Post by: wildbush300 on October 27, 2008, 12:44:02 AM
Just wanted to talk about this today, with yet another declining day on Wall Street.
Yes we all have regular attendees that participate in the tournaments but have we gotten down to just the core tourney bowlers who are committing funds to tournament play. That is about 25 bowlers per event and maybe another 10 who trickle in and out?
Are we heading into a recession where those access funds are just to precious to take a chance?
I dont know for sure, but I see a definite trend right now, what about you?
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Yvette
Tournament Director Triple Threat Tournaments
Triplethreat1560@aol.com
Post by: wildbush300 on October 27, 2008, 11:22:53 AM
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Yvette
Tournament Director Triple Threat Tournaments
Triplethreat1560@aol.com
Post by: MAJM on October 27, 2008, 11:25:48 AM
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Post by: Spider Ball Bowler on October 27, 2008, 11:40:20 AM
1) I moved and started college again, so I can't afford to be bowling
2) The lane conditions were super easy and the guys in the series are all stars that can score on anything. You had to average 233+ just to make the cut, then unless you shot about 800 the next 3 being in the bottom you weren't going anywhere anyways. It got frustrating, because they were all over Michigan, and the drive wasn't worth it.
Mostly because I'm not that good and don't feel like donating all the time...
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Ahhh Disco Biscuits!
Post by: Gazoo on October 28, 2008, 08:55:02 AM
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"I don't want to be remembered, I want to be forgotten"
Post by: los2003 on October 28, 2008, 09:15:38 AM
quote:
Could be a mixture of things. Here in Michigan we have a really big tournament series here. I stopped for a couple reasons.
1) I moved and started college again, so I can't afford to be bowling
2) The lane conditions were super easy and the guys in the series are all stars that can score on anything. You had to average 233+ just to make the cut, then unless you shot about 800 the next 3 being in the bottom you weren't going anywhere anyways. It got frustrating, because they were all over Michigan, and the drive wasn't worth it.
Mostly because I'm not that good and don't feel like donating all the time...
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Ahhh Disco Biscuits!
Post by: Mike L on October 28, 2008, 02:53:57 PM
I bowl in several different areas in VA, MD, and PA. In the northern virginia and baltimore area it seems that all the directors there are making the shots more competitive and trust me id much rather have to avg 210 and make money then 250, however most of the so called "donaters" as people call them, are not participating for that reason just as much as the economy. For example if a guy is paying twice as much for gas then he was, then he looks at ways to save, the first thing he says is well im not making money bowling. And lets say this guy is a 220 house bowler but particpates alot in tournaments with little success, because the director has put out a PBA pattern, how many times do you think that guy is going to keep coming out and bowling? However if the shot is close to what he bowls on and feels he can compete, he may still be bowling to try and make a few extra bucks to pay for that increase in gas and everything else. Several tournaments in that area are WAY down in entries and almost little side action anymore. And on top of that sometimes it takes rocket science to figure out some of the formats the directors are making for the tournaments.
Now in the Chambersburg area, they have a tournament every sunday at one of the houses in the 20-30 mile area there. Most are the same format, bowl 6 games cut to top 5 for stepladder. Entry fee is $30, payout ratio is 1:3 (which I think is way to high 1:6 should be the ratio). On top of gettting 40-60 people at every tournament, they get anywhere from 40-100 brackets and guess what THEY ARE DEAD WALLED! Like I said I hate bowling on that stuff but those for now are the places that I can make money at.
Now I know people are gonna complain that they don't wanna bowl on house shots, but heres the question, do you want 20 guys with 10 brackets with an $60-80 entry fee or 40-60 guys for a $30 entry with lots of side action? Because I know for a fact that the handful of guys that are still bowling every sunday like myself are going to bowl no matter what anyway, so in my opinion to get the local house guys and the over inflated average guys to participate, the directors are going to have to start making the shots easier. Guys like myself, Cavey, and the handful of others that always bowl are still going to bowl because its not a hobby to us, its a part time job and we will adapt to the environment.
Make it simple, cheap, and easy and entries will come!
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"Typical House Bowler"
Edited on 10/28/2008 4:01 PM
Post by: baer300 on October 29, 2008, 08:13:22 AM
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BRUNSWICK ADVISORY STAFF
VISE REGIONAL STAFF
Post by: wildbush300 on October 29, 2008, 10:13:56 AM
I will definitely take that into account. I dont know about a house shot and I usually do USBC patterns, but I definitely thought about that as well.
