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Author Topic: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical  (Read 8708 times)

earlyrolling

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Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« on: August 17, 2018, 05:06:46 PM »
Interesting video:

Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical:

https://youtu.be/QrRzwLHmDLM

 

vwDiesel

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2018, 10:52:17 AM »
I have a technical question that may very well be a "no maddah" one:

Why would Radical set up videos using 7 degrees tilt? (And most of their previous ThrowBot videos were setup with 4 or 4.5 degrees tilt.) Both of these seem low to me vs. average bowlers. Or are these tilt numbers indeed more in line with the modern release?

Just curious.
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BowlingForDonuts

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2018, 11:19:19 AM »
Doing reviews and working with digital tracking for almost 10 years, this is pretty easy to manipulate to make it look like whatever you want.

For example, did they move the arm at all from ball to ball?  If you know a ball reacts a certain way, wouldn't the bowler adjust to find the right angle?  I mean if the RipD hit like that from that line, why would you use that line??  Do you actually carry better with the Katana generating that angle or would the Black Widow Gold work better more consistently?  We don't throw one shot, we bowl several games with several bowlers.  Does the Katana reaction hold up or do you have to move more and change balls over the course of the night.

I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with the finding but like any experiment, someone designed the controls and it's clear their balls are set up to work so it's biased to their controls.

And I'm also not commenting on which ball is "better" in any case.  I just think people need to keep that in mind when looking at these.
I can tell you we tested both the Katana and Black Widow Gold.  They are very different shapes and both are really good balls.  I've had certain house conditions where I felt that extra angle the Katana generated was too much but when you move to adjust for better pocket angle, carry changes.  Gold blends better down lane.  So how does this test tell you anything about that?

Anyway, food for thought...

This is why I pay a lot more attention to what you do Tamer than any of the manufacturers marketing crap.  Thank you by the way.  Radical makes some great balls but honestly so does everyone else including Hammer (have significant # of balls from both).  Not popular to say this but Radical's big edge is you can get their stuff for under $100 (often well under) at Buddies if you are patient.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 11:21:49 AM by BowlingForDonuts »
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CoorZero

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2018, 11:57:04 AM »
Doing reviews and working with digital tracking for almost 10 years, this is pretty easy to manipulate to make it look like whatever you want.

For example, did they move the arm at all from ball to ball? 

This. I like the videos, but I'm not really putting a ton of stock into them because we don't know all of the variables. It's not like it's a real-time video or something that shows the full process of their shoot.

ignitebowling

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2018, 12:35:28 PM »
I'd almost bet the videos are pretty accurate in results.  So what. It changes nothing on most who are brand loyal for no reason on what they buy.  It appeals to those who aren't and use videos online to make decisions.  More hook is more better.
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HankScorpio

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2018, 07:39:04 AM »
I'd almost bet the videos are pretty accurate in results.  So what. It changes nothing on most who are brand loyal for no reason on what they buy.  It appeals to those who aren't and use videos online to make decisions.  More hook is more better.

Yea I’d agree. Having met Mo, I’d expect the results to be accurate. Mo is very scientific and very egotistical. He’d leave no doubt that his ball was stronger.

I’m perfectly fine with them making this video. It’s clearly biased in this case, but if Tamer made an multi brand comparison video we’d all be rightfully losing our shit over how awesome the video is. Having seen lots of Ripd’s in person but hardly seeing Radical balls ever, I thought it was interesting to see how they roll side by side.

And let’s face it, they have to do SOMETHING. The video is called perception vs reality. Even Radical knows that the public perception of them is that they are shitty.




BowlingForDonuts

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2018, 08:58:59 AM »
I'd almost bet the videos are pretty accurate in results.  So what. It changes nothing on most who are brand loyal for no reason on what they buy.  It appeals to those who aren't and use videos online to make decisions.  More hook is more better.

Yea I’d agree. Having met Mo, I’d expect the results to be accurate. Mo is very scientific and very egotistical. He’d leave no doubt that his ball was stronger.

I’m perfectly fine with them making this video. It’s clearly biased in this case, but if Tamer made an multi brand comparison video we’d all be rightfully losing our shit over how awesome the video is. Having seen lots of Ripd’s in person but hardly seeing Radical balls ever, I thought it was interesting to see how they roll side by side.

And let’s face it, they have to do SOMETHING. The video is called perception vs reality. Even Radical knows that the public perception of them is that they are shitty.

They have some decent balls but they tend not to be the Mo crazy asym specials imo.  Have to be honest and say wouldn’t probably own their stuff without the clearance pricing though. Love one ball, like another, and the mo crazy asym ball well it was the dumb buy.
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Steven

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2018, 09:12:24 AM »

And let’s face it, they have to do SOMETHING. The video is called perception vs reality. Even Radical knows that the public perception of them is that they are shitty.

