BallReviews
Equipment Boards => Radical => Topic started by: newguy on November 25, 2015, 12:14:19 PM
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go to the Radical Facebook page to see the latest comparison video with the Guru Supreme also we have a surface friction comparison chart and the impact of the lane surface on your ball. Its a real eye opener.
Phil
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Sorry, I don't do facebook. Never have, never will.
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I own quite a few Radical balls but I don't do Facepalm either. Sorry, Facebook.
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I don't do Facebook; it is a place for children to entertain one another. Bowling is not a "Social Media"; it is a game and a sport. Please post to a bowling web site. Bowlers are interested in what a manufacturer has to say.
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"Go to Facebook" instead of your own website? Did I really just read that?
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"Go to Facebook" instead of your own website? Did I really just read that?
More companies are providing up to date information on their respective FB pages. Social media is a fact of life, and companies are simply going where the traffic already is.
A few of the bowling tournament clubs I belong to do all their communication through their FB pages. Same with the Sport Shot League I bowl in.
Facebook is much more than just posting pictures and shooting the breeze with buddies. I don't understand why anyone would ignore it in this day and age.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AfsNDCInlk
As strong as the Guru Supreme looks in the vid, I was most blown away by how much lane shine effects the surface grit of the bowling ball. First thing I did after watching this vid was hit the spinner.
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Steven,
That might be, but I do not do Facebook, and I also never will.
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Wow I should called you before we did the video. You missed the point. Watch it again and learn about surface changes do to the lane friction. The paradox was not a second. All we drilled the same. The most important part was the initial surface after ten games than all leveled out after 20 so the stating friction didn't matter after 20 games.
But thank you for you insightful input.
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That wasn't the purpose of the test. It was a friction info video. It did show that the supreme was the smoothest finish and still performed better than the competition. Did you know about box finish listed is dramatically different that that listed and did you know that after 20 games they would be relatively the same. I have to bet not because I didn't even know that. I learned something from the test. Did you?
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Steven,
That might be, but I do not do Facebook, and I also never will.
Yes, it be. ;)
I don't make the rules. FB is a growing alternate website reality and it's increasing importance for communication is not going away. Protesting by not joining will accomplish nothing. You can take the stance of "I do not do Facebook" and miss out, or sign up to get information otherwise not available to you.
With the FB privacy settings available, you can use FB for nothing more than accessing private groups and company information not available elsewhere. Your choice. Whatever.
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That wasn't the purpose of the test. It was a friction info video. It did show that the supreme was the smoothest finish and still performed better than the competition. Did you know about box finish listed is dramatically different that that listed and did you know that after 20 games they would be relatively the same. I have to bet not because I didn't even know that. I learned something from the test. Did you?
yes. This info is nothing new to many PSO's. My question is, which ball lost the most hook? The Guru Master is supposed to be the strongest ball on the market by 5 boards, per Radical. But after 20, it is about 1 board stronger than the Menace. Which is what I saw.
P.S.- Motiv lists the exact balls surface on the box via Laser scan. They do not have the conflicting surfaces as the 4 balls that you have shown do. Just letting you know is all.
so you are telling me they laser scan every ball they make as they come down the production line. I really doubt that.
The menace was the closer to the supreme than any of the rest. And unless you had a robot throwing the ball and a CATS reader like we have you statement can not be validate. Lastly you are saying that you knew that a ball listed at 500 /2000 was actually 1440. Again I find that hard to believe. However you are as intitled to you opinions as am I. Have a great holiday.
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Thank you. But using between 1200 and 1500 is a big gap. Apparently I'm easily impressed. But I am open minded. Once again thank you for your input and insightful comments. I think we have worn this topic out.
Good luck to you. And have a Happy Thanksgiving
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Yes, it is my choice and I choose not to!!!
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Yes, it is my choice and I choose not to!!!
That's fine, and that's your right. The beauty of America is choice, and you've chosen.
But don't be surprised or bewildered when information is posted and discussed that you don't have access to read and see. That's the flip side and consequence of "choosing not to".
