Post by: Mr Straight Ball on October 10, 2007, 03:55:41 AM
So why aren't more high average bowlers out competing against one another?
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STAY
FF MY BL
CK!...Mr. Straight Ball prays his ball will hook one day!
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Post by: Phoneman on October 10, 2007, 12:05:50 PM
Post by: nutsforbowling on October 10, 2007, 12:49:47 PM
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The 10 pin is the enemy!!!!!!!!!!!!
Post by: dpunky on October 10, 2007, 01:10:39 PM
Most bowlers just bowl competitive leagues during the week and have their weekends free.
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Ken - aka "dpunky" - Certified USBC Level I Coach
"Now rolling Hammer and Storm"
Too Cool for School
Post by: dogman666 on October 10, 2007, 01:30:54 PM
Post by: dogman666 on October 10, 2007, 01:34:11 PM
Post by: CHILLX on October 10, 2007, 02:09:21 PM
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Clarke Hill
King Pin Pro Shop
3rd Annual King Pin Scratch Tournament $5,000.00 1st place
January 12 & 13 , 2008
Post by: dogman666 on October 10, 2007, 02:14:50 PM
Post by: TripFour on October 10, 2007, 02:19:07 PM
quote:
I bowl at Burke and we used to have back to back Commercial leagues on Thursday night 20 years ago that filled the house with at least 20 teams. Now we have one with 8 teams. The traffic is also an issue especially if you have it anywhere near the Redskins stadium. Also the Wilson Bridge poses a problem. Essentially we have a huge area but the Potomac river keeps everyone on each others respective side. What we ought to do is just do some pot games if we get enough interest.
Yeah, it's a sad sight at Burke now. The good old days of a good commercial league have been gone for 10 years or more. It's a shame too, because the conditions the past two seasons are much better than they have been in years.
That said, I kinda feel like more scratch bowlers would be interested in tournaments if the conditions were somewhere between a "wall" and a sport shot. I think the problem a lot of people run into is the conditions are sometimes geared more toward one type of player. I find those shots challenging, but many people won't bowl, because they don't feel they have a chance to at least cash.
Edited on 10/11/2007 8:34 AM
Post by: CHILLX on October 10, 2007, 03:08:25 PM
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Clarke Hill
King Pin Pro Shop
3rd Annual King Pin Scratch Tournament $5,000.00 1st place
January 12 & 13 , 2008
Post by: I_Bowl4Money on October 11, 2007, 08:32:41 AM
I understand why you are feeling a bit boggled over the participation of scratch bowlers in the area. There are a few factors that I've seen over the past 15 years of running tournaments that has contributed to the decline in participation.
One huge factor I see now is that none of the tournaments are offering any prize money and the prize ratios are mostly 1:6 and sometimes 1:5 if you're lucky.
Nothing is GUARANTEED anymore, everything is B.O.E. and that is NOT a GUARANTEE! I'm not sure if you were a part of the Nation's Capital Masters Tournament Club, but when we ran that event we averaged 80+ bowlers and several times maxed out at 120. Part of that was because we had a prize ratio of 1:4 and we GUARANTEED anywhere from $1200 to $1500 for 1st along with 2nd and 3rd being GUARANTEED as well.
So I ask you this question...would you rather pay $60 or $80 to bowl for $500 or $800 based on 30 Entries? Or would you like to pay $75-$85 and bowl for $1500, $750, $400 GUARANTEED PRIZE with 1:4 Prize Ratio?
I'm hoping I can make it out to Tony's this weekend and yours in a couple of weeks. Don't get frustrated, sometimes it gets like this, but you're doing a great job just stay positive.
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Stephen Hahn
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on October 11, 2007, 12:09:27 PM
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I saw a response that touched on the what seems the real concern. I don' want to take a chance. Life is about taking chances, how do you know you cannot beat the next bowler until you try.
For those who say there aren't any tournaments, there are 3 or more tournaments every month to bowl. And no we cannot make 'em all but here are some good examples...
Superior Mixed Doubles (Cleveland, OH) - 25% or more of the field is from MD/VA/DC
Bacardi Classic (Cleveland. OH) - Plenty of local bowlers are there in Feb that have some reason they can never make a tournament at home
Rhodman - I cannot tell you how many people I see there bowling their one tournament a year against seasoned bowlers.
York - Last week, 27 entries and maybe 7-10 people tops were not GBBA or NCABA members.
Our area bowlers travel here and there but when it's down the street it's like we are afraid to let someone see us bowl bad. I am glad to see some area bowlers chimed in as it gave some input as to why quote on scratch bowlers aren't bowling outside of their house.
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STAY
FF MY BLCK!...Mr. Straight Ball prays his ball will hook one day!
40 Boards & A Ball
Is your ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
http://WWW.40BOARDS.COM
Post by: CHILLX on October 11, 2007, 02:57:26 PM
paying $450.00 its a great turn around on your money. And I forgot you get to drink beer thats a plus........
Later, see ya ball reviewers in January......
--------------------
Clarke Hill
King Pin Pro Shop
3rd Annual King Pin Scratch Tournament $5,000.00 1st place
January 12 & 13 , 2008
Post by: wabullets on October 11, 2007, 03:13:46 PM
It is a double edge sword. You are right, local bowlers NEED to support the local tournament scene on the other hand, folks that run it need to give them a reason to support the tournament. Just because someone is taking they are taking time to run a tournament doesnt mean it is worthy of support. I know I can be called part of the problem because I do not support the local tournament scene much anymore. I have an easier time finding a reason to drive 4-5 hours to Long Island, NY or Bradford, PA or Waverly, NY or Catskill, NY to compete in the Eastern Region than I do a local tournament. Some of the reasons..
1. Gurantees. Which were mentioned in someone elses post. I know I am bowling for atleast 12.5 times my entry for 1st. $400 guaranteed for cashing 33% of the field. When you cash or even when you win, you have a sense of achievment and pride that you did something good. By and large you competed against some of the best the east coast has to offer which often includes at least 5 expempt players or more.
2. Conditions. There are no surprises. You know what you are getting generally a fair and competitive shot whether you are right or left handed. Lanes are done by a "professional" lanesman with a machine that is kept up to spec. Local tourney you will either get a house shot or if they try to put something down, lord knows what you will end up with most the time.
3. Operation of the tournment. A 12pm start is a 12pm start not a 12:20 start because someone is lost or stuck in traffic. It is better to make 1 bowler mad than the 40 who did show up on time.
4. Start times. In the VMSBT case, my opinion, Noon is a terrible start time. This tournament should be starting at 10am.
5. Promotion of the tournament. Some tournaments get higher number of bowlers. Why? Why does the girl who runs the tournament at Greenway in August get more entries, double or even triple the entries of other tournaments? Better promotion? More popular? All the bowlers are friends and family? What is she doing better?
6. If tournaments are going to have websites, they should be updated in a timely manner. Displaying results of the just complete tourament and promoting the next tournament. It is good that you and VMSBT are cross promoting and that you are promotiong other tournaments on your site. It can only help.
7. Sense of achievment. When bowlers when that local tournament, do they feel like the achieved some? Accomplished a goal? Or just meant they won more bracket money today? My guess would be the third. I am not sure how you put the sense of achievment or accomplishment back in to local bowling.
There is a lot to do to fix the local tournament scene. A big undertaking for whomever wants to attempt it. It can be done,I am sure and if done right, it wouldnt even so much depend on the local bowler right. Your doubles tourney proved that with atleast 6 states represented.
Bowl4money, your dad ran a top notch tournament organization. The best this area has seen in my opinion. The end of his club was the end of good scratch bowling in this area in my opinion. It was run like a professional event by a no nonsense guy. I think people running tournaments can look back upon when they competed in The Masters and take the good from it and combine it with what they are trying to do to make a more succesful business model for their tournaments.
In closing, sorry for being so long winded.