As for entry fee, lineage is up and unless you have a off peak time any real format costs. You cant have alot of games and a nice payout with a $50 entry. You just cant do it in these centers.
When I had my tournament on Sats and it was the house shot with variation due to the youth league bowling on it prior to my tournament... entries were pretty big. I guess in some ways you have to decide what your trying to create as a TD. My Mens and womens tournaments had 33 & 34 bowlers respectively but most who attended got in everything and therefore the pots & brackets were more than decent for the number of participants. The shot was competitive and so were the bowlers.
I guess we just have to decide who our intended audience is going to be and live with it. I prefer not to have a shootout when I am traveling or not and like to feel the people who win or cash have earned it and not just had the better matchup with ball aand Carry. However, I do agree that maybe some are down due to the patterns as well, especially since the economy is not thriving.
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Yvette
Tournament Director Triple Threat Tournaments
Triplethreat1560@aol.com
Post by: dpunky on October 29, 2008, 01:25:46 PM
Another reason that I don't enter some tournaments is that my center never advertises them. They may hide the tournament flyer, or never even put it out. Plus know one in my league even enters tournaments. If it wasn't for this website, I would have no clue if a tournament was hapenning in my area.
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Ken - aka "dpunky" - Certified USBC Level I Coach
Edited on 10/29/2008 1:26 PM
Post by: SKIDSNAP on October 29, 2008, 01:31:01 PM
Post by: Mike L on October 29, 2008, 02:15:21 PM
I just bowled the hagerstown doubles tourney this week on a dead wall, 40 teams, 86 single brackets, 30 team brackets. Now next month for some reason the guy is going to put down a kegel pattern instead of his house shot, should be real interesting to see how many of their regulars participate.
All im saying is from my point in bowling the last 6 years or so in many different environments and tournaments, it seems to me that the people that are getting the entries are the ones that have these cheap easy tournaments.
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: Current Exempt on October 29, 2008, 03:28:05 PM
Why don't you try something that gives back to the prize fund to attract bowlers? Maybe something like $2.50 per bracket gets put back into the prize fund if there are lower than 50 entries. I believe $5 is the noraml take now. Putting up $65 and 5th paying $75 on 40 entries is just rediculous. I know the money can only be spread so much around but it's a bad investment to bowl tournaments these days. The lane conditions do need to be easier to attract entries so the previous post's are correct on that. As long as you can get the bowlers there a few times with good ideas just maybe they might keep coming back.
You have to spend money to make money.
Just a thought.
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on October 29, 2008, 03:30:29 PM
• 3-4 $175-220 balls
• 1 $140 bag
• 1 $120 pair of shoes
• $30-200 tournaments
You do the math! Who wants to spend that kind of dough to shoot 160, 170, 180 games every time they bowl a tournament. We all have egos and we want to stroke them with big scores so that when we are standing around the cooler we can brag about what we bowled. The core group of tournament bowlers keep screaming “MAKE ‘EM TOUGH!†but in the process the occasional tournament bowlers are lost. If you are the cream of the crop, you will find your way to the top regardless of the scoring pace. Some of the very people crying the scores are to high use to roll a lot of high scores too.
So now you are asking, where is the middle of the road scoring pattern? GOOD LUCK! Luck is just what 40 Boards experienced at Opposites Attract this past June when we shortened the house shot a little. The shot allowed folks to wear the pocket out but the scoring pace was reasonable as it took a team average of 413.4 to make the first cut and 428.8 after 14 games to cash. Year one of the doubles tournament, we had something way to hard down and finding a happy bowler was almost impossible to find. When I say hard, there were 72 bowlers and maybe 13 (18% of the field) averaged 200 and the field was talented with some solid amateur talent including: Fero Williams, George Gohagan and now exempt PBA members Edward VanDaniker, Joy Esterson Trisha Reid & Jen Petrick. The field looked a lot happier this year until the air conditioning died. People ask me all of the time, what about the happy median. If putting out something in the middle was so easy, we’d all do it at our tournaments now. The left-right issue is here to stay just like the 500 RPM people against the 250rpm people is here to stay.
