Post by: tonybowls on December 09, 2007, 10:13:18 PM
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on December 10, 2007, 06:54:42 AM
The only thing I could guess is that since Chris Barnes is the poster boy of bowling, maybe he gets more backlash.
Post by: MAJM on December 10, 2007, 07:03:41 AM
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Join the Revolution
http://www.ronpaul2008.com
http://www.900global.com
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on December 10, 2007, 07:07:51 AM
Post by: Danes07 on December 10, 2007, 07:24:23 AM
quote:
For all you Chris Barnes haters I have a question. Is Wes Malott a choker? 2-6 lifetime in TV Finals. 15 times made TV and only 2 titles. So I'm wondering why he doesn't take some heat for not winning more. Maybe some of you bowling guru's can fill me in on this.
I don't really think you can go calling someone a choker until you get out there and win more titles in a shorter time period than said bowler. These guys are the best in the world and thus they bowl against the best in the world each week.
Wes has 2 titles in only 15 times on TV...thats a hell of a lot better than a lot of guys out there on tour. Look at Walter Ray...it took Walter a long time before he started winning lots of titles. Give Wes some time. I think he's gonna end up being one of the more dominant bowlers on tour.
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University at Albany 2007
-Let's Go Danes-
Post by: Coleman on December 10, 2007, 07:41:21 AM
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When Chuck Norris sends in his taxes, he sends blank forms and includes only a picture of himself, crouched and ready to attack. Chuck Norris has not had to pay taxes ever.
Post by: baccala8872 on December 10, 2007, 07:44:27 AM
--Opponents avg. against in televised matches (at the risk of sounding Loschetter-ish)
--Sudden loss of look. (Who among us, pros and amateurs alike, hasn't gone 250-something, 160-something, 240 something?)
--"Different" ball reaction when the shots get more critical. If/when he whips a ringing ten when needing a strike, that is tons different than leaving 4-thru-the-face, or double nuts under the same pressure.
Again, that is just my hack $0.02.
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If I ever saw an amputee being hanged, I'd just yell out letters. --DM
Post by: ccrider on December 10, 2007, 10:04:01 AM
quote:
For all you who think any of those guys are chokers how many PBA titles do you have.
--------------------
When Chuck Norris sends in his taxes, he sends blank forms and includes only a picture of himself, crouched and ready to attack. Chuck Norris has not had to pay taxes ever.
First, let me say that I like Wes and thinks that ultimately he will be one of the best bowlers on tour.
You do not have to be a professional bowler or have won a title to know a person that chokes under pressure. The best figures out a way to overcome the pressure and stress and does what it takes to win, whether it be football, baseball, bowling, pool, etc. It does not matter.
Wes chokes --- time after time.
This is not to say that he will always choke. After time, he may figure out what it takes to overcome his nerves and capture the moment. I think that he will. I have watched him and its like you can see the uncertainty in sense that for now he "lacks the ability to close the deal". The ultimate choker.
Post by: NicholasE on December 10, 2007, 10:09:25 AM
Everyone also talks about CB choking well he has been in the top ranking for most money earned I think over a million dollars maybe more..if thats choking then I would love to choke!
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MoRich bowling - Better take some Viagra, you don't want to go soft throwing a MoRich!
Post by: BowlingWolf on December 10, 2007, 10:16:37 AM
quote:quote:
For all you who think any of those guys are chokers how many PBA titles do you have.
--------------------
When Chuck Norris sends in his taxes, he sends blank forms and includes only a picture of himself, crouched and ready to attack. Chuck Norris has not had to pay taxes ever.
First, let me say that I like Wes and thinks that ultimately he will be one of the best bowlers on tour.
You do not have to be a professional bowler or have won a title to know a person that chokes under pressure. The best figures out a way to overcome the pressure and stress and does what it takes to win, whether it be football, baseball, bowling, pool, etc. It does not matter.
Wes chokes --- time after time.
This is not to say that he will always choke. After time, he may figure out what it takes to overcome his nerves and capture the moment. I think that he will. I have watched him and its like you can see the uncertainty in sense that for now he "lacks the ability to close the deal". The ultimate choker.
Based on yesterday's performance, Wes is definitely not a choker.
He had to deal with tremendous transition.
He was, after all, the last right-handed bowler standing, and that left lane became very hard to hit. Had he struck on that lane more often (left a couple of 2-8 spares by not finishing enough, since he had to move deeper in order not to go through the beak), I think the outcome might've (might have) been different.
Patrick didn't have to deal with his side changing too much, he was still able to play near the ditch, and although he had to make a couple of small moves to get the necessary reaction out his his bowling balls, the changes were not nearly as radical as Wes's. (By the way, I am not descrediting Patrick-he bowled great.)
So, no, I do not believe Wes choked. Bowling adjustments don't always work out as we intend them to.
--------------------
Regards,
BowlingWolf
Edited on 12/10/2007 11:16 AM
Post by: dw23 on December 10, 2007, 10:16:49 AM
Chris Barnes (who is one of my favorite bowlers by the way) has missed horribly on shots needed for the win when he has been in his comfort zone. I'm not talking about a weak ten from missing a little at the bottom. I mean total misses that cause bucket leaves or big fours. He will get over this and make better shots on TV. If it equates to more wins or not remains to be seen.
Post by: ccrider on December 10, 2007, 10:32:24 AM
quote:quote:quote:
For all you who think any of those guys are chokers how many PBA titles do you have.
--------------------
When Chuck Norris sends in his taxes, he sends blank forms and includes only a picture of himself, crouched and ready to attack. Chuck Norris has not had to pay taxes ever.
First, let me say that I like Wes and thinks that ultimately he will be one of the best bowlers on tour.
