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Equipment Boards => Radical => Topic started by: earlyrolling on August 17, 2018, 05:06:46 PM

Title: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: earlyrolling on August 17, 2018, 05:06:46 PM
Interesting video:

Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical:

https://youtu.be/QrRzwLHmDLM
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: SVstar34 on August 17, 2018, 05:38:21 PM
Now that's interesting. Might have to get some popcorn and a beer to watch this later at home
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: leftybowler70 on August 17, 2018, 07:38:34 PM
The whole Katana series is STRONG:  And I thought the rip’d were strong....  :-\
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: AlonzoHarris on August 17, 2018, 11:04:03 PM
Doubt we see them throw a comparison with Utah though lol. I actually just watched this before hoping on here. Interesting video.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: CoorZero on August 18, 2018, 07:57:45 AM
Doubt we see them throw a comparison with Utah though lol. I actually just watched this before hoping on here. Interesting video.

They have in the past perception vs reality videos, although those were made with one ball from a few companies and not going up against a single brand. This is their first in a couple years and it sets an interesting precedence.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: six pack on August 18, 2018, 08:27:22 AM
so if I want equipment that are smoother I should not look at Radical? not sure how any video should persuade any one. it's like fishing lures.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: BowlingForDonuts on August 18, 2018, 11:02:56 AM
so if I want equipment that are smoother I should not look at Radical? not sure how any video should persuade any one. it's like fishing lures.

Haven't thrown the Katanas but sure like my Cyclops a lot more than my More Cash (trash) or my Fix even drilled weak (still needs a flood).  Cyclops is super versatile even if not a Mo crazy asym special.  Pretty sure Throwbot threw more consecutive strikes with the Cyclops than any of the Katanas (only Intel beat it AFAIK, Radical's symmetrics get overlooked imo).  But sexy sideways balls are where the margins are at (true of all the ball companies to be fair) thus the video.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: charlest on August 20, 2018, 07:24:23 AM
so if I want equipment that are smoother I should not look at Radical? not sure how any video should persuade any one. it's like fishing lures.

For the 99% case, the biggest hookers are rarely the best choices. Unless you have PBA Touring pro consistency in revs and ball speed, the more boards you cover the easier it is to get into trouble.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: six pack on August 20, 2018, 04:41:18 PM
^^^
Agreed
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: Brandon Riley on August 20, 2018, 05:19:20 PM
Simple math:  Hook + Backend = Sales
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: leftybowler70 on August 20, 2018, 08:12:18 PM
Good stuff guys: Less is CLEARLY MORE- simple math.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: TamerBowling on August 23, 2018, 09:59:38 AM
Doing reviews and working with digital tracking for almost 10 years, this is pretty easy to manipulate to make it look like whatever you want.

For example, did they move the arm at all from ball to ball?  If you know a ball reacts a certain way, wouldn't the bowler adjust to find the right angle?  I mean if the RipD hit like that from that line, why would you use that line??  Do you actually carry better with the Katana generating that angle or would the Black Widow Gold work better more consistently?  We don't throw one shot, we bowl several games with several bowlers.  Does the Katana reaction hold up or do you have to move more and change balls over the course of the night.

I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with the finding but like any experiment, someone designed the controls and it's clear their balls are set up to work so it's biased to their controls.

And I'm also not commenting on which ball is "better" in any case.  I just think people need to keep that in mind when looking at these.
I can tell you we tested both the Katana and Black Widow Gold.  They are very different shapes and both are really good balls.  I've had certain house conditions where I felt that extra angle the Katana generated was too much but when you move to adjust for better pocket angle, carry changes.  Gold blends better down lane.  So how does this test tell you anything about that?

Anyway, food for thought...
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: Impending Doom on August 23, 2018, 10:06:28 AM
I'm sorry, but from lots of years in the industry, if I ever needed a ball that created a ton of angle, I wasn't ever looking at Hopkinsville. It's been a while since I've thrown anything out of that factory (stopped about when the Track Freak line came out), but nothing I ever threw from them went nuts on the backend.

Now, when you think angle and skid flip, who do you think of?
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: Good Times Good Times on August 23, 2018, 10:31:04 AM
Now, when you think angle and skid flip, who do you think of?

My new shiny HyRoad Pearl!
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: JazlarVonSteich on August 23, 2018, 10:32:10 AM
Now, when you think angle and skid flip, who do you think of?

