you have to follow the proper procedures. It seems it's just a huge waste of my time and I'll be opening up a huge can of worms. It just pisses me off to no end that people will knowingly cheat.

I would push the issue just because of those two idiots...
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: tommygn on March 31, 2016, 03:30:18 PM
Chad Murphy is on Facebook often. I would pm him and let him know the situation, and the response you received from usbc.

Seems that is  what the national governing body is supposed to do, govern when the local association is out of line.
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: WOWZERS on March 31, 2016, 03:32:08 PM
That's a great idea Tommy!!!!!!
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: jman76 on March 31, 2016, 03:34:43 PM
Chad Murphy is on Facebook often. I would pm him and let him know the situation, and the response you received from usbc.

Seems that us what the national governing body is supposed to do, govern when the local association is out of line.

Thanks for that tip! Great idea!
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: Aloarjr810 on March 31, 2016, 03:46:26 PM


Update....I did call the USBC and spoke to the rules department. The lady totally agreed that it was a rules violation and a protest needs to be filed. Here in lies the problem. I would have to file the protest with the League Secretary/Association President and the President of our league. They are like peas in a pod and I'm more than sure any protest would just be tossed right into the trash can.


follow procedures and file a protest and if they ignore it go up the latter.

(Your going have to prove it in any case, take camera next week take a pic or video of him using it.)


Quote
They both said that those rules didn't apply to our league and if they wanted to they could say most balls are illegal anyways because of pin placement.
Tell them prove it! that the rules don't apply that league.

And tell them as long as the statics weights are legal, the pin can be anywhere, so pin placement don't mean squat as far as the ball being legal.


Quote
I was cracking up at this point. These are the same two knuckleheads that have yet to certify my buddies 300/800 he shot last year. They said the paperwork fell through some cracks. My buddy has been asking them about it for a year!
These guys just don't want to do the job.

 
Quote
I explained all of this to the extremely nice lady from the USBC and she said that she understood, but you have to follow the proper procedures. It seems it's just a huge waste of my time and I'll be opening up a huge can of worms. It just pisses me off to no end that people will knowingly cheat.

 If someone is not prepared to step up to the plate and protest, don't whine & worry about it anymore.

That's like someone seeing a bank robbery and saying I not getting involved and not call the police.

That right there is what's wrong bowling, not the USBC or the ball companies or proprietors. It's the bowler's saying I don't want to get involved, let someone else do it.
 
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: jman76 on March 31, 2016, 03:54:11 PM


Update....I did call the USBC and spoke to the rules department. The lady totally agreed that it was a rules violation and a protest needs to be filed. Here in lies the problem. I would have to file the protest with the League Secretary/Association President and the President of our league. They are like peas in a pod and I'm more than sure any protest would just be tossed right into the trash can.


follow procedures and file a protest and if they ignore it go up the latter.

(Your going have to prove it in any case, take camera next week take a pic or video of him using it.)


Quote
They both said that those rules didn't apply to our league and if they wanted to they could say most balls are illegal anyways because of pin placement.
Tell them prove it! that the rules don't apply that league.

And tell them as long as the statics weights are legal, the pin can be anywhere, so pin placement don't mean squat as far as the ball being legal.


Quote
I was cracking up at this point. These are the same two knuckleheads that have yet to certify my buddies 300/800 he shot last year. They said the paperwork fell through some cracks. My buddy has been asking them about it for a year!
These guys just don't want to do the job.

 
Quote
I explained all of this to the extremely nice lady from the USBC and she said that she understood, but you have to follow the proper procedures. It seems it's just a huge waste of my time and I'll be opening up a huge can of worms. It just pisses me off to no end that people will knowingly cheat.

 If someone is not prepared to step up to the plate and protest, don't whine & worry about it anymore.

That's like someone seeing a bank robbery and saying I not getting involved and not call the police.

That right there is what's wrong bowling, not the USBC or the ball companies or proprietors. It's the bowler's saying I don't want to get involved, let someone else do it.