You do not have to be a professional bowler or have won a title to know a person that chokes under pressure. The best figures out a way to overcome the pressure and stress and does what it takes to win, whether it be football, baseball, bowling, pool, etc. It does not matter.
Wes chokes --- time after time.
This is not to say that he will always choke. After time, he may figure out what it takes to overcome his nerves and capture the moment. I think that he will. I have watched him and its like you can see the uncertainty in sense that for now he "lacks the ability to close the deal". The ultimate choker.
Based on yesterday's performance, Wes is definitely not a choker.
He had to deal with tremendous transition.
He was, after all, the last right-handed bowler standing, and that left lane became very hard to hit. Had he struck on that lane more often (left a couple of 2-8 spares by not finishing enough, since he had to move deeper in order not to go through the beak), I think the outcome might've (might have) been different.
Patrick didn't have to deal with his side changing too much, he was still able to play near the ditch, and although he had to make a couple of small moves to get the necessary reaction out his his bowling balls, the changes were not nearly as radical as Wes's. (By the way, I am not descrediting Patrick-he bowled great.)
So, no, I do not believe Wes choked. Bowling adjustments don't always work out as we intend them to.
--------------------
Regards,
BowlingWolf
Edited on 12/10/2007 11:16 AM
Excuses are monuments of nothing building bridges that lead to nowhere.
They all bowled on the same lanes. Noone had there hands tied behind their back. If Wes is making the same excuses that you and others seem to be making for him, that is a big part of his proble. He should call it straight up, he did not perform in the end, he did not close, and it is not the lanes fault.
By definition (my definition anyway), choking is the failure to throw the best shot when it matters. Wes did not do it and has not done it on TV -- Period.
Post by: sdbowler on December 10, 2007, 10:36:57 AM
If you are calling him a choker. I would really love to be a choker like that then. Be out on tour bowling against the best bowlers.
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Brunswick
Kyle
Edited on 12/10/2007 11:38 AM
Post by: BowlingWolf on December 10, 2007, 10:42:16 AM
quote:quote:quote:quote:
For all you who think any of those guys are chokers how many PBA titles do you have.
--------------------
When Chuck Norris sends in his taxes, he sends blank forms and includes only a picture of himself, crouched and ready to attack. Chuck Norris has not had to pay taxes ever.
First, let me say that I like Wes and thinks that ultimately he will be one of the best bowlers on tour.
You do not have to be a professional bowler or have won a title to know a person that chokes under pressure. The best figures out a way to overcome the pressure and stress and does what it takes to win, whether it be football, baseball, bowling, pool, etc. It does not matter.
Wes chokes --- time after time.
This is not to say that he will always choke. After time, he may figure out what it takes to overcome his nerves and capture the moment. I think that he will. I have watched him and its like you can see the uncertainty in sense that for now he "lacks the ability to close the deal". The ultimate choker.
Based on yesterday's performance, Wes is definitely not a choker.
He had to deal with tremendous transition.
He was, after all, the last right-handed bowler standing, and that left lane became very hard to hit. Had he struck on that lane more often (left a couple of 2-8 spares by not finishing enough, since he had to move deeper in order not to go through the beak), I think the outcome might've (might have) been different.
Patrick didn't have to deal with his side changing too much, he was still able to play near the ditch, and although he had to make a couple of small moves to get the necessary reaction out his his bowling balls, the changes were not nearly as radical as Wes's. (By the way, I am not descrediting Patrick-he bowled great.)
So, no, I do not believe Wes choked. Bowling adjustments don't always work out as we intend them to.
--------------------
Regards,
BowlingWolf
Edited on 12/10/2007 11:16 AM
Excuses are monuments of nothing building bridges that lead to nowhere.
They all bowled on the same lanes. Noone had there hands tied behind their back. If Wes is making the same excuses that you and others seem to be making for him, that is a big part of his proble. He should call it straight up, he did not perform in the end, he did not close, and it is not the lanes fault.
By definition (my definition anyway), choking is the failure to throw the best shot when it matters. Wes did not do it and has not done it on TV -- Period.
You just started bowling in 2007, and can already make the statement that a shot is a shot no matter what.
Hmmmmm.
Learn a little about the game, and then decide.
The adjustments Wes had to make were way more difficult than Patrick's, since his moves required larger chunks of real estate.
One day, perhaps, you'll understand.
--------------------
Regards,
BowlingWolf
Post by: justdale on December 10, 2007, 10:45:37 AM
As for last night you can say that his 2-8 pin leaves were not his best effort and he came right out and said that he knew better, and he just was not getting the ball out on the left lane. But, according to what I heard on the telecast last night, they had a half hour more of practice before the telecast even started, than they ever had on any previous shows.
If all you haters want to call any of those bowlers out there chokers, maybe you should try and even compete on their level. There are qualifiers every week, pony up the money and give it a try
--------------------
Dale Williams
Columbia 300 Utah Amateur Staff
Post by: BuzzsawCrazy on December 10, 2007, 10:47:45 AM
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In the bag:
16lb. Pearl Cherry C/2(808 series)
16lb. Pink Rasberry
15lb. Cranberry
15lb. Pro Purple
15lb. Enriched Uranium
15lb. Cobalt Pearl
15lb. G-Force
15lb. Super Carbide Bomb
15lb. Crystal Diamond
15lb. No Mercy
Post by: ccrider on December 10, 2007, 11:19:23 AM
quote:quote:quote:quote:quote:
For all you who think any of those guys are chokers how many PBA titles do you have.
--------------------
When Chuck Norris sends in his taxes, he sends blank forms and includes only a picture of himself, crouched and ready to attack. Chuck Norris has not had to pay taxes ever.
First, let me say that I like Wes and thinks that ultimately he will be one of the best bowlers on tour.
