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Author Topic: PBA Oklahoma Open / Bear Pattern  (Read 20070 times)

Walking E

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PBA Oklahoma Open / Bear Pattern
« on: June 25, 2014, 12:43:46 AM »
OK, first off - no, I am not on tour. Shut up.

1. Why can't everyone figure out by now that the right lane's approach has a sticky spot when shooting crosslane at 10 pins? How many times in these telecasts have we seen somebody stick on the right lane when shooting at a 10-pin? Don't they practice sliding in that area before the show? It baffled me each and every time I saw somebody stick at the line and whiff the 10-pin, then look down at the approach as if to say "Well, I wasn't expecting that." Seriously?

2. The blue oil is still stupid and useless, no matter how many times Randy tries to pump it up as a great innovation.

3. Those Bear pattern lanes were TOUGH! Question: When it gets to the point where if you miss a hair left it runs away Brooklyn, but you miss a hair right and you leave 2-8-10 or super washout - then why are these guys still aiming for the 1-3 pocket? Wouldn't it be better to, say, launch urethanes (or something similarly non-aggressive) straight at the 1-2 pocket and go for Brooklyn strikes? As somebody with a "grinder" background, I can assure you that this tactic works pretty good on a reverse block condition (which is what those lanes turned into after a game or two). Is it just a pride thing? Do they really think that they will suddenly find some stable hold if they keep moving left?

Anyway, those are just my thoughts after watching the telecast.

 

northface28

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Re: PBA Oklahoma Open / Bear Pattern
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2014, 01:36:09 PM »
I understand playing deep to find head oil, but I'd still like an explanation as to how it creates hold on a flat pattern.

Side rotation creates skid to the right and recovery, you can't play in on that pattern and be end over end, ball with either read too early and/or hit like dog dookie. This is why Pete Weber is typically in the running on the US Open pattern because he can create skid/hold with his release.
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Strider

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Re: PBA Oklahoma Open / Bear Pattern
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2014, 01:54:43 PM »
I realize that, but I still don't see that as creating hold.  I struggle plating way in because I have very little tilt and have a lot less axis rotation than I used to.  I can hit the pocket, but my carry percentage is awful.  When I think of hold I imagine (a good bit) more oil inside of your target so that if you pull one slightly it might hold pocket.  As long as there continues to be more head oil inside of target, of course there's a chance it might hold pocket, but I wouldn't call that creating hold.

If everyone would have played straight up 10 (for the sake of argument) there would have been plenty of head oil to the left.  As they would have slowly moved left there would have been more head oil.  This would have been common sense, but I can't imaging anyone saying that they were "creating hold" by moving in.  Is it just two ways of saying the same thing, or a I still missing something?

northface28

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Re: PBA Oklahoma Open / Bear Pattern
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2014, 02:04:50 PM »
I realize that, but I still don't see that as creating hold.  I struggle plating way in because I have very little tilt and have a lot less axis rotation than I used to.  I can hit the pocket, but my carry percentage is awful.  When I think of hold I imagine (a good bit) more oil inside of your target so that if you pull one slightly it might hold pocket.  As long as there continues to be more head oil inside of target, of course there's a chance it might hold pocket, but I wouldn't call that creating hold.

If everyone would have played straight up 10 (for the sake of argument) there would have been plenty of head oil to the left.  As they would have slowly moved left there would have been more head oil.  This would have been common sense, but I can't imaging anyone saying that they were "creating hold" by moving in.  Is it just two ways of saying the same thing, or a I still missing something?

What you are describing is artificial house shot hold, when its flat, there is no hold. You are low tilt and low rotation which I why I think you have a hard time understanding this concept. No slam on you, as I could be explaining this improperly as well.

When you get around the ball, it "floats" to the spot, therefore creating hold that isn't there. Who's to say they didn't play up 10 in practice? We don't know, but its not easy for guys on a flat pattern, on HPLs, with rev rates north of 375 (as Marshall Kent probably had the lowest rev rate and he's about 375) to play up 10. I know you prefaced it with "for arguments sake" but this isn't the PWBA and we must stop this "play up 10" mentality.
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itsallaboutme

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Re: PBA Oklahoma Open / Bear Pattern
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2014, 02:12:21 PM »
Pete's release creates recovery that very few others can create. 

Moving in and playing more angle through the front of the lane gives the illusion of hold as you float the ball to the track area of the lane.  Then as the lanes break down you are moving left staying in the oil with the broken down area to the outside giving you a slight bit of recovery if you are lined up properly. 

