Post by: walt8398 on March 17, 2009, 01:59:21 AM
This is a topic as a tournament director that I had to start because I think people need to know what it's like from a TD's perspective.
We (VMSBT & 40BBT) run tournaments because we love the game and the spirit of GOOD competition. Neither one of us are trying to pay our mortgages or car payments by running these tournaments. In fact, on occasion we both have paid more than 100% of the prize fund.
The two gripes that I have as a tournament director is the constant complaints about the scores and right/left issue. I know the right/left issue will never die. I've been bowling long enough (30+ years) to know that will go on FOREVER!
Just recently we were told that players with certain games would stop coming to events because they felt they couldn't strike enough. These are players that have won before and had success when the shots are in certain areas of the lane. As a TD we poll the bowlers to hear what type of conditions that you guys would like to see. For the past 2-3 years the choice has been the PBAX patterns. Now, it's no secret that those patterns really catered to the players who play straighter and have lower rev rates. Four out of five of the animal patterns played out and I didn't hear the guys that hook it complain or say they weren't coming to bowl anymore because they couldn't get right/strike enough. Now that the PBA has changed the ratios and length on all of the animal patterns the players that "boom it" are EATING very well. I'm sure the straight players are lighting up the phones in Seattle with complaints and bending the laneman's ear every week. Trust me it happens. I was a PBA member for 16 years and I've seen HOFers complain to lanemen for hours on end. Here is the difference between the PBA and our local events. WE DON'T TRAVEL AROUND WITH A $30k LANE MACHINE TO SHUT OUT A CERTAIN STYLE OR HAND! When we are fortunate enough to have a center that will allow us to choose a pattern, we ALWAYS choose a pattern that is FAIR. If there is OB, it will be on both sides of the lane. If the gutter is sparking, it will spark on both sides. Sometimes we are at the mercy of the center's house shot. House shot are OK every now and then (as I have stated in other threads) but aren't the norm. These are once a month events run by TDs who also bowl. So we know what it's like to lace 'em up.
Tournament bowling was DEAD in our area from about '98 - '02. We have it good now with 3 tournament organizations. We should support ALL of our local events. 40BBT and VMSBT work very hard promoting there respective annual events. WE DO IT BECAUSE WE WANT TO NOT BECAUSE WE HAVE TO.
--------------------
Tony Walton
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com
Edited on 3/17/2009 10:08 AM
Edited on 3/17/2009 10:09 AM
Post by: Mike L on March 17, 2009, 10:31:26 AM
The fact is and ive said this for almost a year now, your tournament bowlers, the 20-30 that bowl alot, want tougher shots, however most of those guys would still bowl on house shots, because they do feel they can strike just as much as anyone else. The key is getting the 210-230 league bowlers to bowl. Once again I still believe these guys want to see their ball boomerang back. Honestly though, even when they are walled up, how many of those guys actually win? Very few, because the good bowlers will always adapt to the pace, whether its local stuff of PBA tournaments, the best usually will always find a way to be competitive.
Does it suck bowling has come to this, of course, but its just the way it is. I bowl this week in Hagerstown in a $50 per team doubles tournament on a dead wall. Fills up with 48 teams every month, they get over 120 singles brds and 40-50 doubles brds. 96 guys bowling every tournament, when is the last time the VA/MD tourneys had that many guys, been a long time. Its a terrible thing but it is what it is! Just my .02
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: walt8398 on March 17, 2009, 10:44:40 AM
Money Bags was a prime example of that in my opinion. They had the GREAT WALL OF CHINA (blatant 10 to 10) and he had 70+ open division entries I truly believe because the shot was "adult bumper bowling". To further prove your point, Martin Bedford won it going away and not a house bowler in sight. This will last until the house guys realize they cannot beat the regular tournament bowler across the house in a tournament forum. They too will stop putting up their money. Same thing used to happen back in "the day" with pot games. House legends stop coming when they are not getting a sniff of the money.