You do not have to be a professional bowler or have won a title to know a person that chokes under pressure. The best figures out a way to overcome the pressure and stress and does what it takes to win, whether it be football, baseball, bowling, pool, etc. It does not matter.
Wes chokes --- time after time.
This is not to say that he will always choke. After time, he may figure out what it takes to overcome his nerves and capture the moment. I think that he will. I have watched him and its like you can see the uncertainty in sense that for now he "lacks the ability to close the deal". The ultimate choker.
Based on yesterday's performance, Wes is definitely not a choker.
He had to deal with tremendous transition.
He was, after all, the last right-handed bowler standing, and that left lane became very hard to hit. Had he struck on that lane more often (left a couple of 2-8 spares by not finishing enough, since he had to move deeper in order not to go through the beak), I think the outcome might've (might have) been different.
Patrick didn't have to deal with his side changing too much, he was still able to play near the ditch, and although he had to make a couple of small moves to get the necessary reaction out his his bowling balls, the changes were not nearly as radical as Wes's. (By the way, I am not descrediting Patrick-he bowled great.)
So, no, I do not believe Wes choked. Bowling adjustments don't always work out as we intend them to.
--------------------
Regards,
BowlingWolf
Edited on 12/10/2007 11:16 AM
Excuses are monuments of nothing building bridges that lead to nowhere.
They all bowled on the same lanes. Noone had there hands tied behind their back. If Wes is making the same excuses that you and others seem to be making for him, that is a big part of his proble. He should call it straight up, he did not perform in the end, he did not close, and it is not the lanes fault.
By definition (my definition anyway), choking is the failure to throw the best shot when it matters. Wes did not do it and has not done it on TV -- Period.
You just started bowling in 2007, and can already make the statement that a shot is a shot no matter what.
Hmmmmm.
Learn a little about the game, and then decide.
The adjustments Wes had to make were way more difficult than Patrick's, since his moves required larger chunks of real estate.
One day, perhaps, you'll understand.
--------------------
Regards,
BowlingWolf
O.k. There are no chokers out there. Some of the pros are just lucky and some are unlucky. And the one that wins stars just happened to be lined up as they shoot the crucial shot. GET REAL.
Yes, I just started bowling in 2007. I do not claim to be a pro, or even to be good. However, I am adept enough to respond to and attack illogical arguments or assertions, rather than turning to personal attacks when my argument is too weak to carry the day, unlike the wolf guy above.
The fact that I am not a pro, or have only bowled for about a year, does not mean that I do not understand the game, or the impact of lane conditions. I venture to say that I have probably read and studied the game more in the last 8 months then most have the last ten years, although my bowling experience is really beside the point.
They are all pros. They are all good. However, there is something that separates the best from the rest --- the ability to finish. It does not matter what the sport, task or challenge in life is. Some have it, some don't. Whether Wes has it, but has not found it within is yet to be seen.
Post by: EboKnight on December 10, 2007, 11:22:51 AM
the last 2 shows he stones a ten and the other the right side is a squirrelly as it gets.
if he had the same shot that PA did this week he would have won outright.
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Ebonite Regional Pro Shop Staff "Bowl to Win"
CALL IT A HAMBONE!!!
Post by: Dan Belcher on December 10, 2007, 11:25:41 AM
Post by: LuckyLefty on December 10, 2007, 11:28:21 AM
Randy Peterson says it very well every week. If you have bad ball reaction in practice it is tough to be real confident in the real match! I believe sometimes the "choker" can be one of the best bowlers in the world who simply has a BAD ball reaction that day and can't find the fix!
I believe the reason Wes Malott is not viewed as a choker is that when called on to strike to win he has frequently annhilated the hole but been tapped.
On the other hand Chris Barnes that great bowler has often thrown splits in matches when needing to strike and often these are caused by bad throws(often down into the lane that render his ball....inevitably to be headed to splitsville).
REgards,
Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on December 10, 2007, 11:29:30 AM
quote:
In my opinion, to truly "choke," you need to make a pretty terrible shot. Coming in light on the left lane where he never had a consistent ball reaction is not choking. Leaving a ringing 10 pin is not choking.
That's my take on it as well...
quote:
Wolfe even made the comment that the lanes were bad. I can't recall exactly what he said though.
I just heard it on the replay this afternoon... He said something like good job on the pair guys or something like that. Then Randy came on to explain that you had 8 guys with extra practice breaking down the lanes.
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on December 10, 2007, 11:30:56 AM
quote:
On the other hand Chris Barnes that great bowler has often thrown splits in matches when needing to strike and often these are caused by bad throws(often down into the lane that render his ball....inevitably to be headed to splitsville).
I think recently in a match this year he needed 8/ or something to win the match and he missed to the right by a couple boards and actually left 3 pins. I could be wrong on those numbers but I remember something like that.
Post by: ccrider on December 10, 2007, 11:38:23 AM
quote:
I believe there are "chokers" out there and in every sport.
Randy Peterson says it very well every week. If you have bad ball reaction in practice it is tough to be real confident in the real match! I believe sometimes the "choker" can be one of the best bowlers in the world who simply has a BAD ball reaction that day and can't find the fix!
I believe the reason Wes Malott is not viewed as a choker is that when called on to strike to win he has frequently annhilated the hole but been tapped.
On the other hand Chris Barnes that great bowler has often thrown splits in matches when needing to strike and often these are caused by bad throws(often down into the lane that render his ball....inevitably to be headed to splitsville).
REgards,
Luckylefty
You may be correct, but I must ask, if the ball is thrown correctly, will it strike. Or, is there some unknown force that will stop a properly thrown ball from striking. I know men are not machines. But, I was under the impression that if the ball is thrown correctly to the pocket, all of the pins will fall, and if they don't fall, there was a problem with how the ball was thrown. The problem could be speed, angle to the pocket,etc.
