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Author Topic: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical  (Read 3725 times)

earlyrolling

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Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« on: August 17, 2018, 05:06:46 PM »
Interesting video:

Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical:

https://youtu.be/QrRzwLHmDLM

 

TamerBowling

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2018, 01:54:45 PM »
Doing reviews and working with digital tracking for almost 10 years, this is pretty easy to manipulate to make it look like whatever you want.

For example, did they move the arm at all from ball to ball?  If you know a ball reacts a certain way, wouldn't the bowler adjust to find the right angle?  I mean if the RipD hit like that from that line, why would you use that line??  Do you actually carry better with the Katana generating that angle or would the Black Widow Gold work better more consistently?  We don't throw one shot, we bowl several games with several bowlers.  Does the Katana reaction hold up or do you have to move more and change balls over the course of the night.

I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with the finding but like any experiment, someone designed the controls and it's clear their balls are set up to work so it's biased to their controls.

And I'm also not commenting on which ball is "better" in any case.  I just think people need to keep that in mind when looking at these.
I can tell you we tested both the Katana and Black Widow Gold.  They are very different shapes and both are really good balls.  I've had certain house conditions where I felt that extra angle the Katana generated was too much but when you move to adjust for better pocket angle, carry changes.  Gold blends better down lane.  So how does this test tell you anything about that?

Anyway, food for thought...

This is why I pay a lot more attention to what you do Tamer than any of the manufacturers marketing crap.  Thank you by the way.  Radical makes some great balls but honestly so does everyone else including Hammer (have significant # of balls from both).  Not popular to say this but Radical's big edge is you can get their stuff for under $100 (often well under) at Buddies if you are patient.

Thanks!
And just to be clear, I'm not saying the equipment is bad.  In fact, if you recall from our Katana review, we thought the ball was very good.  But, that video tells you nothing about how good the Black Widow Gold is and it's clearly skewing the test in their favor.  We tested both on the same condition so we know exactly what the differences are.  5.73245% blah blah whatever doesn't mean jack if the ball with less carries amazingly...

I'll say this, if Radical worked with us, we'd test more equipment of theirs and give you reality, as they call it.  But Big B isn't supporting it so...  But if we come across equipment we can test, we will do it.  I actually like whatever I've seen out of them in the small sample I've been exposed to.
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HankScorpio

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2018, 08:25:56 AM »

Is it extreme? Itís called perception vs reality, as if theyíre trying to say ďyou perceive itís bad/too rolly/whatever but itís notĒ. People that donít know Radical as a brand canít have a perception by default. The implication seems clear to me. If their intent isnít to show that they are better than people think, the videos are very poorly titled.

Iíve had plenty of Radical balls and had a few winners in that lot but mostly was unimpressed. The Jackpot was very good, in particular.

 
Your interpretation of "perception vs. reality" is interesting. I take it to mean that general perception is that if it's a Storm or EBI oil ball, then, by definition, it's the most hooking ball on the market. Their well financed marketing machines bombard bowlers with that message constantly. Radical, through the power of visualization, is trying to show that reality might  actually be different. They're getting lots of attention on message boards, so mission at least partially accomplished.
 
I personally take the videos as entertainment. There are too many ways to manipulate the videos to take them as absolute gospel, but they are fun to watch.
 
I also own a lot of Radical balls, and I mostly agree with your overall take. The Jackpots (pearl and solid) are two of my favorite balls. I also really like a few of the Guru's. However, they've also had their share of what I consider duds. They're really no different that the other companies in having a lot of both winners and losers.

The public perceptions we see are surprisingly different. Must be regional.

Around here people either:
A. Donít know who Radical is at all. This is most lower level or once a week bowlers.
B. Know Radical is a Brunswick brand and therefore wonít try them (people really seem to hate brunswick around here) because they hook too early. This is usually higher level bowlers.