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Tony Walton
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com
Post by: wabullets on March 17, 2009, 10:52:06 AM
quote:
96 guys bowling every tournament, when is the last time the VA/MD tourneys had that many guys, been a long time. Its a terrible thing but it is what it is! Just my .02
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"Typical House Bowler"
Red Eye Classic.....granted it is a once a year event..........but did have 96
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on March 17, 2009, 11:00:51 AM
--------------------
Baker...Why doesn't my ball h
k?40 Boards & A Ball - www.40boards.com
Is your Ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Stepp's Glen Burnie Pro Shop
Post by: Mike L on March 17, 2009, 11:27:07 AM
--------------------
"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on March 17, 2009, 11:37:30 AM
The key is to get those 190-240 league bowlers to start coming out to boost the entries. Many of us who bowl regularly were one of those bowlers who fit that category and through the years we improved (hopefully). If the scores are low event after event, guess how long it will be before you’re thankful to have 20 entries. If you want to bowl on something demanding every month, we all know where to go and we all know how many entries will be there before arriving. Repeatedly you can hear the bowlers asking, “Where is everyone?†If you are looking for those “league bowler†entries they have been going to Money Bags and I commend them for getting some folks out to bowl that have never had the “heart†to do so before. So what the top hat is down, I guess all of the good players cannot strike when the condition is soft.
Running tournaments is a thankless job and I know someone will say, "You're making money!" A great tournament equals us leaving with $200 but you have to put some of that aside to account for the $100 toner you are using up to print standings, side action and flyers (paper is not free) for the next event. 40 Boards has not had an expense line because we are trying to do something for those that want to bowl, so when something goes wrong, we foot the bill out of our money. There are plenty of bowlers who profit more than us at every tournament, that’s just how it goes.
One thing that folks don’t realize until you sit behind the desk, the biggest complainers are those folks that want to claim they will bowl on anything. “They will bowl on anything†means if the shot is to my liking, I am happy and the shot is fair. And if those bowlers aren’t happy, they are chirping in your ear and telling you how to run the tournament and how you have shut them out! I am cool with trading places with anyone who would like the headache. Just let me pay my money and bowl while you they do the work. All of the area tournament directors go to work 40+ hours a week, give up some of their free time to organize/run a tournament for you to bowl and then the reward is juggling everyone’s personal demands.
I am adopting a practice used in Vegas going forward, the addition of a “Complaint Jar†on the sign up table. $1 per complaint! Don’t ask if you can pay $2 and make 3 complaints either. LOL
--------------------
Baker...Why doesn't my ball h
k?40 Boards & A Ball - www.40boards.com
Is your Ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Stepp's Glen Burnie Pro Shop
Post by: Phoneman on March 17, 2009, 11:58:05 AM
Post by: ctk4life on March 17, 2009, 12:35:18 PM
Post by: Mike L on March 17, 2009, 12:43:47 PM
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: BackToBasics on March 17, 2009, 01:30:18 PM
I guess I have a different perspective now that I have been playing some scratch golf touranments. No complaints from the golfers if it's too windy...or too cold...or the pins are tucked in unfair places. They just go out and play the course and post a score.
I haven't bowled well at all this year so I get to hear a lot of the complaints and Tony and Jeff should both increase their expenses just to listen to them. Just show up, find out the pattern during practice and bowl.
--------------------
Anthony Chapman
Roto Grip Staff 2009
Vise Grips Staff 2009
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on March 17, 2009, 01:49:51 PM
The problem right now are all of us that bowl! To much griping about this and that, we all need to get back to bowling 101. Walk in, bring your 100 balls and line up to score! Thank you Chap, I could not have summarized it better.
To quote "RD", "If program provides excellent marketing, service and product, there are no complaints and everyone is happy." If it were only that easy...
--------------------
Baker...Why doesn't my ball h
k?40 Boards & A Ball - www.40boards.com
Is your Ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Stepp's Glen Burnie Pro Shop
Post by: walt8398 on March 17, 2009, 02:03:15 PM
Are you kidding me? Businessmen and marketing? This isn't a fortune 500 company or franchise either one of are starting up! You are missing the point. I'm complaining because as Jeff and I stated before.... WE DON'T HAVE TO RUN TOURNAMENTS AT ALL! Neither one of us are looking at this as BUSINESS as you so stated in your post.
Since you want to talk marketing... Last year I had the first B/W Summer Scratch Classic that paid $3,000 for 1st GUARANTEED. I advertised/MARKETED the event for 5 1/2 months at various events I bowled in NJ/NY/DE/PA/MD/VA/OH/MA. We had 139 entries. Do you know how many local entries I had? Less than 40! You know why? They knew that I wasn't putting out a TOP HAT pattern. Talk to anyone that bowled on last year's BW SSC pattern (which was Kegel's Broadway pattern) and they will tell you that it was VERY PLAYABLE.
The locals will go out of town to bowl. Egos can't get bruised just in case they bowl bad. Nobody there to witness it.