Asked a different way, what percentage of balls strike when being shot by a robot? Do they habitually leave ringing 10's or eight pins?
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Borincano on December 10, 2007, 11:40:47 AM
Post by: BowlingWolf on December 10, 2007, 11:45:18 AM
quote:quote:
I believe there are "chokers" out there and in every sport.
Randy Peterson says it very well every week. If you have bad ball reaction in practice it is tough to be real confident in the real match! I believe sometimes the "choker" can be one of the best bowlers in the world who simply has a BAD ball reaction that day and can't find the fix!
I believe the reason Wes Malott is not viewed as a choker is that when called on to strike to win he has frequently annhilated the hole but been tapped.
On the other hand Chris Barnes that great bowler has often thrown splits in matches when needing to strike and often these are caused by bad throws(often down into the lane that render his ball....inevitably to be headed to splitsville).
REgards,
Luckylefty
You may be correct, but I must ask, if the ball is thrown correctly, will it strike. Or, is there some unknown force that will stop a properly thrown ball from striking. I know men are not machines. But, I was under the impression that if the ball is thrown correctly to the pocket, all of the pins will fall, and if they don't fall, there was a problem with how the ball was thrown. The problem could be speed, angle to the pocket,etc.
Asked a different way, what percentage of balls strike when being shot by a robot? Do they habitually leave ringing 10's or eight pins?
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
You're a sly one ccrider.
First you say you admire Wes, then you do an about-face and blast him as a choker.
Bowling is a game of guesses, or adjustments if you may.
Some are easier than others.
Being that Wes is a right-hander, his adjustments required more severe figuring out, hence, his hesitation as to how much he should cross on the lane (left lane).
Anytime you have to cross many boards, chances are that your intended result is not going to be accomplished.
THAT DOES NOT MAKE WES A CHOKER.
Patrick's adjustments were smaller, being that he was playing near the ditch, and also, incidentally, playing near the ditch provides an angle that is inherently easier to strike from.
--------------------
Regards,
BowlingWolf
Post by: Dan Belcher on December 10, 2007, 11:47:51 AM
Post by: ccrider on December 10, 2007, 11:54:13 AM
quote:
You know, according to your logic, ccrider, everyone who doesn't shoot a 300 every single game is a choker...
Wrong again. According to my logic, when one needs 10 to win, and he throws 9 or less, he choked.
Or, if one needs 161 to win, and he bowls 154, he choked. The person that bowls the 161 did what he needed to do to finish.
My allegiance to Wes is not newly founded. There was a post on here months ago and and I stated then that I thought Wes would be the best this year, if he conquered his nerves.
Again, I would like to know whether the robot chokes regularly, or if, as I have read, when one throws the ball right, all ten pins fall.
Post by: Dan Belcher on December 10, 2007, 12:04:12 PM
And by the way, do you think Chris Warren choked earlier in the broadcast when he stoned a 9 pin off an absolutely beautiful looking shot and lost by one pin?
I still say if you throw the ball pretty good, it's not a choke. Completely f--- up and leave a huge split, you choked.
Post by: pop_1 on December 10, 2007, 12:04:13 PM
quote:quote:
You know, according to your logic, ccrider, everyone who doesn't shoot a 300 every single game is a choker...
Wrong again. According to my logic, when one needs 10 to win, and he throws 9 or less, he choked.
Or, if one needs 161 to win, and he bowls 154, he choked. The person that bowls the 161 did what he needed to do to finish.
My allegiance to Wes is not newly founded. There was a post on here months ago and and I stated then that I thought Wes would be the best this year, if he conquered his nerves.
Again, I would like to know whether the robot chokes regularly, or if, as I have read, when one throws the ball right, all ten pins fall.
But by this theory, it would mean that anyone who loses chokes.
Post by: BowlingWolf on December 10, 2007, 12:08:30 PM
quote:quote:
You know, according to your logic, ccrider, everyone who doesn't shoot a 300 every single game is a choker...
Wrong again. According to my logic, when one needs 10 to win, and he throws 9 or less, he choked.
Or, if one needs 161 to win, and he bowls 154, he choked. The person that bowls the 161 did what he needed to do to finish.
My allegiance to Wes is not newly founded. There was a post on here months ago and and I stated then that I thought Wes would be the best this year, if he conquered his nerves.
Again, I would like to know whether the robot chokes regularly, or if, as I have read, when one throws the ball right, all ten pins fall.
1- The score was 161 to 152
2- Even a robot needs a human to line it up, and then they do NOT strike at will
3- Thowing an absolute pure shot in the pocket does not guarantee a strike
4- Not being able to adjust and make an immediate good guess as where to stand and where to throw the ball, then execute it perfectly, does not make one a choker
I think you are the one that needs to get REAL!
--------------------
Regards,
BowlingWolf
Post by: ccrider on December 10, 2007, 12:14:09 PM
quote:
First off, holding a human being to the same standard as a friggin' robot? You don't ask for much, do you??? No human being is going to throw the ball exactly the same every single time like a robot. (And even if you did, that'd get you in trouble -- did you know the Throwbot has never thrown a 300 because it dries out its line too much hitting it exactly the same each time?)
And by the way, do you think Chris Warren choked earlier in the broadcast when he stoned a 9 pin off an absolutely beautiful looking shot and lost by one pin?
I still say if you throw the ball pretty good, it's not a choke. Completely f--- up and leave a huge split, you choked.
When did I hold a human to the same standard as a robot????? I thought I noted just the opposite --- we are not machines.
My question is whether you strike if you throw the ball right.