This isn't "hold" as you know it, it is simply some oil to get the ball down the lane. 

Strider

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Re: PBA Oklahoma Open / Bear Pattern
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2014, 02:37:24 PM »
Maybe it's just splitting hairs, but to me that's using already existing, not creating  hold.

Jorge300

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Re: PBA Oklahoma Open / Bear Pattern
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2014, 02:46:34 PM »
Strider,
     I don't think it creates "hold" per say, but it takes the lack of hold out of the equation. The side rotation allows the ball to continue down the path it was thrown, even if the heads may have broken down. The core of the ball is rotating in such a way that it hasn't begun to turn itself into a roll yet. At least, this is my understanding.
Jorge300

itsallaboutme

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Re: PBA Oklahoma Open / Bear Pattern
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2014, 02:52:44 PM »
It's creating hold with playing more angle through the front of the lane.  If you don't play more angle through the front it isn't there.

It is the illusion of hold to your ball because the ball is going through more oil.

Strider

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Re: PBA Oklahoma Open / Bear Pattern
« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2014, 03:25:51 PM »
It's creating hold with playing more angle through the front of the lane.  If you don't play more angle through the front it isn't there.

It is the illusion of hold to your ball because the ball is going through more oil.

Thanks - that makes sense.  I'm sure it was there all along, but I just wasn't seeing it.

northface28

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Re: PBA Oklahoma Open / Bear Pattern
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2014, 04:24:27 PM »
It's creating hold with playing more angle through the front of the lane.  If you don't play more angle through the front it isn't there.

It is the illusion of hold to your ball because the ball is going through more oil.

Thanks - that makes sense.  I'm sure it was there all along, but I just wasn't seeing it.

What he said, just explained better.
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itsallaboutme

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Re: PBA Oklahoma Open / Bear Pattern
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2014, 05:05:38 PM »
When a flat condition is used in a regular bowling center there is some slight "built in" friction because of the track, even on synthetics.  So typically on the fresh guys will be playing somewhere around 20 or slightly left for the higher rev guys out to around 10 at the breakpoint, creating that angle through the front of the lane, but not letting  the ball get too far away from the pocket.  As the lanes break down the players will chase the head oil left, but the breakpoint never changes because there is no build up of condition in the middle.  You can't go to a weaker ball until the lanes are completely torched because it just won't recover.  Moving right doesn't work as then the friction will be to the left of where you are trying to play, bringing 3 off the left into play along with 3 off the right. 

I've only seen a couple of guys play straight, and that was only on the fresh for about a game.  Basically surviving until the lanes start to break down slightly.  But for the guys that start straighter their move is about 25 left with their feet when they do move.

avabob

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Re: PBA Oklahoma Open / Bear Pattern
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2014, 02:14:48 PM »
There is actually hold area on the long pattern all over the lane.  The problem with the long patterns is that there is not enough swing area for a super high rev release if you try to play much to the right of 4th arrow.  It is really a geometry solution.  Start with the widest break point that you think the lanes will support.  On these long patterns it is inside of 10 board, often almost to 15.  Draw a lines from the break point back to various lay down points starting at 3rd arrow.  At 3rd arrow you can play almost no out angle if you want to keep it inside of 10 at the break point.  At 4th arrow you can play a bit more if you have the revs, and at 5th you can play even more.  The pros create enough revs to over come some of the long oil, and certainly enough to blow up spots in the heads.  What these guys do is find a spot to start, and make parallel moves left as the heads break down, so that the out angle increase slowly. 

Contrast what Valenta did by pretty much destroying the heads for everyone on the first Badger pattern, to the way the guys attacked it the second time.  Valenta felt his ability to loft and take the heads out of play was an advantage, so he blew them up in practice.  It would have worked had O'Neil not been able to find a line to the right of where Valenta started, thus taking the blown heads from the practice session out of play.    In the latter tourney also won by O Neil, they all worked more on developing a track, and following the head oil left, negating the need to take the heads out of play. 

itsallaboutme

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Re: PBA Oklahoma Open / Bear Pattern
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2014, 09:18:57 PM »
Bob,

Bear, not Badger.  Bear is the 40 foot flat pattern.

avabob

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Re: PBA Oklahoma Open / Bear Pattern
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2014, 10:03:12 AM »
Sorry, I shouldn't have posted this on the Bear Pattern thread.  I was responding to someone talking about creating hold on the Badger.  No way to create hold on the Bear.  The reason the Bear is so tough is that you cant find hold, and swing area is tricky as the lanes transition. 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 10:06:17 AM by avabob »