Yeah, Hammer was an odd choice. They should have went up against Storm/RG. I have both those Rip'd balls (or did - sold one, selling the other) and the Rip'd Solid is definitely not meant to swing the lane. It's strong front to back. The hybrid is more angular, but still not to the degree of those Radical balls. I tested them both against the RG Halo and saw similar results to the Radical test.

Our current house shot is not allowing me to take advantage of more front to back ball motion, unfortunately. I've tried. It's probably not changing much from what I'm told. It may get better once fall leagues start and the oil can build up, but I'm not expecting significant change. I'm basically finding more need for angular equipment once again. So some more Storm/RG and Radical balls are going back in my bags.

Should have tested against balls like the Sure Lock, Halo, Hypercell Fused, or the Code line.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: vwDiesel on August 23, 2018, 10:52:17 AM
I have a technical question that may very well be a "no maddah" one:

Why would Radical set up videos using 7 degrees tilt? (And most of their previous ThrowBot videos were setup with 4 or 4.5 degrees tilt.) Both of these seem low to me vs. average bowlers. Or are these tilt numbers indeed more in line with the modern release?

Just curious.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: BowlingForDonuts on August 23, 2018, 11:19:19 AM
Doing reviews and working with digital tracking for almost 10 years, this is pretty easy to manipulate to make it look like whatever you want.

For example, did they move the arm at all from ball to ball?  If you know a ball reacts a certain way, wouldn't the bowler adjust to find the right angle?  I mean if the RipD hit like that from that line, why would you use that line??  Do you actually carry better with the Katana generating that angle or would the Black Widow Gold work better more consistently?  We don't throw one shot, we bowl several games with several bowlers.  Does the Katana reaction hold up or do you have to move more and change balls over the course of the night.

I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with the finding but like any experiment, someone designed the controls and it's clear their balls are set up to work so it's biased to their controls.

And I'm also not commenting on which ball is "better" in any case.  I just think people need to keep that in mind when looking at these.
I can tell you we tested both the Katana and Black Widow Gold.  They are very different shapes and both are really good balls.  I've had certain house conditions where I felt that extra angle the Katana generated was too much but when you move to adjust for better pocket angle, carry changes.  Gold blends better down lane.  So how does this test tell you anything about that?

Anyway, food for thought...

This is why I pay a lot more attention to what you do Tamer than any of the manufacturers marketing crap.  Thank you by the way.  Radical makes some great balls but honestly so does everyone else including Hammer (have significant # of balls from both).  Not popular to say this but Radical's big edge is you can get their stuff for under $100 (often well under) at Buddies if you are patient.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: CoorZero on August 23, 2018, 11:57:04 AM
Doing reviews and working with digital tracking for almost 10 years, this is pretty easy to manipulate to make it look like whatever you want.

For example, did they move the arm at all from ball to ball? 

This. I like the videos, but I'm not really putting a ton of stock into them because we don't know all of the variables. It's not like it's a real-time video or something that shows the full process of their shoot.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: ignitebowling on August 23, 2018, 12:35:28 PM
I'd almost bet the videos are pretty accurate in results.  So what. It changes nothing on most who are brand loyal for no reason on what they buy.  It appeals to those who aren't and use videos online to make decisions.  More hook is more better.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: HankScorpio on August 24, 2018, 07:39:04 AM
I'd almost bet the videos are pretty accurate in results.  So what. It changes nothing on most who are brand loyal for no reason on what they buy.  It appeals to those who aren't and use videos online to make decisions.  More hook is more better.

Yea I’d agree. Having met Mo, I’d expect the results to be accurate. Mo is very scientific and very egotistical. He’d leave no doubt that his ball was stronger.

I’m perfectly fine with them making this video. It’s clearly biased in this case, but if Tamer made an multi brand comparison video we’d all be rightfully losing our shit over how awesome the video is. Having seen lots of Ripd’s in person but hardly seeing Radical balls ever, I thought it was interesting to see how they roll side by side.

And let’s face it, they have to do SOMETHING. The video is called perception vs reality. Even Radical knows that the public perception of them is that they are shitty.



Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: BowlingForDonuts on August 24, 2018, 08:58:59 AM
I'd almost bet the videos are pretty accurate in results.  So what. It changes nothing on most who are brand loyal for no reason on what they buy.  It appeals to those who aren't and use videos online to make decisions.  More hook is more better.

Yea I’d agree. Having met Mo, I’d expect the results to be accurate. Mo is very scientific and very egotistical. He’d leave no doubt that his ball was stronger.

