BallReviews

General Category => PBA => Topic started by: ignitebowling on April 21, 2022, 10:26:49 AM

Title: New bowling challenge
Post by: ignitebowling on April 21, 2022, 10:26:49 AM


How long can you last listening to the above interview? I made it 32minutes this morning at work with it going in the background then tapped out.
Title: Re: New bowling challenge
Post by: Bowler19525 on April 21, 2022, 10:43:54 AM
Agree.  This is simply brutal to try and get through.  Voss essentially wants to make bowling better by getting rid of weight blocks, high performance covers, and forcing bowlers to bowl one handed and use their thumbs.  I made it about 40 minutes and then surrendered.

I also heard somewhere that Voss wants to either replace Chad Murphy or possibly start a competing bowling association.
Title: Re: New bowling challenge
Post by: ignitebowling on April 21, 2022, 10:46:54 AM
Someone will be replacing Chad. Not sure how Chad was allowed to be there and do it as long as he did. Not sure how they pick but they need to do better.
Title: Re: New bowling challenge
Post by: Bowler19525 on April 21, 2022, 01:11:29 PM
I am not sure that we need Brian Voss as the head of the USBC.  If that were to happen, and he implemented his vision for bowling, we will all be throwing polyester balls with pancake weight blocks.
Title: Re: New bowling challenge
Post by: avabob on April 21, 2022, 03:29:52 PM
The problem with Voss and others who want to do all these retro things is that they ignore what has happened to lane surfaces.  The whole revolution in balls started when the much harder urethane finishes replaced lacquer.  Nobody wanted to bowl on urethane using hard rubber or polyester unless the shot was walled.  When soft polyester became dominant it paved the way fir the power game that bowling has ultimately evolved to.
Title: Re: New bowling challenge
Post by: BowlersDad1974 on April 22, 2022, 11:00:12 AM
I listened to about 1/3 of that on the way to work today.  It really is kind of brutal, but I’ll slog through the rest of it on the way home.  Robert Smith and Brian Voss sound like a couple of old fogies reminiscing about some mythical golden age of bowling before this newfangled cheater equipment came along and ruined the sport.  Heaven forbid that a bowler dare to use their left hand, or even worse use two hands, that violates the Commandments brought down from the mountaintop when bowling was created.  “Thou shalt deliver thy ball with thy thumb inserted…”

I read Voss’ post on a lot of this same stuff from 2016, along with both Jason Belmonte’s and Chad Murphy’s responses.  Voss has a couple of good ideas rolled in – like making challenge or sport patterns more widely available to even casual bowlers that want to try them – but has several that would hurt the sport by depressing participation. 

Starting with his idea that everyone must use a thumb, this would hurt participation in bowling, especially by youth, if it was implemented.  I say this as a parent of two kids that bowl two handed.  I watch a lot of youth league and tournament bowling and see 25%+ of kids that bowl two handed.  Some are quite good, some not, but it’s a sizeable number of kids bowling without their thumb.  Suddenly telling them that they can’t bowl that way would cause most to quit the sport.  We need more kids sticking with bowling, not less for the future of the sport. 

It's not as if bowling two handed magically turns a new bowler into an elite one.  It accelerates score progression to a point, but to become really good requires patience and practice.  Being able to repeat shots is just as critical to put up big scores on harder patterns for no thumb two handers as it is for thumb-in one handed traditional bowlers. 

There’s a local coach and PSO near us who actually advocates that new bowlers with even a shred of athletic ability try out two handed because he sees it help retention.  Being able to hook the ball and hit some strikes really resonates with kids and keeps them coming back for more.  He finds that a higher percentage of kids that go two handed stick with the sport.    Kids picking up and sticking with the sport is good for bowling.

As for dumbing down coverstocks and cores to take balls back to the plastic or early urethane days, that a nonstarter.  First, from an economic viewpoint, the ball manufacturers are major sponsors of the sport.  Dumbing down the balls would hurt those companies which would in turn hurt the sport. 

Second, competitive bowlers and even casual league ones would not like that change.  Being able to hook a reactive ball and strike are a fun part of the game, even for the casual beer-league bowler.  Taking the hook out of the game and having averages plummet would for sure hurt participation in the sport.  People buy new balls and bowl in leagues because they like it way better than throwing a lane ball. 