I was able to drum up a $3k GUARANTEED prize fund, balls from Columbia 300 and trophies donated from a trophy company in NJ. Don't know what else to do in order to get the locals out. If it takes the a TOP HAT condition to do it, not going to happen.
40BBT advertises/MARKETS their annual Opposites Attract mixed doubles event a year in advance. As well as they promote this event, it should sell out every year. It doesn't because year one the pattern was TOUGH.. REAL TOUGH. The spray it left/right bowlers left with their "jaws tight". Nothing but complaints.
The effort in advertising/marketing is there but the local participation isn't.
RD2731 - Please put together an event so Jeff and I can participate. After your event is done, I want you to tell us all about your experience.....
--------------------
Tony Walton
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com
Edited on 3/17/2009 2:50 PM
Post by: LAStrikesALot on March 17, 2009, 02:48:21 PM
It's tough sitting behind the desk.
Jeff and I are always open to requests, ideas, and criticisms. We try to keep an open mind concerning everyone's ideas. The thing is, every single person with an "idea" swears that they "know what the bowlers want." You tell me, if person A is saying something different then persons B and C, but all claim to have the "know" on what it is our events need to draw more entries, who is right? How can 3 different people all saying something different all be right?
This is what we put up with month after month with Boards & Balls Tour and year after year with Opposite's Attract. It does get old, it's true.
I'm not saying people should support us just because of our efforts or anything like that. I don't think that is what Jeff or Tony is saying either.
I think the point is that, too many people are disillusioned with their ability, and more importantly, too many people have lost sight of the spirit of competition. No matter what pattern we put down, there will be complainers. They will usually be of the 5 out of 6 people that don't cash, even if they were the same person that was part of the 1 out of 6 that cashed the month or week before.
I want to see bowlers get some heart. No matter what the shot is or isnt, everyone in the field is playing on it. Every event is an opportunity to learn something that can be used to perfect one's game. But bowlers now are just too conditioned to having it handed to them that they don't want to work for it anymore. And you know what, that is fine because there are events, including some of ours, that provide the opportunity to have it "handed" to you in the form of a house shot. And even that isn't good enough, because for the people that want house shots, and we give some % of house shots, they will still complain on the one event they attend that isn't house shot. It's really a no win.
I'm not behind the desk to prove anything or buy my next car. I just want to give people something to bowl. We will never satisfy everyone, but hopefully we can figure out how to satisfy most. I think what Tony and Jeff are getting at though, is that, its unfortunate that so many opportunities exist for local bowlers now to bowl in whatever type of event they want, be it house shot tournament, sport shot tournament, pbax tournament, doubles tournament, marathon tournament, you name it, and still there is always folks whining. Just lace em up and bowl!
/rant
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Latise Parker
40 Boards & A Ball
www.40boards.com
Edited on 3/17/2009 3:00 PM
Edited on 3/17/2009 3:03 PM
Edited on 3/17/2009 3:05 PM
Post by: Current Exempt on March 17, 2009, 06:54:35 PM
Until you start calling people out with your complaints by name than none of this has revellance. I don't think any of you realize that there is no answer. The PBA offers the TQR to ANYONE every week the tour is going on. They can't get more than 100 entries on a "tough" shot. That means every regional member and amateur within a 5 hour drive could lace them up. Do they? No! Why? No answer. Make it a "great wall of china" pattern at a local center and you get 30-40 guys on avg.....Why? No answer. The game is gone and it is not coming back. T.Chapman is right with the golf comparison. Bowling will always be like this. If a bowler bowls well and wins there is always a "because" ( he is right/left handed, the shot was outside, he sprayed the ball 10 boards and still struck, he can only score with resin and today's technology)
Bowlers complain,TD's complain, people watching complain. We are all a bunch of whiners. That is how all of us have been brought up in this game.
Post by: Current Exempt on March 17, 2009, 07:00:56 PM
Post by: walt8398 on March 17, 2009, 07:23:29 PM
That's good for you. We need youth tournaments.
But as far as offsetting my income, I'm not making any payments for beach front properties with the money from my events.
As far as me running youth events, I don't want to deal with OVERBEARING parents. Not jealous of Money Bags at all. I'm VERY HAPPY for Barry Tyler and his crew. As I've stated before, I've known Barry and his brothers since his mother was pregnant with them bowling at FL University. Barry was one of my pupils as a youth bowler and I am very proud of what he is doing with MBST.
This thread was started just to state my point of view as a TD. Bowling isn't what it once was. I'll always believe that brackets has helped and hurt tournament bowling. It is no more about just winning the tournament anymore.