I’ll be the first to say, the PBAx patterns are turning into something impossible to duplicate. One time you need a sanded ball to play the Cheetah and the next time you need a white dot at the same center. Did any of you go to VMSBT’s September event? The Scorpion was down – man were people crying the blues when they could not keep up with the scoring pace. The only thing I heard during and after the event was how VMSBT messed up. Did VMSBT lay the pattern down or did the center lay the pattern down? And then people were bumping their gums to those that would listen about how high scoring it was. Peep last December’s stop at the very same Country Club when Rhino Page set the PTQ scoring mark. That surface just matches to the pattern for some reason. There was a tournament in Virginia that went to the Chameleon for their weekly tournament after varying the patterns previously. Man, the middle of the lane was like carpet and the lefties were playing somewhere left of 8 and even scuffing their balls. Of course it held up since there were like 5 in the field of 30. Guess which bowlers benefited from this the most? LOL Some of us are starting to learn that when the house shot is down, it can be unpredictable too as centers aren’t oiling or just running their morning shot on what’s left from the previous day.
Some are speculating that a lower entry fee will bring entries. I’ve heard $500 up top is not worth coming. I’ll do the math this time winning $500 at a tournament that take 3 hours is like having a full-time career paying you $346K a year. Each of us has to decide why we are there. There are bowlers who bowl because they want to improve and realize they need to bowl against stronger bowlers, then there are those bowling for the competition (at least that’s what I hear from the PBA regional supporters) and then of course there are those there for the hustle aka the money.
If you want to know how to bring the entries, take a look at the tournaments that have a lot of entries. To start, they are annual events so they feel special. Oh yeah, the field can strike too. Or there is a big top prize whether based on entries or guaranteed and we all believe we can win!
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Baker...Why doesn't my ball h
k?40 Boards & A Ball Tournament Director
www.40boards.com
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Glen Burnie Pro Shop
"The left sucks & the right is wide open!" R.I.P. Brizmo 6/15/08
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on October 29, 2008, 03:40:09 PM
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Baker...Why doesn't my ball h
k?40 Boards & A Ball Tournament Director
www.40boards.com
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Glen Burnie Pro Shop
"The left sucks & the right is wide open!" R.I.P. Brizmo 6/15/08
Post by: wildbush300 on October 29, 2008, 04:41:02 PM
The bowlers are getting something.. A fair shot, Integrity in the Finances of the tournament and competition.
Not all tournaments are out there to make money off the bowlers... quite a few... vmsbt, 40 boards as well as Triple threat are having tournaments to bring the Venue to this md,dc,va,de area. We are not making mortgage payments off of tourneys. Most of these people are our friends and associates and we donot take advantage but appreciate their support of our tournaments.
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Yvette
Tournament Director Triple Threat Tournaments
Triplethreat1560@aol.com
Post by: Mike L on October 29, 2008, 07:23:11 PM
And those "core" group that bowl every week, will still continue to bowl, because like Jeff said those guys will find a way to be competitive. Most bowlers are not talented enough to find something each and every Sunday. Yeah guys will complain about the scoring pace, but guess what MOST of them will still be back, because most of them feel they can compete when its an easier pattern. Of course we all have a certain style we love to see at every event that matches up to us, but the bottom line is, id rather have 50-60 guys and 60-80 brackets on a dead wall and 30 guys in them than 20-30 with 20-30 brackets and only 10-12 different guys in them.
The problem with the PBA patterns are certain guys know where to play on the lane and how the lanes should be played, but most don't and it seems the biggest thing on those patterns is who your crossing with, otherwise it can be a real long day. I tried telling Jim Smith this about 6 months ago and now it seems his tournaments have gone to almost nothing. I mean 7 guys for 2 squads at the quick and cheap and 44 total entries for a 3 day tournament that was advertised $5000 on 200 entries wouldn't get the house guys to bowl. Entry fee was too high and he advertised the Chameleon pattern, so there was no chance the locals that avg 220-230 were gonna bowl.
Im not saying all tournaments should be $30 either, because thats too cheap and theres not much money made in the tournament, however with that cheap entry fee, it allows bowlers to get in brackets that wouldn't do it when entry fees are $80-$100 and thats why they get that many brackets and most of us know in order to actually make some money bowling, you make it in the side action.
Here's the money breakdown on Lincoln Lanes tournaments
Entry fee will be $30.00 -- $6.00 bowling fee, $23.00 prize fee, $1.00 expense fee.
Now I know you guys in the city can't get lineage for $1 a game, but wouldn't the centers rather have 60 guys making $360 than 20 guys making $360. I mean how much more do you think they would make in the snack bar area and beer sales? I know its not the directors fault at all and im not blaming them, im just stating some things that I feel is the cause for a decline in entries.
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on October 30, 2008, 07:49:22 AM
Every great turnout is driven by the area "league legends" coming out to play.