Post by: willie makeit on October 12, 2007, 11:26:17 PM
Post by: Mike L on October 13, 2007, 07:58:02 AM
I bowl just about everything in the local, va/md/pa, area and there are about 15 people in that area that i see every week. I bowl a league at Manassas that over half the league prob averages over 200, yet not one of them would step foot in any tournament and im not sure why either. Its not just in this area either though, ive been bowling in the chambersburg area, which has 4 houses that run a tournament on each of the 4 sundays every month. The 4 centers are probably within a half hour of each other. 2 houses gets 30, 2 houses get 60 and all of them are basically the standard 10 to 10 wall, all start at 10 am, all are $30 entry fees with a 1:3 cash ratio. But why is that 2 get 30 and 2 get 60? It doesnt make any sense. Lincoln Lanes gets anywhere from 50-80 guys but yet nellie fox and sunshine, literally 10 minutes away struggle to get 30. Very few of the house guys at Lincoln will travel to these other centers and it boggles my mind why not.
I dont think there is one certain thing that can be done, because no matter what you cannot please everyone. People are always going to complain about the shot, the approaches, the right/left issue, its a no-win situation for tournament directors. But the one thing that has been an issue in this area is no one coordinates tournaments together, however it does seem, mr. baker and mr. walton are certainly trying to help each other out and set their dates accordingly which can only help. Now it 2 other people could get out and run tournaments on the other 2 sundays a month i think it would definitely help draw entries.
I think the reason the chambersburg area does well is for 3 reasons, cheap entry fee, 1:3 ratio (which i think is way too high should be 1:5, but just my .02), and the most important thing is they are all regular events. Everyone in that area knows the schedule, Nellie Fox, Lincoln Lanes, Sunshine Lanes, and Dual Lanes doubles. And THIS NEVER CHANGES! In our area, the few monthly tournaments that are left, waltons/bakers, could be on any given sunday and i think that hurts entries some. If we could get some regularity in the area i think it could help draw some more of the local guys out. One other thing that hurts is there are 2 of the bigger leagues ran on sunday mornings in the northern va area, so you figures thats over 100 bowlers that we will never see bowling. Who knows what can be done, but i know ill continue to rack up the miles on my car and continue to support the tournaments.
Good luck at waltons guys, im going to Lincoln cause my ball backs up at Country Club
Mike Leonard
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on October 16, 2007, 04:03:28 PM
You raised some interesting points along with WABULLETS. It's funny how people want to associate PBA with a sense of accomplishment. PBA and Vegas have a lot in common, the "house" never loses. Alls I am going to say is do the math and you'll figure it out.
As an ex-member of EMMTL, I can start to compute the dollars spent trying to cash for $400. $200 entry, $80+ in gas in tolls after driving 4-5 hours each way, throw in a bite to eat and you made $100. I apologize to those that don't deduct their expenses from their earnings and have been thinking they are making $400 each time they cash. Now that's funny!!!
WABULLETS to touch on what you highlighted:
1.They do have guaranteed money at PBA events, the centers are giving them lineage...I'd like to receive free lineage and we are only asking for the center to kick back a few hundred dollars and not the $1000+ a regional burns up in lineage. That would help us local directors spread some extra bucks around. Believe me, I see plenty of card carrying members who don't beat me at league or others at local tournaments.
2.PBA does provide the comfort of knowing what you are bowling on. Why do the best bowlers in the world need to know what they are bowling on, that always blows my mind. Do the lanes, let every bowler be forced to figure it out and master it faster then the next person. That applies to local and professional tournaments, house shot, professional house shot or World Team Challenge type conditions. We all know that was a good tournament and it was always a surprise what the WTC had laid out for us.
3.You are dead on saying that a start time needs to be followed. Its funny that the same two PBA card carrying bowlers showed up late to every tournament. Once the local tournaments started giving out zeros, people stopped coming at 10 after.
4.Maybe 12pm is to late but we don't know what people do before they come to the tournament. Meaning they might have family, church or something else they need to handle.
5.Promotion is a huge part of being successful!!! Triple Threat, funny you should mention that tournament since I was just talking to someone about this very topic this morning. There are a whole bunch of people there that know about the other stuff and duck it. Oh yeah, they are there because they know Yvette or Janeen in case you did not know. By the way, it's Dec 2 this year due to the center having some obligations in October.
6.Timely, does that mean when someone has a moment in their personal life because I know our website and VMSBT is subject to people having work and personal commitments to fulfill.
7.A sense of achievement can be obtained at any tournament or league if you have a goal set. And that goal is personal as some are there for the dollar and some are there for the title.
Mike nailed it, to many of us won't leave our comfort zone and be challenged.
Post by: wabullets on October 17, 2007, 09:23:07 AM
1. By and large, card carrying PBA member does not equal best bowlers around at the regional level. There are plenty of people who have their cards and you ask yourself why? Cheap practice rates? Cheap equipment? Probably. I would bet 75% of the people who have their cards have it for those reasons. They dont have it because they choose to compete at a high level.
Those who do have their cards and do compete at the regional level what it guarantees you is the opportunity to bowl in a scratch environment for real and guaranteed money. It is nice to bowl for 12.5 times your entry at minimum. Most times 15 x your entry. It is nice when you cash, that you have doubled your entry. In todays scratch bowling world of "brackets mean everything", it just isnt a viable opetin for most because of the lack of brackets. Brackets, in my opinion, are one of the biggest reasons scratch bowling on a local level is where it is.
You are also right that the PBA has the center donated to them for the weekend that they are having the event at that particular center. But it is not the bed of roses you think it is because all that free money is not coming to usaa, the players. On an average weekend in the East, we lose/PBA takes about $3600. On a weekend like Forest Hill, it is about $7000. We get to bowl for those guaranteed monies more so because of the hard work of tournament hosts and the regional managers in securing sponsorships. Without their hard work in securing those sponsorships, there would be no regional program. It would be in the same downfall as most other scratch venues these days.
2. I will agree with you again, you dont need to know weeks in advance what you are bowling on as far as conditions go....you put on your shoes, you throw your ball, you see what you got. What the original post intended to say was you know what you were getting as far as the lanes being done correctly by a professional lanesman and the shot being put down by a lane machine that is kept in spec. The Wally Hall owned houses, Greenway and Annapolis do a good job of putting down the PBA patterns. Very close to what we bowl on. Those centers may have a knowledgable bowling staff. Suburban in York, pretty close. Perry Hall, pretty close. Ft Meade tries to but them down. Different lane machine different oil......not close. Crofton has tried...they cant even get a house shot right. The really should just turn that place in to one of those upscale Lucky Strike places. Most incompetent bowling staff I have ever seen but they sure know how to attract the Rock n bowl crowd. But most centers just have no idea how to put anything out other than a house shot. Anything else, you have just alienated your bowlers with garbage that a house you have no control over put out on the lanes.
On the other hand letting the bowlers know what they are facing in advance could be a good marketing tool. You may attract people you may not have other wise got.
4. Family obligations do come first and will probably keep that person away regardless of start times. A religous gambler, sort of contradictory, dont you think? lol They are gambling either way.
5 and 6 sort of go together. Promotion is HUGE if you are going to succeed. When you (not you but any tournament director) takes it upon themselves to run an organization, THAT becomes part of your commitments you need to fulfill. Yes,we all work. We all have family. We may even have kids with their activities. It may mean last night you had to stay up from 11pm til 130 in the morning to work on it but it is a responsibility you have chosen to undertake. If you do not take the responsibility seriously or give that commitment that you have pledged to the bowlers that you are trying to support, how will your organization succeed the way we all hope it will? You know (but most dont) that running a tournament is more than being at the bowling center on some given Sunday for 5 hours.
7. Sense of achievement is huge in my mind. I have that sense whether I cash, make the finals, win. Locally or on the road. League, Tournament or PBA. Even in practice when you feel you have conquered a flaw. The biggest achievement I see in most peoples faces these days is how much money they picked up at the bracket table. We have lost 33% of our entries for whatever reason (afraid, attrition, whatever), another 33% because of brackets. You stop running brackets you will lose 1/2 of the last 33% and you will have the last 15-20 guys who do it because they truly enjoy to compete. And there lies our biggest problem we face. The lack of desire to compete!