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He's a special one, Phil, has a bone to pick with our brands. That's ok, that's his right.
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You'd think the figurehead for a company would have some tact and decorum.
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Marketing gonna market.
With so many resources, I wish video of every shot was taken. I would watch the raw footage out of pure curiosity.
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Marketing gonna market.
With so many resources, I wish video of every shot was taken. I would watch the raw footage out of pure curiosity.
wish we could but 20 games on 4 different balls took us several weeks because of reoiling etc. the video is about a 3 month project.
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Thank you. But using between 1200 and 1500 is a big gap. Apparently I'm easily impressed. But I am open minded. Once again thank you for your input and insightful comments. I think we have worn this topic out.
Good luck to you. And have a Happy Thanksgiving
it varies based upon the pads being used. For being in the business as long as you have, I'm surprised that you don't know more about cover stocks
I guess you don't consider this snide and disrespectful?
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How many top guys for ANY company spend any time here? Phil is attacked and cannot respond?
No matter what they say it's called "marketing" or "unprofessional" or whatever... And then people will complain that key people from the companies never spend any time here...
I've used a few Radical balls, and currently use the Primo regularly. Good stuff to compliment my already good stuff...
Happy Thanksgiving to all!!
In this world of serious terroristic threats and serious problems globally, at least all we have to argue about is which ball to use tonight. Many of us will celebrate some of life's luxuries without a worry tomorrow in our comforts among loved ones. We are truly blessed.
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Great vid no matter how much someone has to complain that it must be dishonest somehow.
The end results that most bowlers do not know, and many pso do not know, or often understand is how quickly bowling ball surfaces change over a period of a few games and the affect it can have on the bowling ball.
Look how often bowlers post on here, other forums, and now fb about the ball not lasting very long and losing hook and blaming it on everyone or everything but in most cases its the bowlers fault. Most of todays higher performance bowling balls with some surface require more maintenance to keep box reaction then any other product series they may throw.
Typically the bowler throws it till it doesn't hook the whole lane like it use to then start complaining. Plenty of pso miss this opportunity for profit on bowling ball maintenance and go to well how about ball A, X, or Z instead?
Not every ball is the biggest hooking ball on the market. Not every bowler needs the biggest hooking ball on the market.......but most do want that or so they think.
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http://www.bowlersjournal.com/?p=8001 (http://www.bowlersjournal.com/?p=8001)
This article from 2 years ago states that the Yeti had a true surface grit of around 5135.
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Whose to say I didn't learn something from this experiment? I never really thought about the ending grit, just the process to get a ball to factory. In some cases, a consumer would have no idea how to get back to OOB. For instance, a guy buys a Menace, throws it 10 games and wants to bring it back to factory so he hits it with a 3000 pad. It won't be the same since there's obviously some steps missing.
Having all the high tech tools available has sparked my curiousty and imagination. I plan to follow up with a surface scan and coverstock maintenance videos geared towards consumers.
I'm hooked.
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We have shown the surface steps for as long as I have been with Brunswick.
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Quote from kidlost2000
"Typically the bowler throws it till it doesn't hook the whole lane like it use to then start complaining. Plenty of pso miss this opportunity for profit on bowling ball maintenance and go to well how about ball A, X, or Z instead?"
AGREED!! I spend PLENTY of time bringing back reaction on balls from all companies, and enjoy the response of satisfied bowlers who thought their ball was dead. Routine maintenance is the key to these high tech balls performing at optimum levels.
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http://www.ballreviews.com/coverstock-preparation/awesome-video-showing-how-much-a-ball-changes-in-three-games-t289256.0.html (http://www.ballreviews.com/coverstock-preparation/awesome-video-showing-how-much-a-ball-changes-in-three-games-t289256.0.html)
This was posted here, in 2012... same test.