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Baker...Why doesn't my ball h
k?40 Boards & A Ball Tournament Director
www.40boards.com
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Glen Burnie Pro Shop
"The left sucks & the right is wide open!" R.I.P. Brizmo 6/15/08
Post by: Krakken on October 30, 2008, 09:08:17 AM
I don't go to tourneys because of the cost and the fact that I have entered about 15 or so toruenys over the past 2-3 seasons and not cashed once. Most of it is because I don't bowl well enough to win, some of it was bad luck. I don't want to drop $80 on an entry, another $40-$50 on brackets and pots and walk away emptyhanded.
It is too expensive of a "learning experience" for me. I did it for a while figuring I would imporve and cash here and there making the money a wash overall, but it just hasn't happened.
I would be more likely to come out and bowl more on a pattern that was higher scoring, but not a carry contest, but it would have to be reasonably priced as well. Maybe $50 for a 5 game tourney. 8 games is a lot to bowl in a row.
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Speed Kills
When in doubt, move out
Edited on 10/30/2008 9:10 AM
Post by: Mike L on October 30, 2008, 09:54:39 AM
Krakken seems to be exactly the type of guy im talking about. Averages 215-220 and wants to compete but is not going to keep putting up $100-$150 every sunday and getting nothing in return. The only thing about your post is its hard to find that happy medium pattern that makes them somewhat easy but not rediculous and thats because when they seem somewhat easy to most of the house guys, your true tournament bowlers are gonna run them over. It seems to me that on house patterns and easier shots that every bowler has a chance to win and in order to get local support in these tournaments, I think thats what has to happen. 80% of the field needs to feel competitive, not 20%.
Once again just my opinions!
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: wabullets on October 30, 2008, 11:02:17 AM
If you go back 15 years, The Masters routinely had 100-140 entries, sometimes more. Tournaments today are thrilled if the get to just 40. (OK, so maybe not thrilled but it is a number they will take as it seems to be a high point these days). Those times, while not as bad as current, were not great economic times. Just off the 1st Iraq war, mortagage interest rates were in the neighborhood of 8%-10% (most people now are in the 5.5-6 range,which is a huge difference), so you were paying a lot more for your home thus more household expenses. BUT, you still had big entries in most tournaments. The biggest difference of 1993 vs. 2008 in scratch bowling is brackets. They were in the infancy back then....now they are a full blown cancer. They have (IMO) robbed the game of the "donator" or "marginal" player. Brackets are GREAT for those %20 and TERRIBLE for those %80 and those %80 do not have the discipline to stay away from them which has caused that 80% to become %8.
Ok, so we dont have as many bowlers as 15 years ago either.....though we do have more people today that "think" they are bowlers than 15 years ago.
Edited on 10/30/2008 11:05 AM
Edited on 10/30/2008 11:07 AM
Post by: I_Bowl4Money on October 30, 2008, 11:05:34 AM
I think the issue is that alot of guys do not have bowling as a PRIORITY. I'm married and a father of a 5 year old. I just bought a house in June. It's never been a money thing, but a FAMILY TIME - NEW HOME TIME thing.
I've got 3-4 guys that would travel with me to all these tournaments, but the problem becomes us having to take care of our Family matters first. All my guys are in the same boat as me so we try to schedule these things well in advance.
I had grand plans on bowling both Walton and Baker's tournament, but instead, I spent the past couple weekends helping my father fix up his house.
I truly ENVY you guys that can bowl a majority of the time. Trust me, i would lace them up every weekend if I didn't have so many family obligations. I'm hoping it will change soon but until then, I'll be one of those drop-in kinda guys until bowling is higher on my PRIORITY LIST.
Hopefully I'll make it to RT's on Saturday
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Stephen Hahn
Post by: Mike L on October 30, 2008, 11:10:45 AM
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: Mike L on October 30, 2008, 11:11:56 AM
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on October 30, 2008, 11:38:04 AM
As someone who runs tournaments, there aren't a ton of folks playing brackets as some think. There are like 3-5 guys that say all and the rest of the people play a number between 0-5. We have regulars who play only the pot, or only the survivals. There are a lot of people playing within their limits.
Hahn, VMSBT & 40 Boards will forgive you. LOL
--------------------
Baker...Why doesn't my ball h
k?40 Boards & A Ball Tournament Director
www.40boards.com
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Glen Burnie Pro Shop
"The left sucks & the right is wide open!" R.I.P. Brizmo 6/15/08
Post by: walt8398 on October 30, 2008, 11:42:06 AM
As a fellow tournament director and frequent participator in tournaments local and abroad, I can understand everyone's point of view. You will never find that happy median for a scoring pace or the lefty/righty issue. I don't mind a house shot occasionally at a tournament but bowling on it all the time is dumb.
