win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: Lefty vs Righty on recently finished WSOB  (Read 16630 times)

Dave81644

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1662
Lefty vs Righty on recently finished WSOB
« on: December 27, 2015, 11:13:49 AM »
I hear that a more lefty's than normal made shows and cuts this go around
with Belmo, TJ, Ronnie Russel shut out
I'm sure there was plenty of whining if this is actually the case


 

Steven

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7680
Re: Lefty vs Righty on recently finished WSOB
« Reply #46 on: January 01, 2016, 12:05:34 PM »
It's dangerous to jump into a feeding frenzy. And Bob is more than capable of speaking for himself. He generally marches to the beat of his own drummer, and I'm not going to try to get into his head. BUT…. Read again what he posted:

 
"A couple of lefties that have made the show wouldn't be in the top 5 of my Wednesday scratch league"
 
 
He didn't say his local bowlers were more skilled than the referenced WSOB guys. He may have been differentiating between the skills necessary to be successful on tour conditions vs. the THS. If so, what he said might be valid.
 
There are a lot of guys who have become experts at exploiting THS conditions. They've developed a science in their narrow world of bouncing off the dry and exploiting area with maximum results. Most of these guys run from Sport/PBA conditions because they know their limitations in playing flatter patterns. But put them in their own playpen, they can be very difficult to beat. By anyone.
 
Before anyone jumps down my throat, I know the difference between the two worlds. I bowl two high level scratch leagues. One a THS, and the other PBA/Sport. I bowl several PBA events a year. Nobody appreciates the true skill level of the accomplished PBA guys more than I do.
 
I'm just trying to provide a sane rationale for Bob's statement. Please feel free to continue...

itsallaboutme

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2005
Re: Lefty vs Righty on recently finished WSOB
« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2016, 12:19:44 PM »
The jump from a regional to the big tour is greater than the jump from league to a regional.

Steven

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7680
Re: Lefty vs Righty on recently finished WSOB
« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2016, 12:29:35 PM »
The jump from a regional to the big tour is greater than the jump from league to a regional.

 
OK…. I get that.
 
But what does that have to do with the jump from the big tour to league?
 
Again, I'm not arguing that most league guys can complete with legitimate tour guys on tour conditions. That's not going to happen.
 
But Bob was talking about how specific WSOB lefties he watched would perform against players on his turf in his specific THS Scratch league. Are you saying that couldn't happen?   

itsallaboutme

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2005
Re: Lefty vs Righty on recently finished WSOB
« Reply #49 on: January 01, 2016, 12:40:11 PM »
Yes, that's what I'm saying.  If you believe otherwise you haven't been around enough good bowlers.

LuckyLefty

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17348
Re: Lefty vs Righty on recently finished WSOB
« Reply #50 on: January 01, 2016, 01:04:11 PM »
It definitely looked like a very favorable shot for lefties!

As to lefties playing inside...a fascinating question.  There are lefties that can play inside under certain/many conditions(I am one), there are lefties that almost never can play inside, and there are lefties that can play inside often and generate their own carry!  They are few and special!

My observations.
1.  Soft speed high axis rotation lefties are often forced to play inside.  This can surprisingly work out where there is significant dry at the back of pattern like on some of the longer sport patterns or on higher friction lanes, like wood or AMF textured synthetics.  Not too good on Brunswick old original low texture synthetics usually.
2.  Many lefties with less axis rotation like Mike Scroggins play almost all the time near 5 to 12 in the heads.  It works a lot!
3.  I bowl with a few SUPER lefty throwers that are near 18 to 20 mph and good 45 degree axis rotation and 400 revs+ and they carry when they go inside nearly every surface including our low texture left side Anvilanes.   Why not on tour? I don't know!

Lastly, I bowl in a true righty paradise center by choice.  We have righties at 12 mph and 220 revs who carry inside as well as the 440 rev lefties on Brunswick non textured Anvilane.  There is an explanation.  These old lanes have so much lane bed friction at the break point only on the right that the drive is tremendous to the pocket.  This friction is missing in the lane bed on the left.  The high power lefties I talk about generate a lot of their own drive to the pocket.