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on October 18, 2007, 12:43:19 PM
Post by: wabullets on October 20, 2007, 10:21:39 AM
Post by: alloutsmith3 on October 23, 2007, 09:03:17 PM
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Jason Smith
ABC North Lanes Pro Shop
Harrisburg, PA
VISE--The Choice of Champions
Post by: Phoneman on October 25, 2007, 08:15:24 AM
Post by: Mike L on October 25, 2007, 05:14:38 PM
Why does it matter if they are dead walls or not? I have just recently started bowling in most of those tournaments you mentioned and I have won several tournaments on tougher patterns as well. Ive gone 300 or more over for 6 probably 5 or 6 times in that area. I know it makes everyone equal but honestly good bowlers usually will still find a way to adapt to the enviroment. Trust me id much rather bowl on tougher patterns too, but the problem is when you do that, you'll lose alot of guys that have no chance. At least with THS, they will come out and support due to the fact that they feel they do have a chance.
If you had to bowl PDW or WRW, which pattern would you prefer, US Open or house pattern? Id like to say i think i am a decent player but id still bowl on the house shot because id feel like i have a much better chance. Thats how alot of guys that are less talented look at it too. You make them tough, the best will win 99% of the time, wall em up and maybe 50% so to the average house bowler theyd much rather take their chance on the easier conditions. I just hate people saying, "oh im not bowling there because the scores are too high", why whats wrong, you dont know how to strike? These are the reasons many tournaments are dying out and its truely sad.
Mike Leonard
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: alloutsmith3 on October 25, 2007, 10:52:45 PM
quote:
alloutsmith,
Why does it matter if they are dead walls or not? I have just recently started bowling in most of those tournaments you mentioned and I have won several tournaments on tougher patterns as well. I've gone 300 or more over for 6 probably 5 or 6 times in that area. I know it makes everyone equal but honestly good bowlers usually will still find a way to adapt to the enviroment. Trust me id much rather bowl on tougher patterns too, but the problem is when you do that, you'll lose alot of guys that have no chance. At least with THS, they will come out and support due to the fact that they feel they do have a chance.
If you had to bowl PDW or WRW, which pattern would you prefer, US Open or house pattern? Id like to say i think i am a decent player but id still bowl on the house shot because id feel like i have a much better chance. Thats how alot of guys that are less talented look at it too. You make them tough, the best will win 99% of the time, wall em up and maybe 50% so to the average house bowler they'd much rather take their chance on the easier conditions. I just hate people saying, "oh im not bowling there because the scores are too high", why whats wrong, you dont know how to strike? These are the reasons many tournaments are dying out and its truely sad.
Mike Leonard
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"Typical House Bowler"
It matters because when the scores become as inflated as they have and the shot as open as it is its more of a carry contest than a bowling tournament. Now before the "carry matters all the time", it matters alot more when you have to be +220 or more for 6 just to make stepladder. In my opinion the statement that the cream always rises to the top is not always true when bowling on a THS. I understand why the easier shot is put down, more bowlers equal more money for the house and for the tournament. I've had this discussion with many others and unfortunately I'm in the minority with my opinions that walled shots are for leagues not for tournaments. I will also say that I don't think they should be impossible just tighter than what they are.
As far as bowling a top level national touring player your chances might be slightly better on a THS but not as much as you think. You give them that extra room and they open the lane up bigtime, I've seen it first hand. As far as not knowing how to strike, I can string strikes with almost anyone. I have more than a few bowling accomplishments under my belt along with several tournament wins. You want to know whats truly sad about the game today, its that most bowlers don't want to be challenged anymore, they want everything handed to them on a silver platter. Your tired of hearing people complain that scores are too high, well I'm tired of hearing people whine about the shot not being easy enough or not being consistent enough or whatever the complaint of the week is. Trust me when I say that theres going to be more guys stop bowling the tournaments because their tired of shooting 220-230's all day and not having anything to show for it. Thats why the tournaments are dying out.
I'll be down to Northside in a month or 2 when I finish getting the car parted out. I hear they've been tighter there and thats the way they should be. I'm also going to continue bowling at Dual Lanes for the doubles tournaments and at the Carlisle Eagles for Jeremy Gilberts tournaments. They also run an adult/youth doubles tournament every month at Dual so I'll be bowling with my neice in those, that way when the scores are inflated I'll atleast get to enjoy her having a fun time. I'm sure I'll see you around.
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Jason Smith
ABC North Lanes Pro Shop
Harrisburg, PA
VISE--The Choice of Champions
Post by: Mike L on October 26, 2007, 08:58:42 AM
Its really a no-win situation when it comes to shots. All I know is i put my shoes on every sunday and bowl whereever the tournament is out, whether it be a house pattern or a sport shot, it makes no difference to me, because in my mind i can average 250 on a wall or 210 on something tougher.
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: Mike L on October 26, 2007, 09:19:26 AM
Ill be a Dual on sunday as well, so yep ill see you there.
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: Gazoo on October 26, 2007, 09:52:06 AM
Post by: alloutsmith3 on October 26, 2007, 04:44:28 PM
I know what your saying, you don't get your donators if the shot isn't a house shot. It's really sad that most bowlers won't bowl outside of their comfort zone for what ever reason they have. I didn't mean to sound like you were questioning my ability so I hope it didn't come off that way. Like you, I know I can be competitive on the THS and the sport shot. I did good in the sweepers at Sunshine this summer, all on THS, as well as some tighter pattern tournaments that I bowled in this summer. Its just that if I have the option to bowl a tournament were I have to avg 240-250 to make money or bowl with some youth bowlers and help them with their game, I'm going to choose the latter, because theres a much better since of accomplishment doing that.
I'd be willing to bet that if gave the national touring players their choice they would want to bowl on something thats more of a grind. Unfortunately they have to bowl in the higher scoring tournaments because thats what they do for a living, no bowling equals no paycheck. As for me, the money from the tournaments is just extra, so I can afford to pick and choose were I bowl. Like I said I'd much rather bowl with some youth bowlers or spend the time making myself better for when I have to bowl on the tighter patterns. That doesn't mean that I won't start bowling some of the THS tournaments again, I'm just not going to at the current moment in time.
See you Sunday at Dual.
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Jason Smith
ABC North Lanes Pro Shop
Harrisburg, PA
VISE--The Choice of Champions
Post by: Mike L on October 26, 2007, 05:50:58 PM
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 06, 2007, 10:23:03 AM
I can vouch for Mike, he bowls EVERYTHING! Easy, tough or in between he shows up, laces 'em up, ask no questions and finds a way to be competitive. "If I could be like Mike." ROFL
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STAY
FF MY BLCK!...Mr. Straight Ball prays his ball will hook one day!
40 Boards & A Ball
Is your ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
http://WWW.40BOARDS.COM
Post by: alloutsmith3 on November 06, 2007, 08:21:53 PM
quote:
alloutsmith3, are you limited to bowling those tournaments only? You have missed some tournaments within a 1 hour drive that have been giving just what you say you are looking for. You should of been at Gaithersburg Sunday, they were not a gimme by any means but they weren't impossible. I hope we get to see you venture out and join us!
I can vouch for Mike, he bowls EVERYTHING! Easy, tough or in between he shows up, laces 'em up, ask no questions and finds a way to be competitive. "If I could be like Mike." ROFL
--------------------
STAY
...Mr. Straight Ball prays his ball will hook one day!
40 Boards & A Ball
Is your ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
http://WWW.40BOARDS.COM
No, I'm willing to drive 1-1 1/2 hours to bowl on more challenging conditions with a higher level of competition. I had actually planned on bowling in a few regionals but had to put a transmission in my car so all of my regional money went there. I just learned of the VA/MD scratch bowlers tour website so I'll be watching that. If you know of anymore sites that keep an updated list of tournaments in the area please share them with me as I want to get out and broaden my horizons in the sport of bowling. I also like to meet new people that enjoy the game as much as I do.
*Edit*
I just visited your website and I'll be putting a few of your tournaments on my schedule for sure. Hopefully I can get a few other guys that I bowl with to come along and bowl also.