Mike L - I hear ya. But our area is unfortunately stuck with these chain bowling centers who force us to have $70 entry fees and higher to make the prize fund half way decent. An earlier poster suggested that the tournaments put $2.50 per bracket back into the prize fund. That is asking a bit much. Personally, the first 3 years of VMSBT I was in the RED from putting money back into the tournaments to make the prize funds good. When VMSBT runs the regular format (5 games of qualifying followed by 4 games of match-play) the match-play lineage is PAID BY VMSBT. So, the $5 expense fee that I charge, most of it is eaten up by the finals lineage. Nothing is more valuable than your time and you should get something for it. Like Yvette said before, we aren't "paying our mortgages" by running these events. We do it for the love of the game and to promote tournament bowling. Toner cartridges, paper, clipboards, pens and other expenses that we incur putting on an organized event isn't free. Then to deal with some of the bowler's complaints about the patterns can be frustrating. I get no joy from blocking out either side of the lane. My goal is to make them as fair as possible ALL THE TIME. Tough to do when you are dealing with centers who won't work with you on trying to create a fair and equitable scoring environment.
I wish everyone who complained about a tournament could run some and then get back to me about their experience.
--------------------
Tony Walton
Columbia 300 Regional/Amateur Staff Member
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com
Edited on 10/30/2008 12:24 PM
Post by: wabullets on October 30, 2008, 12:00:23 PM
You are right, no one forces that player to play but the mind tells him to play. The mind tells him he is that player. The mind tells he can make a lot of money quickly. After the tournament is over, the pocket/wallet says "man, see you in 4 months" instead of saying see you in a few weeks because the pocket now has no more money.
Lets compare the 2 eras....1993 vs 2008. Both had well branded organizations( Masters, Tournament Concepts)(VMSBT, 40 Boards), Both had walled/soft conditions, both had resin balls....the 2 things most people like 2 blame for todays lack of tournment action..and true, those things can build up (actually tear down a game) over that time to help contribute....but I still think the biggest diffence in that span is brackets. The sharks (%20 group) are hungrier than ever. They %80 group is unsure as ever even possibly intimidated by the scene and action and the hunger of the %20. And again, the bracket thing is just an opinion. I personally like them. I make my share at them and I dont want them to go away, but as one scratch bowlers view of where the donator/marginal player went....I think that has as much to do with it as anything....along with what Stephen said, everyday life gets put ahead of extracircular activities more these days than years past.
Post by: Mike L on October 30, 2008, 12:40:18 PM
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: Current Exempt on October 30, 2008, 12:50:17 PM
wildbush300.....you never answered my question about putting $2.50 from each bracket back into the prize fund. Who says you have to take $5?
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on October 30, 2008, 02:11:58 PM
It’s funny you basically said, “Yall need to give us your money to make the tournament better!†There are expenses involved from gas as you ride around to promote the tournament, (in our case) website/domain, toner, paper and even the program we use to run the tournament. Oh yeah, the most valuable thing of all, our time! We have not hosted a tournament yet where we have not shared with our bowlers.
40 Boards has been “investing†in our tournaments from day one. Since we don’t have an expense line at our monthly events, we use the bracket money to keep from spending our personal money on the expenses listed above. We also use that money 9 out of 10 times to help the prize fund, just like VMSBT director Tony Walton said they do. Triple Threat “gives back†to the tournament the same way. What these other tournaments do that you bowl, I have no clue. I stopped traveling south as I realized the guy was giving us the “hook†in our backside and taking his cut. Bowlers need to hold tournament organizations accountable and the other group you want to hold under the light is USBC. USBC allows a tournament to list the lineage and expenses on one line called expenses and this keeps the bowler from being able to compute exactly what the tournament paid the center in lineage. You will notice at the tournaments we run, it clearly spells out the lineage & prize money. If you want to crunch the numbers behind us, you can verify that we did not run off with your money. You cannot do that when a tournament combines the two, all you can do is speculate.
We have been “giving back†the whole time, do you want us to give you our personal money too?
--------------------
Baker...Why doesn't my ball h
k?40 Boards & A Ball Tournament Director
www.40boards.com
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Glen Burnie Pro Shop
"The left sucks & the right is wide open!" R.I.P. Brizmo 6/15/08
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on October 30, 2008, 02:18:31 PM
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Baker...Why doesn't my ball h
k?40 Boards & A Ball Tournament Director
www.40boards.com
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Glen Burnie Pro Shop
"The left sucks & the right is wide open!" R.I.P. Brizmo 6/15/08
Post by: Mike L on October 30, 2008, 02:26:03 PM
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: Krakken on October 30, 2008, 07:24:34 PM
If the entries were lower I would be more inclined to bowl and enter some side action. I just don't want to go out and drop $100-$150 to bowl a tourney more than once a year, unless I think I have a good chance to cash.
