BallReviews
General Category => PBA => Topic started by: avabob on June 18, 2014, 03:50:19 PM
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Anyone watch the Badger show last night? Let me first state that this not a slam on the young two hander who finished second. I think the kid made a tremendous effort, and there aren't many guys who could execute they way he did while lofting as far down the lane. Having said that, this strategy brings up a huge problem that I would not like to deal with as a proprietor. Part of the problem lies with being able to dull up the surfaces so much. I have said for several years that we could deal with part of the lane break down problem if all balls had to be 4000 grit as a final finish. Best solution would be to outlaw resin balls along with not allowing aggressive surface alterations.
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Just how would you police this? Your idea, while in theory, sounds good, would never, ever work in the real world.
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Anyone watch the Badger show last night? Let me first state that this not a slam on the young two hander who finished second. I think the kid made a tremendous effort, and there aren't many guys who could execute they way he did while lofting as far down the lane. Having said that, this strategy brings up a huge problem that I would not like to deal with as a proprietor. Part of the problem lies with being able to dull up the surfaces so much. I have said for several years that we could deal with part of the lane break down problem if all balls had to be 4000 grit as a final finish. Best solution would be to outlaw resin balls along with not allowing aggressive surface alterations.
I think your about 20 years too late
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Since this was supposed to be the Badger pattern, but by the time practice/warm-ups were complete, it was no longer the Badger pattern,
should the PBA or any tournament management consider re-oiling after warmups to insure the bowler bowl on the intended pattern?
I wonder how Mika, Weber and Kent would have performed on the actual pattern.
Just curious, at this point.
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Since this was supposed to be the Badger pattern, but by the time practice/warm-ups were complete, it was no longer the Badger pattern,
should the PBA or any tournament management consider re-oiling after warmups to insure the bowler bowl on the intended pattern?
I wonder how Mika, Weber and Kent would have performed on the actual pattern.
Just curious, at this point.
This seems like common sense to me. It's been raised as a question because you had someone basically destroy the pattern here but on a lot of these their not bowling the pattern as they are bowling the breakdown for better or worse.
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Since this was supposed to be the Badger pattern, but by the time practice/warm-ups were complete, it was no longer the Badger pattern,
should the PBA or any tournament management consider re-oiling after warmups to insure the bowler bowl on the intended pattern?
I wonder how Mika, Weber and Kent would have performed on the actual pattern.
Just curious, at this point.
This seems like common sense to me. It's been raised as a question because you had someone basically destroy the pattern here but on a lot of these their not bowling the pattern as they are bowling the breakdown for better or worse.
Heck, with 10 minutes of practice on house shot oil patterns, the pattern can be broken down badly even when people don't use 500 grit oil suckers intentionally. Can you imagine the damage done in 20 - 30 minutes when people do use such balls or toss a plastic ball down the 15 board for that length of time?
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Since this was supposed to be the Badger pattern, but by the time practice/warm-ups were complete, it was no longer the Badger pattern,
should the PBA or any tournament management consider re-oiling after warmups to insure the bowler bowl on the intended pattern?
I wonder how Mika, Weber and Kent would have performed on the actual pattern.
Just curious, at this point.
Lets just re-oil after every game of the qualifying block to keep the integrity of the pattern while we are at it.
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The pattern is just an idea as to what is out there. Yeah, they chop it up for themselves to give themselves room. This isn't new.
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Since this was supposed to be the Badger pattern, but by the time practice/warm-ups were complete, it was no longer the Badger pattern,
should the PBA or any tournament management consider re-oiling after warmups to insure the bowler bowl on the intended pattern?
I wonder how Mika, Weber and Kent would have performed on the actual pattern.
Just curious, at this point.
Lets just re-oil after every game of the qualifying block to keep the integrity of the pattern while we are at it.
Just because you don't like me is no reason to say something like that,
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So, if it was Belmo, no one would have a problem with it, but because Brian is a new guy, rules need to be changed? It's called bowling; adjust to the shot as it changes.
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Since this was supposed to be the Badger pattern, but by the time practice/warm-ups were complete, it was no longer the Badger pattern,
should the PBA or any tournament management consider re-oiling after warmups to insure the bowler bowl on the intended pattern?
I wonder how Mika, Weber and Kent would have performed on the actual pattern.
Just curious, at this point.
Lets just re-oil after every game of the qualifying block to keep the integrity of the pattern while we are at it.
Just because you don't like me is no reason to say something like that,
I don't have an issue with you, just some of your ideas.
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So, if it was Belmo, no one would have a problem with it, but because Brian is a new guy, rules need to be changed? It's called bowling; adjust to the shot as it changes.
You might want to calm down and stop using common sense. Bowlers aren't supposed to adjust the lane adjusts to them!
