BallReviews
General Category => PBA => Topic started by: riggs on July 02, 2012, 08:08:58 AM
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The 11th Frame: Changes for PBA Tour's 2012-13 season don't alter tough bottom line for players
http://11thframe.com/page/blog_id_5192
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Great article Riggs. Thanks for sharing.
Tough to stomach the new schedule for sure. . .maybe the regional schedule will suffice.
Bottom line I believe is without some really big $$$ from sponsors the US tour may never happen again.
I hope something changes in a positive way. Never give up.
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I agree 100%. This is a great read. It really puts the Tour into perspective. When you now have to go OUTSIDE the United States to expand the schedule? Instead of having a couple tournaments in various regions around the US, your destinations are now Vegas and foreign countries; that says ALOT. Whats funny is that the Tour supposedly was holding a big bulk of the Tournaments in one spot (Vegas) to cut down on some expenses. But, now they are heading to quite a few foreign countries? I am sure those expenses are really cheap. If these stops dont generate alot of cash, I could see the Tour folding in the next couple years simply because I dont see how alot of the bowlers out there can afford to travel to all those foreign countries.
Great article Riggs. Thanks for sharing.
Tough to stomach the new schedule for sure. . .maybe the regional schedule will suffice.
Bottom line I believe is without some really big $$$ from sponsors the US tour may never happen again.
I hope something changes in a positive way. Never give up.
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When people from work asked why I wasn't a professional bowler after they saw in a newspaper article that local product Sean Rash was the PBA Player of the Year, I asked if they saw his yearly earnings of $140,000. Granted, that doesn't include his endorsements, but thats the best player in the World... He made $140,000 on the PBA Tour. Over 50% of it ($80,000) from one tournament, the TOC. And it's a severe drop to 10th place in total money, which was $40,000. And that's not to say I would be successful out there. Never tried. Doubt I ever will. Don't need to try to satisfy my bowling desires. The point is, people come into my office, see my bowling awards, hear about my bowling scores at the National Tournament and do what most uneducated people do when it comes to bowling... ASK WHY WE DON'T BOWL ON THE PRO TOUR. The answer is normally very convaluted, but the premise of the discussion curculates around the amount of money to be made.
It's the #1 reason I don't go out and bowl any PBA events. Even if I cash, I'm losing money. Some of that can be attributed to living in Alaska, but the reward is not even remotely worth the risk unless you're nearly fully backed by other financial sources. The experience may not be duplicated anywhere else, but how much money are you willing to lose just so you can supplement your 9-5 with a couple thousand bucks here and there?
The reality is, the US PBA Tour today is the Regional Tour. And the World Bowling Tour makes a few stops in the United States.
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Even when the tour was at its high point, there never was enough money to entice anyone who had a halfway decent job to go on tour. I went through the same thing you did for years. When guys asked me that question more times than I can remember, I simply said that I didn't think I was one of the top ten bowlers in the world, but I made more money from my job than the 10th best bowler on tour did.
No I am retired and I can ball for more in senior mega buck tournements than a senior pro can shoot for. Sad indeed.
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What do Senior Megabucks pay?
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While the PBA has poured tens of millions of dollars into the tour, they have also made it as hard as possible to incorporate new bowlers into tour. The regional tours are all centered around key areas instead of spread across the "region" making it hard for guys who arent in the region to travel and compete. And even if one were to travel, they'd have to win it or come close in order to turn a profit. The PBA has been so worried about anointing young stars and protecting the tour from amateurs that theyve left a bad taste in the mouth amateurs who dont mind paying the money to bowl a tour for the experience and might get hot and do well, make a show, or win.
The average amateur can make so much more money at mega buck tourneys and league, why donate your money to the pros to whom they are trying to keep on tour. We've had this discussion many time before on this site. You have to open the tour to everyone who qualifies and you have to travel. Travel builds popularity. Popularity gets sponsors. May not be a popular decision with the players but thats what needs to happen.
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While the PBA has poured tens of millions of dollars into the tour, they have also made it as hard as possible to incorporate new bowlers into tour. The regional tours are all centered around key areas instead of spread across the "region" making it hard for guys who arent in the region to travel and compete. And even if one were to travel, they'd have to win it or come close in order to turn a profit. The PBA has been so worried about anointing young stars and protecting the tour from amateurs that theyve left a bad taste in the mouth amateurs who dont mind paying the money to bowl a tour for the experience and might get hot and do well, make a show, or win.
The average amateur can make so much more money at mega buck tourneys and league, why donate your money to the pros to whom they are trying to keep on tour. We've had this discussion many time before on this site. You have to open the tour to everyone who qualifies and you have to travel. Travel builds popularity. Popularity gets sponsors. May not be a popular decision with the players but thats what needs to happen.
In other words, â€good ole boys clubâ€.
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You wanna bowl the Tour -- not Regionals -- join the PBA. Tour now is open to all members. No mire exempt. And non-members have lots of opps. U want more join.
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Bowlings biggest issue is being a sport where non-professionals can make as much or more than pros.
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Good ole boys club??? Maybe,..... maybe. Doesnt change the fact that whether it be lumber liquidators, dennys, or lucky 13's motor oil (made that up), the PBA need sponsors and in order to do that, they need to build popularity. A move to a better time slot so as not to compete with the NFL or NBA on sundays or a day change in general wouldnt hurt. I dont know just spit balling ideas. Also doesnt change the fact the PBA is regressing and "outsourcing" the tour doesnt help. Atleast not getting sponsors in the states.
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I have read every post and the article the post was about and no matter how you shake it, it boils down to one thing and that the sport as a whole is in trouble. I definitely think the TV time slot needs to move from competing with the NFL and the tour needs more US stops, more entries allowed without the strict exemptions, and less money spent on the finals being in arenas/stadiums/outside on the street etc. Put the finals back in the centers because that is where the entire tournament was held....why should the finals be any different. You never see the PGA tour change course for the final round?