And believe me I understand why the guys running the tourneys have to charge what they do charge. They do a great job, I have bowled in Tony's VMSBT and Jeff's 40boards and they are very well run and fair.
I know Tony puts more into the prize fund than you would think to attract his bowlers (Same thing in the TSLG league in the summer) I just have a ton of other options to do with $150. Golf (2 rounds), take my wife to a nice dinner. Things liek that.
People have less disposable income and more ways to spend it.
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Speed Kills
When in doubt, move out
Post by: Current Exempt on October 31, 2008, 09:59:40 AM
Bowling had the resin boom and every score has been shot by most, there is nothing left to attract someone back into tournaments. It's all been done.
Post by: GOLF IS BETTER on November 01, 2008, 11:42:02 AM
$70 Entry Fee
$50 Prize Fund
$15 to lineage ($3 per game, hopefully this can cover the 8 games in step ladder and who knows, some tournaments you may get lineage for $2-$2.50)
$5 Expense Fee to the Tournament Director
5 games and cutting straight to step ladder will cut down on all of the match play lineage.
5 games will allow for a minimum of 3 sets of brackets Games (1-3) (2-4) (3-5) and possibly more if you want to do 16 man (4 game) brackets. For the 3 game, 8 person brackets you should charge $6 ($30-1st place, $10-2nd place) $5 goes to the Tournament Director and $3 goes into the Prize Fund.
Same thing for $11 brackets: ($60-1st place, $20-2nd place) $5 goes to the Tournament Director and $3 goes back into the Prize Fund.
I doubt any of the bracket bowlers will cry that their bracket money is going into a prize fund that may contain bowlers who didn’t enter brackets because normally the person running brackets keeps all $5 or $8 depending if they are $5 or $6 brackets. Plus, if you’re doing well in brackets, you probably have a good chance of making step ladder as well.
Paying 1 in 4 will help some of the “donators†grab a check every now and then.
I know Jim Smith tries in the NOVA area but quite frankly, his gimmick formats are eating up the prize funds with so many extra games of lineage and the formats are not necessarily producing the best bowler that day either (but that’s another topic for another day)
Let’s face it people, the Tournament Directors are trying but the interest just isn’t there. The way I see it, try something new in this struggling economy.
Jeff/Tony or anyone else who wants to run a tournament, you can advertise as you are giving back but you really aren’t. The money going back into the prize funds is money you aren’t taking right now anyway. I know it isn’t that much money going back in but it looks good as a way to promote these tournaments.
Time to keep things simple, formats simple. Formats like the one listed doesn’t last all day either.
60 entries would mean $3,000 to the prize fund and let’s say roughly 50 brackets for each set, so 150 total. That’s another $450 to the prize fund for brackets and $750 for the Tournament Director running brackets. $3,450 total to pay 15 spots.
1. $1,000
2. $600
3. $350
4. $250
5. $200
6. $180
7. $150
8. $125
9. $110
10. $100
11. $90
12. $80
13. $75
14. $70
15. $70
Who knows, entries could grow, you could change the pay out to 1 in 5 and almost feel like you could guarantee $1,000 for 1st with extra bracket money going into the prize funds.
Try something different but keep it simple!
Edited on 11/1/2008 11:43 AM
Edited on 11/1/2008 11:44 AM
Post by: Mike L on November 01, 2008, 01:28:10 PM
Tony/jeff, your thoughts?
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: walt8398 on November 04, 2008, 08:46:32 AM
I have given this topic some thought and I'm going to make some changes to VMSBT. Concept wise I personally don't agree with what is going on with bowling but I'm going to try and give the people what they want.
Next year, VMSBT is going to try and help the "marginal/part time" tournament bowler. The discussion here has been very helpful.
Stay tuned..... http://www.vmsbt.com
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Tony Walton
Columbia 300 Regional/Amateur Staff Member
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com
Edited on 11/4/2008 9:48 AM
Post by: GOLF IS BETTER on November 04, 2008, 09:49:41 AM
Just curious, what percentage of my above post do you agree with?