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Valenta found the Easter egg in the badger pattern. Kudos to the man.
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Burning up the pattern during practice has been around for many years. If some of you remember, Brian Voss wrote a huge comment complaining about this on the PBA forum years ago. Bowlers go out there and burn a shot for themselves and sometimes try to ruin the shot for the others bowlers.
Lets face it, the PBA allows this because they do not want to see low scores on TV. The problem this past weekend is that everyone except O'Neil tried to play the middle of the lane where Valenta burned them up. O'Neil was the smart one and threw a rocket to the pocket with accuracy and won.
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Id post a response but i'm still waiting for them to set up the 6 pin.
(Gotta love a taped broadcast that wasted a solid 5 minutes waiting for a lane repair)
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Burning up the pattern during practice has been around for many years. If some of you remember, Brian Voss wrote a huge comment complaining about this on the PBA forum years ago. Bowlers go out there and burn a shot for themselves and sometimes try to ruin the shot for the others bowlers.
Lets face it, the PBA allows this because they do not want to see low scores on TV. The problem this past weekend is that everyone except O'Neil tried to play the middle of the lane where Valenta burned them up. O'Neil was the smart one and threw a rocket to the pocket with accuracy and won.
"Ruin the shot for other bowlers"? What does this even mean? Its a disturbing thought process.
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Two real issues here. Burning up the pattern is one issue. I know it has been done intentionally and unintentionally for years. While my solution of requiring balls to be 4000 grit from the factory, and not allow alterations is probably unworkable, something that would defeat the ability of balls to alter the pattern so much and so quickly is needed. I don't think we can ever put the genie back in the bottle for regular league bowling, but I do foresee the day when there will be further restrictions on balls used on tour, that might filter down to sport league tournaments.
Also, O'Neil was able to exploit the shot the way he did, partly because of the way Valenta played. By going back to the right he found some good head oil, but he was able to get a good reaction because he was catching the back ends at about the same place the other guys did, which gave him just enough reaction to get some finish and carry playing 14 out to 11.
The other factor that does not always come into play is the amount of loft being used by Valenta. As a proprietor I would cringe if people a lot of people started doing this in league or open play.
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Why don't we just go back to throwing hard rubber balls?
Things have changed, bowling has changed. You can't stop it from happening. Some of you should read "Who Moved my Cheese", and maybe you'd have a new perspective. What you saw here is a direct result of the PBA trying to develop new patterns. They have Badger now, 52 ft....but in order to make it playable, the volume is relatively low. If you remember back to the Wolf telecast, they showed a fresh lane with Wolf and a fresh lane with Badger. The Wolf lane was a much much darker blue color than Badger. You allow any length of practice time on a low volume pattern, even with balls at 4000, you are going to burn up the pattern. As far as Valenta goes.....no one was complaining 10-15 years ago when Robert Smith was doing the same thing. Why complain now? There were many stops where Smith was lofting the left gutter during the week and more than one occassion where he did so on the Telecast. I do agree as a proprietor, I would not want that happening week after week. The solution, is to put more oil down so the high rev players (both 1 and 2 handed) don't have to to do that. I fail to see the big deal or why some people are so up in arms about this. It's not new.
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Burning up the pattern during practice has been around for many years. If some of [/quote]
"Ruin the shot for other bowlers"? What does this even mean? Its a disturbing thought process.
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Personally I've seen this done a couple times at the league level. A team of right-handers started throwing charcoal up the left side hoping to destroy the heads so a couple of lefties on the other team would struggle by not being able to get their ball to push down the lane properly.
Oh, I guess that they started doing this about halfway through the 15 minutes of practice before league started.
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I don't get it. If the shot is ruined, why is it that someone like Norm Duke, or Walter Ray Williams can stay right, ball down, change their release and score.
These guys are making choices about where they think they can score best. Just because they move deep or loft the gutter cap, does not mean that that is where they should be playing to win.
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Heres how I see it.
Most of the people I see complain about things like pattern breakdown, or even finishes on balls (Requiring 4000? Really?) tend to be people who want easy shots, high scores, and dont want to have to think about anything to win.
Guess what? Patterns break down. Deal with it. You can either learn to adjust to them and play (As we all have to) or you can complain about it.
If someone wants to throw a low grit to intentionally burn up an area to help themselves, go for it. Theres more than 1 line you can play, find a different one.
Especially in this context, we're talking about PBA tour players. I think they can deal with having to adjust and change their strategy. Those who can do it effectively win, those who can't aren't going to. Simple.
I dont see a point in trying to reoil after games, limit finishes, etc. Learn to adapt.
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Why don't we outlaw being left handed while we're at it
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Why don't we outlaw being left handed while we're at it
Earl, Aleta, and Dana won't let you. ;)
BL.