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Right now, the PBA is throwing poop against the wall, hoping something sticks. Great business model.
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Right now, the PBA is throwing poop against the wall, hoping something sticks. Great business model.
I agree very much. Bowling is more popular in places like Japan ect then the U.S. by a long shot. Still there are a lot of youth bowlers on the rise thanks to high school bowling. Here is your new untapped market of fans/viewers. Why wouldnt you want to take the PBA Tour to the major U.S. cities like you once did and get these new viewers at your events. Let them be able to experience what fans of any other sport can see, the real product in person. It was a huge deal to me when I was a teenager and got into bowling and will be for many others.
It is really that simple. You have a growth in youth similar to what golf had, we see what the USGA did to take advantage of that is the USBC and the PBA smart enough to do the same???
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Right now, the PBA is throwing poop against the wall, hoping something sticks. Great business model.
I agree very much. Bowling is more popular in places like Japan ect then the U.S. by a long shot. Still there are a lot of youth bowlers on the rise thanks to high school bowling. Here is your new untapped market of fans/viewers. Why wouldnt you want to take the PBA Tour to the major U.S. cities like you once did and get these new viewers at your events. Let them be able to experience what fans of any other sport can see, the real product in person. It was a huge deal to me when I was a teenager and got into bowling and will be for many others.
It is really that simple. You have a growth in youth similar to what golf had, we see what the USGA did to take advantage of that is the USBC and the PBA smart enough to do the same???
I have a great idea, lets hold a large portion of events in Las Vegas & others in Dubai, Qatar, Finland, and Japan. And for good measure, lets hold a few events at that junkyard Thunderbowl in Michigan so our fans think we care by having a stop in Americas heartland.
Oh, whats that? The PBA is already doing this? Umm............yeah.
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The PBA is in dire straits because of YEARS of poor management........this didn't happen overnight.
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DON is correct that this didn't happen over night. Bowling as a whole (especially in my area) has been dropping the ball when it comes to youth bowling over the last 10yrs. It is really starting to significantly hurt the adult leagues in the area now because there is no one to replace bowlers who are retiring from the leagues. When I was young, roughly 25yrs ago, my parents ran the youth bowling leagues at AMF Dundalk(back then it was Fair Lanes Dundalk and its nickname was "the Old Colt Lanes" because of the Baltimore Colt players would frequent there) and there was two shifts for the kids, a 9:00am and 12:00pm. It was necessary because the both shifts filled all 48 lanes with teams of 3-5 bowlers depending on age. I recently inquired about the youth leagues for my children and it just so happen the youth leagues were going on while we were there. I didn't recognize it because the league was on 2 pair of lanes with all ages together. Very depressing to see!!!
Bowling as a whole, the PBA, and the USBC needs to invest more time, energy, and money into youth bowling instead of all the technology that the majority of regular league bowlers are not that in to. Let the ball manufacturers do that.
This will never happen I know but I have an idea that I think would bring costs down across the sport and also generate more revenue for the centers and bring more people in. Bowling centers should be separated into 2 categories, Sport bowling and Recreational Bowling. Leagues would carry one of these labels and their would be a separate rules pertaining to equipment. In Recreational Leagues, the low volume oil patterns that were used in the 80's would be put down to save the centers expense allowing linage to be lowered. However in these leagues only non-tech equipment could be used like polyester, rubber, and maybe urethane. In the Sport Leagues, a sport oil pattern would be selected in the initial league meeting to be used all season allowing bowlers to select the difficulty level. In this league any kind of equipment is allowed.
For open play the center could set up some of the lanes for Sport and the rest for Recreational. This would again save the center money on laying oil down and could bring the price of open play down, at least for those bowling on the Recreational lanes.
I am curious of the feedback I am going to get on the last part of this post and will be creating a seperate topic for it so if you are curious about it as I am look for it.
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I have to laugh at threads like this. "Woe is the PBA player." "Alas, the PBA Tour is a mere shadow of itself, blah, blah, blah". You know who we don't hear from? The chicken bleep Tour members themselves. The guys who won't put their names to a story telling their outrage at the schedule. The same guys who won't buy the Tour back from the idiots who are running it now and put their destinies in their own hands. Holy crap, there are so many young hungry marketing and production companies out there the Pros could put their own tourneys on and market them to the highest bidder. Is that CBS Sports? Fox Sports? Spike? ESPN? I don't feel sorry for them one bit and I don't lament the schedule one bit either. That's what you get when you let somebody else control your business. Most of the young stars on the PBA bowled on college teams. Did they learn anything but bowling while there?
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Riggs
nice post and some very interesting opinions.
At a quick glance just basing off of public interest, possible advertising dollars and incomes. Most Pro's that bowled outside the US in 2011-2012 didn't most make as much or more in those events than inside the US? Japan has been very good to the winners each year as it is generally among the highest paying events associated with the PBA Tour. It's not like the PBA is the first "Professional Sports Organization" to move events outside the US. The Corporate Sponsors have not found the PBA to be a good investment. The TV Networks have had a similar opinion. I just like most have complained and might see some attempts made by the PBA Ownership to gimmicks. But they have not been satisfied with the status quo and are working to grow their brand. While expanding tournaments outside the US vs. inside the US may not be convenient it may be necessary.
(These are my opinions and do not represent the opinions of Lord Field)
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Long gone daddy,
Great post. Unfortunately, I don't think anybody that matters hears you.
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Thanks, cc. Of course they don't hear. They don't care. Like everybody else does in the world, they just bitch about the predicament they don't like but do nothing to change it.
Long gone daddy,
Great post. Unfortunately, I don't think anybody that matters hears you.
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Whomever mentioned sponsers has hit the nail on the head. Unless a large sponser thinks that the PBA offers entertainment that will draw viewers that will purchase their products. Then it will go the way of Rollerderby, tiddlywinks, bow and arrow shooting and unfortunately water skiing as being a lucrative television desired sport!