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Jason Smith
ABC North Lanes Pro Shop
Harrisburg, PA
VISE--The Choice of Champions
Edited on 11/6/2007 9:29 PM
Post by: Mike L on November 07, 2007, 07:12:05 AM
If you gave me half your revs and i could hook it like you, then maybe id be competitive
, but thanks i try my best to do what i can do. And yeah they werent exactly easy this week, although ira sure made him look like it.alloutsmith,
www.vmsbt.com and www.40boards.com are 2 sites that i know of. Mr. Baker and Mr. Walton (Mr. is used very loosely there but i was tought to respect my elders
) run 2 of the best tournament organizations in the va/md area and they do everything they can to put down tougher patterns when the house will cooperate, but sometimes we run into a wall from time to time but very rarely. But these organizations are going to stop trying to run tournaments if they cant get any support. Also the Triple Threat mens tourney is coming up at greenway bowl on dec. 2nd. MSB probably has a link to the flyer.
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"Typical House Bowler"
Edited on 11/7/2007 8:12 AM
Edited on 11/7/2007 8:12 AM
Post by: superlefty800 on November 07, 2007, 07:17:23 PM
BTW.. Mike is there a website for the tournaments in Chambersburg, PA?
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Chris Johnson
Storm Amateur Staffer
Post by: Mike L on November 07, 2007, 08:33:13 PM
Yeah its sad to see bowlers not willing to stop outside their leagues!
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: alloutsmith3 on November 07, 2007, 09:08:07 PM
quote:
This is good to see you guys talking about this. I bowl in a scratch league with 30 teams and I'll normally pass out 40 Boards & VMSBT flyers the weeks leading up to there events and everyone will say," Ok thanks, and I'll be there" but on tournament day they don't show and when I go back to league they will have every excuse in the book. It is a little frustrating for me as a bowler and I can't imagine the frustration as a tournament director. My hats off to all of you....
BTW.. Mike is there a website for the tournaments in Chambersburg, PA?
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Chris Johnson
Storm Amateur Staffer
Also check out:
http://www.freewebs.com/gilly300/index.htm
Its in Carlisle but thats not too far from Chambersburg. These are mostly smaller tournaments because its only a 10 lane house but its a change of pace and the scores are mostly on the lower side.
I also feel you on bowlers saying they'll be at a tournament and then not showing or giving a lame excuse as to why they aren't going to go. I try to do alot of promoting for other peoples tournaments as my uncle manages a center and I know all the managers of the other local houses so I have the means to do some promoting. It always irritates me when I get 10-15 entries lined up and 1/2 or more back out on me.
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Jason Smith
ABC North Lanes Pro Shop
Harrisburg, PA
VISE--The Choice of Champions
Edited on 11/7/2007 10:23 PM
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 08, 2007, 09:31:04 AM
Mike is on here trying to make ppl think he cannot hook it. I wanted to be like Ira getting it through that strip in the middle that hooked Sunday. LOL
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STAY
FF MY BLCK!...Mr. Straight Ball prays his ball will hook one day!
40 Boards & A Ball
Is your ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
http://WWW.40BOARDS.COM
Post by: northface28 on November 08, 2007, 10:28:32 AM
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Make history or sit back and watch it. -EV
Post by: dogman666 on November 08, 2007, 11:12:02 AM
quote:
I have a hard time understanding what all the fuss is about. This thread is littered with "donater" jabs, taking shots at players with less ability than yourselves. If you are going to ridicule them for being donaters , why would they show up? Perhaps to line your pockets? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Either way, the same elitist attitude permeates the air.... Please clarify if I am off-base.
So true. I'm one of those guys who has gone the way of the poker thing. I like to compete in bowling and although I might not have the talent I have the competitive juices to give it a try. Unfortunately guys like me get cold stares because I take a leisurely approach to the game. In other words I like to have a cold beverage and treat the tourney just like any other league I bowl in. Competiveness doesn't have to be cold!
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 08, 2007, 12:45:42 PM
Doggman…If you knew me, you know I can bowl with the hook in me. LOL If you don’t know the saying, then you need to come set sail with the Captain!
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STAY
FF MY BLCK!...Mr. Straight Ball prays his ball will hook one day!
40 Boards & A Ball
Is your ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
http://WWW.40BOARDS.COM
Post by: dogman666 on November 08, 2007, 12:58:07 PM
Post by: LAStrikesALot on November 08, 2007, 01:48:03 PM
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Latise Parker
40 Boards & A Ball
www.40boards.com
Edited on 11/8/2007 2:48 PM
Post by: dogman666 on November 08, 2007, 01:54:08 PM
Post by: superlefty800 on November 08, 2007, 07:25:49 PM
--------------------
Chris Johnson
Storm Amateur Staffer
Post by: Mike L on November 08, 2007, 10:05:11 PM
By no means am I bashing anyones talent or desire. I bowl with 2 guys that average 230+ every year but bowl 2 tournaments a year max, but thats because they just don't have any interest. We are talking about all the big shots that think they are "great" players because they average 220 on their league shot but wont bowl in tournaments because the scores are too high or the shot is too tough. I run a center here in Front Royal and trust me I know there is no pleasing everyone, but I am also a tournament bowler that laces them up every sunday regardless of the pattern or the talent that is there. If it takes a 250 avg, fine, if 210 makes money even better but no matter what ill be there giving it my best. If regionals paid a lil more or had a staggered prize fund, id consider bowling, but financially they aren't good investments, but thats a whole other topic.
Bowling is dying as a sport, well at least tournament wise. There are a number of different factors in that but MSB, CJ, and myself get tired of hearing all the excuses and whining from people that are suppose to be "the cream of the crop".
My personal opinion is those guys are just too prideful of getting beat up by some local hack like myself. I have more respect for guys like Inches and others that bowl everything and rarely cash, but hey at least they actually come out and play, unlike most of the local "house gods" and "local hall of famers"!
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: cgilyeat on November 09, 2007, 04:34:07 AM
Post by: Dbum on November 09, 2007, 07:10:34 AM
I guess it really depends on where the bowler is trying to take his/her game to. If he is trying to become an exempt player then you do what you have to by all means.
I know its nice to see where you are at sometimes, But there are much more Amateur events out there that can test you as well. I have a great time bowling in certain events with friends and alot of these events excludes PBA Members. Now what I don't understand is the bowlers that travel with the Regional tour from city to city and spend all of that travel money and feel good about a 400.00 cash at the least, You can build confidence by doing well in local events or at least they should practice on the patterns more so when they do go out there and compete they have an idea whats going on, don't go out there without a clue you will get ran over by players who see those conditions and lane breakdowns on the regular.
Great Convo guys..keep it up
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Darnell "DBum" Bell
Post by: LAStrikesALot on November 09, 2007, 11:12:27 AM
I totally agree that for some people its about where they are in their game and where they want to go in terms of bowling. And to me, their actions are consistent with their goals. But the ones with a million and one excuses, they are the ones that should be out bowling and could be out bowling, but they aren't.
And mostly, the women are no different. They have a defeatist attitude, so they don't even bother to come out. Me and joy bowled against the boys in juniors, and we'll have to keep on bowling against the guys now.
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Latise Parker
40 Boards & A Ball
www.40boards.com
Edited on 11/9/2007 12:20 PM
Edited on 11/9/2007 12:30 PM
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 09, 2007, 12:59:56 PM
I think one of the biggest mistakes people make is they finally make a tournament and have a bad outing. So what do they do? Never come back out because their ego is bruised. When you are use to bowling in one house, you know how to make all the right moves at that house. Tournament bowling is no different then being a great league bowler, the more you do it, the more comfortable you become.
--------------------
STAY
FF MY BLCK!...Mr. Straight Ball prays his ball will hook one day!
40 Boards & A Ball
Is your ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
http://WWW.40BOARDS.COM
Post by: Gazoo on November 09, 2007, 01:34:12 PM
Post by: Mike L on November 09, 2007, 04:27:57 PM
you are absolutely correct and thats fine, but i think me and jeff are talking about all the guys that say they are gonna be there and participate but then come up with a lame excuse for not bowling.
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 09, 2007, 09:30:19 PM
And you are correct Mike, we are referring to the dudes that give the answer that reflects "good" on them when they give it. If you are not coming, it's okay to say that...
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STAY
FF MY BLCK!...Mr. Straight Ball prays his ball will hook one day!
40 Boards & A Ball
Is your ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
http://WWW.40BOARDS.COM
Post by: alloutsmith3 on November 10, 2007, 07:47:05 PM
quote:
I have a hard time understanding what all the fuss is about. This thread is littered with "donater" jabs, taking shots at players with less ability than yourselves. If you are going to ridicule them for being donaters , why would they show up? Perhaps to line your pockets? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Either way, the same elitist attitude permeates the air.... Please clarify if I am off-base.