I’m perfectly fine with them making this video. It’s clearly biased in this case, but if Tamer made an multi brand comparison video we’d all be rightfully losing our shit over how awesome the video is. Having seen lots of Ripd’s in person but hardly seeing Radical balls ever, I thought it was interesting to see how they roll side by side.

And let’s face it, they have to do SOMETHING. The video is called perception vs reality. Even Radical knows that the public perception of them is that they are shitty.

They have some decent balls but they tend not to be the Mo crazy asym specials imo.  Have to be honest and say wouldn’t probably own their stuff without the clearance pricing though. Love one ball, like another, and the mo crazy asym ball well it was the dumb buy.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: Steven on August 24, 2018, 09:12:24 AM

And let’s face it, they have to do SOMETHING. The video is called perception vs reality. Even Radical knows that the public perception of them is that they are shitty.

 
I think this is a bit extreme. When I throw my Radical stuff, the usual reaction I get from those around me is "What is that??". The reality is that there is hardly any public perception of Radical because they're a small unknown company fighting an uphill battle for market share. In a world where the vast majority of pro shops are locked up by Storm and EBI, that's not going to change anytime soon.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: bowling4burgers on August 24, 2018, 10:29:58 AM
Radical is clearly the best brand for robot bowlers, though.   ::)
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: J_w73 on August 24, 2018, 02:11:34 PM
Radical is clearly the best brand for robot bowlers, though.   ::)

Hit and miss. Old Grease Monkey Whack I drilled up was the best ball out of my bag last year.  Radical Cash a complete disappointment on every condition.  Didn't do anything special on oil that every other ball I have could do.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: leftybowler70 on August 24, 2018, 02:30:59 PM
Radical is clearly the best brand for robot bowlers, though.   ::)

You damn near had to laugh out of my pants with this statement, I love it, couldn’t agree more. 😆😆😆
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: J_w73 on August 24, 2018, 02:31:56 PM
My opinion of the video.  Katana was a little cleaner than the Black widow gold which allowed it to go farther right.  Could have been drier out there which caused the ball to hook sharper and harder.

Slash could have more continuation but it looks like it hit  slightly higher which caused it to finish farther left.

Rip'd didn't look too good. Looked like it slowed down and burned up quick. Dragon looked cleaner with more energy to hook.

But I would agree with Tamer, it is pretty easy to make a ball look any way you want.

Put the balls on a 60 ft flood and then show how one can hook more than the other.  That is what I want to see.  Every ball will hook on a house shot with defined friction.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: HankScorpio on August 24, 2018, 10:20:23 PM

And let’s face it, they have to do SOMETHING. The video is called perception vs reality. Even Radical knows that the public perception of them is that they are shitty.

 
I think this is a bit extreme. When I throw my Radical stuff, the usual reaction I get from those around me is "What is that??". The reality is that there is hardly any public perception of Radical because they're a small unknown company fighting an uphill battle for market share. In a world where the vast majority of pro shops are locked up by Storm and EBI, that's not going to change anytime soon.

Is it extreme? It’s called perception vs reality, as if they’re trying to say “you perceive it’s bad/too rolly/whatever but it’s not”. People that don’t know Radical as a brand can’t have a perception by default. The implication seems clear to me. If their intent isn’t to show that they are better than people think, the videos are very poorly titled.

I’ve had plenty of Radical balls and had a few winners in that lot but mostly was unimpressed. The Jackpot was very good, in particular.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: Steven on August 24, 2018, 11:22:42 PM

Is it extreme? It’s called perception vs reality, as if they’re trying to say “you perceive it’s bad/too rolly/whatever but it’s not”. People that don’t know Radical as a brand can’t have a perception by default. The implication seems clear to me. If their intent isn’t to show that they are better than people think, the videos are very poorly titled.

I’ve had plenty of Radical balls and had a few winners in that lot but mostly was unimpressed. The Jackpot was very good, in particular.

 
Your interpretation of "perception vs. reality" is interesting. I take it to mean that general perception is that if it's a Storm or EBI oil ball, then, by definition, it's the most hooking ball on the market. Their well financed marketing machines bombard bowlers with that message constantly. Radical, through the power of visualization, is trying to show that reality might  actually be different. They're getting lots of attention on message boards, so mission at least partially accomplished.
 
I personally take the videos as entertainment. There are too many ways to manipulate the videos to take them as absolute gospel, but they are fun to watch.
 