Certainly there are things that the USBC could do better, but I just see most of Voss’ ideas as having a negative impact on bowling participation. 
Title: Re: New bowling challenge
Post by: Juggernaut on April 22, 2022, 12:50:21 PM
 I listened to the entire thing, but I’m from the same era as Mr. Voss, so I understand what he is thinking a bit better than some of the younger/newer guys.

 I went through all three eras. Rubber to polyester, polyester to urethane, and urethane to reactive resin. I’ve seen weight blocks evolve from merely weighted spots designed to balance a ball out after drilling, to dynamically engineered, gyroscopically enabled systems designed to alter and influence the balls reaction with a purpose.

 I used to argue the same points as Mr. Voss. It was my contention that bowling itself was never meant to be hard to do, just hard to perfect. The old saying about drawing in more flies with honey than vinegar is rooted in the truth, and luring more people into the bowling world is much the same. Make it sweet enough to them, and they will come to get some for themselves. In their desire to build membership, concessions were made, and scoring paces went up because of it.

 Perhaps, once upon a time, what Mr. Voss is talking about might have been possible, but I no longer believe it is.

 You cannot “go back”, because not many of us FROM back are still around. I came up in a time and an atmosphere where shooting 600 was an accomplishment, and averaging 200 or more was “for the pros”, and not something very many even thought about. I still remember the first 700 series I shot, and you would’ve thought Elvis had entered the building. There were people all around watching, and the other guys on the lane next to me just stopped and let me finish, then many came over to shake my hand, pat my back, and congratulate me on my awesome accomplishment.

 I shot a 703 that night. Won high series for the league. In fact, I have an “Award of Merit” for the highest game shot in the entire center one year. That counted every league, every game, every bowler. It was a 280 game.

 The game MUST go forward from here. Come what may, you cannot go back, because nearly all of the modern era league bowlers would feel like they were being punished, and that the move back must be punitive in some way, because it would be taking back what has already been given.

If USBC really wants to kill the game/sport, then by all means try to go back. I’ll stay, and a few old “hardheads” like me, but you will lose the VAST majority of the participants you have now, because nobody likes being punished or having their privilege taken away.
Title: Re: New bowling challenge
Post by: Bowler19525 on April 22, 2022, 01:07:36 PM
I have also seen a lot of changes in the 25+ years I have been involved in the sport.  Even 25 years ago, 300/700 was a major accomplishment.  Bowlers would stop and watch. 

Over the years, it seems as though 800 is the new major achievement that garners attention.  Otherwise, 300/700 is just another day at the lanes.

There are people who have been bowling for only 1-2 years now shooting 300 and making comments such as "it's about time!  I have been bowling for 1-2 years now and thought it would never happen!"  Seriously?

I think there definitely needs to be some sort of "reset" in bowling.  However, taking everyone back in time to polyester balls with pancake weight blocks and forcing people to bowl one handed isn't the answer.  Making conditions impossibly hard isn't the answer either.  Perhaps regulating league house shots to require more accurate shot making to get that ball reaction that people like would help level the field.  Make that reaction possible, but only if you are within 3-4 boards, not 10-12.  Conditions have simply become way too soft.  If changing the shot is too much, then perhaps make the actual pins a few ounces heavier [hit the pocket correctly and they will carry...otherwise you get what you hit.]
Title: Re: New bowling challenge
Post by: SVstar34 on April 22, 2022, 01:25:21 PM
I have also seen a lot of changes in the 25+ years I have been involved in the sport.  Even 25 years ago, 300/700 was a major accomplishment.  Bowlers would stop and watch. 

Over the years, it seems as though 800 is the new major achievement that garners attention.  Otherwise, 300/700 is just another day at the lanes.

There are people who have been bowling for only 1-2 years now shooting 300 and making comments such as "it's about time!  I have been bowling for 1-2 years now and thought it would never happen!"  Seriously?

I think there definitely needs to be some sort of "reset" in bowling.  However, taking everyone back in time to polyester balls with pancake weight blocks and forcing people to bowl one handed isn't the answer.  Making conditions impossibly hard isn't the answer either.  Perhaps regulating league house shots to require more accurate shot making to get that ball reaction that people like would help level the field.  Make that reaction possible, but only if you are within 3-4 boards, not 10-12.  Conditions have simply become way too soft.  If changing the shot is too much, then perhaps make the actual pins a few ounces heavier [hit the pocket correctly and they will carry...otherwise you get what you hit.]