Let's hope that some day a beer company thinks that bowlers drink! Again! that would be good! I would tip an extra beer a week to that and many other bowlers I'm sure would add half case a week to see bowling be a sport half as lucrative as golf! Wouldn't we?
REgards,
Luckylefty
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I also have heard a lot of complaints about tour players not wanting to take the time to do extra. Like visit with the fans, visit with proshops, do a meet and greet or things along those lines when out on tour to promote them, or their manufactures.
If you don't have PBA bowlers that want to go the extra mile to get more fans then why do we as fans want to go the extra mile for the PBA?
It isn't all pros, but I've heard it is several that act this way.
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I also have heard a lot of complaints about tour players not wanting to take the time to do extra. Like visit with the fans, visit with proshops, do a meet and greet or things along those lines when out on tour to promote them, or their manufactures.
If you don't have PBA bowlers that want to go the extra mile to get more fans then why do we as fans want to go the extra mile for the PBA?
It isn't all pros, but I've heard it is several that act this way.
Please think about what you are doing here!
By not citing any specific facts or names you in effect smear the name of every PBA Tour player.
"I've heard" a lot of things. They don't allow hearsay in courts for good reason -- it's quite often absolute garbage.
You got accusations and some facts, name them, allow them to defend themselves, and spare the innocent of collective accusation.
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This was second hand from bowl expo last year. Not saying all pros are this way but that many have this mind set that they don't have to promote themselves or their sport. Anyone that says otherwise based on their personal experiences the past few years I'm sure will come forward. How about you name all of the players you don't think this applies to and then we can go from there.
Anyone been to any of the select PBA Tour stops can probably chip in there experiences.
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Many times this "second hand" information comes from experiences while approaching members at times that are prohibited by the PBA. I assure you the bad experiences you mention are definitely the minority. This being said the shorter list would be for you to list who was responsible for the poor representation.
(These are my opinions and not those of Lord Field)
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Name calling is useless. The point is that the players need to take an aggressive active role in promoting their livelihood. They are loosing more and more each season and stand to loose the most.
On the other hand, maybe they will be better off if forced to go get a nine to five.
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All you got to do is look at the attitude of one of the PBA's biggest stars in A League of Ordinary Gentleman. The guy with the most titles ever did not want to be a part of a "fued" between him and PDW and he didn't see the need to do promoting, that the sport should speak for itself.
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If I say it or not doesn't make it true or untrue, but do you see them promoting their sport at events like bowl expo or other tournaments by talking to the proshops, bowlers ect?
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If I say it or not doesn't make it true or untrue, but do you see them promoting their sport at events like bowl expo or other tournaments by talking to the proshops, bowlers ect?
Have you ever been to Bowl Expo?
I have and yes many, many pros were very visible there working at the booths. I even did it for a time the year I was inducted into the USBC Hall of Fame and no one knows who I am LOL.
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This was second hand from bowl expo last year. Not saying all pros are this way but that many have this mind set that they don't have to promote themselves or their sport. Anyone that says otherwise based on their personal experiences the past few years I'm sure will come forward. How about you name all of the players you don't think this applies to and then we can go from there.
Anyone been to any of the select PBA Tour stops can probably chip in there experiences.
This is truly comical. You have second hand crap with no personal knowledge of any of the accusations you make.
Without second hand knowledge, you say this: "many have this mind set that they don't have to promote themselves or their sport"
I know of NO Tour players with this mindset. All the ones I know go out of their way busting their tails trying to do what they can to boost a disintegrating sport and PBA.
You offer baseless absolute garbage.
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Riggs,
Why have professional bowlers not organized internally to speak out about and address issues that effect their profession? They stand to loose the most. They need to lobby to protect thei own interest. The PBA and USBC have interst that in many ways conflict with the professional bowers' interest.
I think that is the point that the poster is trying to make.
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I don't think that is the point the poster is making at all. He is smearing the reputations of PBA players with nothing more than hearsay with ZERO sourcing.
It's absolute garbage.
And I can't speak for why there is not some sort of players' union today as I am not a touring pro and have not been since the 1980s.
There was one when I was on Tour then and it fought the PBA for additional freedom to bowl events that PBA did not organize. The players' group at that time had opportunities that PBA quite foolishly fought instead of embracing and endorsing. Not a lot of great vision in the PBA at that time -- all about protecting turf that eventually shrank after expansion opportunities were fought over. Sigh.
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Its not really fair, Mr. Riggs, that you can come on here, not name any names, basically say what you want to say with no real proof to back it up, and then jump down the throat of people when they voice their opinion doing essentially the same thing when you blog. Bad form, sir, bad form indeed. What did you do but just repeat what some unknown source told you and then you expect us to treat it as the gospel. Bloggers really are the pits.
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Long Gone .... where did Riggs come on here and not name any names with no 'real' proof to back it up? If you are a journalist, the person who you interview can request to have their name not mentioned. Which is what Riggs mentioned in his article/blog that the bowler did not want their name to be mentioned. So Mr. Riggs, keep blogging away. It's not like you are a journalist protecting your 'source'. (sarcasm off now)
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Its not really fair, Mr. Riggs, that you can come on here, not name any names, basically say what you want to say with no real proof to back it up, and then jump down the throat of people when they voice their opinion doing essentially the same thing when you blog. Bad form, sir, bad form indeed. What did you do but just repeat what some unknown source told you and then you expect us to treat it as the gospel. Bloggers really are the pits.
It is NOT essentially the same thing to come on a message board and spout HEARSAY with zero sourcing and no identifying information on anything you reference. Especially when you hide beyond an anonymous screen name and I openly identify myself.
I have been a working journalist since 1980 and have that background to stand on for credibility in what I write. People can judge me based on that track record. You don't even identify yourself. I cited my source who I spoke to directly (not second hand) and identified the person in enough detail for people to digest what that person said.