I couldn't agree more with what you are saying and I'm filling out the protest tonight and it will be turned in tomorrow. I don't know what will happen, but I totally agree that something has to be done. Thanks everyone for all of your responses!
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: tommygn on March 31, 2016, 03:58:13 PM
Local association is an extension of the national organization. Their job is to uphold the standards and rules set forth by the National governing body. If the local association is playing the good Ole boys club, everyone suffers.
If all other dues paying members have to follow the rules, then so do they. It's really that simple, IMHO.
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: 12XSECH on April 01, 2016, 09:24:46 AM
Who cares if use it? Did he bowl a 900 with the "illegal ball" were his scores out of whack with the rest of the league scores? Did anyone complain 3 weeks ago that he was bowling 900 after 900 with this ball? NO! because it didnt happen. He's probably a regular league guy with a normal avg,,, but since the usbc said this ball is banned ...Now everybody thinks this ball has some extra juice that their ball doesnt. Stop the crying over something that doesnt even matter.
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: jman76 on April 01, 2016, 09:38:42 AM
Who cares if use it? Did he bowl a 900 with the "illegal ball" were his scores out of whack with the rest of the league scores? Did anyone complain 3 weeks ago that he was bowling 900 after 900 with this ball? NO! because it didnt happen. He's probably a regular league guy with a normal avg,,, but since the usbc said this ball is banned ...Now everybody thinks this ball has some extra juice that their ball doesnt. Stop the crying over something that doesnt even matter.

Obviously the USBC cares if anyone uses it that's why the two balls have been banned. It's not the point of the scores, it's knowingly using something that has been deemed illegal. If it's no big deal to use it, then why are you returning yours and getting a different ball? Oh yea, because you can't use it in USBC sanctioned leagues or tournaments. All you do is complain about everything the USBC does or doesn't do and were first to jump all over Motiv on how they are handling everything.  I'm still mind boggled that you bowl in anything USBC sanctioned because of everything they do wrong on a daily basis. You will continue to complain about everything the USBC stands for, but continue to use there resources. If it's no big deal to use it, then why were they banned?
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: Urethane Game on April 01, 2016, 09:39:46 AM
We talk a bunch about integrity in bowling but this seems more like an issue of personal integrity.  If you knowingly violate a rule, whether you agree with it or not, speaks a good deal to that person's character.

As for that doesn't apply in this league, I'd walk down the gutter cap and chuck a ball from 10 feet or so and see if fouling applied in the league.

I'd also say that the USBC is doing a disservice to members by not providing more information to bowlers and league officials who may not follow bowling as closely as many of us do on this board. 
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: WOWZERS on April 01, 2016, 09:46:03 AM
How many times in golf do we hear of someone taking a penalty or DQ'ing himself/herself because a rule violation that nobody else would probably ever know about? Personal integrity is correct.

If you want to bowl in a USBC league, you need to use USBC certified products.

Hey 12...if I were to go bowl a regional right now, should I take my Visionary stuff that is not sanctioned and tell them its no big deal because A) my scores are not out of whack and B) I didn't shoot 300 or 900?

I think we know what the PBA would say...the USBC told Jman the same thing.
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: 12XSECH on April 01, 2016, 09:48:23 AM
Im getting a replacement so I dont have to hear the lil bitches whine. I'll us it in any non usbc event...which there are plenty of.
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: tommygn on April 01, 2016, 09:51:22 AM
Here's the thing that must be eluding me. Some people are saying that it's no big deal, because you can drill a ball that starts out under 0.060, and make it over with how you carve the core. Yes, it can be done, BUT than it also stands to reason, that if you can take a 0.058 ball and increase the diff by 10-15%, then you can ALSO increase the 0.060 diff by 10-15%???? Isn't that an added advantage????

If I'm wrong, than please, someone correct me on this line of thinking. Just sayin'......
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: 12XSECH on April 01, 2016, 09:57:22 AM
Wow, the PBA never approved visionary then one random day pulled the plug on it. Visionary didint pony up the ransom that the PBA requires. If some was using the jackal all year, nobody should care...if someone just went out and bought one ...then that's a different story. Are you feeling the Bern?
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: WOWZERS on April 01, 2016, 09:57:59 AM
Use it in practice all day long...use it in anything nonUSBC sanctioned. No issues there.

Tommy

The reason the USBC set .060 as the diff max for an undrilled core is because that is the only way they could control the max diff, but that all changes once we throw some holes in the ball. However, the USBC could not measure every ball for a final diff, so the USBC chose to use an undrilled # which should be static for each unit made under a particular model.