--------------------
Tony Walton
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com
Post by: walt8398 on March 17, 2009, 07:37:14 PM
I repeat.... VMSBT isn't envious of Money Bags entries.
My gripe is the complaining about the conditions and left/right. Thank you PBA for starting the STUPID trend of announcing the lane condition. I do understand the idea behind it when the new owners took over because of the secrecy the lane maintenance crew had under the old PBA. Nothing like coming out for the 3rd round of qualifying and the pattern not EVEN close to the first day.
Bowling has been ruined by the high tech bowling balls and cake conditions. How can we approve pre-bowled 900s (2 of them) and I think about 10 others with these NUCLEAR BOWLING BALLS and not give Glen Allison his ring when he did it with a Yellow Dot drilled conventional in '82?
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Tony Walton
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com
Edited on 3/17/2009 7:42 PM
Edited on 3/17/2009 7:42 PM
Post by: Donald Trump on March 17, 2009, 09:08:32 PM
Post by: Current Exempt on March 17, 2009, 09:29:49 PM
Once resin came out Bobby had a fish on the hook with Walton
Post by: BackToBasics on March 17, 2009, 10:45:07 PM
Post by: CBass1724 on March 18, 2009, 08:53:26 AM
quote:
The red-eye is exactly the thing im talking about.....whos the last house guy to win that tournament? Bottom line is, if you want Joe Bowler to bowl on a regualr basis, it seems they need to be easy. Look at Jim Smiths quick and cheap, use to get 80-100 total entries when they were easy, started putting out PBA patterns and couldn't get 40 total. Any good bowler will always want them tougher, but on the same hand they will still bowl when they are easy.
You were the last house guy to win the Red-Eye!
All kidding aside, everything that needs to be said about entries and conditions is in the blocked quote above.
I would guess there are around 15-20 guys (give or take a few) in the area that will bowl anything no matter how hard or easy the conditions are - so they will show up no matter what. Unfortunately they are in the minority and you cannot cater to the minority. The majority in nova/dc/md are the HOUSE BOWLERS who have insanely high averages and like high scores. They won't bowl when it's tough because most of the time they won't do well or they won't enjoy it. It's their money and if they don't want to bowl on something difficult where they will lose, you can't blame them.
The only way to attract the masses is to put out an easy shot. Everybody likes to bowl well, so let them have high scores! Nevermind the fact that those 15-20 guys that show up everywhere (hard or easy) do most of the winning, but you need the so-called "donators" to show up to boost the prize fund and number of cash spots.
Side action is where a lot of the money is at anyway, for TD's and the players, (brackets, surv board, etc) and you just need those special 8 guys that want EVERYTHING. If you supplement the house bowlers into that pool, your chances of having (in theory) infinite brackets is greater. If you have 20 people show up to a tournament, obviously it is harder to run a boat load of brackets.
The bottom line is if you want entries, wall 'em up. Those guys that travel everywhere to bowl and prefer the hard stuff (trust me, I understand where you are coming from)...well it's not really about what you want, it's about what everybody else wants because you are outnumbered in the bowling community.
As far as the left/right issue, it is just a matter of less traffic being on the left. If it's hard on the left in the beginning, the chances of it breaking down and getting easier is slim. Same thing if it starts off easy, more than likely it will stay that way. We all know the right side changes frame to frame because of the equipment (read: SURFACE) being used these days as well as the quantity of bowlers on that side. It is just the way it is and you can't please everybody.
Also, the announcement of the details of the pattern being used is just plain ridiculous. I am all for telling people whether it is a house shot or a sport shot (because if it's a THS that = more entries!) -- but just leave it at that! Getting into length, volume, etc. is just unnecessary.
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C.J.
Post by: CBass1724 on March 18, 2009, 09:09:33 AM
Either way I'd personally get my brains beat in no matter what, but we agreed that the obvious choice was the THS. His advantage on the tougher pattern is far greater than it would be on a THS. At least if the match was on a THS, I know that if I carry well, I can beat him. It doesn't mean that anybody is better than him if they beat WRW on a THS, but the point of this example is that you'd show up to try if the shot was easy.
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C.J.
Post by: LAStrikesALot on March 18, 2009, 09:50:54 AM
quote:
TD and bowlers get paid regardless of the outcome. If the TD is not getting paid or compensatied, then what is the purpose of an administration fee, membership fee and insurance clause?
Not true at all. 40 Boards does not the cut monthly tournaments AT ALL. All entry fee money goes to the prize fund minus bowling fees.