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Sorry, but I don't advocate surface restrictions because I want easy shots. I want surface restrictions so the challenging shots maintain their challenge a bit longer. I have bowled for 50 years competitively. Have won as much or more with modern equipment as with the old stuff so nothing I say is sour grapes. Indeed, with my game I can often stay right of the boomers who blow up the pattern. My comments were what I consider to be in the best interest of the game at a high competitive level. Note that the junior gold and some other high level national junior tourneys were limiting finalists to urethane and plastic, so it is not horrible to suggest that PBA competitors wouldn't be ruined by doing something similar.
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That's like telling these guys at nationals that they can't all play the same zone or area to change or shape their reaction, let them practice and re-oil before scoring, they did the same back in the day with soaking bowling ball in mek to soften the shell. Heck guys did that before they created the durometer hardness specs back in the day. It's been here in some form or another since bowling started. Why did the bowling ball scale get the name of dodo scale? Cause bowlers figure out how to alter their bowling balls back 60 years ago or longer. Just my $.02,Bruce
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I don't agree that we should limit surfaces or ball types but I do think re-oiling between championship matches is a good idea. It would be interesting to watch the scores drop.
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Why don't we outlaw being left handed while we're at it
I understand that there is at least one competitive league that already HAS banned left-handers. Reason because of severe topography issues of the host center giving the lefties a huge advantage. (Or so they say)
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Its not that the guys are doing anything wrong or illegal. The point is that we have allowed the equipment to become so strong that it alters the condition in a manner unintended. It is sad that technology has allowed us to have lane machines that can put out challenging yet fair conditions, but the balls basically destroy that pattern so quickly. Why bother owning a 38K lane machine when the balls blow the shot up in 20 minutes of practice. Just mop a bunch of oil on the lane, because they blow a hole in it in no time. Again, not a slam on the bowlers, and this has nothing to do with the scoring level. A more competitive environment where your success is less dependent on the guy you cross behind would be good for the game.
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I wonder if that "Defy Convention" Brunswick lane conditioner will make this entire argument moot.
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The cream rises to the top. More oil or longer lasting oil will benefit some, and hurt others. The best bowler is the one that can repeat shots, and figures out the best way to play the lanes in the moment. Figuring out how to adjust to the playing environment matters in all sports. So, no need to whimper and whine about the lane conditions, or balls with too much surface. Figure out how to knock all ten pins down with your balls on the surface that you play on and you win. If you can't figure out how to knockem down and the other guy does, he beat you that day. You loose. It's really that simple.
The beauty of it is that we all can roll the ball down the lane and knock ten pins down, no matter what the lane surface is or ball chosen. Over time, the best win the most.
So, for all of you crying because of the lane conditions, or balls having too much surface or left handers having an advantage or two handers having an advantage, send me your mailing address, I'll send you a hanky.
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Anyone watch the Badger show last night? Let me first state that this not a slam on the young two hander who finished second. I think the kid made a tremendous effort, and there aren't many guys who could execute they way he did while lofting as far down the lane. Having said that, this strategy brings up a huge problem that I would not like to deal with as a proprietor. Part of the problem lies with being able to dull up the surfaces so much. I have said for several years that we could deal with part of the lane break down problem if all balls had to be 4000 grit as a final finish. Best solution would be to outlaw resin balls along with not allowing aggressive surface alterations.
Since they give the different patterns different volumes in different areas along with different lengths, it would seem they want them to break down. With the lighter volume of badger, did they really intend it to hold up?
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Its not that the guys are doing anything wrong or illegal. The point is that we have allowed the equipment to become so strong that it alters the condition in a manner unintended. It is sad that technology has allowed us to have lane machines that can put out challenging yet fair conditions, but the balls basically destroy that pattern so quickly. Why bother owning a 38K lane machine when the balls blow the shot up in 20 minutes of practice. Just mop a bunch of oil on the lane, because they blow a hole in it in no time. Again, not a slam on the bowlers, and this has nothing to do with the scoring level. A more competitive environment where your success is less dependent on the guy you cross behind would be good for the game.
personally lane play strategy and lane breakdown is part of bowling competitively and always has been but...
there is an easy solution to this......put more volume down. it is a constant struggle between lane patterns and balls that can blow it up or overcome it or however you want to put it. take any pattern you want to put down and add 5 or 10mLs to it and the strongest super soakers will not blow it up for 10+ games in tournament play. yes it will be more expensive but thats the cost of "preserving the integrity" of bowling. i have seen this theory put into practice at individual tournaments and the pattern played true for the first 8-10 games. it was tough, people complained but the real shot makers still rose to the top.
