BallReviews
General Category => PBA => Topic started by: MrPerfect on April 02, 2010, 05:09:57 AM
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This is open about any manufacturer, but specifically I was curious if people thought the reason the Big B seemed to be having a bad year on tour was depth of the arsenal available to their tour players? Or the quality of the balls they are producing? They are doing great this week, so hopefully we can see one of them right the ship.
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One of the theories that I've heard is the oil that they put on the lanes. For a while, it seemed that Storm's covers were reacting the best this year out on tour..
Now, it's seems the Ebo cover seems to be doing well..
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Yes. it's I, the Inverted One..
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I don't want this to be a flame war so I will be listing the number of shows by manufacturer later tonight.
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At this level of competion the BRAND of bowling ball a top-caliber player is using means very little. It's all about execution and adjustments.
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I would say brunswick has had a REALLY bad year. They have the 2.5 & 3.5 which seem great, & also a few others that look good, yet havent had much success on tour at all.
Shawn
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In the bag
Ebonite Mission(pin under bridge, low weight hole) polish over OOB
Storm Fast(pin under bridge, low weight hole)
Storm Natural(pin over ring)
Coming soon
high scores??
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quote:
I would say brunswick has had a REALLY bad year. They have the 2.5 & 3.5 which seem great, & also a few others that look good, yet havent had much success on tour at all.
Is it the balls, or is it the guys throwing them?
Sean hasn't had the best season for spare shooting. Parker hasn't been consistently a top finisher in years. Brad is solid often, but rarely outstaning (compared to the pack). Diandra Asbaty had a solid year, as did CDB (for what was of the women's series)
I agree, some of this recently may be the oil not conducive to length, which helps the Brunswick stuff generally, but alot of it has to do with who's throwing it.
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A perfect example of whether it's the ball or the player ? Walter Ray Williams, Jr., has won 47 Pba national titles using equipment from many companies. He's won with:
900 Global
Brunswick
Columbia 300
Dyno-Thane
Ebonite
Faball
Morich
Track
He's also made the telecast using at least one other brand:
AMF
If anyone can add to the list please feel free.
I've seen other top players use many brands over the years and win:
Norm Duke
Brian Voss
Wayne Webb
As i stated earlier, at this level of competition it's all about adjustments and execution.
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Shows by manufacturer:
Storm - 19
Columbia - 12
Rotogrip - 8
Ebonite - 8
Hammer - 7
900Global - 6
Brunswick - 6
Track - 1
As seems to be the pattern Storm seems to be the clear manufacturer of choice of those that make the show, Columbia has almost completed its resurgence on tour, and after that it's pretty even with Track trailing mightily.
I don't understand why they don't move Couch or Tommy over to track to give that brand a real name since they seem to use Track stuff in qualifying more than any other Hopkinsville brand.
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quote:
A perfect example of whether it's the ball or the player ? Walter Ray Williams, Jr., has won 47 Pba national titles using equipment from many companies. He's won with:
900 Global
Brunswick
Columbia 300
Dyno-Thane
Ebonite
Faball
Morich
Track
He's also made the telecast using at least one other brand:
AMF
If anyone can add to the list please feel free.
I've seen other top players use many brands over the years and win:
Norm Duke
Brian Voss
Wayne Webb
As i stated earlier, at this level of competition it's all about adjustments and execution.
Yes for some bowlers it is an issue of style, because WRW could throw anything and make it work. I bowled against him in matchplay at a regional, we were bowling on Shark, and he beat me with a plastic ball. I doubt what he throws matters much. For others have the right equipment is essential.
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I have to agree that at their level the ball company does not really come into play much
every company has so much damn product out there that these guys can choose what ever the hell they want and drill it to do what ever the hell they need it to do
I think it more in the ability of the pros to match up to the lanes and adjust at the right time is what gets them on TV and gets them their wins
biggest thing people that have never been on tour dont realize is that the ability to make the correct adjustments at the proper time is really what helps these guys score
the average or even high end bowler simply does not read patterns as well as most of these guys do or make adjustments correctly as fast as most of the pros do
their equipment is not to blame for them winning or losing
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Its a big misconception here. Now with companies opening their whole line up just because barnes throws columbia on sunday doesn't mean he did all week.there was a show bill oneil made where he threw the nasty but on exra frame all week he threw the snot out of the total bedlem..on sundays it seems more politics goes on than during the week..
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The 800 pound gorilla not mentioned above is that with all that oil grabbing surface being thrown down the lane, no lane oil is going to last very long. This year almost no one is getting to bowl in their comfort zone.
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quote:
Its a big misconception here. Now with companies opening their whole line up just because barnes throws columbia on sunday doesn't mean he did all week.there was a show bill oneil made where he threw the nasty but on exra frame all week he threw the snot out of the total bedlem..on sundays it seems more politics goes on than during the week..