I also own a lot of Radical balls, and I mostly agree with your overall take. The Jackpots (pearl and solid) are two of my favorite balls. I also really like a few of the Guru's. However, they've also had their share of what I consider duds. They're really no different that the other companies in having a lot of both winners and losers.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: BowlingForDonuts on August 25, 2018, 11:07:03 AM
Jackpots another symmetric ball and not top shelf ball.  Extreme asyms might be what Mo is famous for but those generally aren't Radicals best balls.  Give me an Intel over a Katana as asyms are too condition specific for me to pay top shelf prices finally learned my lesson.  Of course when the top shelf is $75 at Buddies who knows.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: TamerBowling on August 25, 2018, 01:48:11 PM
I'd almost bet the videos are pretty accurate in results.  So what. It changes nothing on most who are brand loyal for no reason on what they buy.  It appeals to those who aren't and use videos online to make decisions.  More hook is more better.

Yea I’d agree. Having met Mo, I’d expect the results to be accurate. Mo is very scientific and very egotistical. He’d leave no doubt that his ball was stronger.

I’m perfectly fine with them making this video. It’s clearly biased in this case, but if Tamer made an multi brand comparison video we’d all be rightfully losing our shit over how awesome the video is. Having seen lots of Ripd’s in person but hardly seeing Radical balls ever, I thought it was interesting to see how they roll side by side.

And let’s face it, they have to do SOMETHING. The video is called perception vs reality. Even Radical knows that the public perception of them is that they are shitty.





I don't disagree that it's accurate in the sense that what you saw is what you saw.  But you said it yourself, he is scientific and egotistical.  He knows how to set up the "experiment" to suit his equipment.  Everything any brand puts out is marketing, plain and simple.  They have all to lose by putting "truth" that works out against them.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: TamerBowling on August 25, 2018, 01:54:45 PM
Doing reviews and working with digital tracking for almost 10 years, this is pretty easy to manipulate to make it look like whatever you want.

For example, did they move the arm at all from ball to ball?  If you know a ball reacts a certain way, wouldn't the bowler adjust to find the right angle?  I mean if the RipD hit like that from that line, why would you use that line??  Do you actually carry better with the Katana generating that angle or would the Black Widow Gold work better more consistently?  We don't throw one shot, we bowl several games with several bowlers.  Does the Katana reaction hold up or do you have to move more and change balls over the course of the night.

I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with the finding but like any experiment, someone designed the controls and it's clear their balls are set up to work so it's biased to their controls.

And I'm also not commenting on which ball is "better" in any case.  I just think people need to keep that in mind when looking at these.
I can tell you we tested both the Katana and Black Widow Gold.  They are very different shapes and both are really good balls.  I've had certain house conditions where I felt that extra angle the Katana generated was too much but when you move to adjust for better pocket angle, carry changes.  Gold blends better down lane.  So how does this test tell you anything about that?

Anyway, food for thought...

This is why I pay a lot more attention to what you do Tamer than any of the manufacturers marketing crap.  Thank you by the way.  Radical makes some great balls but honestly so does everyone else including Hammer (have significant # of balls from both).  Not popular to say this but Radical's big edge is you can get their stuff for under $100 (often well under) at Buddies if you are patient.

Thanks!
And just to be clear, I'm not saying the equipment is bad.  In fact, if you recall from our Katana review, we thought the ball was very good.  But, that video tells you nothing about how good the Black Widow Gold is and it's clearly skewing the test in their favor.  We tested both on the same condition so we know exactly what the differences are.  5.73245% blah blah whatever doesn't mean jack if the ball with less carries amazingly...

I'll say this, if Radical worked with us, we'd test more equipment of theirs and give you reality, as they call it.  But Big B isn't supporting it so...  But if we come across equipment we can test, we will do it.  I actually like whatever I've seen out of them in the small sample I've been exposed to.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: HankScorpio on August 27, 2018, 08:25:56 AM

Is it extreme? It’s called perception vs reality, as if they’re trying to say “you perceive it’s bad/too rolly/whatever but it’s not”. People that don’t know Radical as a brand can’t have a perception by default. The implication seems clear to me. If their intent isn’t to show that they are better than people think, the videos are very poorly titled.

I’ve had plenty of Radical balls and had a few winners in that lot but mostly was unimpressed. The Jackpot was very good, in particular.