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Make history or sit back and watch it. -EV
quote:
So true. I'm one of those guys who has gone the way of the poker thing. I like to compete in bowling and although I might not have the talent I have the competitive juices to give it a try. Unfortunately guys like me get cold stares because I take a leisurely approach to the game. In other words I like to have a cold beverage and treat the tourney just like any other league I bowl in. Competiveness doesn't have to be cold!
I wasn't trying to take jabs at anyone, and "donator" probably wasn't the correct word to use and I should have worded things differently, so I apologize to anyone I might have offended. I don't want to come off as some arrogant prick who thinks hes better than anyone else because that isn't me at all. I'll help, talk to and treat everyone the same whether they carry a 150 avg or a 250 avg. I love the game and am very competitve so the only person I'm critical of is myself.
Its true I don't like high scoring tournament environments but that comes from the way I was brought up bowling and the guys I bowled with. Its not that I'm afraid of being beat, I've been beat more times than I've won. I've always tried bowling with and against the best and those guys bowled on the tough conditions and their views spread to me. Hopefully I can meet some of you guys and gals on here when I come to some of the tournaments that your putting together. From what I've seen on your website I really appreciate what your doing and will do my best to help support it.
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Jason Smith
ABC North Lanes Pro Shop
Harrisburg, PA
VISE--The Choice of Champions
Post by: LAStrikesALot on November 12, 2007, 06:54:30 AM
quote:
I think one of the biggest mistakes people make is they finally make a tournament and have a bad outing. So what do they do? Never come back out because their ego is bruised.
This is true, but there are also a few who come out and bowl for once and actually have a good outing and then "swear" they are going to bowl more tournaments, yet we haven't seen them since.
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Latise Parker
40 Boards & A Ball
www.40boards.com
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 12, 2007, 10:22:21 AM
Post by: Dbum on November 12, 2007, 10:54:22 PM
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Darnell "DBum" Bell
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 14, 2007, 12:08:18 PM
I am going to define scratch bowler like this…
A bowler who laces ‘em up and competes in a tournament that they don’t reward you for having a lower average. Everyone is eligible to compete in a scratch tournament but it seems only those that are ready to challenge themselves come out.
You are not a scratch bowler because you own more balls then the next person, just means you have money to burn.
Post by: Mike L on November 14, 2007, 09:25:11 PM
not sure who you are, but anyway thanks for the compliments. Me, honestly, no id much rather bowl those guys on tougher patterns and by tougher, i dont mean pba patterns because quite frankly those have become just as high scoring.
I was trying to get someone to see the point of why most people (house bowlers and certain tournament guys) will bowl on a dead wall but wont bowl if the shot is challenging. They look at guys like myslef, (not bragging at all but i do feel im one of the most competitive in the area) and say "i cant beat him when they are tough, but give me my league shot and now im equal"
Quite frankly i dont care what they put down, ill be there lacing them up and trying to be as competitive as I can, whether it take a grind out 210 or strike fest shooting 260's and MM2004, to me thats what it takes to be a scratch bowler!
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: Mike L on November 14, 2007, 09:57:23 PM
I bowled this weekend in a 10 gamer at lincoln lanes and it was on a house pattern, which most knew coming in. York had a 6 game sport shot tourney going on as well where 210 is a great game. I chose the 10 gamer because i knew they would have more brackets and its a hour closer for me. On the same hand I knew going in, i needed to avg. 240 or better to make any money, which does kinda suck but i think "good" bowlers should adapt to the scoring pace.
The guy that won, who i think is a better player than most think, shot 169 game 9 and was still +478. His backer said this is why we didnt goto york, so i said why?
His response:
"We knew this would be a shootout and thats his game"
THIS IS HOW PEOPLE THINK!!!
Like I said I think hes a much better bowler than what people think, however he does only bowl alot when they are high scoring or the left side is usually better. Trust me in no way am I disrespecting him because I think he could be competitive on anything, but the problem is we dont get to see it because he doesnt seem to bowl when they are tough.
The topic states "where are the bowlers" and guys like this are who Mr. Baker was refering to and these are the guys that could make tournaments better, but its guys that are less talented that look at it the same way. If they cant shut their eyes, miss by an arrow and still be dead flush, they wont bowl! WHY NOT???
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: Mike L on November 15, 2007, 07:36:17 AM
Trust me in the chambersburg anywhere, where alot of these house shot tournaments are at, I dont like seeing guys that use 2 fingers and a piece of their thumb and throw it all over the place and strike. One guy takes about 3 seconds, grabs his ball runs to the 2nd set of dots and just fires away and if he had any spare making ability at all, he would be dangerous. At the same time though, the 10 gamer had 90 brackets, which is getting to be unheard these days, and the hagerstown doubles tourney has over 100 singles and roughly 30 doubles. I go where I can make the most money.
All I was simply saying regarding the shot is to me it doesnt matter whats out there, ive won the red eye at +450 over and ive won at york going +20. Real bowlers, in my opinion, should be able to adapt to any environment and shouldnt have to call the center or tournament director to see what the shots going to be or if the the left side is blocked out. In my eyes, if you are really good enough, YOU CANT BE SHUT OUT!
And if you are who i think you are, you have shown that at a few vmsbts this year being the only lefty making the cuts and winning.
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: Dbum on November 15, 2007, 09:40:05 AM
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Darnell "DBum" Bell
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 15, 2007, 09:41:38 AM
Brizmo, “Toughest lefty in the area right now†as I have said recently. I SAID IT! Why the majority of lefties are complaining, Briz has figured out, there are locator arrows on 15 and 20 and has won playing in there too!
If you want to know why VMSBT & 40 Boards don't draw the same crowd as Triple Threat...the answer is simple. Close your eyes and visualize all of the faces there bowling. These are the same people that say they don't have the money to bowl but bring 7 ($150-200 per ball) of the latest & greatest balls to league. These same bowlers spend $100 or more a week in side action at one league before paying their league dues. A lot of money if you can do the math! Some with tell you they have kids, that’s why I don’t come but I see a lot of fathers bowling tournaments; some even have a kid or two there rooting them on while mommy is at work, out of town or just home relaxing. Don’t forget that they don't know about the tournament but amazingly know to ask, "How was the tournament?" when I run into them later the same day. These are the same people that ask you to keep them in the loop about tournaments because they are going to start bowling some tournaments. Let me be the first to say, there is nothing wrong with saying, I enjoy bowling league and I am content.
Here is an excuse I always here, there is not enough money. As BC says, "You cannot use an extra $500 to $1,000?" Bowlers bowl a league season to win $1,000 and that's before you deduct the $700 it cost you to win it. If all of the people who gave that as there "reason" for not bowling tournaments and showed up, there would be plenty of money at every tournament. Simple math, more bowlers times dollars = more money. If the 30 people who should be bowling but make excuses show up, now there are 60 people. We have now doubled the field, the prize money along with more people playing pots, survival and we know there will be A LOT more brackets to win.
The same people that have a million reasons why they don’t bowl tournaments are afraid to give that same song and dance because they don't want to let Yvette or Janeen down. Add in these same people who only bowl "certain" events to the other tournaments, now those tournaments go from paying $600-800 to $1,000 or more on a regular and now people show up to tournaments the same way they do to these quote unquote big money leagues. BUT TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN, people have to stop giving excuses and start bowling.
More entries = MORE MONEY, MORE MONEY, MORE MONEY! A tournament is only successful when the bowlers get together and start supporting them. If someone runs a bad tournament, we should not SUPPORT them. When there are organized tournaments like 40 Boards, Triple Threat & VMSBT (ABC order), by all means, we should support them. We are lucky, so many people always tell me, you guys are lucky to have stuff to bowl, there is nothing where I live. Us bowlers will bowl a poorly run event year after year just because we perceive there being a lot of money there to win.