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Anyone watch the Badger show last night? Let me first state that this not a slam on the young two hander who finished second. I think the kid made a tremendous effort, and there aren't many guys who could execute they way he did while lofting as far down the lane. Having said that, this strategy brings up a huge problem that I would not like to deal with as a proprietor. Part of the problem lies with being able to dull up the surfaces so much. I have said for several years that we could deal with part of the lane break down problem if all balls had to be 4000 grit as a final finish. Best solution would be to outlaw resin balls along with not allowing aggressive surface alterations.
Since they give the different patterns different volumes in different areas along with different lengths, it would seem they want them to break down. With the lighter volume of badger, did they really intend it to hold up?
Its 52 feet, but its light volume, of course it breaks down, not to mention they were on HPLs, already high friction. Now I know the old fashioned purists will say "flood em, 52 feet, flat, heavy volume". Ive learned we cannot take these people serious, seeing scores of 152-148 is "bowling" to them, if its not end-over-end ball roll between first and second arrow, its not "bowling".
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Its not that the guys are doing anything wrong or illegal. The point is that we have allowed the equipment to become so strong that it alters the condition in a manner unintended. It is sad that technology has allowed us to have lane machines that can put out challenging yet fair conditions, but the balls basically destroy that pattern so quickly. Why bother owning a 38K lane machine when the balls blow the shot up in 20 minutes of practice. Just mop a bunch of oil on the lane, because they blow a hole in it in no time. Again, not a slam on the bowlers, and this has nothing to do with the scoring level. A more competitive environment where your success is less dependent on the guy you cross behind would be good for the game.
personally lane play strategy and lane breakdown is part of bowling competitively and always has been but...
there is an easy solution to this......put more volume down. it is a constant struggle between lane patterns and balls that can blow it up or overcome it or however you want to put it. take any pattern you want to put down and add 5 or 10mLs to it and the strongest super soakers will not blow it up for 10+ games in tournament play. yes it will be more expensive but thats the cost of "preserving the integrity" of bowling. i have seen this theory put into practice at individual tournaments and the pattern played true for the first 8-10 games. it was tough, people complained but the real shot makers still rose to the top.
More volume? More surface. Ive had the honor to practice with some of the better collegiate players in the country and its nothing for them to get a 220 grit pad, lean on a ball and blow up a spot on the lane.
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more surface? more volume. like i said its a constant struggle between lane oils and bowling ball technology. i have also bowled with very good collegiate bowlers and know what the elite players are capable of if needed. i dont know exact numbers that are needed to combat the problem people seem to have with balls breaking down patterns but when less than a shot of alcohol of lane oil is needed to make a heavy oil ball skate for 60ft i find it hard to believe it cant easily be done. like i said i have no problem with lane play strategy and pattern breakdown im just trying to play devils advocate but bowl on a 42' pattern with 35mL of volume and it will hold up for a while. if 35mLs isnt enough go to 40 or 45mLs. there will be a point where the 180 grit super covers wont be able to breakdown a pattern in a game or two. people just have to be willing to spend however much in extra oil to oil the lanes
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more surface? more volume. like i said its a constant struggle between lane oils and bowling ball technology. i have also bowled with very good collegiate bowlers and know what the elite players are capable of if needed. i dont know exact numbers that are needed to combat the problem people seem to have with balls breaking down patterns but when less than a shot of alcohol of lane oil is needed to make a heavy oil ball skate for 60ft i find it hard to believe it cant easily be done. like i said i have no problem with lane play strategy and pattern breakdown im just trying to play devils advocate but bowl on a 42' pattern with 35mL of volume and it will hold up for a while. if 35mLs isnt enough go to 40 or 45mLs. there will be a point where the 180 grit super covers wont be able to breakdown a pattern in a game or two. people just have to be willing to spend however much in extra oil to oil the lanes
Now you're going in circles. You start pulling this crap, left handers are locked out, they won't show up. Low rev players, they're staying home. Tweeners, no chance, they're staying home. The older players (seniors) who seem to be beating the drum the loudest for using more oil, they won't hit the headpin. Hell, in regular league play, these old farts plead and beg for more oil, over wall them and give them their wish? They wash out every other frame. The only real answer is do what you do best, hooking it, throwing it straight, etc, just repeat shots and stop crying or looking for ways to bring someone down to your skill level or scoring pace.
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The cream rises to the top. More oil or longer lasting oil will benefit some, and hurt others. The best bowler is the one that can repeat shots, and figures out the best way to play the lanes in the moment. Figuring out how to adjust to the playing environment matters in all sports. So, no need to whimper and whine about the lane conditions, or balls with too much surface. Figure out how to knock all ten pins down with your balls on the surface that you play on and you win. If you can't figure out how to knockem down and the other guy does, he beat you that day. You loose. It's really that simple.
