BallReviews
General Category => PBA => Topic started by: redtop on December 17, 2013, 07:35:23 PM
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Does anyone else have a problem believing in a level playing field when
3 right-handers can't shoot above 203, and the sole left-hander can't shoot below
235? I'm not here to stoke the usual flames about lefties always having an easier
lane condition, because that simply isn't true. Some would argue that the pattern
just breaks down that way, but this is hard to believe when the number of games
bowled on the pair is only 6! If a pattern can't hold up equitably for lefties and righties over a measly 6 games, it simply shouldn't be used. Watching this particular telecast, I am reminded again of what a lousy job the PBA is doing marketing the sport--let's not forget the lack of live coverage, and how about the recent posting that only Dexter shoes will be allowed on Tour? I haven't checked, but they're probably owned by Storm. Is this kind of totalitarian clubbiness really necessary?
It really looks bad.
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The number of games may have been few, but the bowlers practice on the lanes quite a bit before the show. During that time the pros usually try to break the oil down in some way. It was pretty obvious each of the righties had their own idea on how to do that instead of working together, and that made for a total cluster on the show. Also, with the tv lights the oil transitions way way faster, which is why pros lose the shot so often mid game.
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Still leaves the question unanswered: why should a particularly handed bowler
be enabled to so easily dominate opposite handed bowlers of equal ability? All these
folks are at the same basic skill level.
Why should the righties have to work together to "manufacture" a shot? The sole
lefty got to play HIS own game.
If I am to accept your explanation, then winning or losing comes down to some sort of collusion among the same-handed players; none of them is free, as was the sole lefty in this case, to let his freak flag fly. Something's rotten in Denmark, but I'm not sure what . . .
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Ciminelli's ability to womp on everyone had nothing to do with inequality in the pattern laid down and everything to do with being the only person on that side of the lane. In practice and on the show he could set the lane up how he liked it, and no one else could mess it up. The same isn't true for the right handers, simply because there were three of them. The righties don't have to manufacture a shot, as you put it, but they do have to avoid screwing it up, which they failed at.
Not to mention I think Ciminelli is probably better than Smallwood and Kretzer put together...
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The allotted amount of time to practice on the tv pair prior to the next seeds match was decreased to less time than last year's WSOB. PBA tried doing this to limit the guys from changing the "integrity" of the pattern.
Whether or not it worked remains arguable.
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I wouldn't overthink it. It's just how the tournament played out. If the show had 5 bowlers, PA would have been on. Then things may have been different. 5 bowlers may have been a better show than the boring TO / team event - which has zero drama.
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Does anyone else have a problem believing in a level playing field when
3 right-handers can't shoot above 203, and the sole left-hander can't shoot below
235? I'm not here to stoke the usual flames about lefties always having an easier
lane condition, because that simply isn't true. Some would argue that the pattern
just breaks down that way, but this is hard to believe when the number of games
bowled on the pair is only 6! If a pattern can't hold up equitably for lefties and righties over a measly 6 games, it simply shouldn't be used. Watching this particular telecast, I am reminded again of what a lousy job the PBA is doing marketing the sport--let's not forget the lack of live coverage, and how about the recent posting that only Dexter shoes will be allowed on Tour? I haven't checked, but they're probably owned by Storm. Is this kind of totalitarian clubbiness really necessary?
It really looks bad.
It is also interesting how Ciminelli could play the same spot on the lane with the same ball on two completely different patterns. Ryan is a great bowler. Don't get me wrong. But I thought the reasoning to have 5 different patterns was so each pattern has its own characteristics of where each pattern should be played. So....Chameleon, Cheetah, and Viper can all be played outside by 5-8 boards? I guess since the bowlers are given 20-30 minutes to carve their shot; if they took a ball at 500 abralon and piped it up 3-4-5, they could create some hook area out there.