If we wanted to make money, we would start a real business that is profitable.
Just like some donate their time to the youth for scholarships, we donate our time to adults for the integrity of the game and in the spirit of competition.
No one is complaining here because we don't make money or because we don't get as many entries as Money Bags. I think the complaint is more like a vent that despite people's attempts to make the masses happy, it just doesn't happen. It's quite annoying to try every month to make our events what the bowlers want--large payouts, lots of brackets--and then on top of not necessarily succeeding at that, have to put up with the whining of those that do come out just because that particular month the shot didn't play to their strengths (house shot or not).
I can think of at least 5 people that have told me on differnet occasions that they don't want to come out to play for $500 with 20-30 guys there. Some of them show up to the event and proudly proclaim, "i'm not bowling if there aren't 30 guys." Ok, that is your right. But if those 5 guys all showed up, that's almost one more spot we would pay in our event. It's that whole circle thing. Can't get more entries (and pay more) unless people come out but people won't come out because of (they claim) a lack of entries (and payout).
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Latise Parker
40 Boards & A Ball
www.40boards.com
Edited on 3/18/2009 11:09 AM
Post by: walt8398 on March 18, 2009, 09:56:20 AM
Thank you. Very well said.
--------------------
Tony Walton
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on March 18, 2009, 10:27:26 AM
*Sept @ Ritchie Yvette Ford's ladies league shot
*Oct @ Dundalk house shot, it was slightly unpredictable pair to pair.
*Nov @ Annandale their version of the PBA Shark
*Jan @ Ft. Meade Kegel's Rt. 66 and it played tighter than I have ever seen it play
*Feb @ Bowl America Glen Burnie house
*Mar @ Laurel house
So for those that think we make it overly complicated shot wise, we don't! Bowlers tend to pick and choose but then you miss "your day" possibly by doing that.
The first year we ran Opposites Attract Mixed Doubles we tried something, it did not work as they were brutal. Last year, we modified the house shot and the scores were reasonable to make the cuts. On a whole, the field was okay with the pattern so we are hoping it works out the same this year.
--------------------
Baker...Why doesn't my ball h
k?40 Boards & A Ball - www.40boards.com
Is your Ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Stepp's Glen Burnie Pro Shop
Post by: CBass1724 on March 18, 2009, 11:40:46 AM
For these folks, they do it because they love the game of bowling and they all know that it SHOULD be competed on tougher patterns, as well as the easy ones. They know if they announce a tougher pattern, entries will be down, but you can't expect bowling to survive if you only bowl on easy shots. There is a happy medium somewhere but I'm not sure where that point is.
There is also a reason why there are no PBA National title holders from our area.
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C.J.
Edited on 3/18/2009 11:53 AM
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on March 18, 2009, 11:56:56 AM
Maryland has several bowlers with national level accomplishments. In 1983 Mike Lastowski won the Masters, plus we have PBA title holders Tim Criss & Danny Wiseman.
VMSBT & Money Bags aren't taking from the bowlers by asking for $5 in expense money. All of our "business models" are on the same level. TNBA is a BUSINESS and for those of you who don't do the math, let me break it down...
2009 Eastern Rhodman (this weekend)
Men 36% Women & seniors 35%
Do any of you know what those numbers represent? Those numbers represent the percent of your entry fee that you will never see again! Thanks to USBC's rules, tournaments are allowed to group lineage and expense money on one line! This is significant because it keeps the bowlers from knowing EXACTLY what was paid to the house and what was paid to their pocket.
That's an organization in it for the business!
--------------------
Baker...Why doesn't my ball h
k?40 Boards & A Ball - www.40boards.com
Is your Ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Stepp's Glen Burnie Pro Shop
Post by: rotomike on March 18, 2009, 12:08:15 PM
Cbass-
Tour Titlists:
Danny Wiseman
Joy Esterson
Kendra (Cameron) Gaines
Regional Champions:
Jim Lewis
Terry Wiley (if I am not mistaken)
Bobby Hall
Kenny Lowe
Chris Blackmore
(I'm very sure I have missed many more sorry guys
)Team USA:
Tony Chapman (National Amateur Champion)
Kendra (Cameron) Gaines
John Gaines
Joy Esterson
I don't think that is the point...
There is a climate today where it is so much easier to tear down versus build up.
The distinction between Handicap and Scratch has also been pushed wider by ABT and NABI being on the scene.