The beauty of it is that we all can roll the ball down the lane and knock ten pins down, no matter what the lane surface is or ball chosen. Over time, the best win the most.
So, for all of you crying because of the lane conditions, or balls having too much surface or left handers having an advantage or two handers having an advantage, send me your mailing address, I'll send you a hanky.
This statement should explain it all. Stop crying about it and just BOWL. Changing something of this nature because the individual doesn't like it will ruin the sport. If you don't like it, just don't bowl. Other than that, adapt to the conditions, throw the ball(s) and knock the pins down!!!
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The older players (seniors) who seem to be beating the drum the loudest for using more oil, they won't hit the headpin. Hell, in regular league play, these old farts plead and beg for more oil, over wall them and give them their wish? They wash out every other frame.
My suggestion to you: Why don't you ask your Center to put the condition used for Seniors out for your League. Do it for a month and lets see the reaction from your league bowlers!
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House shots ruin the shot for bowlers.
That being said, Brian is the same guy that won a regional with a rubber ball. He's got game.
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After reading all of this comment on the Badger show.I want to say my 2 cents worth.
It was great to see a new bowler do so well! But old school still won. Did you get that rocket to the pocket won !!!
I bowl with seniors they want more oil because they have slowed down because of age and would love to use stronger new balls. But they cannot and guess what someday each of you will be there and want more oil.Come play with the seniors they use plastic, rubber, 25 year old urethane or any thing else they have from the past. Yes they play 2nd arrow and down the middle and any where else the have to the get to the pocket. And the pattern breaks down different every day depends on who you bowl. Know why? Because they are old school backup balls full rollers suitcase releases they have it all. Years ago I complained to my older partner about how the mixed league bowlers messed up my shot. He said to me. YOU ARE A SCRATCH BOWLER SO SHUT UP AND BOWL! I wanted a change so I joined a travel league lots of different houses. Different lanes different ths and different bowlers all men
young, old,short and tall they all compete don't complain to much and they all are trying to learn how to bowl better. Guys try to embrace change, respect those who have come before us and above all have fun make your self a better bowler. Last Thursday night I bowled on a men's trio 4 game summer league and my team left 7 7-10 splits.
I had 3 of them but we pressed on and won all 4 games as the other team was playing on the same pair same conditions. Who would have thought both teams struggled. That said lets bowl. Only time I see lots of oil is nationals. Bowled in 14 different houses last year.
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House shots ruin the shot for bowlers.
That being said, Brian is the same guy that won a regional with a rubber ball. He's got game.
Here it is. Valenta won his first regional using a Brunswick Black Beauty
http://www.11thframe.com/news/article/5946
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I have to chuckle reading some of the comments about the old geezers, since I am one of them. I won a couple of senior tourneys on higher volume 47 ft patterns a year or so ago. Averaged about 225 doing it. Another one I averaged 230, and didn't lead the qualifying. Funny thing was I was talking to a very good young regional player after one of them, and he joked that it was a good thing the kids weren't bowling, because they would have blown up the pattern so bad nobody could hit it. He was not far from the truth.
As I said in a previous post, none of my comments are sour grapes. I have had more success as a senior than I could have ever dreamed. At my age their is no pattern that I could compete with the kids on, and there shouldn't be. I just feel that technology caused some problems that detract from the physical integrity ( not scoring ) of the game. New lane machine technology has given us a chance to control some of it, and oils have helped. I just think it is too bad that we cant make minor adjustments to ball surfaces to make the patterns hold up a bit better, and not allow guys to just snow plow a shot in any way they want. Imagine in golf if the pros had balls that allowed them to make any green play slow, no matter how much they tried to toughen them up. How long do you think those balls would last.
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avabob,
Your golf ball/greens analogy would work, if every golf ball that rolled across the green changed the surface of the green in some way. The fact is it doesn't, so the analogy is moot. Every ball thrown, whether at 4000 grit, 500 grit, or 80 grit changes the oil pattern. Every ball thrown, whether it's resin, particle, urethane or rubber, changes the oil pattern. After 10-15 mins of practice, any oil pattern will be different then when it started, in some way. Whether it's oil getting sucked into the new balls, whether it's oil evaporating under the TV lights, whether it's oil getting pushed down from plastic or urethane balls being thrown, the pattern will change. Sorry, I don't see your point of detracting from the physical intgrety of the game. What do you mean by that? Is it because no one else could play like Valenta was playing? If so, then again I ask, why wasn't anyone complaining when Robert Smith did this during his prime? I'm not trying to be an @ss, I really don't get your point.
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Jorge300, I believe he said imagine....
Lanes change. Yes. But to intentionally affect the outcome by using a ball in practice that you would never use in competition is less than sporting. Whether it is Valenta, Duke or Daugherty, it is less than ethical regardless of what the rules say.