There really isnít a perception here that Storm balls hook more - in fact, for the few people who know Radical exists, itís the opposite. To me, thatís not a surprise, ďBIGGEST HOOK EVAHHHĒ is often Radicalís marketing strategy and hook ratings from reviews back it up. But the perception around here is that the balls will just puke and not carry (since itís Brunswick and everyone hate Brunswick). While that might not be true everywhere, Radicalís addition of entry angle to this perception vs reality video canít be coincidence.

Before anyone Brunswick chimes in - yes, I know the bias isnít fair. That doesnít make it less real. Iíve personally had several Brunswick/Radical balls Iíve liked over the last few years.

SMACdi

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2018, 09:51:45 AM »
I'm not sure anyone would make a purchase decision based on a single video in a controlled environment.  If that was the intent they probably missed the mark.  The Katana line is really good if the ball is in the hand of the right bowler, with the right layout on the right condition.  Pretty much just like any other brand and product line within that brand.  Radical is putting out some really great stuff right now just like everyone else is.  Perception vs. reality is more about brand recognition than equipment. 

Impending Doom

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2018, 10:23:11 AM »
More hook isn't important. Splitting the 8-9 is.
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DP3

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2018, 10:57:11 AM »
I'm not sure anyone would make a purchase decision based on a single video in a controlled environment.

People still buy balls based on color (solid black resin anyone?). They for damn sure will buy a ball that looks impressive in a video, even if the person doesn't throw it like them.

The urethane resurgence, in large part, is due to high rev & two handers making them look amazing on conditions that give you some hook and/or hold in the track. I'm sure we all know a 14mph 200rpm knuckleball thrower that has and uses a urethane because they think they're going to get it to hit like Jesper when there's "too much over under". Hell, some of them post on this site daily.

Impending Doom

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2018, 11:01:01 AM »
Only reason I have urethane in the bag is because I often get into over under hell and when I play close to the friction and see the ball starting to hook at 30 feet, I don't have to have a heart attack.

Which is now going to hook way more because I have to plug my extra hole! #sideweightmatters
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BowlingForDonuts

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #37 on: August 27, 2018, 11:12:04 AM »
I'm not sure anyone would make a purchase decision based on a single video in a controlled environment.

People still buy balls based on color (solid black resin anyone?). They for damn sure will buy a ball that looks impressive in a video, even if the person doesn't throw it like them.

The urethane resurgence, in large part, is due to high rev & two handers making them look amazing on conditions that give you some hook and/or hold in the track. I'm sure we all know a 14mph 200rpm knuckleball thrower that has and uses a urethane because they think they're going to get it to hit like Jesper when there's "too much over under". Hell, some of them post on this site daily.

Urethane is great for practicing with and for using in houses that damage reactives but yeah for many bowlers its a glorified spare ball.  Videos sell balls or they wouldn't make them.  Learned pretty quick though to listen to non staffers on here (haven't regretted a single one of those purchases yet) instead of just watching videos.  Another thing I have noticed is a $110 ball that is meh sure stings less than a top shelf $170 meh so the bleeding edge is not where its at for me.  Perfectly content to let other people beta test while the price drops.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 11:32:25 AM by BowlingForDonuts »
Less is more especially with forum posts.

bowler001

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #38 on: August 27, 2018, 12:16:14 PM »
The majority of bowlers do not frequent ballreviews. Its just the same group of people talking around in circles that have their own opinions and biases about equipment. Everybody makes decent stuff and everyone makes crappy stuff. And there are WAY too many variables to determine if the ball alone is solely the reason it rolls good or not. Bowlers, lane conditions, ball drillers, topography all effect the reaction of a bowling ball. So how does anyone actually know if a ball is good or not? They don't. I find it hilarious that people can sit here and trash a video with a robot throwing the ball yet still claim they get value from a comparison with a human throwing it. Let a different person throw it and you might see complete opposite results. Change the lane pattern and see different results. Change this, change that, different results. There are people who will watch that video and run to the pro shop or jump online and buy a radical product. There are also people who will do just the same and buy one of the hammer products in the video.