What I would like to see for 5 different patterns: is something like Bear, Badger, Scorpion, Viper or Chameleon, and Wolf. Have one really long pattern, one really short pattern, one extremely flat pattern (modified US Open), one medium length pattern, and maybe even the USBC Tournament pattern just to shake it up a bit.
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Did you also post a few weeks ago when Parker Bohn had air on the left lane? One hour of practice, differences in lanes, lights and many other variables not worth mentioning. No matter what pattern is on the lane, someone will always have an edge. Ciminelli threw the ball pretty well and had good ball reaction. That is always a winning combination.
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I still maintain that these players are of approximately equal talent; otherwise they wouldn't be there. Their skill levels, if allowed expression, could never produce the huge disparity in scoring seen at the Chameleon event. And then we would have competitive, close matches worth watching. What, all three righties had a bad hair day? Judging from the Chameleon results, obviously the amount of practice prior to each match, in combination with the 3-1 imbalance in bowler handedness, did indeed compromise the "integrity" of the pattern. How about everyone restricted to practice on a separate pair (if possible; arena settings often preclude this)? Bowlers at this level really just need to loosen up, and can learn ENOUGH by watching the ball reaction of same-handed others. A sole lefty or rightie already has the advantage of being the only one on the road. Advancing by winning matches thus has the added EARNED bonus of gaining familiarity with the pair, and the TV pair itself has a better chance of playing neutral.
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So the guy that won a match earned the right to be familiar with the pair but the guy coming into that match didn't by being the higher seed and should line himself up by watching the others? Yikes.
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I'm guessing yes, we can't have everything--some "right," somewhere, has to be compromised to level the playing field. Unless the patterns are designed to be challenging to everyone from the get-go.
Interesting the amount of commentary this topic has generated--I think that clearly shows that things just aren't right. It would also be instructive if some pros had the
courage to speak freely on this issue; but I would guess they are hamstrung by peer pressure, sponsors, and fear of PBA blowback. Is this an accurate scenario? Or I am just ranting, as is often my habit?
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TV is no way to judge the equity.
For example, how many times did Barnes make the TV show and lose? People make a big deal because he didn't win on TV. The key is how many shows he made. He was beating everyone's ass every week.
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Well, Chris Barnes, that's a whole other topic.
What are us peons to judge by if not TV? And from the PBA's point
of view, this is their best chance to get it right, to show real competition--and live,
if possible. Gimmickry like blue oil and trick shot competitions just don't cut it.
They just show desperation at a shrinking audience.
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Well his speed advantage is great and his fundamentals are his best ever!
Regards,
Luckylefty
Plus as Randy said he can do two things to set up pattern throw dull or throw plastic.
In general note lefties have not been dominating the tour for quite a few years.
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If you want to judge equality look at the results for qualifying. If you want to watch bowling on TV, tune in.
The audience is shrinking regardless of what they do. They are doing the team nonsense to have the few familiar faces the PBA has on TV every week. They did the best they could to make Belmonte a familiar face, but the rest of the guys people recognize are getting old.
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itsallaboutme
+1 (x100,000)
- Bowling is declining on many levels
- Bowlers in-the-know don't respect PBA bowling (but complain about its downfall)
- Handicap tournaments are largely more profitable than your average PBA event(s)
- Sandbagging is at an all time high
- People want a ball both that hooks up front and downlane (I'm sure pro shoppers can relate, lol)
The level of complaining about bowling pitfalls seems more common than sticking together and helping our sport continue to have longevity...
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If you want equality why not have a fresh shot for each match?
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Okay...
You do realize they practice for quite some time before the match. So if more righties well then they will blow the pattern up more in practice.
Or you can watch this and learn...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P7ZOLdxr3c
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Plus knowing Dom...I am sure he would love the ball back in the 6th......that was the match right there...
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srlunatic
^ is correct... as I've chimed in earlier... this years WSOB practice time on the tv pair was limited from last years WSOB (commissioners ruling)...
Wherever this is going who knows, lol... (I was on set at last years WSOB, blah blah)...