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Urethane Game,
So let's imagine a bowling ball that hooks a ton, but doesn't change the oil one bit....problem solved, right? You can imagine all you want, I like to speak about reality.
As far as Valenta's tactics, it's been part of the game for a while now. Did you think Chris Barnes could naturally play the gutter on Shark 4-5 years ago (or whenever it was he won doing that)? He threw practice there and burned up a shot that only he could play consistently. Valenta did the same thing, basically. But by doing it he wound up hurting the other players. Why is giving yourself the best chance to win unethical? I called it from Match 1....I thought Mika should have moved right and tried to play straight-up Valenta's breakpoint, or just outside of it. I thought Kent should have done the same. Weber couldn't do that but he had a good look and got a few bad breaks, and then stuck on the spare to hand the match to Valenta. Only O'Neil made that move and he won. It's not like Valenta blew away Mika or Weber doing this. He got lucky against Mika and the final score showed a wide margin of victory, Valenta's shots didn't earn him that score. He was very close with Weber, until Weber missed that spare cause he stuck. Again, it wasn't his skill that gave him the final margin of victory. From my standpoint, Valenta tried a tactic that only worked because the other bowlers tried to fit their game into his tactic instead of doing something to give themselves a better chance to win.
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But to intentionally affect the outcome by using a ball in practice that you would never use in competition is less than sporting.
Really? LoL ::) :)
So how, ethically speaking, is "intentionally affecting the outcome" by effort and attempting to score as high as possible against a said opponent alone DIFFERENT than "intentionally affecting the outcome" by ball choice in practice?
Is the intent of both actions NOT a net negative for my opponent?
Perhaps if we're playing a similar line in competition, I should move somewhere else so that I don't use up the head oil in what is HIS line as well? It would then be unethical for me to play there as I could "affect the outcome", not only for myself but my opponent as well.
I must concede though, I appreciate you (and bowlers like you) being so considerate of my line before competition! :) :) :)
I use a plastic for spares, however you'll object to my using plastic in a certain zone of the lane (where my opponent is playing "b/c my opponent is playing there")?
Both ways, I'm trying to win. Draw a distinction........we need to define "less than sporting". Define ALL that fits this criteria.........
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Jorge300, I believe he said imagine....
Lanes change. Yes. But to intentionally affect the outcome by using a ball in practice that you would never use in competition is less than sporting. Whether it is Valenta, Duke or Daugherty, it is less than ethical regardless of what the rules say.
Play to your strength within the rules and win. Nothing wrong with that. The balls were legal and everybody had the right to burn a spot in if they chose that as a strategy.
From the looks of it, the shot was not nearly as blown up as some think. Oniel chose to stay right and make quality shots. He could have moved left, lofted the gutter throwing hard and hoping for lucky breaks like Valenta but he did not.
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Jorge300, I believe he said imagine....
Lanes change. Yes. But to intentionally affect the outcome by using a ball in practice that you would never use in competition is less than sporting. Whether it is Valenta, Duke or Daugherty, it is less than ethical regardless of what the rules say.
Play to your strength within the rules and win. Nothing wrong with that. The balls were legal and everybody had the right to burn a spot in if they chose that as a strategy.
From the looks of it, the shot was not nearly as blown up as some think. Oniel chose to stay right and make quality shots. He could have moved left, lofted the gutter throwing hard and hoping for lucky breaks like Valenta but he did not.
Don't be so dismissive, Valenta wasn't "hoping for lucky breaks". What a ridiculous statement.
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Let me reiterate. Valenta bowled well ( and lucky ) to win. Not a slam on any bowler, just a concern with rules that do not allow a tournament to accomplish what they desire in terms of a lane pattern.
Really, the biggest problem I have with the current environment of high friction balls is that they have made long formats obsolete, in a game that needs long formats to bring the cream to the top.
I am going to flat out say that we did a better job of identifying the most deserving player in tournaments where it was possible to run 4 six game blocks of qualifying during the day without re oiling after every block.
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avabob,
I never took it as slam against Valenta.
Also, I respect your opinions and your knowledge of this game. You've accomplished much more than I have in the sport and I am sure you are trying to think about what is best for this sport. I think the issue is some of the thinking you are articulating, I feel, isn't correct. I think the Badger pattern accomplished exactly what it was supposed to. It required players to play a much more direct line to the pocket. If you saw, in the match against Kent, Valenta moved right and tighted up his line to try and save what oil was left, and still had a good look. His style, allowed him to move further left than the others and allowed him to open the pocket more and created some of the breaks he got. It was a shot that played into his physical game. I think the cream did rise to the top. You saw 3 former major winners, and two of the brightest young stars in our game with two very distinct styles as your top 5. Doesn't get much better than that.