The biggest issue is that people are now too complacement and afraid to put themselves out there for fear of failure and how much work it is to get better on shots that is not the Wednesday Night Mens HDCP condition.
Back in the day I was living in Catonsville but drove to Annandale to compete in the NOVA All-stars league. Long drive home at 1am. WHY? Cause that was where the competition was. Very few people are willing to put themselves out there like that today. "Why should I drive all that way to struggle when I can bowl my 3 or 6 games per week and average 225 and make my ego happy? "
We now have 3 - 4 solid tournament organizers. Let's try not to tear them down.
BTW for tournament purposes there should be NO announcement of the tournament condition until the tournament is over.
Just my ramblings....back to work
Post by: CBass1724 on March 18, 2009, 12:09:54 PM
quote:
RD and CBass slow down...
Maryland has several bowlers with national level accomplishments. In 1983 Mike Lastowski won the Masters, plus we have PBA title holders Tim Criss & Danny Wiseman.
VMSBT & Money Bags aren't taking from the bowlers by asking for $5 in expense money. All of our "business models" are on the same level. TNBA is a BUSINESS and for those of you who don't do the math, let me break it down...
I guess I view Baltimore as sort of being out of our immediate "area" but Criss and Wiseman are in a class of their own. Usually the only local stuff they bowl are/were the Hammer 5k and 10k's. I'm sort of talking about people closer into DC that grew up on bumper bowling. In my opinion EVD will get a title very soon. Also the common theme here is non-NOVA bowlers, LOL.
I hope you didn't take my post the wrong way Jeff. I said if you guys were into it for the money, then you'd only be worried about getting max entries, which increases the total brackets. My point is that you guys do it for the game of bowling which involves bowling on harder shots, which includes losing entries on those days.
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C.J.
Post by: LAStrikesALot on March 18, 2009, 12:11:54 PM
We're talking about adults here, who pay for the own tournaments, equipment, league, practice, and the like. Youth bowling tends to have the "handicap mentality" as I call it. Where everyone gets something, and kids are just happy to be bowling. This wouldn't be the first or only example of situations where perhaps adults should take a lesson from the kids.
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Latise Parker
40 Boards & A Ball
www.40boards.com
Post by: dogman666 on March 18, 2009, 12:13:25 PM
I like to give all my money to the good bowlers.
Post by: CBass1724 on March 18, 2009, 12:14:47 PM
quote:
Random ramblings before I go into a meeting...
Cbass-
Tour Titlists:
Danny Wiseman
Joy Esterson
Kendra (Cameron) Gaines
Regional Champions:
Jim Lewis
Terry Wiley (if I am not mistaken)
Bobby Hall
Kenny Lowe
Chris Blackmore
(I'm very sure I have missed many more sorry guys
Team USA:
Tony Chapman (National Amateur Champion)
Kendra (Cameron) Gaines
John Gaines
Joy Esterson
I don't think that is the point...
That's why I said "PBA NATIONAL", not regionals, team USA, or the ladies...no disrespect intended to any of them.
But yeah it really wasn't the point. You would think that with as many bowlers as there are in this area that the list of great bowlers and accomplishments would be higher, right?
EDIT:
The point is if you want entries, make them easy. If you want competition to make the bowlers better, make them harder. The reason that list of people with great accomplishments is so short is that not many people want to better themselves on harder shots.
I'd say the ratio of bowlers is heavily weighted towards the MD side. People near me in NOVA are so used to the Bowl America generic house shots that they don't want to bowl on anything but that type of shot.
--------------------
C.J.
Edited on 3/18/2009 12:27 PM
Post by: wabullets on March 18, 2009, 12:24:59 PM
quote:
Random ramblings before I go into a meeting...
Cbass-
Tour Titlists:
Danny Wiseman
Joy Esterson
Kendra (Cameron) Gaines
Regional Champions:
Jim Lewis
Terry Wiley (if I am not mistaken)
Bobby Hall
Kenny Lowe
Chris Blackmore
(I'm very sure I have missed many more sorry guys
While you said it isnt the point.......just trying to give props to a few you left off Mike on the regional level....
Tony Walton, Magic Gray, Mark Glover, Rich Dodge, Rich Wolfe, Greg Goetz, Bruce Hollen, Howard Marshall, Wiseman, Criss (all time leader in the east region), Ray Shackleford, Chris Johnson, John Gaines, Mark Bowers..SR's Donny Carr and Dave Kneas.....and I am sure there are names I may be forgetting and some of the names the "newer" bowlers may not even recognize or have seen them bowl....I dont believe Terry Wiley has won....though I do feel the way he is playing, it will come!