There are conditions that favor righties.  Clearly there are conditions that favor lefties as stated in many of the above posts related to this years WSOB.  The answer on when lefties can play well on inside lines is frankly,  "It depends".

Regards,

Luckylefty
PS I believe most many lefties tend to have less axis rotation than righties as that is where the lanes more often favor it, as a result they often are not so great inside.
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

Steven

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7680
Re: Lefty vs Righty on recently finished WSOB
« Reply #51 on: January 01, 2016, 01:14:51 PM »
Yes, that's what I'm saying.  If you believe otherwise you haven't been around enough good bowlers.

 
If bowling on either the same pairs or right next to WRW, Duke and Bohn in multiple US Open and Masters events doesn't qualify, as well as some of the best talent in the Western Region, then guilty as charged.
 
All I'm saying is don't under estimate really good bowlers who have learned to ultimately exploit the walled conditions in their own respective houses. That's not a knock on anyone.
 
I'll give you just one example. Robert Smith, who still has most of his exemplary skills (which are still awe inspiring), does not dominate our local county THS environments. I know of few locals who would take him on for money on legitimate tour conditions -- they'd lose their lunch money. But that doesn't translate to THS league. Take it for what it's worth. 
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 01:16:43 PM by Steven »

itsallaboutme

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2005
Re: Lefty vs Righty on recently finished WSOB
« Reply #52 on: January 01, 2016, 01:49:08 PM »
Robert of today is along way from what he used to be and how long has it been since he made a show? 

His motivation was sub par when he was in his earning prime, how motivated can he be to bowl league now?

Steven

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7680
Re: Lefty vs Righty on recently finished WSOB
« Reply #53 on: January 01, 2016, 02:01:50 PM »
Robert of today is along way from what he used to be and how long has it been since he made a show? 

His motivation was sub par when he was in his earning prime, how motivated can he be to bowl league now?

Robert can still do more to a bowling ball than 99.9% of the people in the bowling world. His physical issues, as he's gotten older, have more to do with longer formats than his capabilities in bowling just a handful of games. Maybe you'd like to address him personally on your perceptions of his 'sub par' motivations.
 
Back to avabob's statement. I have no way of knowing the capabilities of the league bowlers he was referencing, or the specific WSOB bowlers he was referring to. Just read what he wrote in context. Then you can choose to believe whatever you want.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 02:05:45 PM by Steven »

JustRico

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2652
Re: Lefty vs Righty on recently finished WSOB
« Reply #54 on: January 01, 2016, 02:30:33 PM »
Trying to catch up-
Bob saying that guys that make a show on TOUR couldn't compete or more so make the top 5 in a Wednesday night league...where they bowl 3 games on the SAME pair...in the same environment EVERY week...wouldn't figure it out? Saying that guys that compete on tour, crossing lanes and bowling against the best wouldn't figure it out? And as has been mentioned...a HUGE difference between a house condition where there tends to be built in area...interesting he has made his controversial remarks and then vanished from the conversation...obviously realizing the ignorance of his remark
Anyone that has a clue about competing understands that the smart guys tend to figure out the conditions and try to take advantage of what is GIVEN not what they want...so especially on the left where the environment dictates more than the condition, ie certain angles shouldn't be surprised the successful ones played similar angles
Conditions or the environment ALWAYS dictate success or failure...take the past WSoB venues...certain styles or players tended to dominate...so they compete at the stadium where the left side tends to be favorable...
I'll say it AGAIN comparing ANY league bowlers that are MERELY league bowlers to touring pros is asinine...and thinking what you see in league in YOUR center is vindictive of real world conditions is humourous at best
Robert Smith is injured...he has fought injuries for the past few years to say the least...he had an ADVANTAGE for a lotta years but the environment caught up to him and diminished his physical advantage...the only guys that could, today, compete with a healthy Robert Smith are the guys that do not use their thumbs....very few can generate close to the power RS did
Co-author of BowlTec's END GAMES ~ A Bowler's COMPLETE Guide to Bowling; Head Games ~ the MENTAL approach to bowling (and sports) & (r)eVolve
...where knowledge creates striking results...
BowlTEc on facebook...www.iBowlTec.com

MI 2 AZ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8153
Re: Lefty vs Righty on recently finished WSOB
« Reply #55 on: January 01, 2016, 02:31:30 PM »
It's nice to see a discussion with different viewpoints.  Too many posters like to just come out and make personal attacks against those with different viewpoints because they know they are right and anyone who disagrees or sees a different situation is wrong and needs to be insulted.
_________________________________________
Six decades of league bowling and still learning.