Post by: BowlingWolf on December 10, 2007, 12:19:39 PM
quote:quote:
First off, holding a human being to the same standard as a friggin' robot? You don't ask for much, do you??? No human being is going to throw the ball exactly the same every single time like a robot. (And even if you did, that'd get you in trouble -- did you know the Throwbot has never thrown a 300 because it dries out its line too much hitting it exactly the same each time?)
And by the way, do you think Chris Warren choked earlier in the broadcast when he stoned a 9 pin off an absolutely beautiful looking shot and lost by one pin?
I still say if you throw the ball pretty good, it's not a choke. Completely f--- up and leave a huge split, you choked.
When did I hold a human to the same standard as a robot????? I thought I noted just the opposite --- we are not machines.
My question is whether you strike if you throw the ball right.
You should be able to answer that.
Haven't you ever stoned pins, particularly an 8-pin if you're RH, or a 9-pin if you're LH, on a really good shot?
The laws of physics dictate that when round objects are hit they will not necessarily react the same way every time.
--------------------
Regards,
BowlingWolf
Post by: dw23 on December 10, 2007, 12:20:18 PM
--------------------
Thanks,
DW
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on December 10, 2007, 12:21:05 PM
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on December 10, 2007, 12:21:26 PM
quote:
Not always. You can leave the 8 pin on a perfect shot.
--------------------
Thanks,
DW
Tell me about it!
Post by: Dan Belcher on December 10, 2007, 12:22:09 PM
quote:Define "right." There's an uncountable number of ways you can hit the pocket to strike. There's just as many ways to hit the pocket and not strike. You can throw a shot pure and leave a ringing 10 where the 6 goes straight over the neck of the 10, or you can throw it pure and leave a stone 8 pin. In those cases, you're quite literally about 1/8th of an inch away from having a strike. In other cases, you can throw the ball harder than you wanted, hit light, scatter the pins, and have the head pin come off the side wall to take out the 10 pin late and get a lucky strike. So which way is "right?"
My question is whether you strike if you throw the ball right.
You can put any bowler in the world on the lanes and tell him "strike on this next ball or I will kill you," and even the best in the world will sometimes not get a strike.
Post by: RadioActive on December 10, 2007, 12:25:14 PM
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You really don't want to go there.......
Post by: BowlingWolf on December 10, 2007, 12:27:38 PM
quote:
I love bowling! what other sport can you have someone that just started calling one of the best in the world a choker, or even second guessing him?
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You really don't want to go there.......
My sentiments exactly!
--------------------
Regards,
BowlingWolf
Post by: CHawk15 on December 10, 2007, 12:28:09 PM
Barnes, on the other hand, needs good count and a mark to win and throws a bad shot for 7 to lose the match. Barnes has "earned" his choker status over the years, Wes just hasn't got the breaks. His time will come.
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on December 10, 2007, 12:29:33 PM
quote:
I love bowling! what other sport can you have someone that just started calling one of the best in the world a choker, or even second guessing him?
Well commentators do this in other professional sports as well and sometimes they haven't even played the game all. That said, I am definitely not criticizing any of their skills. Usually the way they act on camera can annoy me but definitely not their skills. If you play on a PBA Experience league and then watch how these pros score during the week you can put it in perspective.
Post by: tonybowls on December 10, 2007, 12:32:06 PM
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on December 10, 2007, 12:38:28 PM
quote:
I am glad so many guys responded to my post. Personally I don't think Malott or Barnes are chokers. I just threw this out there because so many of you guys give Chris grief when he loses on TV and I was wondering how he compared to Wes who hasn't won much yet on TV either yet no one seems to call him out on it.
Yeah I could tell by your original post that you weren't actually calling him a choker... I hope people didn't take it that way. You just wanted someone to compare him to Barnes' rep.
Post by: sdbowler on December 10, 2007, 12:40:03 PM
--------------------
Brunswick
Kyle
Post by: ccrider on December 10, 2007, 12:47:46 PM
quote:
I love bowling! what other sport can you have someone that just started calling one of the best in the world a choker, or even second guessing him?
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You really don't want to go there.......
Again, for those of you who are not sophisticated enough to follow, please try to respond to the argument, rather than making personal attacks.
Whether I have bowled 8 months or 80 years does not matter. The question is whether Wes chokes on TV. I have competed in enough sports, and in my profession, enough to know what it is to finish. You probably have someone on your team in the league that consistently steps up and throws a strike in the clutch, along with the guy on your team that you know will choke. It is no different for the pro bowlers. They are the elite in the sport, and given, they perform on the toughest conditions. That is why they get paid to do it. Some of them consistently cut their opponent's throat when they get their opponent down, others choke. Some are on the verge of greatness but may never get there because they do not have the innate instinct and ability to close.
Based on his performance on t.v., Wes has not shown me that he has it. He clearly has the skills. His game is intimidating at times. But when he needs ten and throws 9, time and time again, either it's unlucky or he just does not finish well, i.e. he chokes.
I'll give you odds that Wes's coach is not making excuses for him not closing the deal. Instead, I bet he is trying to get Wes to take his mental game to the next level.
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on December 10, 2007, 12:49:09 PM
Post by: Monster Pike on December 10, 2007, 01:00:26 PM
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Just grip it & rip it!
Post by: Platinum Bowler on December 10, 2007, 01:27:45 PM
quote:
Malott was a choker early in his TV career when he had problems with the foul line against Liz Johnson and threw it in the gutter on the TV pattern against Tommy Jones. This season, his two losses in championship matches aren't because he choked them away. In Indiana against Haugen, he lost because of a couple of ringing 10s and the transition got him last night.
Barnes, on the other hand, needs good count and a mark to win and throws a bad shot for 7 to lose the match. Barnes has "earned" his choker status over the years, Wes just hasn't got the breaks. His time will come.