Post by: Dbum on November 15, 2007, 09:53:54 AM
Now if I come out and play its because I can afford to play the way I want, but I have heard and seen bowlers do it that type of thing all the time. When Jim had the shirley & Falls church friday night tournament it was always pack and that because it was a cheap entry and bowlers dont mind losing that..Thats how they think..They dont go into a tournament thinking how much to win only what they are losing if they dont bowl well...
But I love what you and Tony are doing and you know I support you Jeff....
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Darnell "DBum" Bell
Post by: walt8398 on November 15, 2007, 10:07:25 AM
Just want everyone to know that VMSBT will be making some changes for next year.
1. Tournament will be held every 4th Sunday of the month. That's Jan-June & September-November.
2. New starting time of 10am. I agree with an earlier poster that we should start earlier than 12pm. (I know, what took me so long)
3. Format change. 5 games of qualifying and 4 games of match-play.
4. Entry fee will stay at $80 and $2-$3 more towards the prize fund because of one less game of qualifying.
As far as updating the website in a timely fashion, I'll take the hit for that. Life happens and the creating the pages become secondary. But that shouldn't deter anyone from bowling.
Yeah the PBA gives you a 1:3 ratio but don't let the $400 low to cash check blind you. I just ask that you do the math on one of the tournaments and then tell me if you feel the same way. A center puts up $5k for a regional, plus non-member service fees ($25)... I was a PBA member for 18 years and I won't discourage anyone from trying to bowl against the best. But don't just bowl their events blindly.
Keep the feedback coming.. It can only get better. :-)
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Tony Walton
Columbia 300 Advisory Staff Member
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com
Post by: Dbum on November 15, 2007, 10:21:41 AM
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Darnell "DBum" Bell
Post by: DP3 on November 15, 2007, 10:25:08 AM
quote:
Let me start my reply with the youngest of the last three to respond, MM2004. I bet MM does not remember when I use to help with MAYBE and he'd drive up and beat up on some of the other good young talent. I even saw you bowl Junior Gold back when I would go and support by watching. And since MM is the youngest, I hope he can solve the riddle…â€Where in de heck is the youth movement?†I've seen enough young talent in my years of being involved with Parent Coaches Assc that is now 20'something. It seems the young bowlers stop competing when they turn adult, it could have something to do with going from being the big fish to just another fish in the sea. Are the 20'some bowlers afraid to compete against the same people they once idolized? I had a bowler tell me, “I want to make a name for myself.†LA & I told this person, you have to get out and bowl and when you keep kicking some butt, they will know who you are.
I've been shadowing this thread and there are many many good points here by some of the best minds and best bowlers of the area. Maybe this should be turned into a round table discussion and played over the PA during league nights.
I do feel that I can answer a few questions concerning why there isn't more of the 20-something crowd out bowling every weekend. When I bowled youth and collegiately, I traveled around with 6-8 guys all the time and we were always bowling. Thirty to forty games a week practice, and tournaments on the weekend getting out butts handed to us, taking our bumps, and learning the ropes. That was during the days when most of us were in college and were free of bills and responsibilities.
I know for me while I was in school and not paying any rent, car note, and other bills any money I made from work could be spent on bowling and I didn't care if I lost it at all. It was just part of paying your dues and learning the ropes to get to the next level. Now that all of us are out of school, we're piled up in debt, $25-30k+ to repay in student loans, rent, and all of the other real life bills and what have you of the real world while still working entry level positions. Since I am out on my own, nobody pays my bills but me, and a few of us are in that same boat. I'm sure all of you guys have been there before.
When it comes down to things, if Sunday is coming up and I have the option of putting $150 into a tournament entry and side action, or paying a $150 bill on monday, my bills are going to take that decision everytime EASY. Also, my immediate circle of friends and I are all working two jobs trying to make ends meet out here so after a 60-75hr week's worth of work, when Sunday comes bowling is the last thing on my mind. If I'm lucky enough to catch a few sub spots a week for "free practice" then I'm happy where I'm at right now. It's just that for us and our situation, the real world is starting to kick our butts enough. I'm not going to go out and pay someone else's bills too on the weekends if I can't afford to at the moment.
At the Ft. Meade regional, I talked to my friend Richard Fairley (former National Amateur Champion) and we were talking about this same thing. It's the post college transitional period where bowling has to take a backseat in order for you to get your life on track. When it comes down to it, the only person I'm going to be bowling for is myself and not to gain the respect of what others may think about me as a bowler. If I'm going to play on a weekend, it's going to be because 1) I can afford it, 2) I want to compete, and 3) I feel that I'm going to be able to give 100% physically and mentally to compete because the last thing I want to do it throw my last couple hundred dollars in the air and bowl with the pressure of having to bowl better than everyone else to make it all back + more so I can pay my rent on time.
To the tournament directors, you're doing a great job and your dedication and persistence shows that you care about the game and bowling in our area. In due time there will be more entries, especially from the 20-somethings in the area once we get our feet planted.
Keep up the good work.
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-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop. Hyattsville, MD
Coach: University of Maryland Baltimore County Mens Bowling
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 15, 2007, 10:45:49 AM
There is no right entry fee amount. Lower the entry, lower the prize money and we are back to people saying "There is not enough money!" I had to laugh when a female bowler told me about our female only tournament, that is not enough money up top. ($50 entry, $500 1st) I forgot, organizations are beating down the doors to run Women's tournaments. I am still laughing!!!
I am not going to tell people HOE MUCH they are spending at the Rhodman every year thinking that if they cash they broke even. You know, the people that say made $300 because that's what they cashed for and they don't count expenses. My stomach hurts from laughing.
--------------------
STAY
FF MY BLCK!...Mr. Straight Ball prays his ball will hook one day!
40 Boards & A Ball
Is your ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
http://WWW.40BOARDS.COM
Post by: dogman666 on November 15, 2007, 10:52:47 AM
Post by: Dbum on November 15, 2007, 10:56:39 AM
I remember when Clinton was open..the shot sucked, But we use to run a lil tournament every wednesday night at 9:30 for 20.00..(yeah I know lineage wasn't a problem) but we would have 20-25 guys out there, Guys would be like let me borrow 20.00 to bowl. That where I 1st start seeing how the entry brought the bowlers out.
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Darnell "DBum" Bell
Post by: walt8398 on November 15, 2007, 11:19:27 AM
Don't even get me started on "pot games"! Man do I really miss the games at BA Silver Hill, Kent, FL University and the Sunday morning one at Capital Plaza... It's really ashame that the type of action bowling we grew up on is now extinct (sp).
--------------------
Tony Walton
Columbia 300 Advisory Staff Member
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com
Post by: Dbum on November 15, 2007, 11:21:54 AM
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Darnell "DBum" Bell
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 15, 2007, 12:27:05 PM
Now back to the discussion...DJ, we remember being where you are and the best part of life is those darn life bills don't go away; they just get bigger until you kick the bucket. LOL I am glad to see you are one of these fools bowling to keep the lights on, I can respect anyone making the "right" choices.
To the new generation of bowlers like DJ, that is exactly why we use to all bowl pot games. We were broke putting up $5/$10/$20 a game trying to make a dollar out of 15¢. ;-)
Back in the day, Dean Young ran Double Elimination on Wednesdays at Columbia during the summer,charged $30. We were not bowling for a lot of coins but we sure got to work on our games.
--------------------
STAY
FF MY BLCK!...Mr. Straight Ball prays his ball will hook one day!
40 Boards & A Ball
Is your ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
http://WWW.40BOARDS.COM
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 15, 2007, 12:34:49 PM
Dec 8
Bowl America Shirley
5pm start; 4:15pm check-in
$60 Entry
$20 Jackpots
$10 Survival 1-3
$10 Survival 3-5
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STAY
FF MY BLCK!...Mr. Straight Ball prays his ball will hook one day!
40 Boards & A Ball
Is your ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
http://WWW.40BOARDS.COM
Post by: Dbum on November 15, 2007, 12:38:46 PM
Squads 12pm-2pm-4pm-6pm (Chameleon)Pattern
its coming down to the last 2 weekends... www.tgplayers.com
Hit me for any information
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Darnell "DBum" Bell
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 15, 2007, 12:44:03 PM
--------------------
STAY
FF MY BLCK!...Mr. Straight Ball prays his ball will hook one day!