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We were having a great peaceful day and then I decided to let the ball reviews forum know about our video. Apparently this was a mistake. Maybe we should think twice about sharing our info on this site. Maybe this is why the industry leaders don't come on here. I will discuss with the staff and decide if it's worth the consents badgering we get when we come here to share. Just my opinion.
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All is now great I just found the block button.
To all have a great Thanksgiving. Wow that's Radical.
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The only thing missing from that previous surface post is your criticism of the original poster. LOL
In all seriousness, It's great to do things again and again, getting the info out to the public in many different avenues.
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Phil,
I very much appreciate the time and effort that you, MO, and the rest of your staff put into your video's..
. Very insightful and educating to many who wouldn't understand the variables in these areas
Don't change what makes a difference in the ball industry, if may add, as one previous poster mentioned in a earlier post I wish there were several shots thrown with all the balls not just one, and also more of the latest aggressive equipment from other companies' is all... Keep it up DO NOT STOP THE GOOD WORK!!!
Remember it is after all a forum, we have the right every now and then to give a opinion, BUT THAT DOESN'T Stop the difference you and your team makes.
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To add to my last post Phil, although I don't own a radical, I have thrown the Version 2 Solid, Pearl, Yeti Untamed, and the last, I LOVED THEM ALL, now that's RADICAL!!!!
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All because you couldn't answer which ball lost the most overall reaction from ball 1 to game 20?
Could we have thrown the balls on Throbot right out of the box and collected data?
Sure. Did we? No. That wasn't the intent of the test, the focus was what happened to the balls after 20 games.
If you'd like to see balls tested with fresher covers, try the previous Perception videos.
If we posted the shots right OOB, we would be criticized that because our surface was much duller is the reason it hooked much more. On the other hand, when we put 20 games on the balls and let the surfaces normalize, we are criticized again. We will never make everyone satisfied and really don't intend to. We will continue to create controlled tests in controlled environments for the bowling world to debate.
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Will there be any more videos addressing the cg using a throwbot……. Like placing it 45 degrees from the bowlers pap to increase carry and or something or another as mentioned else where
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Doubt we will be doing anymore CG testing.
It has been tested and tested and shown to be barely as significant as humidity in relation to ball reaction.
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Phil/Nick
Good stuff and as a former PSO, when factual information can get disseminated into the industry rather than incorrect information, this is good for the business. Nothing more difficult that trying to correct bad information given to customers who then think the customer knows something when in actuality, he/she is mistaken. Try to correct that information when the bowler is telling his/her friends. Now bad info is getting passed around.
Don't worry about TKK. He/she is just a shill for other companies and acts like a little POS PSO when someone doesn't agree with him/her, so he/she resorts to verbal jabs to try to throw his/her weight around and bully someone. Must be a great person in real life. ::)
Posters like TKK is why other reps no longer visit Ballreviews.
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Phil/Nick
Good stuff and as a former PSO, when factual information can get disseminated into the industry rather than incorrect information, this is good for the business. Nothing more difficult that trying to correct bad information given to customers who then think the customer knows something when in actuality, he/she is mistaken. Try to correct that information when the bowler is telling his/her friends. Now bad info is getting passed around.
Don't worry about TKK. He/she is just a shill for other companies and acts like a little POS PSO when someone doesn't agree with him/her, so he/she resorts to verbal jabs to try to throw his/her weight around and bully someone. Must be a great person in real life. ::)
Posters like TKK is why other reps no longer visit Ballreviews.
Thanks wowzers. We keep trying. It just get old when people feel they can just post whatever they feel and don't give you any respect for what you are trying to do. The block button will be my friend.
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All because you couldn't answer which ball lost the most overall reaction from ball 1 to game 20?
Could we have thrown the balls on Throbot right out of the box and collected data?
Sure. Did we? No. That wasn't the intent of the test, the focus was what happened to the balls after 20 games.
If you'd like to see balls tested with fresher covers, try the previous Perception videos.