I'd imagine PBA likely wanted to change things up a bit with decreasing tv pair practice which likely prevents less change to pattern shape for the challenger (hence the stub-lane which was/is off-camera).
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I mean oil before EACH match ..... both players could have 1 or 2 practise shots on each lane then start the match.
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srlunatic
That left lane was and still sucks (even from last year)... imo having the show on the actual lanes at the Point would be better for the players.
Although I'd imagine South Point needs those lanes back asap as their open play is unreal. Hmm, $6 a game not including shoe rental for a over a PBA telecast which shuts down the whole half of the house (for no money)... hmm....
lol
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Don't want to speak for Dom....but I am sure that if he strikes in the 6th it is a totally different match and result...
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If South Point can pay for Gaughan's kid to go racing, keeping the bowling center closed for a couple more days ain't gonna make a bit of difference in the whole scheme of things.
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Overall very uninformed
Does anyone else have a problem believing in a level playing field when
3 right-handers can't shoot above 203, and the sole left-hander can't shoot below
235? I'm not here to stoke the usual flames about lefties always having an easier
lane condition, because that simply isn't true. Some would argue that the pattern
just breaks down that way, but this is hard to believe when the number of games
bowled on the pair is only 6! If a pattern can't hold up equitably for lefties and righties over a measly 6 games, it simply shouldn't be used. Watching this particular telecast, I am reminded again of what a lousy job the PBA is doing marketing the sport--let's not forget the lack of live coverage, and how about the recent posting that only Dexter shoes will be allowed on Tour? I haven't checked, but they're probably owned by Storm. Is this kind of totalitarian clubbiness really necessary?
It really looks bad.
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Re: video link from SR Lunatic. Great commercial for Storm! Yeah, I learned
a lot (not!).
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Never understood why they allow them to break it down in the first place. Its almost like allowing golfers to dig a channel so the ball can roll into the whole.
Anyways the lefty had the advantage but as the week before that proved you still gotta make good shots. He did that this week, he didn't the week before and lost in the title match.
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The analogy with golf is an interesting one, and I think has some merit.
I wonder what the history of "lane grooming" is. Probably over the years it
has moved from the subtle, "don't ask, don't tell" philosophy to today's blatant,
in your face with the abralon pads attitude.
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What about the tournament shifts? Some post higher scores on the fresh and some do on the broken down, so why does the pattern have to be fresh for 3-4 games?
There is no way they blow apart the integrity of the pattern in practice. They may shape it some, but the pattern is still there. They aren't turning the Chameleon into a house shot with a few minutes of practice.
I say let them do as they will. It's becoming part of the sport. If there were three lefties, the show would have gone the same way, with Randy talking about how the righty can do whatever he wants. If that were the case, I don't think this would be such a polarizing topic.
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As one poster has posted twice, why not re-oil after each match?
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Maybe they should re-oil after each shot.
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With this wonderfully humorous comment--"Why don't we re-oil
after each shot?"--I propose closing this topic. That we are driven to
absurdity sums it up perfectly.
Now, let's all go out and do what we enjoy--knock down some pins!
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Never understood why they allow them to break it down in the first place. Its almost like allowing golfers to dig a channel so the ball can roll into the whole.
Anyways the lefty had the advantage but as the week before that proved you still gotta make good shots. He did that this week, he didn't the week before and lost in the title match.
It is ok to wear a defense down in football so as the game goes on it becomes easier to run the ball. In Baseball teams try to get the starting pitcher out of the game so they get to the to the bull pen pitchers how is breaking a pattern down any different? You understand that you break down the pattern to right?
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Yes, we all break it down just by bowling. But we use our normal strike balls,
not equivalents of sandpaper and teflon that will never be used in actual play.
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The reality is the PBA is going to make sure the left gets theirs and what the right did or didn't do may have had no effect.