In addition, there is no generalized, negative accusation directed at the character and actions of a group of people (or even any one person) in what this bowler said.
He was merely providing his informed view of the PBA, which BTW is widely shared by many.
There is NOTHING similar about what you did on this message board and what I did in my blog.
Again, you have provided nothing more than baseless, second hand hearsay that is absolute garbage that attacks the character and reputation of every PBA touring pro.
Even if my blog was totally in error -- which it is not -- it would not change the horrid nature of your postings.
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First of all, chump, it wasn't me who posted anything about hearsay at Bowl Expo, that was Kidlost.
Secondly, big deal, you put a name to a blog you write. I don't care one bit about that, you can make anything up that you want and write it, and we have no way of knowing it is true or not. Sit down with a recorder, transcribe the conversation, identify your source. If you can't do that, what you write is nothing more than "hearsay" when you get right down to it.
Third, who the hell are you, Track fanatic? Riggs' publicist? He attacked another poster who posted things he heard at a bowling show. I thought and think it was out of line.
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My apologies for erring in confusing you and kidlost! My bad!
More important, I can not make anything up and print it. At least not if I want to keep the employer I've had for decades. You see I am a "real" journalist - an editor and reporter for Capital Newspapers (the Wisconsin State Journal and The Capital Times of Madison, WI). Our main website is Madison.com. Anyone could complain to my bosses about my blog, questioning the veracity of what I publish and I would be obligated to prove to them (my bosses) that what I report is true ... in this case that I have a message exchange with a young PBA Tour star, which I do - it is saved in my Facebook account. (No one can see it and know who it is but my bosses because I promised to protect the identity of the bowler for obvious reasons.)
My blog was for the first few years on our newspaper website Madison.com, and while it's now on its own site I still am bound by the rules of traditional journalism and ultimately must answer to my bosses as to my journalistic practices.
If you wish to question my blog in this case I will furnish you contact info for my bosses. Believe me I have 32 years in this business that I would not throw away for any story.
Also FYI when I do do interviews I always transcribe them with a recorder ... unless there is some reason for it not to be possible. Always have, always will. Want to get it RIGHT!!!!
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Adding this morning this link so you can see that when I do make an error I correct it and note that I made the correction.
http://11thframe.com/page/blog_id_5204
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Point is, you have an opinion. You write your opinion in a blog. Posters on here have opinions. They post them on here instead of a blog. Don't go off on somebody just because they say something that doesn't agree with your unnamed source. Does anybody doubt what Kidlost said. Probably not, its evident to everybody that PBA members do not go out and actively promote the PBA Tour. Do they hold clinics? Yep, when they get paid. Do they do charity events? Yep, but the fact that they are a PBA member gets forgotten very quickly. Sorry you didn't care for the message in some posts but that doesn't make the message any less valid. Now you run along and go blog away.
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Point is, you have an opinion. You write your opinion in a blog. Posters on here have opinions. They post them on here instead of a blog. Don't go off on somebody just because they say something that doesn't agree with your unnamed source. Does anybody doubt what Kidlost said. Probably not, its evident to everybody that PBA members do not go out and actively promote the PBA Tour. Do they hold clinics? Yep, when they get paid. Do they do charity events? Yep, but the fact that they are a PBA member gets forgotten very quickly. Sorry you didn't care for the message in some posts but that doesn't make the message any less valid. Now you run along and go blog away.
ROTFLMAO!
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Yeah, I'm doing the same thing. You're so full of yourself that it is hysterical. :o
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This is not about me. This is about an anonymous Internet troll who made completely unattributed accusations based on hearsay with zero evidence against PBA touring pros who bust their tails trying to scratch out a living.
And then another anonmyous Internet troll like yourself defends the guy and attacks me.
You want full of myself? I'm a United States Bowling Congress Hall of Famer who has won more than a dozen awards for my reporting/writing in 30-plus years as a working journalist. I put my name and reputation behind everything I publish and I post on message boards with full disclosure as to who I am.
Why don't you tell us who you are?
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Like I said, full of yourself. Remind me of Mighty Fish
This is not about me. This is about an anonymous Internet troll who made completely unattributed accusations based on hearsay with zero evidence against PBA touring pros who bust their tails trying to scratch out a living.
And then another anonmyous Internet troll like yourself defends the guy and attacks me.
You want full of myself? I'm a United States Bowling Congress Hall of Famer who has won more than a dozen awards for my reporting/writing in 30-plus years as a working journalist. I put my name and reputation behind everything I publish and I post on message boards with full disclosure as to who I am.
Why don't you tell us who you are?
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As I figured, like all anonymous Internet trolls = too afraid to identify yourself and stand behind your statements. Typical.
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Yeah, and as I have said of you, totally full of himself and his opinons as your last two posts have indicated. Love how you prove my point with the following post....
"This is not about me. This is about an anonymous Internet troll who made completely unattributed accusations based on hearsay with zero evidence against PBA touring pros who bust their tails trying to scratch out a living.
And then another anonmyous Internet troll like yourself defends the guy and attacks me.
You want full of myself? I'm a United States Bowling Congress Hall of Famer who has won more than a dozen awards for my reporting/writing in 30-plus years as a working journalist. I put my name and reputation behind everything I publish and I post on message boards with full disclosure as to who I am."
Who really gives two sh#ts what kind of "awards" you have? I'll put any article by the late Matt Fiorito up against what you write any day of the week. Fact is, and will always be, Kidlost posted something that he had heard at a trade show that validates what a lot of people already think of the Tour members. Perhaps you know of some secret plans they have to barnstorm the country and tout the Tour stops and WSOB, but I doubt it. Like I said, go run along and do your little blogging thing. Its been at least twenty minutes since you last patted yourself on the back and told yourself how great you are.
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ROTFLMAO!!!!
Anonymous Internet troll strikes again.
I hide behind my screen name and refuse to put my name to anything I say.