For those who know what they're doing, a slightly lower ratio house shot can be a lot easier than a giant cliff. Your average league bowler would potentially drop a few pins, but nothing too major like changing to full sport.
Title: Re: New bowling challenge
Post by: ignitebowling on April 22, 2022, 03:47:11 PM
I have also seen a lot of changes in the 25+ years I have been involved in the sport.  Even 25 years ago, 300/700 was a major accomplishment.  Bowlers would stop and watch. 

Over the years, it seems as though 800 is the new major achievement that garners attention.  Otherwise, 300/700 is just another day at the lanes.

There are people who have been bowling for only 1-2 years now shooting 300 and making comments such as "it's about time!  I have been bowling for 1-2 years now and thought it would never happen!"  Seriously?

I think there definitely needs to be some sort of "reset" in bowling.  However, taking everyone back in time to polyester balls with pancake weight blocks and forcing people to bowl one handed isn't the answer.  Making conditions impossibly hard isn't the answer either.  Perhaps regulating league house shots to require more accurate shot making to get that ball reaction that people like would help level the field.  Make that reaction possible, but only if you are within 3-4 boards, not 10-12.  Conditions have simply become way too soft.  If changing the shot is too much, then perhaps make the actual pins a few ounces heavier [hit the pocket correctly and they will carry...otherwise you get what you hit.]

For those who know what they're doing, a slightly lower ratio house shot can be a lot easier than a giant cliff. Your average league bowler would potentially drop a few pins, but nothing too major like changing to full sport.

I actually disagree. I think in many cases slightly flattening the shot wouldn't lower scores/averages overall vs some of the extreme ratios we see that create such bad over under reactions. It would definitely make it easier  ;D

Every center is different but ours could certainly use a little help
Title: Re: New bowling challenge
Post by: Juggernaut on April 22, 2022, 03:50:55 PM
 A couple of years ago (back when I still cried about the past), I said I wished balls were limited to urethane covers, .030 diffs, no weight holes, 1oz weight limits (for finger, thumb, or side), and the pins were 4lb magnesium.

 I would've killed bowling, plain and simple.  I thought it would be better to see it die a hero than to live on a clown.

 I was wrong.

 Things change, they always do. That's the one constant in this world, CHANGE.

 I'm 62 yrs old. I'm not going to be that competitive much longer anyway (if I still am at all), and all of us "old hats" have either adjusted, quit, or died off by now anyway, so let it change. Let it be what the next generation of bowlers want's it to be. Just let this iteration last long enough I get all of it I want before either it, or I, am gone.
Title: Re: New bowling challenge
Post by: milorafferty on April 22, 2022, 04:11:24 PM
For all the 'old-timers' wanting bowling to go back to how it used to be, especially with no-core polyester balls, nothing is stopping you/them from doing so.


Just don't expect the rest of us to join in.
Title: Re: New bowling challenge
Post by: Juggernaut on April 22, 2022, 10:11:12 PM
For all the 'old-timers' wanting bowling to go back to how it used to be, especially with no-core polyester balls, nothing is stopping you/them from doing so.


Just don't expect the rest of us to join in.

Case in point.

 Wouldn’t bother me a bit to “go back”, but others would not want to, and would not enjoy that environment, as they would feel deprived by “the old ways”.


 I understand now, where I did not a few years ago. Let it change, let it become what the next generation of bowlers wants it to be, after all, they’re the ones who have to carry it on once all of us oldies are done and gone.
Title: Re: New bowling challenge
Post by: avabob on April 22, 2022, 10:32:11 PM
I would love to go back and will do so as soon as we go back to wood lanes with lacquer finish.  People who weren't bowling prior to 1970 have no idea what urethane lane finish did to the traditional game.  The only way it was playable was with a heavy crown or a super soft polyester ball.

Also you have to go back a lot further than 25 years to find that environment where 700 was a great series.  I knew white a few guys who already had a dozen or more 300s by 1997. 
Title: Re: New bowling challenge
Post by: bergman on April 23, 2022, 10:39:29 AM
Very true. I started bowling in the early 1960s. Wood lanes with lacquer finishes.