As we have also talked about before, if I find an Immortal or Super Carbide Bomb or an AMB Centaur (and I just did find a particle version) those balls all start with diff ABOVE .060...but those balls were grandfathered in as they were approved under the old rules....new rules stated max diff for an undrilled ball is .060.

So I am going to go drill my AMB Particle Centaur that has a bigger undrilled diff than the Jackal Carnage, and it is 100% legal based on the rules USBC has currently.

Makes a lot of sense, right?

I am not a fan of the USBC...but it is the rules we have to follow if we decide to bowl in a USBC sanctioned league.
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: WOWZERS on April 01, 2016, 10:00:15 AM
Ummm..no BERN here...because the end result is the same. Whatever reason, VBP is not eligible to be used on the PBA and the Jackals cannot be used in any USBC competition. PBA wouldn't allow anyone to use VBP and I would not try. Why would you want to break the rules knowingly? Its like walking in front of a police office and snorting a line of Coke....you are asking for trouble by doing something you know is illegal, regardless of your person thoughts on the subject.

Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: Gene J Kanak on April 01, 2016, 10:13:19 AM
Im getting a replacement so I dont have to hear the lil bitches whine. I'll us it in any non usbc event...which there are plenty of.

You show your lack of intelligence with posts like this one. Nobody is claiming that you have an advantage by using that ball. If you're good, you'll be good with that ball or any other. If you suck, you'll suck with that ball or any other. That's never been the point. The point is that the rules say that ball is now illegal. As such, you're not allowed to use it. If you do use it, you're breaking rules and subject to penalties. It seems like the whining is coming from you.
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: tommygn on April 01, 2016, 10:17:57 AM
Wowzers,

I know and understand that. I guess I wasn't really asking, as much as being sarcastic. The difference with finding one of those older balls is, that the cover material on the older balls wasn't created with current oils in mind, new balls are. Bottomline, if you take a modern coverstock, and create the most potential flair by altering the core shape, you are increasing traction throughout the entire lane, something that is more beneficial to lower rev, higher speed dominate players, or bowlers bowling on true heavy volumes of oil. I haven't worked with the maps program to really see how carving a core changes ending values, I just go by past experience of knowing what layout I need to use, depending on my customer. If I max out a 0.045 diff ball, a 0.058 diff ball, and a 0.060 ball, the 0.060 ball is going to have the greatest chance of creating the most track flare and yield the highest chance of having fresh cover touching the lane to create traction. You go over that number and the scaled percentages go up consistently with the diff numbers. Basically, I think it would be easier to create an ending diff of 0.070 out of a 0.061 ball, than it would be out of a 0.055 ball. There has to be a point where all manufactures have to have a pre-drilled limit.
The point is, people act like just because you can take a ball and go over the number, that these balls should be over-looked. I'm just saying that the percentages are in the favor of a ball with a higher diff to create more traction, especially with some of the oils that have been coming out these last few years. I know personally, I need to use stronger layouts than years past, to create proper roll through the pins, especially when I see Ice oil on Pro-Anvilehang.

Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: WOWZERS on April 01, 2016, 10:37:54 AM
Tommy

Sorry about that.

You are 100% correct. I would argue though that Visionary is still using the React A Tack covers (or very familial versions) which is what was the base for the AMB Centaurs covers.

I don't know physics well enough, but you would think or want to believe that a ball with a greater diff to start has the potential to end with a greater diff than balls with lower diffs. I would think that it is tougher to get the dynamics out of a static core compared to a hopped up monster, like the Guru core, the Jackal core, etc. 
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: WOWZERS on April 01, 2016, 10:39:58 AM
Gene

Very well said.
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: 12XSECH on April 02, 2016, 06:33:36 AM
People "cheat" in every league, every night...Polishing part of the ball, sanding in the track area only, illegally drilled balls etc....There is more cheating going on out there then a ball thats 1/10000 over in diff...Clean up your leagues before you start trying to clean up an industry.
Title: Re: Using a Jackal
Post by: WOWZERS on April 02, 2016, 05:14:11 PM
Nobody is trying to clean up an industry...just trying to get through peoples head that it is not ok to disregard the rules, especially a blatant disregard Jman had in his league. Regardless of the reason, regardless of what anyone thinks, its the rule.