I also disagree with your statement about crowning the most deserving player when you don't reoil. How can you crown the most deserving player in this format? Where the people bowling the 2nd, 3rd, 4th squads, their shots are determined by who played the lanes in front of them. Using Badger as an example, would it be fair for some people to follow the same draw and Valenta or Belmonte, where they would be playing so far left of center from game 1, while others may follow Bill O'Neill or Marshall Kent who would play a more direct line? Is it fair that someone like Valenta, Belmonte or Robert Smith can generate more revs than most players and can loft the left gutter so much better than a Marshall Kent when they both bowl on the 4th squad? Even if you did 4 days of qualifying so everybody bowls each squad once for the week. The only squad where the bowler really controls his own destiny, where the true cream of the crop rises to the top, is the first squad, because everyone is on an equal footing at that point.
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Actually I think the longer patterns are great, because they do at least temporarily force people to play the pattern. In hindsight the only reason I started this thread was the way Valenta ( and the rest of the guys except for O Neil ) were lofting the ball as far down the lane as they did. It is unfortunate that we allow balls to make the pattern deteriorate to such a degree that playing the lane with so much loft is a viable option.
As for the formats, the old PBA format worked pretty good in determining finalists. 18 games of qualifying with every bowler shooting a block on fresh oil, and on second shift. Finals were full round robin for the top 24 with everyone on the lanes at the same time. The oils just wont hold up to this kind of format anymore.
I remember when they had to make the change in the Masters finals in 1997. Prior to then, lanes were oiled in the morning on the final day of match play, with at least 4, and as many as 6 matches on each pair the last day. By 1996 the leftys who survived the first couple of rounds were totally dominating the match play. In 97 they started oiling again after 3 rounds. Even then it was a crap shoot in draws. If you were a power player you didn't want to catch a straight guy on the fresh, and if you were a straighter player you didn't want to catch a boomer after they opened up.
Not sure there is an answer to this, and in truth it is lack of prize money, not balls and lane conditions that have turned the pro game into what it has become.
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Bob,
I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the prize money. It's really a joke. The PBA should be focusing on locating a sponsor that will buy into bowling, and make it a big event.
Bass fishing was once ran and supported by BASS. In comes WalMart, and they start the FLW Tour. 100k, per tournament.(Here is an example of the payout http://www.flwoutdoors.com/bassfishing/flw/tournament/2014/7127/pickwick-lake-professional-results/) 500k to the winner of the final tournament, equivalent to the USBC Masters, The Forest Wood Cup. Second place pays 60k. 21st - 45th place gets 10k.
The FLW pulls in various sponsors for each tournament and pays the top 50 finishers enough to buy gas, food, and pay their light bill for showing up. Surely, bowling is as popular as bass fishing. Yet, the USBC has not figured out how to turn this populaity into a stable sport. I bet the guys working in the front office get paid way more than they are worth.
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Bowling may be as popular as bass fishing, but bass fishing is a way to feature boats, and a lot more money is spent on boats than on bowling. Brunswick boat and marine engine divisions did 10 times the net sales as their bowling division last year.
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Bob,
I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the prize money. It's really a joke. The PBA should be focusing on locating a sponsor that will buy into bowling, and make it a big event.
Bass fishing was once ran and supported by BASS. In comes WalMart, and they start the FLW Tour. 100k, per tournament.(Here is an example of the payout http://www.flwoutdoors.com/bassfishing/flw/tournament/2014/7127/pickwick-lake-professional-results/) 500k to the winner of the final tournament, equivalent to the USBC Masters, The Forest Wood Cup. Second place pays 60k. 21st - 45th place gets 10k.
The FLW pulls in various sponsors for each tournament and pays the top 50 finishers enough to buy gas, food, and pay their light bill for showing up. Surely, bowling is as popular as bass fishing. Yet, the USBC has not figured out how to turn this populaity into a stable sport. I bet the guys working in the front office get paid way more than they are worth.
The problem with this is there are no large conglomerates selling bowling equipment. Wal-Mart with the FLW Tour sells boats, fishing equipment and outdoor equipment to make it profitable for them. I'm sure there could be competition between Bass Pro Shop and Cabela's to keep this. Bowling doesn't have this who really makes money from bowling? Most alleys are individually owned , as are most pro shops, the ball companies are really the only names in bowling and I don't believe they turn that kind of revenue and have the will to spend it if they do.
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The big investment banks don't sell golf equipment, but it doesn't stop them from making the top 150 golfers millionaires.
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The big investment banks don't sell golf equipment, but it doesn't stop them from making the top 150 golfers millionaires.
But the demographic for golf programs is vastly different from that of bowling shows. 99% of business executives, doctors, lawyers and politicians play golf and make business decisions on golf courses ; maybe 1 out of 500 or 1000 bowl. Plumbers and electricians and truck drivers bowl and make drinking decisions on the lanes. And never the twain shall meet.