If we posted the shots right OOB, we would be criticized that because our surface was much duller is the reason it hooked much more. On the other hand, when we put 20 games on the balls and let the surfaces normalize, we are criticized again. We will never make everyone satisfied and really don't intend to. We will continue to create controlled tests in controlled environments for the bowling world to debate.
is it not a valid question? LeGue bowlers want to know the difference in ball reaction from game 1 to game 20. I was just trying to get some answers backed by data that your company provided.
We figured you had all the answers though! Next test then...
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Only with the other balls in the video.
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I can't seem to find it, but did someone actually say something about the CG being out of line on the Paradox? Like static weight is going to mean something in the grand scheme of things? Didn't we go over this years ago?
Sounds like grasping at straws. Phil and Co, thanks for the video. I love science.
Oh yeah, still Global proud. :)
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Great post Doom! Especially for someone (you) who does not throw Radical, but yet can find some good from the efforts Phil, Mo, and the rest of the team put work and effort into.
Happy Thanksgiving
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To me it seems like all the perception videos have the radical ball being thrown on an ever so slightly tighter line. In some of the videos it was called hooking earlier. However, when I look at the projection of the ball based on my vantage point it appears the ball is being thrown roughly 2 boards tighter of a line at the breakpoint. Being 2 boards tighter to the pocket at the breakpoint is gonna be a fairly big difference in where the ball ends up in the pocket and how it deflects on a completely flat pattern. That being said I understand what the purpose of these videos is and it seems to work for the most part.
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I might not enjoy the fact that the balls I throw aren't on top in these videos..but I do love to watch these now.
I prefer the regular hook test on your previous 2 videos.....I think that's good stuff! Great job guys, I won't hate!
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And don't be discouraged, this video has the most comments I've seen on a thread here in quite some time...
You're going to have lovers & haters when it comes o different brands in this sport, ATLEAST were not cussing at eachother, I enjoy a good conversation going back and forth.
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And I'm ever so closer to throwing radical or someone else.
Cuz I feel like that's my menace. Doink city....10s all day...hate that this
So even from your rival customer, Thanks!
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http://www.ballreviews.com/coverstock-preparation/awesome-video-showing-how-much-a-ball-changes-in-three-games-t289256.0.html (http://www.ballreviews.com/coverstock-preparation/awesome-video-showing-how-much-a-ball-changes-in-three-games-t289256.0.html)
This was posted here, in 2012... same test.
Great video I have re-posted several times here and elsewhere because so many people do not know this, and still don't.
The value of the Radical vid for me along with the other isn't the ball that strikes the most, hooks the most, or does whatever it is what you can see in a side by side comparison and use to make a judgement from there on something.
This video it is the affects of surface change. We can assume all bowling balls hook more prior to the total number of games bowled in the end. If I owned a shop I would love to have those other videos playing so customers can see the differences in those bowling balls at the time to try and better fit a ball in the lineup of what they are looking for.
Customers, especially higher average bowlers typically aren't looking for the next hook monster but something to fit between on what they currently have. No different then a golfer wanting a different wedge or four.
I still want a Pivot because of the previous video. If you pay attention it starts hooking sooner and will hook more then the Guru. You could easily move further left with the ball seen in the video and let it eat up the oil.......if you know what you are looking at.(same for the Sinister) As a consumer if you thought the Pivot and Deadly Aim were similar you have a video that shows that not to be the case at least at box finish.
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi250.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg252%2Fsoundcontrol%2Fpivot.jpg&hash=8e4a9feb4f2c6d7176684cbb1c6b9b563d4fa27e) (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/soundcontrol/media/pivot.jpg.html)
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very interesting video new guy
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I thought he didnt know how quickly surface changes after being used and that what ever the final grit applied was, how far removed the actual surface could be from it.
I use 1000 grit regularly as a finishing grit and people look at me like "great that guy" because apparently 1000 grit is throwing chalk today. I assure you many of them do not know, and I know a local former PBA regional guy here who is on staff with Track doesn't know, that the Paradox box finish actually scans just above 1000 grit.
He is the first guy to start mother f%*king someone for throwing surface. Little does he know he an many others are throwing more surface then they realize.