Yeah, that was my point with the Track comment. I think right now you need to look at the depth of the arsenal available which is where I think the Big B is getting hit badly. While the Storm/Ebonite guys have a depth of arsenal at their disposal, the Big B doesn't have anything outside of their product line to allow their tour players to use.
You give the best guys in the world 24 opportunities to match up and score well or 8, which do you think is consistently going to do better? The numbers above seem to drive that point home if you don't have WRW on staff.
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If the best in the world go through 24 balls they will have lost before they found what is right. Brunswick is one product line with many different bowling balls. How many staffers do they have compared to the Ebonite family of 4 different companies?
If you look at the product line available before some of the discontinues started there was more then enough for anyone to choose from. Not to mention with different drill patterns and surface adjustments the options are endless.
It is obvious it comes down to the number of bowlers on staff and whom they are. http://www.bowlwithbrunswick.com/pros/
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
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Now compare that to Brunswick of the 90s when they had every bowler under the sun on staff and how many pros made the show week in and week out.
When Brunswick let all of the pros go and kept only a few that shows how little of importance the PBA is at this point. (at least to Brunswick, although the world isn't far behind when you look at ratings)
Most of the topics of late are how bad the shows are, what does the PBA tour need to and on and on.
No one watches the PBA on TV enough in terms of wanting to advertising your product. Your better off making youtube videos and commercials that way. Remember when they use to make commercials for bowling balls? That all stopped for a reason.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
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Now compare that to Brunswick of the 90s when they had every bowler under the sun on staff and how many pros made the show week in and week out.
When Brunswick let all of the pros go and kept only a few that shows how little of importance the PBA is at this point. (at least to Brunswick, although the world isn't far behind when you look at ratings)
Most of the topics of late are how bad the shows are, what does the PBA tour need to and on and on.
No one watches the PBA on TV enough in terms of wanting to advertising your product. Your better off making youtube videos and commercials that way. Remember when they use to make commercials for bowling balls? That all stopped for a reason.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
The reason is a lack of good ideas and insight in the bowling industry, and everyone wanting to do everything on the cheap because we've apparently been dieing for years now, but yet here we still stand.
It's a bit like what caused the recession, it's all in our heads.
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I saw something that Norm Duke said and I think it explains us as an industry and a consumer base...he was explaining how he would never ever tell anyone he was a bowler almost out of shame.
Everything I see in terms of advertising and negotiations seems like we go into everything thinking that way. It's hard to prove to people that you are valuable to them if you don't even think you are valuable.
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One thing you all are forgetting is that EVERY company has years where they are low on the pole for shows and wins. Just a few years ago Brunswick dominated. A few years ago Ebonite/Hammer did. I remember when the Track Heat came out Track was tearing the tour up that season. Columbia has had it's day up top, so has Storm/Roto Grip. I guess what I am saying is that it goes in streaks. Many great players are using the Storm family and many more using the Ebonite family. Not many using Brunswick or 900G. I am not the smartest person but if the greater numbers are with Storm familiy of equipment and also the Ebonite family I am going to put my money on them for having better years. I know not always the case but it sure helps. Also too you have to keep in mind all of the older balls that some of the players may have around.
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Kyle
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quote:
Shows by manufacturer:
Storm - 19
Columbia - 12
Rotogrip - 8
Ebonite - 8
Hammer - 7
900Global - 6
Brunswick - 6
Track - 1
So basically:
Ebonite - 28
Storm - 27
Brunswick - 6
900 Global - 6
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Brunswick could use a "gotta have it" ball that matches up for the tour shots and oil like they did back in the Absolute Inferno/Vapor Zone days. Then the Big B staffers (which weren't huge in numbers then either) and the independents would all flock to those balls. I remember Amleto and Duke winning titles with the Absolute when they were independants.
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A big part of sponsoring on tour is to generate revenue/interest for your product. Does it really work that much anymore with so few people watching?
Is that a wise investment of money? Many companies seem to think not. You could not be a PBA sponsored company and advertise for the cheap on the TV shows in commercials. You would have product placement any week you wanted and it would cost less.
You could even sponsor a tournament and have your name plastered everywhere along with your promo spots on the telecast like the Dexter foot work of the pros or whatever you decided to call it.
It would cost your company less and actually get more out of your product. Be honest who watched the show with a different shot on each lane and thought wow that is a great promotion for those bowling balls?
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don''t "
Edited on 4/3/2010 7:55 PM
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Mr. Perfect if you think the PBA is here for ever on tv and ect and that it can't fail just remember what happened to seeing the WPBA and Senior PBA on tv. If things continue on this pace the PBA will be next.
Hope I'm wrong.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
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Mr. Perfect if you think the PBA is here for ever on tv and ect and that it can't fail just remember what happened to seeing the WPBA and Senior PBA on tv. If things continue on this pace the PBA will be next.
Hope I'm wrong.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
I'm talking about bowling, not the PBA.