G.I.B
Post by: walt8398 on November 04, 2008, 10:11:36 AM
When I first started VMSBT, my cash ratio was 1:4 with an $85 entry fee. Things went well but I felt that the low to cash money could be better. I went to a 1:5 cash ratio about 3 years ago and I have been able to pay double the entry fee back in the last cash spot.
Still trying to work out more of the details
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Tony Walton
Columbia 300 Regional/Amateur Staff Member
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 04, 2008, 11:06:37 AM
I am not sure what that quote is implying and I am not going to shoot your ideas down and say they are not possible but it’s easy to say what someone else should do to be successful. It’s kind of like a person who cannot hook the ball telling a person to hook the ball to just throw it straight or vice versa.
To start, in your formula, you have a $5 expense line which 40 Boards DOES NOT CHARGE at the monthly tournaments now. We are charging a $60 entry versus the $70 you suggested. We don’t do the stepladder but everyone gets to bowl 6 games and not 5 to have a chance to win/cash. The truth of the matter is that local tournaments are not drawing 60 entries right now. 50 brackets a set is not happening and charging folks $6 vs. $5 was what was going on in the ‘90’s and folks were complaining. We ran 3 sets last year and we cut back to 2 sets this year because some bowlers felt like it was overwhelming. The “all†guys don’t care but the average player is playing 0-5 per set, max! It does sound better to win $30 in brackets but winning $10 for second now means you aren’t recouping 2 brackets with every second place finish.
In theory, the prize fund you posted looks good but it’s the “same thing†we see at most tournaments. Spend $70 to cash for $70, that has angered many bowlers too over the years. I do like your thinking for my wallet as a director, $5 of every entry in my pocket plus the bracket action. WHEW HOO! Latise and I have left tournaments with $30 after taking care of the bowlers, so please don’t say we have not given back. I definitely like your idea as it will guarantee the tournament some take home money at each event.
GIB, I am not going to say any tournaments name but I am going to give you some perspective. The tournaments that seem to draw well, they have huge expense lines or they don’t even advertise how the entry fee is broken down. They have cult like followings and because of this following, the gambling has grown 10 fold over the years. Notice what has grown or maintained these tournaments, the excessive gambling and we think the economy is retarding entries. People are dropping greenbacks like the end is here to try and win some of that money.
One of the things hurting entries now is the lack of a youth movement. At one time, all of us 30+ year old guys were the new blood at tournaments and right now, the same 30+ crowd is holding it down as the youth/veteran bowlers now. The next wave of talent in their 20’s has not come out and probably won’t. There are guys/gals dropping $200 or $275 at a PBA regional that you can count on 1 finger how many times they have bowled a local event. Isn’t funny how people can bowl 3-5 leagues and say they cannot afford a tournament? They are telling the truth, because league alone is costing them $200 a week if they don’t win any money.
Edited on 11/4/2008 12:08 PM
Post by: Mike L on November 04, 2008, 12:16:12 PM
I think that quote was based on the idea of charging $6 for the brackets and "giving back" $3. In reality you would still be making the same, but you'd be giving back something to the prize fund with really giving it back. Trust me I know you guys hardly make anything as it is and like I said theres no chance id put up with the headaches. I guess ive just seen 2 different areas (balt & nova vs. chambersburg area) and in my opinion, the cheap and easy thing seems to work out for most, however you can't make alot of money in just the tournament, but hey niether do the regional guys that will cash to break even, but thats a whole other issue thats been discussed before.
I do love the fact that in your tournaments last check does double your entry, only bad thing is Saturdays make it tough for me to get to. I am going to try and make Annadale, depending on business at the center.
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: Mike L on November 04, 2008, 12:20:08 PM
I agree that some changes need to be made for the tournament scene just to get back to 40 entries. I mean when I first started bowling your stuff 3-4 yrs ago, I would get in 80 brackets, first was $800 or higher, now you can't get 30 guys or 30 brackets and first is $500-$600. I know there are many different reasons for people not bowling, but bowlers for the most part think breaking even is a good day, so when these guys bowl in the pa area, spend $30, cash for $30 they are ok with that, me personally itd be a waste of time lol. Just some of my opinions. Like I said I tried telling Jim Smith about his patterns about 6 months ago and he didn't seem to listen and it seems every tournament has a gimmick to it now, so no wonder people aren't bowling. Who knows, hopefully it'll get better!
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: Current Exempt on November 04, 2008, 01:24:22 PM
I just don't see any gimmick,format or even dollar figure that will draw bowlers back again. Are there youth bowlers out there anymore looking to turn adult like we were years ago? I don't think so. But, Frankie pretty much nailed it, just re read his post and it explains A LOT of today's bowlers.