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B-Car
Post by: DON DRAPER on December 10, 2007, 09:24:11 PM
Post by: on December 10, 2007, 09:52:02 PM
Sometimes we're bowling and things just "fall into place" and other times we seem to work really hard but don't always score. That's life.
These guys are also bowling on very tough patterns where missing target by one board can make a huge difference, as opposed to your typical house shot.
Every one of them who is honest with himself and others will admit that there's also some "luck" (good and bad) in bowling.
"Choking" is not a word that these guys use or understand, or they simply would not be where they are. Their mental games are tough because they've been through the fire so many times, and yet still relish the opportunity to compete on difficult shots, with the whole country watching. No, these guys are very, very good.
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Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Post by: CHawk15 on December 10, 2007, 11:10:54 PM
Post by: ccrider on December 11, 2007, 03:14:28 PM
When it boils down to it, bowling is a somewhat simple game. If I had been bowling 20 years, it would not change the validity or invalidity of what I have said. However, those of you who are mentally challenged and lack the ability to respond to a valid argument, are left with your only recourse --- weak personal attacks. Sadly, I see this all too often from certain members on this board. Of course, this is America and I would not deprive you of your right to free speech, although it does not add much to the discussion.
The fact is that some people have to deal with, and thus better understand, what it is to deal with pressure on a daily basis. Pressure can and does effect how one performs. Some people choke under pressure; some blossom. Clearly, Wes and all of the bowlers who make the show, have progressed through various levels of pressure situations. But that begs the question to some extent. Historically, Wes has not performed well on stage. Some of you may think its bad luck, I think "2 and 15" is a result of the pressure.
,
quote:
Malot two weeks ago throws absolute beautiful shot dead flush and leaves ringing ten and loses to Haugen. Was that a choke? No way. Choking is throwing a bad shot when it is on the line. Bad break is not carrying when you do perform. Calling any pro a choker is just a joke. Wait until you get up there and have to make a ten pin to win a $1,000 tourney. Or have to throw a strike for your first 300. Multiply that by a factor of 1000 when the ABC Masters is on the line or a tour exemption is on the line.
ccrider, get off your high horse. Your posts come off as arrogant. Tone it down a bit and people might try to see your view point. I will be totally honest and tell you that I cannot take a guy a guy serious when they have only bowled for one year and has a five ball "arsenal" with six more waiting to be drilled up. Tells me you are not experienced enough to understand what choking in bowling is really all about. My opinion.
Post by: 86camaroman on December 11, 2007, 03:29:04 PM
Post by: BowlingWolf on December 11, 2007, 03:38:42 PM
Seems like there's only one intelligent poster on this particular thread, and if he says that Wes choked, well, by Golly, Wes choked, and the rest of us don't have a clue.
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Regards,
BowlingWolf
Post by: LuckyLefty on December 11, 2007, 03:45:10 PM
Kite A great qualifier...and a great major player as long as he didn't have a real chance to win...then finally he won a big one the US open and this cleared his record with the fans....but...frankly he would get tight on the final day.
I believe there are so many levels of choking and types that many people don't understand what they are seeing.
I really know golf so I'll try to make my analogies there.
Mike Weir....a crooked driver of the golf ball with a small technique flaw....sometimes looks unflappable and then he gets in trouble of the tee a few times and it snowballs out of control. Then beats Tiger in match play in the Presidents cup.
Greg Norman a great driver of the golf ball with a technique flaw in his iron game....right to rights when swinging hard at it and doesn't know how to fix it! Loses a bunch of majors when the premium is on precision to the greens and his short game can't bail him out. Note I made some money on Norman's 96 master's collapse and the bet was placed when he had a 12 shot lead on Faldo!
(I like Norman and was rooting FOR Him).
SO in bowling.....most of the time Chris Barnes would screw the ball in the lane and end up with a split due to the decreased velocity. Now he seems to throw it better and just be throwing balls that are great for the early session but not enough backend for the conditions of TV?? My view.
As to Wes Malott. The shots he throws under pressure look great to me. So languid and relaxed and no pull(the usual mistake of all who are tight).
But maybe they are just a little wider a little softer(that's why they recover so well) than usual and end up giving him those ringing 10s and 9 pins he seems to get when he throws well at the end of the match.
REgards,
LUckylefty
PS he sure looks good to ME while under pressure that Wes Malott!
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: Danes07 on December 11, 2007, 03:56:20 PM
quote:quote:
You know, according to your logic, ccrider, everyone who doesn't shoot a 300 every single game is a choker...
Wrong again. According to my logic, when one needs 10 to win, and he throws 9 or less, he choked.
Or, if one needs 161 to win, and he bowls 154, he choked. The person that bowls the 161 did what he needed to do to finish.
My allegiance to Wes is not newly founded. There was a post on here months ago and and I stated then that I thought Wes would be the best this year, if he conquered his nerves.
Again, I would like to know whether the robot chokes regularly, or if, as I have read, when one throws the ball right, all ten pins fall.
So, by your logic...I get up in the 10th frame needing a strike to win. I execute my shot perfectly and hit dead flush in the hole and leave the ringing 10 pin of all time....that makes me a choker?
If you want to believe this, by all means go right ahead....the rest of us centered in reality know the difference between making a good shot and getting tapped and letting the pressure get to you and making a poor shot.
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University at Albany 2007
-Let's Go Danes-
Post by: LuckyLefty on December 12, 2007, 07:50:45 AM
Are they just throwing the same line??
In fact with a little intelligent application he could be programed and adjusted to shoot 900 every few sets! I THINK!
REgards,
LUckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
Post by: BowlingWolf on December 12, 2007, 09:33:32 AM
quote:
I would believe if throwbot was adjusted slightly during the game he could be set up to throw a 300 nearly ever time!
Are they just throwing the same line??