Perhaps if you were as awesome as me, you would have the courage to identify yourself :D :D :D
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BTW, I knew Matt and talked shop with him from time to time. A great man! RIP!
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Tough Crowd. Maybe if you starred in a commercial promoting a bowling center, you're blog would be more "credible." I'm with you Riggs, as a fellow Journalism/Public Communications Grad, there is a pretty high ethical standard to reporting. When you put your real name out there, you can't make stuff up. By the way, when are they sending out USBC checks. LOL!
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Andy, nobody was being "tough" on Riggs until he exploded when somebody mentioned things they overheard at Bowl Expo. People can do that on here. We don't need to put our names to put it. Its no different if somebody says they hear that a ball company is coming out with so and so. No proof is needed. No verification of sources is needed. The truth comes out when said ball is introduced or not. A little more humility and an apology to the poster he railed would help Mr. Riggs' cause. Last thing I'm saying on the matter.
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I have to laugh at threads like this. "Woe is the PBA player." "Alas, the PBA Tour is a mere shadow of itself, blah, blah, blah". You know who we don't hear from? The chicken bleep Tour members themselves. The guys who won't put their names to a story telling their outrage at the schedule. The same guys who won't buy the Tour back from the idiots who are running it now and put their destinies in their own hands. Holy crap, there are so many young hungry marketing and production companies out there the Pros could put their own tourneys on and market them to the highest bidder. Is that CBS Sports? Fox Sports? Spike? ESPN? I don't feel sorry for them one bit and I don't lament the schedule one bit either. That's what you get when you let somebody else control your business. Most of the young stars on the PBA bowled on college teams. Did they learn anything but bowling while there?
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Riggs why are you waisting your time arguing with "Long Gone".
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It was NOT overheard at Bowl Expo. It was claimed to be "second hand" from someone who supposedly was at Bowl Expo.
If true and someone with credibility wished to make actual accusations about Tour players who are doing the Tour and the sport wrong, I'd write that story! And give the actual person accused a chance to defend themselves.
Second hand hearsay of a general nature merely besmirches the reputations of every Tour player ... and those guys have tough enough lives and from everything I know bust those tails trying to make the Tour and their lives better. Pro-ams, clinics, charitable events, etc., etc., etc. with little, if any, compensation.
I would expect that most of the anonymous tools on this forum who might make such a post would have zero knowledge of and experience at trying to bowl for a living.
Don't judge someone until you walk a mile in their shoes ... or at least have first-hand knowledge of them walking in those shoes.
This was second hand from bowl expo last year. Not saying all pros are this way but that many have this mind set that they don't have to promote themselves or their sport. Anyone that says otherwise based on their personal experiences the past few years I'm sure will come forward. How about you name all of the players you don't think this applies to and then we can go from there.
Anyone been to any of the select PBA Tour stops can probably chip in there experiences.
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Let's see here... LGD vs Riggs... Retard vs Respected... House Rat vs Professional... Going with Riggs on this one.
He has every right to question where the other information came from. Reporters (which Jeff is one, not just a blogger) have the right to keep their sources confidential. So do other people, but if you can't even recognize the source yourself as the reporting party, then keep your mouth shut. Creditability.
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It was NOT overheard at Bowl Expo. It was claimed to be "second hand" from someone who supposedly was at Bowl Expo.
If true and someone with credibility wished to make actual accusations about Tour players who are doing the Tour and the sport wrong, I'd write that story! And give the actual person accused a chance to defend themselves.
Second hand hearsay of a general nature merely besmirches the reputations of every Tour player ... and those guys have tough enough lives and from everything I know bust those tails trying to make the Tour and their lives better. Pro-ams, clinics, charitable events, etc., etc., etc. with little, if any, compensation.
I would expect that most of the anonymous tools on this forum who might make such a post would have zero knowledge of and experience at trying to bowl for a living.
Don't judge someone until you walk a mile in their shoes ... or at least have first-hand knowledge of them walking in those shoes.
This was second hand from bowl expo last year. Not saying all pros are this way but that many have this mind set that they don't have to promote themselves or their sport. Anyone that says otherwise based on their personal experiences the past few years I'm sure will come forward. How about you name all of the players you don't think this applies to and then we can go from there.
Anyone been to any of the select PBA Tour stops can probably chip in there experiences.
I was on your side Riggs before the last line of clinics etc on receiving little to no compensation. Now there are probably numerous cases where that is absolutely true. But in the couple of experiences we've had with a few pros, that isn't true at all.
Example 1 - Parker Bohn III to come to a center costs about $2500 for a full day showing. Granted this was quite a few years ago but that's quite a bit of money for an 8 hour shift.
Example 2 - Johnny Petraglia came to our center a number of years ago. The cost was our center buying (x) amount of balls from Brunswick.
Example 3 - Walter Ray - We were interested in him stopping by our center during a tour stop in our region, I don't remember the exact cost but it wasn't at all cheap.
Now i'm not arguing your initial posts about "hear say" events but these are real life stories. Do I think they should of been paid to attend these clinics? Absolutely, but $2500 is tough to swallow for a 6-8 hour event.
Other than that I fully agree with you about this other character's comments.
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I get your point Storm ... but ...
Keep in mind that you are talking Hall of Famers here. What do you think it costs to have a gold HOFer come to your course, or a football/baseball/hoops HOFer come to an event? LOL. Not that bowling is those sports.
And what do you think the run of the mill Tour player gets? It's not anywhere near what those guys get!
I did stuff when I was on Tour and still do today for nothing. Granted I was a Tour hack but I am a USBC Hall of Famer now -- if that means anything LOL. And one center opening I did when I was on Tour Pete Weber did for $500 and transportation costs and he was the best then.
I spoke to an Illinois High School banquet and the Sheboygan Hall of Fame for free this year. (Sheboygan did later send me a gift card for gas.) All about giving back cuz I've gotten so much from the game ... and I don't bowl for a living as the Tour guys do so it's easier for me to do that I think.
These guys bowl for their jobs. What do you think a Hall of Famer should get paid for a day of work (non-charity).
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I get your point Storm ... but ...
Keep in mind that you are talking Hall of Famers here. What do you think it costs to have a gold HOFer come to your course, or a football/baseball/hoops HOFer come to an event? LOL. Not that bowling is those sports.
And what do you think the run of the mill Tour player gets? It's not anywhere near what those guys get!
I did stuff when I was on Tour and still do today for nothing. Granted I was a Tour hack but I am a USBC Hall of Famer now -- if that means anything LOL. And one center opening I did when I was on Tour Pete Weber did for $500 and transportation costs and he was the best then.
I spoke to an Illinois High School banquet and the Sheboygan Hall of Fame for free this year. (Sheboygan did later send me a gift card for gas.) All about giving back cuz I've gotten so much from the game ... and I don't bowl for a living as the Tour guys do so it's easier for me to do that I think.
These guys bowl for their jobs. What do you think a Hall of Famer should get paid for a day of work (non-charity).
Don't get me wrong these guys deserve compensation for their time, but like you stated they aren't football, baseball, golf, etc players though I wish they were paid like said sports.
I was simply expressing my experiences on the subject from first hand knowledge, unlike other people on this thread. I have a ton of respect for your accomplishments and I also agree with just about everything you have posted.
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And I am not disagreeing with what you posted!
Just wondering what is "fair" ... which is impossible to really say.
Tough for bowling centers/people to afford much for such events in these tough times ... but who wouldn't like to see the very best get compensated well for their supreme efforts?
It is just sad to see what has happened to bowling and the PBA.
And I hate it when the people blame the players - I know what it's like to be one and I know how hard most of these guys bust their tails for so little AND how much they care and give back.
Heck many work "real" jobs when not bowling just to pay the bills.
And anonymous message board trolls have the gall to bust on all of them (by using a general statement) with some supposed garbage they heard second hand.
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It was NOT overheard at Bowl Expo. It was claimed to be "second hand" from someone who supposedly was at Bowl Expo.
If true and someone with credibility wished to make actual accusations about Tour players who are doing the Tour and the sport wrong, I'd write that story! And give the actual person accused a chance to defend themselves.
Second hand hearsay of a general nature merely besmirches the reputations of every Tour player ... and those guys have tough enough lives and from everything I know bust those tails trying to make the Tour and their lives better. Pro-ams, clinics, charitable events, etc., etc., etc. with little, if any, compensation.
I would expect that most of the anonymous tools on this forum who might make such a post would have zero knowledge of and experience at trying to bowl for a living.
Don't judge someone until you walk a mile in their shoes ... or at least have first-hand knowledge of them walking in those shoes.
This was second hand from bowl expo last year. Not saying all pros are this way but that many have this mind set that they don't have to promote themselves or their sport. Anyone that says otherwise based on their personal experiences the past few years I'm sure will come forward. How about you name all of the players you don't think this applies to and then we can go from there.
Anyone been to any of the select PBA Tour stops can probably chip in there experiences.
I will leave it at this, when the guy who runs our proshop goes to bowl expo and comes back with this information after talking with his EBI reps I give him the benefit of the doubt. I didn't ask names, I didn't plan on publishing a story because I honestly don't care one way or another. The PBA tour doesn't tour and it is between the company and the paid bowlers as to how they want to handle their business. Maybe the EBI rep hates some of their staff players, maybe not. I have heard similar stories about Chris Barnes years ago when he was with Brunswick. Once again, I could care less if they do or not because I know for a fact looking at their tour schedule they aren't coming to my town or probably 99% of any others that are on here. I'd hope if they did at any of their stops they would do what they can to promote a good image(a given) and talk with the fans, and the proshop workers and ect. But from what the rep was saying to the local owner was they think that is below them to talk with proshops and employees ect just on general product and any thing else sales related and choose not to. I guess many feel their bowling is enough to promote the product. I;m not referring to going out to random centers to start talking to people and proshops. This is in reference to places they are bowling and being asked to talk with the local shops ect about sales and product. Yes they should be paid if they are being brought in to do clinics and other things of the nature.
Eventually they all better get jobs at USBC because when the PBA is all but dead here in the states it will be that or falling back on other real jobs. For every stuck up pro I'd hope there is at least three Jeff Carters out there. I had seen the womens tour several times and they were every bit as nice and great at promotions when they visited.
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Kidlost, thanks for the additional info. And that is sad if it is true. Perhaps it is because I have mostly experience with Storm/Roto staff but I've not seen this (or heard it). I've seen more guys like Jeff Carter (glad to hear you think highly of him - we agree there) doing a lot of great interactions.
Also I somewhat misunderstood in that you seem to be referring more to pro shop biz interaction here and I was thinking more of fan/pro-am/clinic stuff. I can hardly think of any guys I saw in all my years as a PBA member who improperly treated a fan, although it HAS happened, guys are human!
And with what you said here, there is enough info to not paint all guys with the same brush and to give the potential guys/company involved to defend themselves.
Thanks!
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You stay classy, Impending Doom. What a surprise that you took the opposite side of an issue I am on. Wow, didn't see that coming at all ::) Its a moderated forum or I'd tell you what you could to yourself but I'm sure you've been told by so many people you can figure it out. :o
As far as our "professional journalist" goes, you keep splitting hairs to justify your position that you're the only one that can blog anything about the tour if that's what it takes in your head to justity your existence. Just keep telling yourself that you truly are great ::)
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And, what seems to have been lost in this whole gaggle^%#*, was the original blog. How the hell can we maturely discuss what's "wrong" with the PBA, when can't even do so without some contest about who has the bigger *&$^...
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Yes riggs I'm certainly not referring to the tour players with fans interaction or what ever they choose to do. The rep was referring to getting them to promote sales more and talk with shop guys when they are out on tour. Which I think would be awesome even if for only 15-30mins.
In reference to the original topic of "saving the tour" we have kicked the horse to death on here to no end. Part of it is because we all have a lot of passion of seeing it succeed even if our opinions differ on how. There have been a ton of great ideas mentioned but we all know it isn't our business and we can only talk about it. Most people mention how strictly the PBA runs there forum and how quick they are to delete post and people. So I don't see that as being a option either.
I literally just got home from an eating pizza at a local joint that had 10-12 tvs all on different ESPN networks and the one closest to us had the PBA shootout going. My wife sees me look up and rolls her eyes. I don't say anything and she starts watching as well. Three shots in, she ask why are they only throwing one ball, and I explain. She says "wow that is stupid" and never looks up again. I'm the only one in a full wide open restaurant watching and I looked around often to see if anyone else ever did.
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kidlost, totally agree with ya on the Summer Shootout this year! Formats are something you can talk about FOREVER -- and I've been in a few of those discussions over the years LOL -- but I don't know anyone who checked out the Summer Shootout that liked the 1-ball thing. Sigh.
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And, what seems to have been lost in this whole gaggle^%#*, was the original blog. How the hell can we maturely discuss what's "wrong" with the PBA, when can't even do so without some contest about who has the bigger *&$^...
This is what I was thinking as I was reading the latest post.
Riggs, being a reporter you surely understand that everyone has a right to state their opinion. Some opinions may be well founded some may not. Some hearsay may turn out to be accurate. I don't think that any of the posters claim to be journalist. So why not rationally discredit what you disagree with in the post rather than assailing the poster's right to say it?
Also, why not give the rest of us credit for being able to draw rational conclusions about what is posted. Why would you assume that we would think that the op was referring to all professional bowlers. Sure, he made a general accusation but I think we most of us understood that he was not criticizing all pro bowlers.
Last LGD makes a valid point about the pro's stepping up. I can not recall any of them saying much to address what is mostly their own problem. The one that you quote is unwilling to speak out publicly. The pros have not organized to do anything to promote their position with the PBA or promote the sport.
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CC, my prior posts already answer all these questions.
Everyone has a right to an opinion and everyone else has a right to disagree with someone on that opinion, which is what I did.
I wanted kidlost to post more than a general statement that besmirches the reputation of EVERY PBA pro because it did nothing to specify the who. When he provided that info my reason for criticizing ceased to exist and we discussed it.
And I noted LGD's point may have validity today and then gave some historical background as to what the Touring Pros group (that I was a part of) did to fight for their rights back in the 1980s.
It's worth pointing out that a lot of what goes on behind the scenes many people know nothing of ... meaning when you assume nothing is being done it's not necessarily true.
There have been plenty of guys through the years who have publically criticized the PBA, notably Mike Devaney and Ryan Shafer to name two. If you've missed that you're not paying attention very well. Spend some time on Facebook and you will see a lot of that sort of thing.
The guy who contacted me is just a young rising star and he is fearful of what taking a public stand might do to his future. You can criticize him for that but it doesn't change his message.
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I also have heard a lot of complaints about tour players not wanting to take the time to do extra. Like visit with the fans, visit with proshops, do a meet and greet or things along those lines when out on tour to promote them, or their manufactures.
If you don't have PBA bowlers that want to go the extra mile to get more fans then why do we as fans want to go the extra mile for the PBA?
It isn't all pros, but I've heard it is several that act this way.
Please think about what you are doing here!
By not citing any specific facts or names you in effect smear the name of every PBA Tour player.
"I've heard" a lot of things. They don't allow hearsay in courts for good reason -- it's quite often absolute garbage.
You got accusations and some facts, name them, allow them to defend themselves, and spare the innocent of collective accusation.
This was my first reaction to Kidlost - nowhere in this did I assail his right to have an opinion. I asked him to think about what he was doing and provide specifics if he could.
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One thing that was suggested was having the players buy the Tour. This is LAUGHABLE. Like these guys have the money to buy the Tour. ROTFLMAO! The owners lost tens of millions and they aren't selling the PBA brand for thousands.
And bidding from other TV networks? That would be awesome if there were any networks interested in paying to air the PBA. If anyone knows of one, I am sure Seattle would love to be introduced.
The player-run PBA was headed to death by bankruptcy when the tech guys stepped in and bought it. That model was tried and failed.
The question is finding the model that WILL work - if one exists.
One idea I like is BPAA owning PBA, hiring good people to run it and market it who are then able to sell the entire industry to sponsors: pros, bowling center access for their products, league bowlers (BPAA & USBC are partners these days), and open bowlers.
That package might interest some big-time sponsors.
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Yeah, as LAUGHABLE as Eddie Elias talking 33 bowlers into giving him $50 each and forming the PBA in 1958. Yeah, let it go on the way it has, keep waiting for that knight in shining armor to rescue it instead of going out and finding sponsors on your own, holding your own tournaments, producing your own shows, and finding a network willing to pay to put your show on. Can people make a full time living while starting over? Who knows? The Tour is part-time now with part-time money. They can't do any worse and they can probably do a hell of a lot better. You should help them out, blogger, think of all the stories that can be written as the fledging player owned PBA gets off the ground.
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What is LAUGHABLE is the BPAA running the PBA. You got to be kidding me, are you trying to be PC about this Riggs, or do you seriously believe this? I think anyone who thinks the BPAA does a good job is nuts.
You can't seriously think the BPAA does a good job at anything they do?
The PBA is not run right now, it would be a complete circus if the BPAA was involved.
I have zero faith in any of the alphabet organizations when it comes to promotion, growth and spending of funds.
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What is LAUGHABLE is the BPAA running the PBA. You got to be kidding me, are you trying to be PC about this Riggs, or do you seriously believe this? I think anyone who thinks the BPAA does a good job is nuts.