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Maybe since he was the only lefty to make both shows we should just stop and say nice bowling. It's not like it was four left handers in the step ladder.
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Yes, we all break it down just by bowling. But we use our normal strike balls,
not equivalents of sandpaper and teflon that will never be used in actual play.
But how is it different than a running back and o line breaking down a defense as a game goes on or a qb calling a audible?
Someone answer that question.
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Match play bowling is not a team sport.
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But it is beneficial to you as a bowler to open the lanes up on a difficult shot to give yourself the best chance to score. Correct?
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But it is beneficial to you as a bowler to open the lanes up on a difficult shot to give yourself the best chance to score. Correct?
Just stop, youre making too much sense.
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But it is beneficial to you as a bowler to open the lanes up on a difficult shot to give yourself the best chance to score. Correct?
Just stop, youre making too much sense.
Lmao!
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I don't care if it's legal or makes sense; they give the pros way too much time to change the pattern. It's not a right vs. left thing. Sometimes the righties make things worse by not working together or carving too deep to start. I can't even imagine what Parker did 2 weeks ago to make his look so bad on one lane. If they put out a 48' heavy pattern ("designed" to play in), bowlers shouldn't have enough time and resources to set up a wall on the 5 board. If you are WRW or Duke or Barnes and accurate enough to play there, fine, but you shouldn't be able to completely change the pattern that was put out. Why even have different patterns if they are going to all look the same after they burn them up where they want to?
Heck, the shot got better and better as the night went on for my two weeks on Scorpion and Bear because eventually my original line dried out a bit and I was able use it as I moved in, but in no way should I have been given the chance to show up and bowl 2 games before with a piece of charcoal 3 boards right of where I planned to start game 1.
To use Mainzer's analogy, running plays affect the defense by making them more tired as the game goes on. They didn't demand that they run 20 laps around the field before the game started. In bowling every shot affects the lane, but no one should be allowed to blatantly change the lane.
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The righties would have faired better if they had thrown plastic down the track on the left side during warm up.
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Practice has been limited this season as stated above.
Lets face it any ball used today is gonna change the pattern. When given practice time you gotta start somewhere, track is the most logical spot. So should bowlers not be allowed to practice in the track area?
Only use plastic?
I don't care if it's legal or makes sense; they give the pros way too much time to change the pattern. It's not a right vs. left thing. Sometimes the righties make things worse by not working together or carving too deep to start. I can't even imagine what Parker did 2 weeks ago to make his look so bad on one lane. If they put out a 48' heavy pattern ("designed" to play in), bowlers shouldn't have enough time and resources to set up a wall on the 5 board. If you are WRW or Duke or Barnes and accurate enough to play there, fine, but you shouldn't be able to completely change the pattern that was put out. Why even have different patterns if they are going to all look the same after they burn them up where they want to?
Heck, the shot got better and better as the night went on for my two weeks on Scorpion and Bear because eventually my original line dried out a bit and I was able use it as I moved in, but in no way should I have been given the chance to show up and bowl 2 games before with a piece of charcoal 3 boards right of where I planned to start game 1.
To use Mainzer's analogy, running plays affect the defense by making them more tired as the game goes on. They didn't demand that they run 20 laps around the field before the game started. In bowling every shot affects the lane, but no one should be allowed to blatantly change the lane.
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I saw that (briefly, but there was so much nonsense in the early posts that I might have blown past it), but does anyone know how much time they get on the TV pair this year as opposed to previous years?
No one said anything about not being able to practice where they want or throwing any particular type of ball. And I 'm sure as you know (even though you said otherwise), the track isn't the logical place to start on 8 or 9 different patterns. What is stupid, in my opinion, is allowing them to use 90% of the time to obliterate the pattern into something completely different than what was put down. There are different patterns with different characteristics for a reason. Why not just let them throw on a 40' house shot each week? That would be exciting. :o
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The lefty played up the track. That is why I said it. I bet it would not be difficult to lay down a fresh pattern after each match.