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The big investment banks don't sell golf equipment, but it doesn't stop them from making the top 150 golfers millionaires.
But the demographic for golf programs is vastly different from that of bowling shows. 99% of business executives, doctors, lawyers and politicians play golf and make business decisions on golf courses ; maybe 1 out of 500 or 1000 bowl. Plumbers and electricians and truck drivers bowl and make drinking decisions on the lanes. And never the twain shall meet.
Nothing like a sweeping generalization to sum it up, thanks.
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Bob,
I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the prize money. It's really a joke. The PBA should be focusing on locating a sponsor that will buy into bowling, and make it a big event.
Bass fishing was once ran and supported by BASS. In comes WalMart, and they start the FLW Tour. 100k, per tournament.(Here is an example of the payout http://www.flwoutdoors.com/bassfishing/flw/tournament/2014/7127/pickwick-lake-professional-results/) 500k to the winner of the final tournament, equivalent to the USBC Masters, The Forest Wood Cup. Second place pays 60k. 21st - 45th place gets 10k.
The FLW pulls in various sponsors for each tournament and pays the top 50 finishers enough to buy gas, food, and pay their light bill for showing up. Surely, bowling is as popular as bass fishing. Yet, the USBC has not figured out how to turn this populaity into a stable sport. I bet the guys working in the front office get paid way more than they are worth.
The problem with this is there are no large conglomerates selling bowling equipment. Wal-Mart with the FLW Tour sells boats, fishing equipment and outdoor equipment to make it profitable for them. I'm sure there could be competition between Bass Pro Shop and Cabela's to keep this. Bowling doesn't have this who really makes money from bowling? Most alleys are individually owned , as are most pro shops, the ball companies are really the only names in bowling and I don't believe they turn that kind of revenue and have the will to spend it if they do.
Ding, Ding, Ding.
So, is the fact that bowing equipment not sold by the major retailers good or bad? What effort has been made to address this. If Wally World can make a dollar off of it, they will sell it.
I remember a time when you could go to K Mart and buy a bowling ball. Some would say there is not enough demand. But, that again is the problem, not the solution. Someone at the USBC is getting paid to market. Doing a piss poor job of it too.
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Dicks carries a limited selection of bowling balls, maybe the USBC should approach them.
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Dicks carries a limited selection of bowling balls, maybe the USBC should approach them.
They might be willing to do something but there not going to stick there necks out the way Walmart did with FLW there is just not enough money or interest there. Are you really going to go let some 18 year old clerk punch the holes in your next ball? Would you recommend that to even a newbie?
Something needs to be done but I'm not sure what it is. Maybe have the ball manufactures get together and raise the prices $20 bucks per ball and use it to sponsor pba and local tournaments. Probably illegal collusion but it's the only piece of the current system that really works.
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Dicks carries a limited selection of bowling balls, maybe the USBC should approach them.
They might be willing to do something but there not going to stick there necks out the way Walmart did with FLW there is just not enough money or interest there. Are you really going to go let some 18 year old clerk punch the holes in your next ball? Would you recommend that to even a newbie?
Something needs to be done but I'm not sure what it is. Maybe have the ball manufactures get together and raise the prices $20 bucks per ball and use it to sponsor pba and local tournaments. Probably illegal collusion but it's the only piece of the current system that really works.
The cheap bastards in bowling cry over a $5 raise in USBC fees, raise the balls $20 and these guys will be calling Bankruptcy attorneys. I say raise the ball prices more than $20,I say $50 or $75, ball prices have remained relatively static for the past two decades, raise the prices, get that money back into the PBA for prize funds, good young players for the most part have no desire to go on tour, why would you when you have more earning potential being a desk jockey?
If you even think to respond to this with poppycock, don't. If you aren't offering up solutions, no matter how silly they may be, you are part of problem, not the solution.
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I agree on both counts I originally thought about $75 but knowing how bowlers are I figured we would be lucky to ever get $20. I know no other sport where you can buy top of the line equipment for $150.
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You guys have the problem solved .. no need to respond!
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If 50% of bowlers spent $65 on Xtra Frame this year instead of buying a new ball just once a year, the PBA would be saved.
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If 50% of bowlers spent $65 on Xtra Frame this year instead of buying a new ball just once a year, the PBA would be saved.
Just $5.41 a month, do your part. Nope, much easier to cry and whine about Randy Pederson, the lighting on the telecast, the day and time of the show, the theme music of the players, etc etc etc You get my point, all this bitching and this is WITHOUT them subscribing to Xtra Frame, can you imagine the entitlement if they were paying?
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The PBA deserves to die, and the sooner the better.