Now back on topic ......
Edited on 3/18/2009 12:26 PM
Post by: LAStrikesALot on March 18, 2009, 12:34:11 PM
What tournaments do you go to around here that get 120 boards?
Money bags had 80 entries and only sniffed at 60 boards. A good monthly event for 40B&B is 60 brackets. Whether $5-$8 is a steep amount for bracket cut i'll leave for another debate. But let's be honest, since some want to keep coming back to the "business" of things. $5*60 brackets is $300. Factor in supplies which include web hosting, domain names, computers, software, paper, copies, supplies, etc and then factor in the time we spend doing results, making new flyers, having discussions with whiny people about tournaments, brainstorming, updating web sites, maintaining databases and the list goes on. Trust me, its more profitable for me to go to my day job and work 1 of OT then is to run 1 event that takes up 5 hours of my day total between travel, check-in, bowling, payout and clean up.
That established, i think its clear that we do this for the bowlers, not for our pockets or our egos. And we just want to see the events succeed we want to see the bowlers happy. What I find I can't stomach is when someone complains about something, so we change it, and then they complain about the new implementation, even when/if that new implementation is their idea. There are people that whine for house shot, so we put it down, and then they complain the lefties ran away with it, or that "it didn't play like league." There are people that don't want the scores high, so we put down tournament pattern, and then they complain "that shot played to the boomers" or "man that shot was on the gutter, it wasn't fair."
No win! LOL
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Latise Parker
40 Boards & A Ball
www.40boards.com
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on March 18, 2009, 12:49:14 PM
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Baker...Why doesn't my ball h
k?40 Boards & A Ball - www.40boards.com
Is your Ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Stepp's Glen Burnie Pro Shop
Post by: CBass1724 on March 18, 2009, 12:53:48 PM
If I am not mistaken the Red Eye gets well over 120 brackets. It's also on a THS.
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C.J.
Edited on 3/18/2009 1:11 PM
Edited on 3/18/2009 2:23 PM
Post by: dogman666 on March 18, 2009, 12:55:33 PM
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on March 18, 2009, 01:30:06 PM
Why is it that NOVA bowlers cannot cross the bridge but many Maryland bowlers cross it without a thought?
Who knows about the Triangle 66 joke? You will only see those that bowl at Bowl America Chantinlly, Bowl America Manassas and Bowl America Bull Run if there is a tournament in one of those houses.
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Baker...Why doesn't my ball h
k?40 Boards & A Ball - www.40boards.com
Is your Ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Stepp's Glen Burnie Pro Shop
Post by: LAStrikesALot on March 18, 2009, 01:31:52 PM
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Latise Parker
40 Boards & A Ball
www.40boards.com
Post by: dogman666 on March 18, 2009, 02:01:02 PM
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on March 18, 2009, 02:16:34 PM
In case there are women/seniors reading this thread -- IF we had a strong turn out at a 40 Boards event, then a separate division would be possible. As it stands, the only women you see outside of Money Bags are Joy & Karla. As for the seniors, we usually see Brosius, Chetti, Jones and here and there we see J.R. and WW. This is what we had planned for day one but the support is not there to launch the plan.
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Baker...Why doesn't my ball h
k?40 Boards & A Ball - www.40boards.com
Is your Ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Stepp's Glen Burnie Pro Shop
Post by: Mike L on March 18, 2009, 02:37:02 PM
Latise,
I bowl in Hagerstown every month on a dead wall, 100+ singles and 40+ doubles brackets every month for over 2 years now. Walton 2 yrs ago use to get 120 every month too. Fact is, shots got more demanding, guys stopped coming and now he gets 40. Gaithersburg was always his biggest draw and its because they were easy. Its a sad fact but its true. Numbers don't lie!
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: walt8398 on March 18, 2009, 02:38:51 PM
"The Infamous Bridge" has been a problem since the 80s. For years, only Larry O'Neil would venture across the Woodrow Wilson for league or pot games. The TRIANGLE 66 cracked me up!
For years, we NCABA bowlers always wondered why their averages were so much higher until some of us ventured over there to bowl league...... It is then that we too learned how to wall up our lanes.....LMAO
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Tony Walton
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com
Post by: CBass1724 on March 18, 2009, 02:40:51 PM
quote:
Who knows about the Triangle 66 joke? You will only see those that bowl at Bowl America Chantinlly, Bowl America Manassas and Bowl America Bull Run if there is a tournament in one of those houses.