Why is that information important to me.....
A guy I drilled a Paradox for just a month or so ago LOVES the ball. Last week says it doesn't hook. Doesn't wrinkle etc etc. He tried adjusting the surface some, and baking it and still nothing. Thanks to this I have a better idea of how to help him out now because of the video and surface scanning.
I do not know what Phil may or may not know about every little thing in bowling. Honestly do not care. He has given some insight here and there that many apparently are too hung up on other stuff to realize what they are over looking.
That is reference to surface and technology and how people get hung up on the terms solid, pearl, hybrid etc. He basically told people it was marketing and any ball no matter the looks of the coverstock can be designed to react in any way they choose. A solid coverstock that goes long and hooks etc. like a "pearlized cover". Nobody catches that and instead argues other stuff in the post when referring to the original Guru comparison vid. Another industry person on here has said the same thing, pay attention to surface not pearl, solid, hybrid marketing.
Yet you still have the same questions and post and misunderstandings... can i sand a pearlized ball, I wish they would make a hybrid version of this..., our lanes are too dry for solids, etc. It is the marketing industry in full force.
The video footage doesn't lie, only the spin marketing may play.
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They may not know if in the process of 20 games they weren't documenting the shots. If the end results is the goal not how you get there when trying to put 10 games on a ball then another 10 games who knows.
I would guesstimate the balls with the least surface change will have the least change in reaction. So if after 20 games your starting finish is 2500 and your ending finish is 3500 versus say 1400 and 3500 or 700 and 3500 wouldn't we assume that was the biggest factor in hook lost?
The video does show after 20 games which ball hooks the most with similar surfaces doesn't it?
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And the marketing led me to my question that will remain unanswered. Which ball lost the most overall hook from ball 1 to game 20. Seems like a pretty reasonable question, right?
It's a reasonable question if that was one of the stated objectives of the test. They've told you clearly it wasn't. Back in reply #46, Nick was clear:
Could we have thrown the balls on Throbot right out of the box and collected data?Sure. Did we? No. That wasn't the intent of the test, the focus was what happened to the balls after 20 games.
There is point where it's reasonable to let it go. It's been reached and passed.
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Personally, I like what Phil has presented in his videos, as well as his willingness to be accessible to people like myself on this forum. Have his videos affected my buying decisions? Nope. Are his videos informative? Yes.
Have some of Phil's responses to my personal messages affected my buying decisions? Yes, once, and I won't name the Radical bowling ball that I eventually purchased. (I have since identified it as a condition-specific piece at least for my game.)
Overall, are Phil's responses to my personal messages helpful? Yes. They do give me a better understanding.
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Steven
Good answer and good to point out that TKK has taken this too far. But, however, when TKK has an ax to grind or is shilling for one of his companies, he continues to drive home everything instead of reading the responses others give.
Go back to your Storm and Motiv forums TKK so you can continue your shilling.
You guys do realize that guys like him make it tough on guys like me to dedicate time to this forum because he just sucks the energy out of you and waste time not many of us can afford to waste. I do try and spend time here. Today I'm thankful for the block button. Lol. Happy Thanksgiving.
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Newguy
We sure do realize that and those of us that have been around for a while have seen people like Ron Hickland and others get driven away because of posts pretty much like the ones TKK is making now. People like JustRico, Mo, Brian Purcel, and others who use to post here no longer post and quite frankly some of us are tired of losing members that can help.
Keep posting and use that ignore function. Works wonders.
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Thank you. You guys need to band together and get that problem resolved so we can make this a great place again. The private Facebook groups will be the way and ball reviews will be a thing of the past. Start an anti Troll campaign Thanks
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So many flavors on Thanksgiving, don't be salty, Elliot.
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Hey Shill...er I mean TKK
I don't have any Radical pieces in my bags at the moment. I just appreciate the effort and the fact that someone who WANTS to help the industry continues to post here rather than have idiots like you that have an agenda to shill drive people like Phil away. So no, I won't spare you.