40 Boards & A Ball
Is your ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
http://WWW.40BOARDS.COM
Post by: walt8398 on November 15, 2007, 01:15:29 PM
Your killing me over here!
I don't have the slightest idea who your talking about!
--------------------
Tony Walton
Columbia 300 Advisory Staff Member
VMSBT Tournament Director
http://www.vmsbt.com
Post by: LAStrikesALot on November 15, 2007, 01:37:41 PM
I too applaud DJ for putting the necessities before the fun. It is true that this is the generation graduating with the most student loan debt in history. I'm cheap and I still found it easier to have the cash to bowl tournaments when I was in college. And all I can remember saying in college is, "I can't wait till I graduate and get a real job so I can bowl more!" I had more $ in college to bowl with (thanks EMMTL) then I do now, LOL.
Someone mentioned that they think another issue is there is just too much to choose from sometime. I also echoed this sentiment a few weeks ago after VMSBT at Gaithersburg. Mind you, I got the crazy look from the 2 folks I was talking to. Now I know at least one person shares my thoughts. I think when you have only a handful of people bowling, when they can choose a bunch of differnet things, its hard to pool everyone in one place.
That said, on the flip side, its only a handful of guys that will actually travel all over to bowl the different things. I still think this is part of the problem, I'm just not sure how much of a difference in entries we'd see if there was less choice.
I also like the idea of an even lower entry fee. It certainly makes sense, because as was pointed out, less money doesn't mean less payout as long as more people participate. For every dollar you drop the entry by, you need enough new bowlers to make up the difference to keep the payout the same. I use this theory when I run ladies side action and I tried to use this logic for the women's tournament we ran. The only thing is, you die an even quicker death if folks still don't patronize the event. Why? Because then you don't even get your Mike L's because they are going to choose the event with more cash to win if its running on the same day.
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Latise Parker
40 Boards & A Ball
www.40boards.com
Edited on 11/15/2007 2:40 PM
Post by: I_Bowl4Money on November 15, 2007, 01:42:30 PM
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Stephen Hahn
Post by: Dbum on November 15, 2007, 02:19:56 PM
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Darnell "DBum" Bell
Post by: Dbum on November 15, 2007, 02:46:58 PM
--------------------
Darnell "DBum" Bell
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 15, 2007, 02:47:39 PM
Shoot, you might see me there this year too for once, coughing out a lung from the chain smokers.
--------------------
STAY
FF MY BLCK!...Mr. Straight Ball prays his ball will hook one day!
40 Boards & A Ball
Is your ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
http://WWW.40BOARDS.COM
Post by: superlefty800 on November 15, 2007, 08:16:15 PM
As for DJ's post. Very good young man!!!! I wish I had been as wise in my younger days. I feel bad for the younger generation because when I came out of juniors in the early nineties there were several events you could bowl during the week that didn't cost much money. There were King of the Hill type tournaments at University, Capital Plaza, and Laurel and the entry fee was in the $20-$30 range. Then you had pot games at Silver Hill, Capital Plaza, Seminary plus those after dark pot games down in Waldorf. Heck there was even a Sunday night sweeper down in AMF Centreville if you didn't mind making the trip. I spent a lot of time in my late teens and early twenties only working part-time jobs so I wasn't making much money but these types of events really helped develop my tournament toughness and made me better player. Then if I made money in these events then I could afford to bowl a few extra tournaments. Now guys like DJ and the younger generation have to sub in leagues to win some extra cash but as we all know league gambling can be more expensive then bowling a tournament.
--------------------
Chris Johnson
Storm Amateur Staffer
Post by: Mike L on November 15, 2007, 09:59:14 PM
Entry fee $30, you get 50 guys that bowl for $250
Entry fee $80, you get 30 guys that bowl for $500
Either way, your bowling for the same ratio.
I see both sides of this because i run a center here in front royal and trust me it is IMPOSSIBLE to make everyone happy, all you can do is try to make MOST happy.
Make them tough you lose the "donaters"
Make them easy you lose the "good bowlers"
I say run a $40-$50 tourney, make them playable, kinda like gaithersburg was at vmsbt 2 weeks ago and you could probably get a mixture of both. +120 to make a 6 game cut isnt that outrageous, but for $80 you do lose some of the guys that are less talented. Tobys quick and cheap get a good turnout because of 2 factors, great location, and for $49, bowlers that probably dont have a chance will at least give it a try.
Once again I, in my opinion, feel that if the directors would get more consistant with dates, whether it be 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th sunday it could draw some more entries. I know that couple Sunday morning leagues don't help but there are plenty of guys that don't bowl in those that should bowl.
I know York use to get 100+ brackets with a $30 entry fee, he raised it to $40 or $50 whatever it is and cant get 30 people or 30 brackets.
Its not just like this in tournaments, its the same way in leagues. I bowl on Monday nights in Manassas, 32 teams of 5, pay $22 a night and i tried to bump it a $1, which in reality is $5600 more in the prize fund at the end of the year, and you woulda thought I said raise it $10. Bowlers in general don't understand the money issue.
Like I said ill be at whatever tournament I think I have the best opportunity to make the most money at and it makes no difference to me if its a dead wall or a sport pattern and I know there arent too many people out there like me, but I just don't understand why???
And yes if you cant afford it then yes trust me you are making the wise and correct decision not to bowl, but guys that can but wont because the shots too easy or the shots too tough is really the guys that i have a beef with. If you are a bowler and have the time and finances, get your azz out here and see how good you really are!
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"Typical House Bowler"
Edited on 11/15/2007 11:00 PM
Post by: Dbum on November 15, 2007, 10:10:23 PM
Mikey I with you mna..Like I said, If I know I cant playthe pots and everything the way I want to.. I dont come..
Later....
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Darnell "DBum" Bell
Post by: DP3 on November 15, 2007, 10:16:35 PM
. James and Nate are taking classes monday nights for the next 8 weeks so we might be back for the final session. Plus I'm taking over someone's spot in Waldorf for awhile and in Laurel until the end of December. I'm trying not to burn myself out with bowling like I did 2 years ago so I'm trying not to put in more than 6-9 games a week now unless I really get the urge.You say your shotmaking is off, I could never tell lol. You seem to be one of the only few that can get the ball to read and get a little angle out of the end of the pattern on the right side on mondays. Keep up the good work.
....Another thing I see from the crowd that does not bowl competitive tournaments is that they know they cannot compete for a stretch longer than 3 games because that is the format they are used to bowling. Quick and easy striking for three games then they can collect and pack up is what they're used to. Although not everyone shows it, I think everyone honestly knows where they're at. They know that their 220 avg isn't the same as some of you guys' 220 avg and they know deep down they can't compete "in your environment". That's the real reason why most of "the book" isn't out there bowling.
Alot of people also live average, boring lives, working for a POS boss at a job they dread going to in the morning and their league night is their escape from the BS they have to put up with that we don't see. League night gives them a chance to step out of their character and become a "superstar" for a few hours, showing off their new ball and striking up a storm to put on a show for everyone. If they average 215-220 year in and out doing that then that's all they care about. They don't really care about the extra accolades bowling competitively on the weekends so it's not like anyone can make them come out and be something they don't want to be. They might small talk you up like they're going to give it a go on the weekend, but we should know by now who is BS'ing and who is for real out there.
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-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop. Hyattsville, MD
Coach: University of Maryland Baltimore County Mens Bowling
Post by: Mike L on November 15, 2007, 10:36:09 PM
You are absolutely correct, most of those 220 house guys know that honestly even when it is there league shot they cant compete and thats fine, i have no problem with that. What bothers me, is when you see house guys standing around while the tournament is going on saying "im not bowling cause theres not enough bowlers" or "im not bowling its going to be a strikefest" or (and this one is the one i really get a kick out of) "im not bowling because these guys are professionals and its a tough shot so its unfair"
If you dont like it fine dont bowl, if you cant afford it fine dont bowl, but dont make some lame azz excuse for not bowling, just admit that just because you average 220+ on your local house shot and the league thinks your such a good bowler, doesnt actually make you a good bowler.
Also Brizmo made an excellent point:
Mr. Walton and Mr. Baker are not making a living running these tournaments. They do it for a hobby and do it for guys like me that will take the few hours on sunday to come out and support them.