ABC/USBC Lifetime Member since Aug 1995.

avabob

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2778
Re: Lefty vs Righty on recently finished WSOB
« Reply #56 on: January 01, 2016, 05:05:53 PM »
Wow, haven't checked this forum for a couple of days.  That's the most response I think I have ever gotten.   Two points.  First my comment was to some extent tongue in check.  Second, my comparison wasn't in support of my league mates but rather a comment on the quality I saw from a couple of guys on the show.

 I guess one other point I would make.  Going way back to the 80's no lefty on this series is as bad as at least 3 right handers who won titles in the crank to the bank 80's.  I am not a lefty basher per se.  I just saw guys who I didn't think were quality players and happened to be lefty.  Maybe I should have made a different comparison.  Anybody think those guys are in the same class as Barnes, O' Neil, Rash, Belmo. 

Ciminelli and Faulkner are tremendous players.  Parker is one of the greatest players ever from either side.  Prior to this season it is been pretty tough on lefties for a couple of years.  There are a couple of right handers who have made the show during that period who I don't consider superior talents either.  There have been a lot of one hit wonders over the years, and there always will be.   If the guys I was referring to are regularly cashing and making shows over the next 3 years I will gladly eat my words.       
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 05:11:34 PM by avabob »

JustRico

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2652
Re: Lefty vs Righty on recently finished WSOB
« Reply #57 on: January 01, 2016, 05:11:01 PM »
Funny how I've seen posts from you on other threads...
Co-author of BowlTec's END GAMES ~ A Bowler's COMPLETE Guide to Bowling; Head Games ~ the MENTAL approach to bowling (and sports) & (r)eVolve
...where knowledge creates striking results...
BowlTEc on facebook...www.iBowlTec.com

JustRico

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2652
Re: Lefty vs Righty on recently finished WSOB
« Reply #58 on: January 01, 2016, 05:18:19 PM »
I'm curious tho...where do I go to get to the point where one can criticize another's ability because I struck once?
Yes I'm being a smart a** but it really gets olde when, because someone doesn't bowl in a way others believe they should or falls into some preconceived stature that they shouldn't be able to struck ever
Too many do not comprehend that it takes more than looking a certain way...there are too many legends that were no where close to textbook...
Everybody is a dan of a certain style or look or believes what one should do to score...but don't discount another's success and call them crank to the bank or whatever...they have skills others don't obviously or...everyone would tie for first
Co-author of BowlTec's END GAMES ~ A Bowler's COMPLETE Guide to Bowling; Head Games ~ the MENTAL approach to bowling (and sports) & (r)eVolve
...where knowledge creates striking results...
BowlTEc on facebook...www.iBowlTec.com

Dave81644

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1662
Re: Lefty vs Righty on recently finished WSOB
« Reply #59 on: January 01, 2016, 05:22:24 PM »
I bowled the Pro-Am here in Milwaukee a few summers ago when the PBA was here
we had 6 "pros" rotate through for 3 games total, every 6 frames
it was a THS and a "9" pin tap for us mortals
the pros shot a natural 900
regardless of style, they hit virtually the same mark every time (each of the 6)
we had Barnes, Mika, Missy, Patrick Geradi, Eugene and Jason Sterner(Sterner won me a free ball when he shot 300 in match play)
these aren't exactly slackers by any means, but if you think these guys & gals can't measure up in a house shot, your delusional
Standing left and pitching right with 3-4 boards of miss room either way on the THS is far different than repeating shots on a sport pattern where the release, ball speed and margin of error down the lane is minimal.
no matter if it "looks" goofy or not
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 05:37:49 PM by Dave81644 »

Ken De Beasto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 472
Re: Lefty vs Righty on recently finished WSOB
« Reply #60 on: January 01, 2016, 09:27:59 PM »
Natural 900s!!! Why even go pro wen making money on house shot is where it's at.