CoorZero

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #39 on: August 27, 2018, 01:20:53 PM »
The majority of bowlers do not frequent ballreviews. Its just the same group of people talking around in circles that have their own opinions and biases about equipment. Everybody makes decent stuff and everyone makes crappy stuff. And there are WAY too many variables to determine if the ball alone is solely the reason it rolls good or not. Bowlers, lane conditions, ball drillers, topography all effect the reaction of a bowling ball. So how does anyone actually know if a ball is good or not? They don't. I find it hilarious that people can sit here and trash a video with a robot throwing the ball yet still claim they get value from a comparison with a human throwing it. Let a different person throw it and you might see complete opposite results. Change the lane pattern and see different results. Change this, change that, different results. There are people who will watch that video and run to the pro shop or jump online and buy a radical product. There are also people who will do just the same and buy one of the hammer products in the video.

So... discussion is useless?

newguy

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2018, 10:45:19 AM »
The majority of bowlers do not frequent ballreviews. Its just the same group of people talking around in circles that have their own opinions and biases about equipment. Everybody makes decent stuff and everyone makes crappy stuff. And there are WAY too many variables to determine if the ball alone is solely the reason it rolls good or not. Bowlers, lane conditions, ball drillers, topography all effect the reaction of a bowling ball. So how does anyone actually know if a ball is good or not? They don't. I find it hilarious that people can sit here and trash a video with a robot throwing the ball yet still claim they get value from a comparison with a human throwing it. Let a different person throw it and you might see complete opposite results. Change the lane pattern and see different results. Change this, change that, different results. There are people who will watch that video and run to the pro shop or jump online and buy a radical product. There are also people who will do just the same and buy one of the hammer products in the video.

So... discussion is useless?

I am sure its just a coincidence why some balls turn out being great for a great many different bowlers and stay around for years and some balls disappear after six months (on sale after 2) and later show up in a crappiest ball thread on here.  I will agree everyone makes both but discussion is useful.  All the hype in the world can't make me like my More Cash because its a total dog even on heavy oil.  Maybe it matches up with some people but have yet to see any non staffer like it on here.  Funny how that works.  For record I think the Katana is more the type of ball in category one that stays around.  Its why it has two other balls named after it already (one of which even newer is on sale already unlike the original).

I know you've mentioned it a few times that the Slash was on sale at Buddies, I checked with them and they have one Slash at a reduced price due to the specs. The balance of the Slash they have in stock are at full price. Just to clear that up.
I also noticed you have a strong dislike for the More Cash, is it possible that you drilled it too strong not realizing how much oil volume it actually needs regarding of what surface you may or may not have used. I personally have trouble using strong asym balls so I don't drill them other than the initial test. Thank you

BowlingForDonuts

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2018, 11:21:55 AM »
Quote from: newguy link=topic=316745.msg2607507#msg2607507

I know you've mentioned it a few times that the Slash was on sale at Buddies, I checked with them and they have one Slash at a reduced price due to the specs. The balance of the Slash they have in stock are at full price. Just to clear that up.
I also noticed you have a strong dislike for the More Cash, is it possible that you drilled it too strong not realizing how much oil volume it actually needs regarding of what surface you may or may not have used. I personally have trouble using strong asym balls so I don't drill them other than the initial test. Thank you

Yeah half expecting Buddies might have a deal on Slash for black Friday but have no advanced knowledge.  Agree largely on More Cash but there is a reason why that ball went on sale like 3 months after release, didn't stay in the lineup long and why Radical is not reusing the Cash core for their current heavy oil monster.  What annoyed me most about the More Cash besides paying full price is it was kind of marketed as being more versatile than the Cash and useful on house shot (curse you also BTM reviews) but it really isn't.  Still going to delete original post as its not helpful.  Radical has some great balls.  That Intel especially.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 11:34:13 AM by BowlingForDonuts »
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