In fact with a little intelligent application he could be programed and adjusted to shoot 900 every few sets! I THINK!
REgards,
LUckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
While the possibility of throwbot throwing 300s and 900s with human aided adjustments certainly appears feasible due to the machine's uncanny accuracy, there exist a couple of elements that might just mess up that equation.
For one thing, the human operators would have to make perfect adjustments, and again, not even the best pros can do that, and secondly, even if every adjustment was perfect, every shot would need to be a strike, which as we know (except perhaps for one very obdurate respondent on this thread that rejects logical replies), is an accomplishment that is quite difficult to attain.
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Regards,
BowlingWolf
Post by: ccrider on December 12, 2007, 07:02:23 PM
Again, for the mentally challenged, what does how long I have bowled have to do with the issue on the table. From an analytical standpoint, the answer is nothing. Wes has not come through on T.V., and this would be true, even if I had been bowling for 20 years.
What does how many bowling balls I have purchased have to do with whether Wes has chokes under pressure? If this matters, maybe Wes should contact me and ask me to purchase fewer or more balls. Your arguments in this regard are absurd.
I made no affirmative statement about the robot. I asked a question which has been answered.
I agree that showing up at the big dance time and time again does help some to improve on there performance. Maybe Wes will improve over time, maybe he will not.
Make whatever excuses you like. I still say, if you get up and throw 9 when you need 10, over and over again, while your opponent makes 10 when he needs it and beats you, you are choking. This presumes that one has the talent and ability to make the shot, but fails to execute and make the shot. Clearly, Wes having the talent is not an issue.
It can't be a "perfect" shot if you leave a pin. It may look perfect, but the "perfect" shot knocks ten pins down. I agree, the "perfect" shot changes based on lane conditions. However, these guys are the elite and it is their job to read and adjust to the changes. This is not easy. It was not meant to be. The best of the elite figure it out and outperform the rest over time. Wes has not done this to date. I happen to think that his failure to do so is not based on his inability to do it. I think it is his nerves.
Also, I don't take pity for any of you who do not have the mental discipline to address argument, and regress to personal attacks. I find it quite amusing. The bad thing is, those of you who do this don't seem to understand that you serve no purpose in addressing the matter on the table.
Last, I laugh at the remark about being backed or painted into a corner. Get real. We are talking about bowling. This is a game. Everyone has a right to their opinion.
Now, for all of you that say that Wes has not choked on T.V., why is he 2 and 15??? Bad luck. If so, let's buy him a new good luck charm, the same model that WRW, PW or ND uses. If not, let's give him time and see if he conquers his nerves, because that is clearly the only thing holding him back.
quote:
Believe me, I know the difference between arrogance and intelligence. It is always the psuedo-intellegencia that hides behind the oh-so sanctimonius attitude of taking pity on us poor un-washed wretches who can only hope to comprehend one tenth of what your true genius has to offer us.
Say what you will. You still have only bowled for a year. You still are trying to buy a game as evidenced by your truly wonderous arsenal.
So.....I don't know if you are just young and because of your callowness has been ineffectively trying to prove your point or if you are older guy who has foolishly painted himself in a corner and is kicking himself for doing so when he knows better.
PS You can look all these words up in a dictionary if you don't understand them, ccrider.
Post by: charlest on December 13, 2007, 05:56:39 AM
quote:[/quote]
Luckylefty
You may be correct, but I must ask, if the ball is thrown correctly, will it strike. Or, is there some unknown force that will stop a properly thrown ball from striking. I know men are not machines. But, I was under the impression that if the ball is thrown correctly to the pocket, all of the pins will fall, and if they don't fall, there was a problem with how the ball was thrown. The problem could be speed, angle to the pocket,etc.
Asked a different way, what percentage of balls strike when being shot by a robot? Do they habitually leave ringing 10's or eight pins?
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
This does reflect that you are very new to bowling. Observation over time will let you see that many, many balls thrown that look absolutely dead perfect will leave a stoned 7, 8, 9, or 10 pins PLUS sometimes the ball will hit that first patch of carrydown never before seen on that lane and will therefore hit light to sometimes carry a swishing strike but may more often leave almost anything from a 2 to 4 to 7 pin to possible 7 - 10.
All that does not detract from the fact that the bowler did NOT choke and did execute almost a perfect release hitting his target with excellent release and ball speed.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unoffical Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: charlest on December 13, 2007, 06:09:22 AM
quote:quote:
You know, according to your logic, ccrider, everyone who doesn't shoot a 300 every single game is a choker...
Wrong again. According to my logic, when one needs 10 to win, and he throws 9 or less, he choked.
...
Again, I would like to know whether the robot chokes regularly, or if, as I have read, when one throws the ball right, all ten pins fall.
You are wrong as I already replied above. There are too many circumstances where 9 is as godd as you will ever get. There is just too much luckinvovled with getting a strike, even with a perfect delivery.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unoffical Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: charlest on December 13, 2007, 06:29:09 AM
quote:
...
It can't be a "perfect" shot if you leave a pin. It may look perfect, but the "perfect" shot knocks ten pins down.
Again, this is where you are DEAD wrong and reflects your lack of experience. It may be easier for you to acknowledge once it happens to you PERSONALLY 30 or 40 times. Then you will understand, NOT because we told you so, BUT because you experienced it yourself.
quote:
I agree, the "perfect" shot changes based on lane conditions. However, these guys are the elite and it is their job to read and adjust to the changes. This is not easy. It was not meant to be. The best of the elite figure it out and outperform the rest over time.
Again, you are implying that everyone ONLY loses the big TV game because they choked. This is wrong. Again you will probably only understand what we say when you experience it yourself.
quote:
Wes has not done this to date. I happen to think that his failure to do so is not based on his inability to do it. I think it is his nerves.