 
Your interpretation of "perception vs. reality" is interesting. I take it to mean that general perception is that if it's a Storm or EBI oil ball, then, by definition, it's the most hooking ball on the market. Their well financed marketing machines bombard bowlers with that message constantly. Radical, through the power of visualization, is trying to show that reality might  actually be different. They're getting lots of attention on message boards, so mission at least partially accomplished.
 
I personally take the videos as entertainment. There are too many ways to manipulate the videos to take them as absolute gospel, but they are fun to watch.
 
I also own a lot of Radical balls, and I mostly agree with your overall take. The Jackpots (pearl and solid) are two of my favorite balls. I also really like a few of the Guru's. However, they've also had their share of what I consider duds. They're really no different that the other companies in having a lot of both winners and losers.

The public perceptions we see are surprisingly different. Must be regional.

Around here people either:
A. Don’t know who Radical is at all. This is most lower level or once a week bowlers.
B. Know Radical is a Brunswick brand and therefore won’t try them (people really seem to hate brunswick around here) because they hook too early. This is usually higher level bowlers.

There really isn’t a perception here that Storm balls hook more - in fact, for the few people who know Radical exists, it’s the opposite. To me, that’s not a surprise, “BIGGEST HOOK EVAHHH” is often Radical’s marketing strategy and hook ratings from reviews back it up. But the perception around here is that the balls will just puke and not carry (since it’s Brunswick and everyone hate Brunswick). While that might not be true everywhere, Radical’s addition of entry angle to this perception vs reality video can’t be coincidence.

Before anyone Brunswick chimes in - yes, I know the bias isn’t fair. That doesn’t make it less real. I’ve personally had several Brunswick/Radical balls I’ve liked over the last few years.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: SMACdi on August 27, 2018, 09:51:45 AM
I'm not sure anyone would make a purchase decision based on a single video in a controlled environment.  If that was the intent they probably missed the mark.  The Katana line is really good if the ball is in the hand of the right bowler, with the right layout on the right condition.  Pretty much just like any other brand and product line within that brand.  Radical is putting out some really great stuff right now just like everyone else is.  Perception vs. reality is more about brand recognition than equipment. 
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: Impending Doom on August 27, 2018, 10:23:11 AM
More hook isn't important. Splitting the 8-9 is.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: DP3 on August 27, 2018, 10:57:11 AM
I'm not sure anyone would make a purchase decision based on a single video in a controlled environment.

People still buy balls based on color (solid black resin anyone?). They for damn sure will buy a ball that looks impressive in a video, even if the person doesn't throw it like them.

The urethane resurgence, in large part, is due to high rev & two handers making them look amazing on conditions that give you some hook and/or hold in the track. I'm sure we all know a 14mph 200rpm knuckleball thrower that has and uses a urethane because they think they're going to get it to hit like Jesper when there's "too much over under". Hell, some of them post on this site daily.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: Impending Doom on August 27, 2018, 11:01:01 AM
Only reason I have urethane in the bag is because I often get into over under hell and when I play close to the friction and see the ball starting to hook at 30 feet, I don't have to have a heart attack.

Which is now going to hook way more because I have to plug my extra hole! #sideweightmatters
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: BowlingForDonuts on August 27, 2018, 11:12:04 AM
I'm not sure anyone would make a purchase decision based on a single video in a controlled environment.

People still buy balls based on color (solid black resin anyone?). They for damn sure will buy a ball that looks impressive in a video, even if the person doesn't throw it like them.

The urethane resurgence, in large part, is due to high rev & two handers making them look amazing on conditions that give you some hook and/or hold in the track. I'm sure we all know a 14mph 200rpm knuckleball thrower that has and uses a urethane because they think they're going to get it to hit like Jesper when there's "too much over under". Hell, some of them post on this site daily.