Prior to the start of the 1973 league season, the house I bowled in converted to urethane lane finishes (coatings). Suddenly overnight, our hard rubber/plastic balls skidded
 all the way to the pin decks. It was like bowling on oil-covered concrete. The house used a Brunswick (B-90) oil applicator back then. Averages plummeted. It got so bad that the house abandoned the B-90 and went back to hand-oiling (which only made it  worse). 

In desperation, the house cut the applicator brushes on the B-90 applicator. This allowed for less oil on the outsides. This was still illegal under the ABC rules, but many houses were desperate as more and more league bowlers began to complain.
The ABC was facing a dilemma and it wasn't until 1977 that they began relaxing the rules and started to allow houses to increase the oil crown. Immediately, averages and scores took off, aided also by the introduction of softer rubber and plastic balls
(particularly, the Brunswick LT-48 and the Columbia Yellow Dot). That was the turning point that started the high scoring revolution that continues to this day.

I mention this not as a complaint. Quite the opposite. I'm just stating history.
Back then, hook was measured in millimeters, due to the lane conditions and the equipment that existed at that time. I recall the great Don Johnson replying to his son, who was watching his dad bowl in a PBA event in an old 1967 video. His son said, "You guys really threw it straight in those days" to which Don replied, "Son, back then, we called that HOOK!"



 
Title: Re: New bowling challenge
Post by: ignitebowling on April 23, 2022, 11:02:13 AM
Very true. I started bowling in the early 1960s. Wood lanes with lacquer finishes.

Prior to the start of the 1973 league season, the house I bowled in converted to urethane lane finishes (coatings). Suddenly overnight, our hard rubber/plastic balls skidded
 all the way to the pin decks. It was like bowling on oil-covered concrete. The house used a Brunswick (B-90) oil applicator back then. Averages plummeted. It got so bad that the house abandoned the B-90 and went back to hand-oiling (which only made it  worse). 

In desperation, the house cut the applicator brushes on the B-90 applicator. This allowed for less oil on the outsides. This was still illegal under the ABC rules, but many houses were desperate as more and more league bowlers began to complain.
The ABC was facing a dilemma and it wasn't until 1977 that they began relaxing the rules and started to allow houses to increase the oil crown. Immediately, averages and scores took off, aided also by the introduction of softer rubber and plastic balls
(particularly, the Brunswick LT-48 and the Columbia Yellow Dot). That was the turning point that started the high scoring revolution that continues to this day.

I mention this not as a complaint. Quite the opposite. I'm just stating history.
Back then, hook was measured in millimeters, due to the lane conditions and the equipment that existed at that time. I recall the great Don Johnson replying to his son, who was watching his dad bowl in a PBA event in an old 1967 video. His son said, "You guys really threw it straight in those days" to which Don replied, "Son, back then, we called that HOOK!"

Great stuff. Most dont go back and look at how bowlers forms and mechanics have changed through the decades to create the power of today. Imagine guys with 450 rpm rev rate bowling during that time. Its going to create more area. In any era for that matter. If Earl Anthony started bowling in this era hou can bet he would have over 400rpms and he would be hard to beat on tour today or in any era.
Title: Re: New bowling challenge
Post by: avabob on April 23, 2022, 01:43:48 PM
Absolutely fantastic post Bergman.  Actually ABC was still mandating flat oil until after 1980.  Most local secretaries didn't enforce it on award scores unless they were blocked off the corner.  I had my first 2 300 games 1976 and 77 with a hard caramel on a dead wall.  Local small town secretaries weren't going to enforce the bad rule.  Wearing my 300 ring from 1976 as I post this
Title: Re: New bowling challenge
Post by: bowling4burgers on April 25, 2022, 07:52:33 AM
They tried this with "Vintage Class" and "Super Class" in disc golf/Frisbee golf. Spoiler alert: approximately nobody plays those versions.

It's a similar problem actually -- overpowered discs and pros make old courses designed for Frisbees way too easy, so they just make new courses longer and sometimes add artificial OB to compensate. Fun to casually play an old course with old Frisbees, but the game has radically changed since the 70s and won't go back.

I'd think Voss's initiative would be equally successful. Might be fun once in a while to throw a Mineralite in an old center, but that's it.