The tendency for those tournaments is to be run on a house shot. I think Jim Smith started to hurt the Manassas Holiday tournaments local following by making it on a sport shot sometimes.
I bowl at 2 of the 3 of those houses (out of convenience), plus Dranesville, and 99.99934% of the bowlers there are content bowling their 2-3 leagues a week and could careless whether anybody runs tournaments or not. Disposable income is just not there as much as it used to be...plus people like myself have different priorities on the weekends that does not involve receiving a beatdown on the lanes. Also, BA Chantilly just finally got out of it's rut in these past few months and are finally having honor scores shot again. Amazing what a Kegel machine will do for a center. That place has been "AMF Chantilly" for the past few years, LOL.
Oh and if some of you out there want to nitpick about people's accomplishments from this area, then don't forget to include Frank McCarthy on your list of PBA regional title holders.
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C.J.
Post by: walt8398 on March 18, 2009, 02:53:53 PM
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Tony Walton
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com
Post by: dogman666 on March 18, 2009, 02:56:59 PM
Edited on 3/18/2009 2:58 PM
Post by: CBass1724 on March 18, 2009, 02:59:23 PM
Ask the Guru, he would know...LOL.
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C.J.
Post by: wabullets on March 18, 2009, 03:19:00 PM
quote:
I did not know Frank had a regional title..... Where in the southern region did he win?
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Tony Walton
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com
Tony,
Frank got a big one for his 1st, Forest Hill last season.
Also to mention a few bowlers from VA that would cross the bridge for pots and or leagues back in the day...though lesser known, Graham Aylor, Todd Larson, Shannon Reasor come to mind
Post by: dogman666 on March 18, 2009, 03:25:21 PM
quote:
Graham Aylor, Todd Larson, Shannon Reasor
Damn the memories!
Post by: CBass1724 on March 18, 2009, 03:28:38 PM
quote:quote:
I did not know Frank had a regional title..... Where in the southern region did he win?
--------------------
Tony Walton
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com
Tony,
Frank got a big one for his 1st, Forest Hill last season.
Also to mention a few bowlers from VA that would cross the bridge for pots and or leagues back in the day...though lesser known, Graham Aylor, Todd Larson, Shannon Reasor come to mind
Thought he was asking about Frank McCarthy...since Forest Hill is the East Region...
If you are Tony, my sources tell me it was 1994 in Richmond where it was something like 15 of 16 southpaws in the finals. I think in 1995 he finished 2nd to John May in the same house...off Powhite pkwy...
Wiley hasn't won yet.
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C.J.
Edited on 3/18/2009 3:39 PM
Post by: wabullets on March 18, 2009, 03:38:43 PM
quote:quote:quote:
I did not know Frank had a regional title..... Where in the southern region did he win?
--------------------
Tony Walton
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com
Tony,
Frank got a big one for his 1st, Forest Hill last season.
Also to mention a few bowlers from VA that would cross the bridge for pots and or leagues back in the day...though lesser known, Graham Aylor, Todd Larson, Shannon Reasor come to mind
Thought he was asking about Frank McCarthy...since Forest Hill is the East Region...
If you are Tony, my sources tell me it was 1994 in Richmond where it was something like 15 of 16 southpaws in the finals. I think in 1995 he finished 2nd to John May in the same house...off Powhite pkwy...
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C.J.
He may have been.....I either over looked your quote or just had a hard time believing McCarthy has a title
Post by: walt8398 on March 18, 2009, 04:03:57 PM
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Tony Walton
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com
Edited on 3/18/2009 4:04 PM
Post by: LuckyLefty on March 18, 2009, 04:08:37 PM
This will ALWAYS be small money. Either the shot is too hard to get many bowlers out! OR The handicap is too low on an easy shot.....to give the bulk of the bowlers a chance to win. It will in that case be a donate to the 220+ bowler tourney. Small turnout! FOREVER!
Successful format....90% of 230....easy shot...everyone has a shot! FUN, lots of entrys....money! Yahoo!
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Krakken on March 22, 2009, 04:57:56 PM
quote:
If a bowler cant bowl on a sport pattern, they suck, flat out. And I mean what I say. Anyone complaining and b!tching b/c of the shot is not a true "gamer". Pretty simple really, be versatile, if you cant, dont bowl tournaments or for money.
That is precisely the attitude the drives house bowlers away from bowling in tourneys other than house shots.
With that attitude you will have 10 person tourneys in no time.
And for the record I would rather bowl on the sport/PBA tourneys
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes