Post by: riggs on February 27, 2012, 12:07:25 AM
What do you think?
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Post by: Russell on February 27, 2012, 08:21:03 AM
I shared the same opinion last night....couldn't agree more. Walter is an accuracy machine, but Pete just throws it so pure all of the time. He just rarely ever throws a "bad" shot when he needs it. The harder the lanes get the better he bowls. It's not just about titles won, it's about ability to close the deal. Kind of the same way Tiger Woods was before his collapse of the past couple of years. He hadn't won more than anyone, but he closed the deal like few before him. Pete is the same way...
If you could pick one person on the planet to throw a strike to save your life....who else would you want on the approach?
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Post by: stopncrank on February 27, 2012, 08:21:15 AM
Pete is such an enigma, there's no in between with him folks either love him or hate him. Statistics aside and accounting for the intangibles such as pressure situations when it counts, you simply have to put him up there. To accomplish what he has given the time lost and other stuff, is truly amazing.
Growing up watching Pete on tv, I guess I am biased, but I think he is the best period when it counts. If my life depended on someone striking, I'd want Pete throwing that shot for me. Others might have more titles, but when the money is on the line I dont think anybody today is better.
Still taking your lunch money one strike at a time....
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Post by: Maine Man on February 27, 2012, 08:22:09 AM
A very well written article riggs, and I would have to say I agree with many of the things you said, not only about Pete, but about Fagan as well. It is indeed one of the best matches I have ever seen, and I have always been a PDW fan since watching him as a kid in the mid 1980's.
He certainly threw his hat in the ring of the best bowlers of all time argument yesterday, and my personal feeling is that if he eclipses Earl Anthony's record of 10 majors (or even possibly if he ties it), no matter how many career titles he ends with, that will seal it for me, Pete will then be considered the greatest bowler (PBA or otherwise) of all time. Right now, it's certainly a great debate until the next major rolls around!
James G.
"Ballplayers are not born great. They're not born great hitters or pitchers or managers, and luck isn't a big factor. No one has come up with a substitute for hard work." - Ted Williams
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Post by: themachine300 on February 27, 2012, 09:06:12 AM
Doesn't Weber have the all time regional title record with like 40+ wins?
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Move left, hook it more.....
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Post by: themagician on February 27, 2012, 09:17:25 AM
He sure does.
Post by: Monster Pike on February 27, 2012, 09:32:28 AM
Post by: titletowncards on February 27, 2012, 10:03:10 AM
Definitely in the discussion. I've always said he has the best swing of anyone I've ever seen. A touring pro for 32 Years! and he just wins the hardest tournament the sport has. Unbelievable.......
Chris Orgeman 
Get MOTIVated and Bowl Up A Storm!
Post by: completebowler on February 27, 2012, 10:38:00 AM
Great article Riggs. And thanks for the link...my DVR cut the show off after Pete threw his 9th frame.
I think one thing that could be argued in Pete's favor too is his ancestry. It had to be easy in some terms coming up as Dick Weber's kid...but there had to be a lot of down side to it too. It is tough living in the shadow of such a great bowler. It ican tough at times being in an industry with a last name that is so well known.
Pete has earned his spot at the table of bowling greats. Unbelievable performance yesterday...glad I was a witness to it.
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Post by: Spider Man on February 27, 2012, 10:54:48 AM
+1. And Pete showed you don't need to throw 30 mph for a spare, to be considered great.
Post by: strikeking on February 27, 2012, 11:09:08 AM
Weber is the Greatest Jerk of all time. His "crotch chop", his inter-action with the fans and his "in your face" with other bowlers is unacceptable. I could see Carmen Salvino sitting hter cringing. No wonder the PBA is in decline.
Strikeking
Post by: Good Times Good Times on February 27, 2012, 11:18:27 AM
"The harder they get, the better he gets"
Is there any greater way to show respect to another bowler than that? I can think of few compliments greater than that.
5 US opens....man.
GetOffMe10Pin
"Whether you think that you can, or that you can't, you are usually right"
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- Henry Ford
Edited by Good Times Good Times on 2/27/2012 at 12:20 PM
Post by: TDC57 on February 27, 2012, 01:37:30 PM
Post by: trackfiend on February 27, 2012, 01:47:22 PM
Post by: 230-n-up-or-bust on February 27, 2012, 01:48:22 PM
Help control the population of Avenging Unicorns. Arm yourselves accordingly.
"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous."-Nick Faldo
"I'm as frustrated as a mosquito in a mannequin factory."-Larry The Cable Guy
Edited by 230-n-up-or-bust on 2/27/2012 at 3:18 PM
Post by: On Fire on February 27, 2012, 02:15:30 PM
Post by: DON DRAPER on February 27, 2012, 02:30:32 PM
Post by: Pinbuster on February 27, 2012, 02:53:16 PM
Pete is probably the greatest talent ever.
But I can't root for him, his dad was a great ambassador of bowling and Pete was anything but.
His drug use is well known. I personally saw him get so drunk at a team challenge event in the 90's that they made him leave and put in a sub.
The last 10 or 15 years he has been a basket case on TV. He always seemed to throw a bad shot or two in match somewhere and/or get a bad break and would mentally melt down.
And remember that Del Ballard gave him one of his open wins with a gutter on the fill ball.
Also I believe his Dad Dick won the BPAA all-star (The predecessor to the Open) 5 times.
Post by: Monster Pike on February 27, 2012, 03:01:30 PM
What? Maybe the last yr. or 2 he had some problems on TV, but so did a lot of guys... Nobody wins them all... He had a great run there for awhile... Maybe it's because so many have been spoiled by seeing him winning yr. in & yr. out that they get these crazy ideas in their head that he's been bad for 10-15 years... LMFAO!!
His dad won it 4 times... He's now won it 5 times, which is the record... Holy cow, you need a new bowling info finder...
Edited by Monster Pike on 2/27/2012 at 4:02 PM
Post by: Pinbuster on February 27, 2012, 03:16:09 PM
I'll admit to the error on the BPAA although it seemed that AMF had a Dick Weber 5-star ball that I thought stood for his 5 all-star wins.
While I believe Pete got robbed of a player of the year in 80's he has never been elected as player of the year in tby the PBA.
I'll stand on his TV record the last decade or so. Maybe even going back to the start of the resin era that he had a lot of trouble adjusting to.
Post by: Track_Fanatic on February 27, 2012, 04:02:17 PM
Post by: kidlost2000 on February 27, 2012, 04:58:47 PM
If you want to be the greatest of all time you better have the most titles.
WRWJr doesn't have that issue to worry about.
"1 of 1."
Post by: completebowler on February 27, 2012, 05:06:02 PM
Well you can stand by your OPINION of his performance on TV the last 10-15 years if you like but it doesn't equate with the facts. His last 5 years haven't been quite up to his previous standard and yet he has won the US Open twice in that span.
I think I could settle for that as a sub par stretch...lol.
ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
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WALLED LAKE MI
Post by: Sunshine n Lollipops on February 27, 2012, 05:11:37 PM
Lame. That's all you can say. Lame. Would that be the Carmen Salvino in the famous picture of him in the air, both feet off the ground. Salvino was a fierce competitor and not afraid to get in an opponents face. Man's game!
Don't believe in the Uzi, it just went off in my hand. I, I believe in love.
Edited by Sunshine n Lollipops on 2/27/2012 at 6:15 PM
Post by: glssmn2001 on February 27, 2012, 05:19:51 PM
Post by: Stan on February 27, 2012, 05:26:38 PM
When was the last time they bowled against each other on TV ? This had to be many years ago.
Post by: TDC57 on February 27, 2012, 07:06:39 PM
-1 to trackfiend
Post by: rvmark on February 27, 2012, 08:01:53 PM
IMO no.
Mark
Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on February 27, 2012, 08:54:47 PM
Del Ballard's gutter ball vs. Pete was the 1991 Fair Lanes Open
Pete earned every single one of those 5 US Open titles.
If your going to argue about the guy, at least get all of the facts in order. Get the facts straight before you go all out with the posts.
Edited by Xx 12 X 300 xX on 2/27/2012 at 10:00 PM
Post by: DON DRAPER on February 27, 2012, 10:15:02 PM
Post by: tommyboy74 on February 27, 2012, 11:24:50 PM
My Arsenal (as of February 2012)
Heavy Oil: Roto Grip Defiant: 3000 AB
Medium-Heavy Oil: Track 919C: 3000 AB
Medium-Heavy Oil: Ebonite Vital Energy: 4000 AB
Medium Oil: Hammer Brick: 2000 polished
Heavy Oil: Roto Grip Defiant: 3000 AB
Medium-Heavy Oil: Track 919C: 3000 AB
Medium-Heavy Oil: Ebonite Vital Energy: 4000 AB
Medium Oil: Hammer Brick: 2000 polished
Medium-Light Oil: Track 505T: 4000 AB
Post by: John D Davis on February 28, 2012, 02:10:02 AM
Heres some good questions for you guys... have you ever seen Pete Webber throw it 19-20 Miles an hour up 5 and take his hand out of the ball? Have you ever seen Walter Ray loft the left gutter and play the 6th arrow??? Walter Ray is the """"""ONLY""""""" one that has mastered hand releases in his touring span. There is a few other ones like Chris Barnes that has devolped many releases as well, and the list could go on for that matter. But I have watched alot of the tour and you will never see Pete Webber play the angles that Walter can in the back part of the lane. Norm Duke of course will be second on the list of the greatest bowlers in the game. He too have mastered multiple releases. I have seen Norm and Walter both Wheeling the ball inside the 6th arrow just like some of the other players like Webber,Fagan,so on.
NOTE: If bowling ball technology hadn't developedso much in the past 5-7 years, Walter Ray probably would have 20-30 more titles than he does today. That has been the only thing keeping Walter Ray from not winning more today, and you can take that one to the bank..............
Post by: Sunshine n Lollipops on February 28, 2012, 05:20:52 AM
It really depends if you value total victories more than number of majors. I always thought that PDW was a total tool that got a special exemption to bowl on Tour before he was eighteen because of who his Dad was. Substance abuser who wasted some prime years of his career being high all the time. But, he was able to get his life together, turn it around, and this guy thinks he might be the best of all time. If you haven't seen it, rent A League of Ordinary Gentlemen and see how PDW helped save the PBA (by their design) as well as some honest behind the scenes look at him off the lanes where he shows he's no different than anybody's next door neighbor.
To Mr. Davis: Your Top Two bowlers were two of the pros most aided by the advent of reactive resin balls. PDW never needed resin to be able to hook the lane and carry the ten pin out.
Don't believe in the Uzi, it just went off in my hand. I, I believe in love.
Post by: Cobalt Bomb on February 28, 2012, 05:50:20 AM
John, I have to agree with S&L on this one; WRW was a good, above average pro in the mid-late 80's. As soon as resin balls were widely introduced, his career took off. They allowed straight players like him and Duke to rise to the lofty stature they now enjoy. I don't mean to take anything away from WRW, but PDW was Hall of Fame caliber with plastic, urethane and resin.
Post by: Stan on February 28, 2012, 06:54:52 AM
John, I tend to disagree.
I think the new and more powerful equipment has helped Walter. If you remember, when these "hook in the box" balls first came out, all the guys with the stronger releases had to re-create themselves. It took Weber awhile to get back on track where Walter just took off.
I don not have the numbers, but I am sure someone does, but it would be interesting to see to total of titles for PDW and Walter pre resin days vs current days.
Post by: riggs on February 28, 2012, 07:03:13 AM
I believe numbers are this:
Pre-resin, Walter Ray won 6 titles in 8 years and then resin on he won 41 titles in 17 years.
Pre-resin, Weber had 18 titles in 13 years and then resin on he has 18 titles in 18 years.
And Weber HAS WON firing it hard up the outside. Not many times but it's a complete lie to say that he doesn't have a huge amount of versatility in his physical game.
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Post by: stopncrank on February 28, 2012, 07:23:46 AM
Just a few years ago on tv, Pete went from playing inside of 20 to playing the ditch between commercial breaks and won the tournament. Anybody that says Pete can't play out is just as crazy as folks who say WRW cant play in.
I could also come back and say, well how many titles has WRW won playing left of 10? You dont get to where either one of them are without being able to play anywhere.
Still taking your lunch money one strike at a time....
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Post by: tburky on February 28, 2012, 08:11:32 AM
Have to disagree with you on this one. During urethane weber played up 5 and was pretty good at it. In fact I have seen him play up 5 with resin and speed and was good at it. Weber is best at slow hooking it when the opportunity arises.
Post by: 230-n-up-or-bust on February 28, 2012, 08:32:23 AM
Help control the population of Avenging Unicorns. Arm yourselves accordingly.
"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous."-Nick Faldo
"I'm as frustrated as a mosquito in a mannequin factory."-Larry The Cable Guy
Post by: rb27 on February 28, 2012, 09:16:11 AM
Watched PDW play up the ditch with a yellow dot back in '92 at a PBA stop in Detroit.
String the Strikes and Fill the Frames ..... Good Bowling
Post by: greenefam on February 28, 2012, 02:51:44 PM
Post by: northface28 on February 28, 2012, 03:49:38 PM
This, without question, is the dumbest thing ive ever read on this site.
”Im a really good bowler, ask Ron”
Post by: John D Davis on February 28, 2012, 04:51:42 PM
That was so great replies guys... I stand once more corrected on my thoughts. I guess Pete may be one of the best players the tour has had. Thanks for some of you guys keeping it a discussion and not basically telling me Im stupid. I never really knew the number of titles the people had had and what years, so that really was helpful. John
Post by: morpheus on February 28, 2012, 04:56:36 PM
Thank you riggs for stating the obvious...without reactives WRW maybe wins 15 titles and retires in the 90's. Before the Crush/R was released in 1991, WRW had won exactly one title in the previous five years and I think he won seven in 1991...he must have really practiced before the tour started. By the way, how many athletes in any sport are considered very good and then become the undisputed greatest of all time in their respective sport during the second half of their career? I'll give you a hint...NONE BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAPPEN THAT WAY. That would be like Andy Roddick turning into Roger Federer next year...pretty sure Roger's records are safe because there's nothing radically changing the sport in his favor anytime soon. I'm not a fan but Pete is the most physically gifted player in the history of the game.
Edited by morpheus on 2/28/2012 at 5:57 PM
Post by: Walking E on February 28, 2012, 06:14:59 PM
Post by: soonerdallas on February 28, 2012, 06:33:49 PM
Post by: BrianCRX90 on February 28, 2012, 06:57:59 PM
Urethane... Couch was erratic with his release then and Vespi couldn't make a spare and no one could predict Smith would be a great bowler back then. If that's all it is with power then Kelly Coffman would have 20 titles with only urethane. But if we are playing "what if's", I know a good deal of history on the PBA and would guarantee if Ron Palombi didn't tear his wrist up would have 20 titles and if Ron Williams Jr decided to stay on tour could have also but we are assuming we would have not only urethane bowling balls but the same surfaces either wood or high friction synthetic surfaces. Good luck taking a urethane ball and average past 200 with today's houses of Brunswick and AMF. Can it be done now? Yes. But if it was such a huge advantage then everyone would near demand for urethane from the ball companies. While they have came back with urethane balls here or there the ones over the last 10 some years I've seen with these new urethane have failed to do anything that would demand everyone to want them but there have been a few people with new and even old school with even the new lower friction lane surfaces that have great game.
Edited by BrianCRX90 on 2/28/2012 at 7:58 PM
Post by: LuckyLefty on February 28, 2012, 08:31:06 PM
Earl! Even Walter Ray says so.
The tales of no other lefties being in the top 24 and Earl leading tournies by the 100s lead to the conclusion that he had an out of this world total package.
I love Pete's throwing too! But not a very free arm swing is it?
REgards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: MelvinBrunsTrack on March 03, 2012, 04:10:36 PM
I have read allot about Pete Weber lately. I have been watching him for years and one thing you can not take away from him. He can bowl. Now his personality , whether you like it or not. He is not phony. Personally I dont take him serious. In every sport you have your bad boys. This is no surprise. Lighten up people. Lately the telecast have been boring. I like the pete webers and sean rash and the other bad boys. They bring LIFE to the telecast.
Post by: Sunshine n Lollipops on March 03, 2012, 06:44:05 PM
What he said. Separate the persona from the actual talent, people, and recognize.
Don't believe in the Uzi, it just went off in my hand. I, I believe in love.
Post by: riggs on March 04, 2012, 08:51:28 AM
The Pete of the resin era may have the free-est armswing and cleanest release in the history of bowling. Just watch that shot to win the Open!!!!!!
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Post by: LuckyLefty on March 06, 2012, 05:15:46 PM
Riggs,
I defer to you. But is it really a Free gravity based armswing? I know it is a great open hand release!
Regards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: tburky on March 06, 2012, 05:30:57 PM
That shot was the purest shot possible for the US Open. And I agree with the weber of resin the purest swing ever!
Post by: l42a1 on March 06, 2012, 07:34:32 PM
NO
Post by: Whos Left on March 07, 2012, 01:04:04 AM
Absolutely not. The guys who have won the most tournaments are. Easy measurement.
Post by: riggs on March 07, 2012, 07:33:47 AM
As free as you can get and still have that power. It's not even close -- Pete has the free-est, cleanest game in history and he doesn't grab it at the biggest moments. I've talked to some of the best coaches and bowlers and that opinion is almost unanimous.
What is amazing is when the game was different he was clean but with the most hit of anyone in that era.
Best physical game ever. Period.
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Post by: LuckyLefty on March 07, 2012, 08:45:39 AM
Hey Riggs,
In all reality to learn the term "free" I was always told that "free" implied no pause at the top as the ball hovers in one position as Pete seems to do for a second.
I was fortunate in my first year relearning to bowl to be allowed into Dave Davis' practice group occasionally.
Now that was "Free", and fast down the lane with no effort whenever he wanted it to be. This in the time frame when he was winning a couple of Senior Majors. I have also always thought Parker Bohn was pretty "Free" in the armswing.
Note I am not saying better, just what I observed was "Free"....fast ball speed with no effort or pause at the top of the backswing. I love Pete's throwing particularly when he has his legs under him at the foul line (which he has the times I've seen him this year).
I also note the additional side roll Pete has as being very adept at playing inside...pretty nice for the US open shot that I see on TV.
REgards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: riggs on March 08, 2012, 08:15:18 AM
Free in the modern game = no grab in the downswing through release.
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Post by: TWOHAND834 on March 08, 2012, 09:03:17 AM
If we are talking about the free'est arm swing then I would think that would have to go to Fagan right now. If we are talking about cleanest release, then PDW. IMO.......Fagan could be the modern day PDW. He has the arm swing and even more power/rev rate than what PDW had in his prime and he has learned the versatility of a Norm Duke. He won the Masters playing straight up 6-7-8 and he almost won the US Open hooking 25 out to 12.
In regards to Pete being the best ever, Walter Ray has more titles. But Pete has more Majors (9 to 8). Pete has a higher winning percentage of majors in regards to overall win (25% to 17%). Pete ranks second to Walter in a number of catagories but has the most Majors. You can almost draw the same argument in regards to them as you can Walter vs Earl. It is almost like saying who is better, Tiger Woods or Jack Nicklaus? Half will say one, the other half will say the other.
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: LuckyLefty on March 08, 2012, 10:13:27 AM
Okay...If that is the new definition of "Free" = no grab in the downswing! I agree! He is great at that.
I sitll like the distinction between "Free" = no effort speed from the downswing, and "No grab in the downswing" and view them as two different things.
The soft speed Pete generated at the US Open seemed to just be perfect with his side roll for the conditions. Being very accurate and very well balanced at the foul line, tough to beat!
I love his game, and enjoyed this tournament and many others I have watched him in....including when he stuck a few weeks ago while on a roll, otherwise he might have won that one too!
His talent, competiveness, and accomplishment are undeniable. One can only imagine...
REgards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: riggs on March 08, 2012, 12:43:19 PM
I would agree that Fagan's swing is free-er than Pete's -- there is nothing but swing there. But I'd say he's not quite as clean as Pete at release, but it's not by much!
Fagan appears to be reaching a level where is in the running for best bowler in the world ... seeing what he did in the Masters and US Open back-to-back majors was pretty incredible.
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Post by: bullred on March 15, 2012, 03:14:23 AM
The u.s.open has been PDW's to win or lose for quite a few years. The lane condition has been tailored for his game for all those years
Post by: bullred on March 15, 2012, 03:19:02 AM
I would like to enter Wayne Webb in this "bestest, cleanest release" contest. If he had even a bit of sense or a decent wife or manager, his win, lost record would be up there with the best or better.
Post by: bullred on March 15, 2012, 03:28:59 AM
I would also say that Tracy's reaction to his behavior Sunday should be accepted as a condemnation of his behavior. She thought he stunk too.
Post by: riggs on March 16, 2012, 10:09:53 AM
I went to dinner with Pete and Tracy at a Regional the weekend after the Open. Tracy was trying not to start crying and her words of what was going through her mind were "He is so amazing."
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Edited by riggs on 3/16/2012 at 8:10 AM
Post by: tank38 on March 17, 2012, 10:53:07 PM
The greatest ever? Not even close. He could never beat Walter and he definitely wouldn't have touched Earl.
Post by: bowlingnut07 on March 18, 2012, 12:21:38 AM
theres no decisive answer here
but i will say hes definately in the conversation.
and to say hed never touch earl , or any of those guys from bowling's past
isnt even a fair comparison , totally dif game now then it was then.
but he without a doubt is among THE LEGENDS.. u may not like how he acts
but u have to respect what he as accomplished.
Post by: ccrider on March 18, 2012, 02:07:46 PM
To determine the greatest of all time you have to set the criteria you are using. Most money won. Most majors. Most top three finishes. Best physical game. Maybe a combination of factors weighted on a sliding scale. Otherwise it all comes down to subjective opinions about what matters most.
Those that can do. Those that can't complain. Pimpin ain't easy, but it's mandatory.
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Post by: nocarey on April 29, 2012, 06:45:03 PM
<div>I went to dinner with Pete and Tracy at a Regional the weekend after the Open. Tracy was trying not to start crying and her words of what was going through her mind were "He is so amazing."</div>
Read my 11th Frame blog at <a href="http://www.11thframe.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.11thframe.com/</a>
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<div> </div><div>Edited by riggs on 3/16/2012 at 8:10 AM</div>
I know it's always a pleasure to watch him bowl. It's even better when you're in the same tournament and have the chance to cross with him.
Post by: DON DRAPER on May 28, 2012, 07:33:53 PM