These guys dont get enough credit or money for all the BS they put up with from the bowling community. These guys have my upmost respect for dealing with all of it and keeping their cool at the same time. You guys dont get enough credit for what you do!
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: LAStrikesALot on November 16, 2007, 08:02:05 AM
quote:
What bothers me, is when you see house guys standing around while the tournament is going on saying "im not bowling cause theres not enough bowlers" or "im not bowling its going to be a strikefest" or (and this one is the one i really get a kick out of) "im not bowling because these guys are professionals and its a tough shot so its unfair."
Thats what I'm talking about. Me and you are on the same page, Mike. Its the lame excuses that those guys give that is annoying. Just be honest and say, "I don't think I can compete with this field" or "I'm really just not interested in bowling on that level."
Here's an example, as a Tournament Director and spectator, there are people that will come up and talk to me and ask when the next tournament is and then give me the 5 minute conversation on how they really want to get out more, how they feel like they are throwing the ball well, how they got this new ball (or balls) that really opens the lane up for them, how they've been doing well in their PBA experience league and want to try some tournaments. Then you don't see them, or you see them standing in the back watching at the next event with some excuse as to why they aren't bowling. Like, honestly, if a person doesn't want to play then thats fine, but they need to be honest with others, and more so, themselves. Don't talk me to death with words that you think make you sound and look good because honestly, as we are all pointing out in this thread, we hear this stuff all the time. Words are a dime a dozen. It doesn't make me think more highly of a person because they "say" they want something. And honestly, it shouldn't make the other person think any more highly of themselves either.
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Latise Parker
40 Boards & A Ball
www.40boards.com
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 16, 2007, 11:23:52 AM
Lets apply that same principle to a 40 Boards event. It's Thurs night at Capital Plaza, both tournament directors are bowling as you know. Those same people could prepay us directly and lock up their spot the same way they do Big Daddy's. And last I checked, we qualify for the "Black Thing", shoot I know I'm a little tanner then most too. We held $9,630 to pay out Opposites Attract, so I think we can hold $60-100 without a problem.
To those that prepay for Big Daddy's that are reading this blog, prepayments are accepted for any 40 Boards event. And we offer payment plans for Opposites Attract so that you can put a little something something on your entry over an extended period that fits your budget. We are flexible baby!
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STAY
FF MY BLCK!...Mr. Straight Ball prays his ball will hook one day!
40 Boards & A Ball
Is your ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
http://WWW.40BOARDS.COM
Edited on 11/16/2007 12:28 PM
Post by: dogman666 on November 16, 2007, 01:16:55 PM
quote:
He!!, go to an all/majority white bowling alley or tournament and they will cry and complain about the noise. (TRUE FACT, WHITE PEOPLE, I'M SORRY TO SAY).
Not gonna happen at Burke. We are loathed by the masses for our smack talk. Smack talk is what makes an ordinary night of bowling into a social event.
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 19, 2007, 12:48:44 PM
The Rhodman championship is NY/NJ against all other areas as they rally behind their own. Ask Dawn Faye about the year she was in the championship round and someone yelled "MISS IT!" as she was getting ready to shoot the 10 pin. Not to mention, there is an area that all of the gamblers gather and start betting on their own or even bowlers betting on themselves. When that "Bookies Window" opens, you can bet $100 to thousands of dollars per match.
Please don't compare the "Tea & Crumpets" smack talking you see at Burke to the level of hardcore fan behavior you can witness in a title match at these tournaments. Brizmo can tell you, your skin better be more then thick when the backers/friends/family start popping off at the mouth to you, now add in the crowd reactions to every little thing that happens and the added weight that comes with a championship round appearance already.
--------------------
STAY
FF MY BLCK!...Mr. Straight Ball prays his ball will hook one day!
40 Boards & A Ball
Is your ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
http://WWW.40BOARDS.COM
Post by: superlefty800 on November 19, 2007, 07:39:18 PM
--------------------
Chris Johnson
Storm Amateur Staffer
Post by: LAStrikesALot on November 20, 2007, 08:16:05 AM
Even with Triple Threat events, I think its the same. Some folks from a particular Baltimore league patronize the event and others just follow.
Big Daddy's becomes a, "[Insert name here] is going and we can ride together so I'll go too.]
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Latise Parker
40 Boards & A Ball
www.40boards.com
Edited on 11/20/2007 9:16 AM
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 27, 2007, 08:22:40 AM
DECEMBER TOURNAMENTS
01 23rd Holiday Classic 10 Gamer @ Bowl America (Manassas, VA)
01 8 Game Marathon @ Pike Lanes (Bridgeton, NJ)
02 Triple Threat @ Greenway Bowl *Email triplethreat1560@aol.com
02 Scratch Tournament @ Shenandoah Lanes (Charlestown, WV) $1000 1st & $500 2nd guaranteed
08 Boards & Balls Tour @ Bowl America Shirley (Alexandria, VA)
09 Sport Shot @ Suburban Bowlerama (York, PA) http://suburbanbowlerama.com
09 Quick N Cheap @ Bowl America Shirley (Alexandria, VA)
09 Scratch Tournament @ Leisure Lanes (Lancaster, PA) http://leisurelanespa.com
16 Scratch Tournament @ Blue Hen Lanes (Newark, DE)
23 8 Game Marathon @ Blue Hen Lanes (Newark, DE)
30 Big One @ Bowl America Shirley (Alexandria, VA)
TBA 2nd Annual Holiday 8 Gamer * 40 Boards & A Ball (Dec 29 tentative date)
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STAY
FF MY BLCK!...Mr. Straight Ball prays his ball will hook one day!
40 Boards & A Ball
Is your ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
http://WWW.40BOARDS.COM
Post by: I_Bowl4Money on November 27, 2007, 09:31:21 AM
--------------------
Stephen Hahn
Post by: LAStrikesALot on November 27, 2007, 10:29:31 AM
So you want to join the chitlin circuit? LMAO!
The Rhodman and Bacardi (now DeWar's) are TNBA events. You can check them out at www.tnbainc.org
Some old person would be cussing me out right now for sharing that tournament info with you. If they could see the computer screen, they would probably be revoking my "card" as I type this messsage...
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Latise Parker
40 Boards & A Ball
www.40boards.com
Edited on 11/27/2007 11:31 AM
Edited on 11/27/2007 11:31 AM
Post by: I_Bowl4Money on November 27, 2007, 12:02:03 PM
quote:
Steve,
So you want to join the chitlin circuit? LMAO!
SIGN ME UP!!
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Stephen Hahn
Post by: Dbum on November 27, 2007, 12:43:57 PM
--------------------
Darnell "DBum" Bell
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 28, 2007, 09:57:13 AM
Scroll down on the left, click "Forms Download" and in the middle column you'll see links for league sanction form and individual sanctioning.
TNBA events are typically on house conditions but there is side action for days. For the bracket players, great tournaments to hit because you can play the kind of numbers we never see at local tournaments.
--------------------
STAY
FF MY BLCK!...Mr. Straight Ball prays his ball will hook one day!
40 Boards & A Ball
Is your ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
http://WWW.40BOARDS.COM
Edited on 11/28/2007 11:00 AM
Post by: Dbum on November 28, 2007, 09:59:20 AM
--------------------
Darnell "DBum" Bell
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on November 28, 2007, 10:00:56 AM
--------------------
STAY
FF MY BLCK!...Mr. Straight Ball prays his ball will hook one day!
40 Boards & A Ball
Is your ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
http://WWW.40BOARDS.COM
Post by: Mike L on November 28, 2007, 10:28:39 AM
--------------------
"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on December 03, 2007, 09:44:32 AM
Then Sunday, Triple Threat held their 4th Annual Open Classic at Greenway Bowl (Odenton, MD). Greenway put out the PBA Shark pattern for the 63 guys and 1 gal who competed. It took +15 for a check and +104 to make the finals for 6 games. In the opening matches, Chuoenn To beat Eddie Givens while Anthony Chapman beat Derek Petty. Anthony went onto beat To in the championship match.
--------------------
STAY
FF MY BLCK!...Mr. Straight Ball prays his ball will hook one day!
40 Boards & A Ball
Is your ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
http://WWW.40BOARDS.COM