Post by: walt8398 on November 04, 2008, 01:52:25 PM
I like the fact that with a 1:5 ratio, last cash spot has been $150-$160 ($80 entry fee).
Frankie Abralon - Egos are huge. Bowling is forever ruined. We have USBC to blame for that. I knew when they allowed "short oil", allowed centers to basically wall their lanes without consequence and then couple that with the ball technology... Bowling started becoming a joke.
Not sure what to do and I'm running out of ideas and patience with the whole Tournament Director scene. Like MSB alluded to in his post. People will flock to a "certain tournament" 10, 20 deep from DC/BALT and know for a FACT these individuals running the event is taking money out of the prize fund. Yet they won't support a local event that has been paying out 100% or more since day ONE. I ran a $3,000 1st place GUARANTEED event in August that drew 139 bowlers. I may have had 40 locals in the event. THAT IS A JOKE. Promoted the event for 6 months, so people had plenty of time to get funds and or schedule together. Find it hard to believe people can't set aside $25/month for entry. I know some people who spend more than that PER WEEK on cigarettes, lottery and Keno.
Tournament bowling should be about testing your skills against competition that is on the same level as you or better. Somehow, people have lost that concept. Nobody comes out of the womb a contender. Champions are MADE not BORN (the cliche' police are now coming to get me!
)--------------------
Tony Walton
Columbia 300 Regional/Amateur Staff Member
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com
Edited on 11/4/2008 2:54 PM
Edited on 11/4/2008 2:55 PM
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 04, 2008, 02:00:19 PM
I am not slapping anyone with a hero badge for quitting...quitting is for losers!
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Baker...Why doesn't my ball h
k?40 Boards & A Ball Tournament Director
www.40boards.com
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Glen Burnie Pro Shop
"The left sucks & the right is wide open!" R.I.P. Brizmo 6/15/08
Post by: Mike L on November 04, 2008, 02:09:12 PM
Quote
We are all good on something and we all suck on something else.
Unless you're me I suck on every pattern
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"Typical House Bowler"
Edited on 11/4/2008 3:09 PM
Post by: Current Exempt on November 04, 2008, 02:13:00 PM
The ones who have quit all together are at least even from a financial standpoint when it comes to bowling. 90% of the guys chasing tournaments for the last 5 years are down. You can't knock them for seeing the writing on the wall before us.
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 04, 2008, 02:32:40 PM
Post by: DP3 on November 04, 2008, 02:34:33 PM
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-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop. AMF Bowie Lanes -- Bowie, MD
Post by: scott5651 on November 04, 2008, 10:38:54 PM
Post by: GOLF IS BETTER on November 05, 2008, 05:35:04 AM
Please do not take my response as a way of me saying tournament directors need to give back. I think tournament directors should take more. I was just giving suggestions on ways for tournament directors to run more tournaments, make more money for themselves, draw more entries and have decent prize funds for the bowlers. Ideas such as having less lineage with simple formats. But formats that will allow more side action.
I think you need to stop worrying what the final cash spot is going to pay. If you are going to a tournament in hopes of doubling your money for finishing in 15th place then you shouldn’t be bowling. I think paying 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 with side action is the preferred method for the serious bowlers.
WABullets.
You’re crazy, brackets are the best thing that ever happened to bowling! Yes, there are less entries these days but imagine how fewer entries there would be without any brackets.
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 05, 2008, 08:28:35 AM
DJ - I know what you mean about the atmosphere when you compare it to "team bowling" and the feel. It's the same reason you here the guys older then you still talking about the good ole days when we bowled Team Challenge.
Now the people who ran WTC knew how to make money running a tournament!!! TNBA does a pretty good job at it too!!!
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Baker...Why doesn't my ball h
k?40 Boards & A Ball Tournament Director
www.40boards.com
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Glen Burnie Pro Shop
"The left sucks & the right is wide open!" R.I.P. Brizmo 6/15/08
Post by: GOLF IS BETTER on November 07, 2008, 01:49:13 PM
Just not sure where to go from here.
Back then, everyone was happy but bowling ball technology and lane conditions weren't much of an issue
Post by: wabullets on November 10, 2008, 08:06:10 AM
quote:
Now the people who ran WTC knew how to make money running a tournament!!! TNBA does a pretty good job at it too!!!
both of those entities have/had created an incredible "brand" and the people flock to that brand loyally/religously from all over. How the create(d) that "brand", I dont know but sure wish the could share the secret. TNBA never seem to be short of participants at their events, handicap or scratch.