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Brunswick could use a "gotta have it" ball that matches up for the tour shots and oil like they did back in the Absolute Inferno/Vapor Zone days. Then the Big B staffers (which weren't huge in numbers then either) and the independents would all flock to those balls. I remember Amleto and Duke winning titles with the Absolute when they were independants.
I think they would have had one this year with the 3.5 if it wasn't for the buzz the Mission has created. Overall the C-System balls have seemed to be winners.
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I was just at Baltimore yesterday. I saw alot of Brunswick balls going down the lane. There weren't too many non staffers not throwing Brunswick.
By the way that was some great action going on towards the last couple of games last night.
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Adam Baer
Brunswick Regional Staff
Vise Regional Staff
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation
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I see. In terms of bowling in general it will always be around. Leagues may not ever be what they once were, but there will still be bowling.
As far ar Brunswick on tour it may not make a lot of TV shows but that has less to do with product and more to do with whom and how many throw it.
Technically Track was suppose to be geared towards higher average bowlers and be the premium product of the Ebonite family.
How well has that worked on the PBA this season?
The Mission came in with a loud roar but it seems to have dwindled as of late. Seen very few in my area throw it and lots of people on the different boards saying it is ok but not Ebonites best release to date like they had hoped. I would say in terms of general public the Hammer stuff has been huge this season.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
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Technically Track was suppose to be geared towards higher average bowlers and be the premium product of the Ebonite family.
How well has that worked on the PBA this season?
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
What do you base this on? About 5-7 years ago, and probably before Ebonite's acquisition, Track had quite a few high end asymmetric releases and may have been considered more "high end" than Ebonite. Since that time, Track seems to be relegated to the back of the bus. Ebonite has been kind of hit or miss, Columbia seems to be on the rise, but Track seems to be an afterthought. I can at least see a direction with the other two, but what is Track's reason to be? Not that they're making bad products, but I just know how or why a ball is released with Track's name on it.
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Penn State Proud
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive (http://"http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm")
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quote:
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Technically Track was suppose to be geared towards higher average bowlers and be the premium product of the Ebonite family.
How well has that worked on the PBA this season?
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
What do you base this on? About 5-7 years ago, and probably before Ebonite's acquisition, Track had quite a few high end asymmetric releases and may have been considered more "high end" than Ebonite. Since that time, Track seems to be relegated to the back of the bus. Ebonite has been kind of hit or miss, Columbia seems to be on the rise, but Track seems to be an afterthought. I can at least see a direction with the other two, but what is Track's reason to be? Not that they're making bad products, but I just know how or why a ball is released with Track's name on it.
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Penn State Proud
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive (http://"http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm")
Alot actually almost all of the Ebonite family staffers were throwing Track stuff all day yesterday(Barnes, Oneill, Jones and Scroggy a little)
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Adam Baer
Brunswick Regional Staff
Vise Regional Staff
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation
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quote:
quote:
Technically Track was suppose to be geared towards higher average bowlers and be the premium product of the Ebonite family.
How well has that worked on the PBA this season?
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
What do you base this on? About 5-7 years ago, and probably before Ebonite's acquisition, Track had quite a few high end asymmetric releases and may have been considered more "high end" than Ebonite. Since that time, Track seems to be relegated to the back of the bus. Ebonite has been kind of hit or miss, Columbia seems to be on the rise, but Track seems to be an afterthought. I can at least see a direction with the other two, but what is Track's reason to be? Not that they're making bad products, but I just know how or why a ball is released with Track's name on it.
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Penn State Proud
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive (http://"http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm")
Thats Ebonites words after buying Track and pushing it to be their higher end product line for the Ebonite family. That was also another reason for the number system.
I don't doubt they throw Track during the week, it was more in reference to TV appearances.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
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quote:
quote:
quote:
Technically Track was suppose to be geared towards higher average bowlers and be the premium product of the Ebonite family.
How well has that worked on the PBA this season?
--------------------
" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
What do you base this on? About 5-7 years ago, and probably before Ebonite's acquisition, Track had quite a few high end asymmetric releases and may have been considered more "high end" than Ebonite. Since that time, Track seems to be relegated to the back of the bus. Ebonite has been kind of hit or miss, Columbia seems to be on the rise, but Track seems to be an afterthought. I can at least see a direction with the other two, but what is Track's reason to be? Not that they're making bad products, but I just know how or why a ball is released with Track's name on it.
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Penn State Proud
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive (http://"http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm")
Alot actually almost all of the Ebonite family staffers were throwing Track stuff all day yesterday(Barnes, Oneill, Jones and Scroggy a little)
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Adam Baer
Brunswick Regional Staff
Vise Regional Staff
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation
Yeah, this is why I don't know why they don't move one of their major staffers to Track, because the majority of the Hopkinsville brand prefers their stuff when the camera's aren't on. If they aren't going to move one of the big dogs they should focuse their attention on getting a consistent young guy like Ciminelli.
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On most weeks the Ebonite Brands Staffers have been using Track all week but due to contract restrictions can't on the show.