So once again, go back to your threads and continue to smell and shill for your Utah and Michigan glue sticks.
Constructive criticism was asking why only posting the video to Facebook. I do agree that if you do not have Facebook...sorta difficult to see the vid. I would like to see it posted to Radical's site as well, but the bottom line is the vid was made with good intentions. The only intentions you ever had was to push buttons and shill.
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The video is up on the Radical YouTube page and will be added to the website Monday.
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The video is up on the Radical YouTube page and will be added to the website Monday.
Thanks Nick, much appreciated!
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Thanks to those who posted either the video or the link to it. I find this type of video to be very informative and useful, so thanks to Radical for taking the time and effort to make it.
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Yes, thank you Nick. Now I won't miss out on anything just because I and others elect to not be a participant on Facebook.
Thanks again.
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Yes, thank you Nick. Now I won't miss out on anything just because I and others elect to not be a participant on Facebook.
Thanks again.
Actually, you're missing out on a lot. On Facebook (FB), there is a lot of good discussion and analysis surrounding the video you'll never have access to. Phil and someone else from Radical provide input you don't see here.
If you ever do decide to join FB, you'll find bowling resources that extend well beyond BR. Check them out if your situation changes.
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And our response to Richard:
We set aside clear parameters with absolutely no intent to mislead the consumer. The reason we showed this video after 20 games is very simple:
1. The surface of each ball equalizes after minimal lane play. Each ball finds a very similar median grit with each other making them "equal" mechanically speaking.
2. In past videos, people have claimed that the only reason our ball outperforms the other balls in the video is because it is duller out of box.
3. Some balls lose their performance at a faster rate than others. Chemical Friction is more aggressive and has better longevity.
Bottom line, Bowlers Journal has rated the Guru line as the most aggressive hooking balls on the market, and Throbot has backed up that claim again and again.
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Nick
Doesn't matter what you say and Phil says. No matter how many times you or anyone else explains what the parameters of the test is/was/were, when you have someone like TKK shilling for another brand(s), the user will continue to latch onto anyone in an effort to move his/her own thoughts forward. Anyone that can read English and doesn't have an alternative agenda understands what the test was meant to accomplish. TKK does not or refuses to understand that.
Now, if TKK put as much effort into educating the bowling public that he/she does in an effort to put down the Radical brand, bowling as a whole would be better off.
I will repeat, I do not have a single Radical or Brunswick poured ball in any of my bags. I am just tired of TKK and others like TKK driving off the last few remaining members like Phil and Nick that still post here after other members drove off much of the best knowledge that was here in the form of ball company reps because of an ax to grind or whatever the real reason is. (shill)
Bottom line TKK, stop shilling and redirect your efforts into better educating your customers. You will see better results in the long run.
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And our response to Richard:
We set aside clear parameters with absolutely no intent to mislead the consumer. The reason we showed this video after 20 games is very simple:
1. The surface of each ball equalizes after minimal lane play. Each ball finds a very similar median grit with each other making them "equal" mechanically speaking.
2. In past videos, people have claimed that the only reason our ball outperforms the other balls in the video is because it is duller out of box.
3. Some balls lose their performance at a faster rate than others. Chemical Friction is more aggressive and has better longevity.
Bottom line, Bowlers Journal has rated the Guru line as the most aggressive hooking balls on the market, and Throbot has backed up that claim again and again.
Agree with this 100%. I find the video very instructive, since, as is shown, surface tends to equalize fairly quickly. For those of us who use balls for more than 5 games (Unlike 90% of people who sell used balls apparently), it's extremely valuable to see how well the strong ball holds up after regular use.
The only nit I would pick is the reference to Bowlers Journal. I wouldn't know how the Bowling This Month review is since Brunswick, DV8, Radical doesn't provide balls for their review anymore. As a consumer of bowling balls and a subscriber to that publication, that disappoints me and I have not seen a good explanation.
That said, I think the Supreme is the best oiler on the market and this video reinforces that. I just won't be buying one.