No one, except maybe Dick Ritger, has not choked due to nerves or overthinking. Every winner from the very best, Earl Anthony, WRW, Dick Weber, has failed to winat sometime. I mention Dick Ritger because his heart beat was measured during one of hese pressure packed game. Like a Zen mystic, he heartbeat actually went down instead of up by 20 - 50 beats.
quote:
Also, I don't take pity for any of you who do not have the mental discipline to address argument, and regress to personal attacks. I find it quite amusing. The bad thing is, those of you who do this don't seem to understand that you serve no purpose in addressing the matter on the table.
I make no personal attacks. I think you have not seen enough nor have you experienced enough in bowling to make these statements. Time will show you what we cannot make you understand or you refuse to think about.
quote:
Last, I laugh at the remark about being backed or painted into a corner. Get real. We are talking about bowling. This is a game. Everyone has a right to their opinion.
You have a right to your opinion; yo uhave no right to tell us we are wrong in our opinion. You also have no right to deny that experience can show you what we know. That is the attitude of the teenager who thinks all adults are stupid.
quote:
Now, for all of you that say that Wes has not choked on T.V., why is he 2 and 15??? Bad luck. If so, let's buy him a new good luck charm, the same model that WRW, PW or ND uses.
This is inexperience talking and knowit-all arrogance at its zenith. That is NOT a personal attack. That is an anaylsis of your words.
quote:
If not, let's give him time and see if he conquers his nerves, because that is clearly the only thing holding him back.
This is the same because it assumes your assumptions, based on your inexperience in the observation and in the execution, is correct.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unoffical Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: BowlingWolf on December 13, 2007, 06:54:12 AM
On top of it all, he comes off as if he is being personally slandered, when in fact it is he that makes the "personal attacks" with his pugnacious and senseless comments, which ultimately compel others to respond in the same manner as his, but with one big difference: rational discernment.
"You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it."
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Regards,
BowlingWolf
Post by: Big Jake on December 13, 2007, 07:06:27 AM
quote:
It can't be a "perfect" shot if you leave a pin. It may look perfect, but the "perfect" shot knocks ten pins down.
Wrong, I think you have the term "perfect" shot confused with the word "results"
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Big Jake
Post by: ccrider on December 13, 2007, 01:14:49 PM
Quote
The problem is your argument is full of holes.
That is fine if you are correct, show me the holes. I appreciate the focus on the argument.
The perfect shot does not and can not knock all ten pins down every time. The pins will not react the same way every time. You ever hear of Chaos Theory.
Yes. But I am not sure that this is what was happening with Wes each time he lost on T.V. Is that what you believe?
You haven't been bowling long enough to make these statements.
Says who?? How long do you have to bowl to have an opinion? Perhaps what you are trying to say is that my opinion does not carry weight with you because I have not bowled long enough. That, I have no problem with. Nonetheless, I do not think that the number of years that I have bowled has any bearing on whether a bowler is choking on T.V. or not.
I have and some of my fellow league bowlers have seen pins on the deck spinning after a strike spin themselves back to upright position. Never thought it was possible until I saw it with my own two eyes. Did that mean I choked or the other bowler choked. NO! In all of your "extensive reading" did you ever come across the term "fast eight"? Where the two pin unexplicably shoots over the 4 pin instead of taking it and the seven pin out? As much as you want to deny it, a strike requires some luck.
I have seen pins knocked back up but not spin back up. Once I saw a pin knock a pin out of the gutter and stand it back up on the lane. I have seen pins slide over a foot and not fall. I agree that at times luck intervenes, just not repeatedly. Of course, the pins sliding in my opinion are a result of lane condition.
Throwing the ball the same way every time into the pocket with the same entry angle every time increases the PROBABILITY of striking but does not GUARANTEE a strike. An inanimate object set in motion by a moving object and encountering other inanimate objects in a closed space will not react in a 100 percent predictable manner.
"I feel sorry for you."
Thank you for your pity. Seriously, this is not that serious.
There is no substitute for actual experience.
Your extensive reading on the subject of bowling won't save you when the tourney is on the line. Only being in the same situation over and over will prepare you for the winning moment. Your pompous attitude will cause you to never enjoy bowling if you think that you failed every time you don't get a strike. Please make sure that you do all your bowling by yourself so your attitude doesn't infect other beginners that might actually enjoy the sport.
I bowl in league, and additionally about 15 games a week. We have a good time. I simply choose to believe that I have control over whether I strike or not--- at least most of the time. If I leave a solid 10, I choose not to blame the lanes, the ball or the bowling gods. I try to see what I need to do to knock down ten the next time. Just my take on it. I have not read any books on how the pros approach the mental aspect of the game, but I would be willing to bet that they do not blame unsuccessful outcomes on the lanes, the balls or the bowling gods.
By the way, I have never played professional football, but I know the Miami Dolphins are choking.
Post by: APheLion on December 13, 2007, 07:09:27 PM
ok, i was watching the round of 8 on XtraFrame, i was hearing some comments from Ryan Shaffer saying that Chris Barnes sometimes goes on tv playin maybe his D game since he has lots of tricks. Compare to WRW who has a more simplified game, Chris has to make decisions and sometimes not playin his A game or simply making a bad decision for a important frame is making him pay for it.
i would say for people who knows Barnes, might know that he doesnt choke, but rather making poor decisions on a critical moment or hes not comfortable with his C or D game and make an errant shot
hope this information is useful
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When a house bowler misses the mark, misses the break point and strike, for many ppl its called a wallshot. When a pro does that its call adjustment
When a house bowler gets his finger stuck in the ball and fall on the lanes, for many ppl its called lame bowler. When a pro does that its called the Machuga flop! ha i like this one.