You can't seriously think the BPAA does a good job at anything they do?
The PBA is not run right now, it would be a complete circus if the BPAA was involved.
I have zero faith in any of the alphabet organizations when it comes to promotion, growth and spending of funds.
No, no, no! With you on this!
Here is what I wrote:
One idea I like is BPAA owning PBA, hiring good people to run it and market it who are then able to sell the entire industry to sponsors: pros, bowling center access for their products, league bowlers (BPAA & USBC are partners these days), and open bowlers.
PLEASE NOTE the key phrase "hiring good people to run it"
Owning and running/operating are two very different things.
The factor that would perhaps appeal to sponsors that BPAA OWNERSHIP provides is access to the ENTIRE INDUSTRY at all levels -- pros, centers for product sales & promotion, leagues (through USBC) and open bowlers (at centers).
Sorry about this ... I should have been more explicit in explaining this idea (which FYI I am not taking credit for creating).
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Yeah, as LAUGHABLE as Eddie Elias talking 33 bowlers into giving him $50 each and forming the PBA in 1958. Yeah, let it go on the way it has, keep waiting for that knight in shining armor to rescue it instead of going out and finding sponsors on your own, holding your own tournaments, producing your own shows, and finding a network willing to pay to put your show on. Can people make a full time living while starting over? Who knows? The Tour is part-time now with part-time money. They can't do any worse and they can probably do a hell of a lot better. You should help them out, blogger, think of all the stories that can be written as the fledging player owned PBA gets off the ground.
Which is it? A new organization or a player-owned PBA?
New organization can't use PBA brand and doesn't have the history - which arguably is the most valuable thing PBA has right now. Good luck selling some new organization to compete against PBA.
If you want the PBA, good luck coming up with enough to buy it, then enough to run it and grow it.
And I mean good luck sincerely - I'd love to see PBA succeed anyway it can. I care about opportunities for bowlers, not who owns PBA.
Still think the most logical thing is BPAA ownership hiring a good team to operate PBA.
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Update: I have been informed/corrected that there have been extensive marketing offerings in past couple of seasons that featured both PBA and BPAA center product access/activation together ... without success. I knew BPAA and PBA were working closer together but not to the extent I was told. Can't really say more at this point but I apologize for not having that info.
Would BPAA ownership make a difference? The optimist in me wants to believe that if PBA was an actual BPAA property they would come up with the funds and the effort to make it work (with USBC league bowler access directly involved hopefully). But I must confess that I am perhaps looking at the world through rose colored glasses there.
If that is the case, it may not matter who owns or markets PBA with whatever partners ... that fits with my view that PBA's current owners and operators really don't deserve much blame for the state of the PBA in this economy ... but it also paints a dire picture of any possible comeback.
I always go back to the fact that PBA was essentially done in 2000 before it was bought and that tens of millions poured into it with a lot of interesting ideas tried by a lot of people with solid track records amounted to where we are now.
I do not believe in knights in shining armor, BTW -- heck, that is what the tech guys essentially were when they bought PBA more than a decade ago.
Sigh.
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That makes more sense then.
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The professional bowlers need to organize, form an agenda and then actively pursue a strategy.
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Nah, they need to continue on the path to irrelevancy they've been on for the last ten years and wait for the shining knight to save them. He's out there, the industry insiders say so.
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I can't believe that a fortune is not being made in bowling. After the Inaugural Proprietors Cup, I can tell you the following stats.
Friday - Senior Megabuck - 4 bowlers @ $400 - $1,440 1st Place. (Matt Gibson)
Friday evening - Ace Mitchell All-Star Team Challenge - $250/team, 14 all-star teams sponsored $10k prize fund. 42 teams, 5 per team, $5,000 to All-Star Team Champs (Team Ebonite), $5,000 to top amateur team (Get R Dun), over $30,000 in brackets
Saturday/Sunday - The Proprietors Cup - $1,100 buy in - 55 paid entries, $55,000 prize fund, Shannon Pluhowsky wins ($15,950). Tournament paid 1:5.
I bring this up because I had NO added prize for the Pro-Cup. I needed NO sponsors. It was aired on insidebowling.com for free, they had 95,000 hits on Sunday (finals) and there was NO COST to watch.
We ran satellite events all over the country, as does poker. Brandon Novak won 2nd place, $9,900, and he won his $1,100 entry at a satellite event for $65. Many will say, this tournament was on a MOD. House Shot, what good is that. Well my goal with this event is to show the 'average Joe Bowler' how good these bowlers are. They don't know 'sport' shots or why their fellow league bowlers shoot higher scores then the pros on television. The problem with bowling is 97% of bowlers don't average 220 or higher, they are not 'tournament bowlers' but everyone thinks they are educated enough in bowling to understand 'lane conditions'. Until we educate the 1.7 million league bowlers how good these pros are, nothing will ever get better!
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Make bowling a watchable sport. Then you can get money from others to invest.
Also don't put your sport up against the NFL. Not now, not ever. Fantasy football alone makes more money in one season then the PBA will see in ten years. Seriously get a different time slot.
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The Proprietors Cup sounds like a great event, but bowling for your own money is not going to save the tour. Without sponsor money added, a few will make money, most will not, and professional bowling will cease to exist.
I don't mean to disparage the event or it's organizers, but it's hardly the solution to the problem of the decline of the PBA tour.
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You people do realize that the World Tour is nothing more than a bunch of already existing tournaments that have attached the World Tour and "PBA title if you are a member" name to it right?
NOTHING has been created. Only piggy backed.
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I am a USBC Hall of Famer now
I'm only halfway through reading this thread, and I think you've mentioned that 4 times already.
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I am a USBC Hall of Famer now
I'm only halfway through reading this thread, and I think you've mentioned that 4 times already.
I only see two places he mentioned it. And the context of it being mentioned looked very reasonable to me.
Not that riggs needs me to defend him. ;D