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We send BTM high performance balls. The last batch of balls didn't get there for whatever reason, so we sent them a Nirvana, Thug Life and Guru Supreme.
Just curious since you bring it up, how many balls have your purchased this year because of reading a review in BTM?
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Nick
Doesn't matter what you say and Phil says. No matter how many times you or anyone else explains what the parameters of the test is/was/were, when you have someone like TKK shilling for another brand(s), the user will continue to latch onto anyone in an effort to move his/her own thoughts forward. Anyone that can read English and doesn't have an alternative agenda understands what the test was meant to accomplish. TKK does not or refuses to understand that.
Well said. There were TKK like posters over on FB, but for the most part, they backed off after the parameters of the test were explained to them. Questions are fine, but when they're continuously asked after being answered repeatedly, there is an agenda in play. Unfortunately this is the Internet, and there is little available to stop it.
The original 'Perception vs Reality' video featuring the Guru convinced me to give Radical a try. Any company owner who's willing to come on here, and who publishes videos that openly compare their products to others, deservers a look. At least in my book.
My own experience with the Guru reenforces the results I saw in the original video, not to mention the conclusions by BJI. I placed third in a Badger pattern (52') sport short tournament where most others were struggling with their equipment not recovering. I just bought the Supreme, and look forward to what the ball will do on longer oil.
Phil, keep posting here, and keep the videos coming. They're opening a lot of eyes to Radical.
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As a San Antonio faithful for well over a decade, I'll say that between the 3 companies under Big B, I'd look at Radical first. I respect what Phil and Mo are trying to do, and would give a Guru series line ball a fair shake vs a Dream series ball. After some tweaking, I'm in love with the line, and would provide an honest and fair comparison between the two.
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We send BTM high performance balls. The last batch of balls didn't get there for whatever reason, so we sent them a Nirvana, Thug Life and Guru Supreme.
Just curious since you bring it up, how many balls have your purchased this year because of reading a review in BTM?
At least 6 between my son and me. Several others purchased this year based on previous experience. This still doesn't answer the question why LP and MP balls are no longer provided for testing.
As for the aforementioned HP balls, I'll believe it when I see the reviews. I was told on Facebook comment a months and a half ago that Nirvana was an oversight and that it would be corrected. Still haven't seen it. I suppose it's possible that the py now have them and are not reviewing. All I know is other major companies still provide full range of balls for review.
I bought Graffiti Tag and black and gold Spike based on reviews. There's LP where I would probably have considered rack attack or rave (depending on review) in lieu of spike. Bought BW legend based on review. Bought an IQ Tour based on review. My son asked for and I bought a Guru Master based on review (and otherwise he's strictly Motiv). His 15 pound Motiv Arsenal was purchased in some part previous 14# experience and some parts review to find comps of balls that are no longer available.
I did not count the balls I bought based on review and have not drilled (Arson High Flare, guru mighty, burgundy ringer, LT48, others)
In fairness, do I make my purchasing decisions strictly based on BTM reviews? No I don't. But I do count on it as a tool and component in my process. Which is why virtually all newer Brunswick, DV8 and Radical equipment will no longer be considered by me. I'm not encouraging others to do the same. It's just my decision on how I will handle my purchasing decisions.
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Thanks for the honest feedback.
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I also buy a lot of balls a year. I use BTM as a nice guideline. Not 100% of my decisions are made by those reviews but they do provide me power in making a decision between balls I'm choosing from. If I'm undecided between 2 or 3 then the review makes that decision easier for me. Ive been thinking about a vandal but can't seem to find any reviews outside of staffers so I haven't purchased it. In the meantime I've purchased 3 others since I started looking at the Vandal.
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Nick,
You are a class act. You read Snaksters post and replied with a "Thank You for honest feedback" instead of coming at him again & again trying to convince him to see your point of view.
There are to many posters who can't except we all have different opinions, points of view, etc. They have to keep coming at you with the hope that they will "win" with their position.