 
I think this is a bit extreme. When I throw my Radical stuff, the usual reaction I get from those around me is "What is that??". The reality is that there is hardly any public perception of Radical because they're a small unknown company fighting an uphill battle for market share. In a world where the vast majority of pro shops are locked up by Storm and EBI, that's not going to change anytime soon.

bowling4burgers

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2018, 10:29:58 AM »
Radical is clearly the best brand for robot bowlers, though.   ::)
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J_w73

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2018, 02:11:34 PM »
Radical is clearly the best brand for robot bowlers, though.   ::)

Hit and miss. Old Grease Monkey Whack I drilled up was the best ball out of my bag last year.  Radical Cash a complete disappointment on every condition.  Didn't do anything special on oil that every other ball I have could do.
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leftybowler70

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2018, 02:30:59 PM »
Radical is clearly the best brand for robot bowlers, though.   ::)

You damn near had to laugh out of my pants with this statement, I love it, couldn’t agree more. 😆😆😆

J_w73

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2018, 02:31:56 PM »
My opinion of the video.  Katana was a little cleaner than the Black widow gold which allowed it to go farther right.  Could have been drier out there which caused the ball to hook sharper and harder.

Slash could have more continuation but it looks like it hit  slightly higher which caused it to finish farther left.

Rip'd didn't look too good. Looked like it slowed down and burned up quick. Dragon looked cleaner with more energy to hook.

But I would agree with Tamer, it is pretty easy to make a ball look any way you want.

Put the balls on a 60 ft flood and then show how one can hook more than the other.  That is what I want to see.  Every ball will hook on a house shot with defined friction.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2018, 02:33:43 PM by J_w73 »
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HankScorpio

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2018, 10:20:23 PM »

And let’s face it, they have to do SOMETHING. The video is called perception vs reality. Even Radical knows that the public perception of them is that they are shitty.

 
I think this is a bit extreme. When I throw my Radical stuff, the usual reaction I get from those around me is "What is that??". The reality is that there is hardly any public perception of Radical because they're a small unknown company fighting an uphill battle for market share. In a world where the vast majority of pro shops are locked up by Storm and EBI, that's not going to change anytime soon.

Is it extreme? It’s called perception vs reality, as if they’re trying to say “you perceive it’s bad/too rolly/whatever but it’s not”. People that don’t know Radical as a brand can’t have a perception by default. The implication seems clear to me. If their intent isn’t to show that they are better than people think, the videos are very poorly titled.

I’ve had plenty of Radical balls and had a few winners in that lot but mostly was unimpressed. The Jackpot was very good, in particular.

Steven

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2018, 11:22:42 PM »

Is it extreme? It’s called perception vs reality, as if they’re trying to say “you perceive it’s bad/too rolly/whatever but it’s not”. People that don’t know Radical as a brand can’t have a perception by default. The implication seems clear to me. If their intent isn’t to show that they are better than people think, the videos are very poorly titled.

I’ve had plenty of Radical balls and had a few winners in that lot but mostly was unimpressed. The Jackpot was very good, in particular.

 
Your interpretation of "perception vs. reality" is interesting. I take it to mean that general perception is that if it's a Storm or EBI oil ball, then, by definition, it's the most hooking ball on the market. Their well financed marketing machines bombard bowlers with that message constantly. Radical, through the power of visualization, is trying to show that reality might  actually be different. They're getting lots of attention on message boards, so mission at least partially accomplished.
 
I personally take the videos as entertainment. There are too many ways to manipulate the videos to take them as absolute gospel, but they are fun to watch.
 
I also own a lot of Radical balls, and I mostly agree with your overall take. The Jackpots (pearl and solid) are two of my favorite balls. I also really like a few of the Guru's. However, they've also had their share of what I consider duds. They're really no different that the other companies in having a lot of both winners and losers.

BowlingForDonuts

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2018, 11:07:03 AM »
Jackpots another symmetric ball and not top shelf ball.  Extreme asyms might be what Mo is famous for but those generally aren't Radicals best balls.  Give me an Intel over a Katana as asyms are too condition specific for me to pay top shelf prices finally learned my lesson.  Of course when the top shelf is $75 at Buddies who knows.
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TamerBowling

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Re: Perception vs Reality - Hammer vs Radical
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2018, 01:48:11 PM »
I'd almost bet the videos are pretty accurate in results.  So what. It changes nothing on most who are brand loyal for no reason on what they buy.  It appeals to those who aren't and use videos online to make decisions.  More hook is more better.

Yea I’d agree. Having met Mo, I’d expect the results to be accurate. Mo is very scientific and very egotistical. He’d leave no doubt that his ball was stronger.

I’m perfectly fine with them making this video. It’s clearly biased in this case, but if Tamer made an multi brand comparison video we’d all be rightfully losing our shit over how awesome the video is. Having seen lots of Ripd’s in person but hardly seeing Radical balls ever, I thought it was interesting to see how they roll side by side.

And let’s face it, they have to do SOMETHING. The video is called perception vs reality. Even Radical knows that the public perception of them is that they are shitty.





I don't disagree that it's accurate in the sense that what you saw is what you saw.  But you said it yourself, he is scientific and egotistical.  He knows how to set up the "experiment" to suit his equipment.  Everything any brand puts out is marketing, plain and simple.  They have all to lose by putting "truth" that works out against them.
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