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I wrote a TL;DR post and erased it. This is one TV final out of how many in the history of the sport? Just as often as a lefty having a great look and trainwrecking the other finalists, the only lefty on the show wont be able to find a look and promptly gets sent home a runner up.
To address the numerous suggestions to reoil, Transition always has been, always will be, and always should be, the most important part of bowling. The shots in game 9 are just as valuable as the shots in game one. I've made my fair share of money with big games late in sets, and have historically struggled on fresh. To bowl on absolute fresh every game takes away from the importance of a bowler to be able to judge transition, and judging transition is how they got there in the first place
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Makes sense. Still l don't see playing golf against you with you on a put put course and me on a masters course as a fair test of our comparable skills.
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Come back next week, your course will be easier :)
They could probably lay down the same pattern on the same pair of lanes the next day, and the righties take a different strategy in practice and they play easier, and we dont see the murdering that we did.
Lets also not rule out the possibility that ciminelli was simply beyond locked in for 3 games on TV. We've all seen bowlers throw 250s with no room for error because they are throwing unexplainably great shots every single shot.
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I'm late to the party it seems. But let me add this:
Re-oiling after every game is stupid. Adjusting to the changing shot is a big part of bowling and should not be lost. Plus, it takes away from the "fairness" some of you are looking for. Every house has it's own topography. From when the lanes were built and how they have changed from years (or decades in some cases) of play. This factors into how the ball reacts. If you reoil, you could give one side, or the other an even greater advantage. And let's not even discuss the cost of oil needed to do that. Let's just agree this is something to forget.
Practice time before a show. It has always amazed me the amount of practice time the PBA bowlers received on the TV pair prior to the start of competition. In the past, the bowling balls would not make that much of an impact on the pattern, even with time. But today's balls can blow open a pattern in a matter of minutes. Add in the TV lights and the heat they generate and you can easily destroy a pattern. Limiting this time, as has been mentioned here a few times is a good thing. But it won't stop them from changing the shot based on today's balls and the added help the lights give. It's going to happen. The people who deal with it best will win.
What you saw here goes back to a topic in the USBC section around working together. When you have bowlers with different styles all trying to do their own thing, you wind up making the pattern play harder than it should. That is what happened on the right side here. If the 3 right handers would have worked together, they could have broken the lanes down in a more controlled fashion and perhaps given themselves a better look. There have been many times where Randy has spoken about how the righties talked before the show and tried to work together in order to not make it so easy on the one or two lefties on the show. They want to work together so they don't interfere with each other and create an incredibly hard scoring pattern. The bowler, no matter which hand they throw with, still need to execute and make good shots, but they aren't hindering themselves from the start.
Lastly, how many people remember a few years ago, when the lefties were dominating. PA, Jason Couch, Parker Bohn seemed to be on TV every week. The next year, I think there was only 1 lefty that made a TV show. Since then, the PBA has done a good job of putting out as fair a shot as possible when it comes to right vs. left. If the PBA was trying to make anything happen, it would be to have Belmo on every single show, as he is the bowler they are trying to make the face of the PBA. So those of you who think there is really some conspiracy going on here, I have got one thing to say to you......get real, grow up, and stop whining about something you obviously know nothing about.
Now back to your regularly scheduled insanity
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Jorge, why is reoiling after each game of a stepladder final stupid? Why oil at all?
Do you think it makes sense to assume that the right handed bowlers in a stepladder final are going to take time to discuss a plan to break down the right side of the lanes? If so, why should they have to? The obvious answer is so that they will have a shot that is as playable as the left side.
Why not just give each bowler in the stepladder the same shot at the start. Then they each can focus on how they break the lane down and how they execute shot.
The present system where the sole lefty is bowling the equivalent of a putt putt golf course while the fourth righty is bowling on a master's level course created with all the sand traps, and fast runs, by the right handed bowler that preceded him, seems, if one must say, "stupid."