Again, you are a classy guy and have my respect.
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Thanks, Bowlaholic..
Ultimately, I don't make the call on BTM, all I can do is pass along the feedback I see. I understand why the displeasure for the readers/consumers, but I also understand the decision we made only sending high performance.
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Thanks, Bowlaholic..
Ultimately, I don't make the call on BTM, all I can do is pass along the feedback I see. I understand why the displeasure for the readers/consumers, but I also understand the decision we made only sending high performance.
Maybe if the decision was explained to the readers/consumers, we'd understand too. Brunswick is not punishing BTM, they are punishing their consumers (and potential consumers). Based on some replies to another thread, clearly purchasing decisions are going in different directions. Granted, it's a small sample size. And not to belabor a point, but the most recent HP balls do not appear to have been provided since no reviews available for any of them. Unless BTM has received and not reviewed? I have no insight into what has happened between the two parties, but we, the consumer, are the losers. As such, I make purchasing choices accordingly.
I bear no animosity to any party. I will swear to anyone that I think the Guru Supreme is the best oiler out there. I think the Nirvana maybe the best overall HP ball I've seen personally, but I will not buy either. Lots of good companies making lots of good balls. I choose to support those that support the consumer over their full range. As difficult as that may be (since I've been a fan).
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I explained a little more on the other thread.
Let's keep this one on topic about the video please.
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I explained a little more on the other thread.
Let's keep this one on topic about the video please.
Apologies. You're absolutely right. I think these videos have been great. Tremendously effective. My son actually departed from his beloved Motiv to buy a Master based on the videos of this line.
....and the BTM review. 😉
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http://radicalbowling.com/news/perception-versus-reality-dec-2015
It is now up on the Radical page.
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I know I haven't been on here as much as I have in the past, due to some back issues I haven't been bowling as much or as well as the last couple of years, but I really appreciate what Phil, Mo, and the entire Radical Team do in producing these videos. These videos give you a chance to see the different balls going down the lane, whether you agree or not, with the information in them appreciate the work that does go into them and use the information how you see fit. If you don't agree with it, that's fine that is your right, but you don't have to attack the people who put the work into creating them.
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Looks like a ton of work went into making this vid, big ups for the Radical guys in even attempting something like this. Tons of blood, sweat, time, and money go into experiments like this and if someone wants to hate on you after all your hard work you can just tell then to go jump in the lake or do their own damn test! ;)
Being someone who just picked the game back up I had no idea how fast my balls would lose their OOB grit, that's very eye opening for someone like me. Makes me want to start looking at Spinners and getting a lesson in ball resurfacing lol.
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We always invite people to build a Throbot and take the time to execute these kind of tests to find their own results. ;)
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Nick - During preparation of one of these videos, if Brunswick found a ball from a different manufacturer that was stronger than the Brunswick balls, would it be included in the video? -- JohnP
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"Being someone who just picked the game back up I had no idea how fast my balls would lose their OOB grit, that's very eye opening for someone like me. Makes me want to start looking at Spinners and getting a lesson in ball resurfacing lol."
It's simple to do a surface refresh without a spinner, just take the desired abrasive in your hand, place the ball on the abrasive and rotate it with your other hand. Be sure to cover the entire surface. Now a complete surface refinish is a different matter. -- JohnP
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Of course. In past videos we have shown balls that hooked a lot and struck. Even so, the CATS data showed that the Guru went longer and flipped harder.
The purpose of this particular test was to show what happens as the covers start to get some wear and tear on them, because let's face it, a lot of bowlers don't address surface maintenance until they really notice a big difference in ball reaction. I'd love to do another test after 50 games, but it takes a lot of time for the tester to get the games on the balls.
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Nick - During preparation of one of these videos, if Brunswick found a ball from a different manufacturer that was stronger than the Brunswick balls, would it be included in the video? -- JohnP
I think the videos are wonderful. I truly do, but I wanna see a hyper cell grudge match vs. The og guru.
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Nick - Thanks for the response. -- JohnP
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