Urethane is great for practicing with and for using in houses that damage reactives but yeah for many bowlers its a glorified spare ball.  Videos sell balls or they wouldn't make them.  Learned pretty quick though to listen to non staffers on here (haven't regretted a single one of those purchases yet) instead of just watching videos.  Another thing I have noticed is a $110 ball that is meh sure stings less than a top shelf $170 meh so the bleeding edge is not where its at for me.  Perfectly content to let other people beta test while the price drops.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: bowler001 on August 27, 2018, 12:16:14 PM
The majority of bowlers do not frequent ballreviews. Its just the same group of people talking around in circles that have their own opinions and biases about equipment. Everybody makes decent stuff and everyone makes crappy stuff. And there are WAY too many variables to determine if the ball alone is solely the reason it rolls good or not. Bowlers, lane conditions, ball drillers, topography all effect the reaction of a bowling ball. So how does anyone actually know if a ball is good or not? They don't. I find it hilarious that people can sit here and trash a video with a robot throwing the ball yet still claim they get value from a comparison with a human throwing it. Let a different person throw it and you might see complete opposite results. Change the lane pattern and see different results. Change this, change that, different results. There are people who will watch that video and run to the pro shop or jump online and buy a radical product. There are also people who will do just the same and buy one of the hammer products in the video.
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: CoorZero on August 27, 2018, 01:20:53 PM
The majority of bowlers do not frequent ballreviews. Its just the same group of people talking around in circles that have their own opinions and biases about equipment. Everybody makes decent stuff and everyone makes crappy stuff. And there are WAY too many variables to determine if the ball alone is solely the reason it rolls good or not. Bowlers, lane conditions, ball drillers, topography all effect the reaction of a bowling ball. So how does anyone actually know if a ball is good or not? They don't. I find it hilarious that people can sit here and trash a video with a robot throwing the ball yet still claim they get value from a comparison with a human throwing it. Let a different person throw it and you might see complete opposite results. Change the lane pattern and see different results. Change this, change that, different results. There are people who will watch that video and run to the pro shop or jump online and buy a radical product. There are also people who will do just the same and buy one of the hammer products in the video.

So... discussion is useless?
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: newguy on November 12, 2018, 10:45:19 AM
The majority of bowlers do not frequent ballreviews. Its just the same group of people talking around in circles that have their own opinions and biases about equipment. Everybody makes decent stuff and everyone makes crappy stuff. And there are WAY too many variables to determine if the ball alone is solely the reason it rolls good or not. Bowlers, lane conditions, ball drillers, topography all effect the reaction of a bowling ball. So how does anyone actually know if a ball is good or not? They don't. I find it hilarious that people can sit here and trash a video with a robot throwing the ball yet still claim they get value from a comparison with a human throwing it. Let a different person throw it and you might see complete opposite results. Change the lane pattern and see different results. Change this, change that, different results. There are people who will watch that video and run to the pro shop or jump online and buy a radical product. There are also people who will do just the same and buy one of the hammer products in the video.

So... discussion is useless?

I am sure its just a coincidence why some balls turn out being great for a great many different bowlers and stay around for years and some balls disappear after six months (on sale after 2) and later show up in a crappiest ball thread on here.  I will agree everyone makes both but discussion is useful.  All the hype in the world can't make me like my More Cash because its a total dog even on heavy oil.  Maybe it matches up with some people but have yet to see any non staffer like it on here.  Funny how that works.  For record I think the Katana is more the type of ball in category one that stays around.  Its why it has two other balls named after it already (one of which even newer is on sale already unlike the original).

I know you've mentioned it a few times that the Slash was on sale at Buddies, I checked with them and they have one Slash at a reduced price due to the specs. The balance of the Slash they have in stock are at full price. Just to clear that up.
I also noticed you have a strong dislike for the More Cash, is it possible that you drilled it too strong not realizing how much oil volume it actually needs regarding of what surface you may or may not have used. I personally have trouble using strong asym balls so I don't drill them other than the initial test. Thank you
Title: Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
Post by: BowlingForDonuts on November 12, 2018, 11:21:55 AM
Quote from: newguy link=topic=316745.msg2607507#msg2607507

I know you've mentioned it a few times that the Slash was on sale at Buddies, I checked with them and they have one Slash at a reduced price due to the specs. The balance of the Slash they have in stock are at full price. Just to clear that up.
I also noticed you have a strong dislike for the More Cash, is it possible that you drilled it too strong not realizing how much oil volume it actually needs regarding of what surface you may or may not have used. I personally have trouble using strong asym balls so I don't drill them other than the initial test. Thank you

Yeah half expecting Buddies might have a deal on Slash for black Friday but have no advanced knowledge.  Agree largely on More Cash but there is a reason why that ball went on sale like 3 months after release, didn't stay in the lineup long and why Radical is not reusing the Cash core for their current heavy oil monster.  What annoyed me most about the More Cash besides paying full price is it was kind of marketed as being more versatile than the Cash and useful on house shot (curse you also BTM reviews) but it really isn't.  Still going to delete original post as its not helpful.  Radical has some great balls.  That Intel especially.