Equipment Boards => Radical => Topic started by: newguy on March 19, 2012, 12:26:54 PM
Title: What makes a ball great
Post by: newguy on March 19, 2012, 12:26:54 PM
I pose this question, " What makes a ball great?"
Thinking back over the years many balls have come and gone but what made a great one. Specifically in recent years when balls are out of the line from most companies in 3 to 6 months. Why don't they stick around like they did years ago. Is technology changing so quickly that the ball launched in September has become obsolete? I have been looking throuh my files and been considering some of the great ones I had developed in the past and was wondering how would they do with todays covers on them on todays conditions.
What do you guys think?
Edited by newguy on 4/9/2012 at 11:46 AM
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: qstick777 on March 19, 2012, 01:02:17 PM
I think you're asking two different questions:
1) what makes a ball great?
2) why do manufacturers put out so many different balls so frequently?
"Specifically in recent years when balls are out of the line from most companies in 3 to 6 months. Why don't they sick around like they did years ago. Is technology changing so quickly that the ball launched in September has become obsolete?"
I don't think that releasing a ball and discontinuing in 3-6 months is a matter of becoming obsolete, I think it's the necessary evil of what the "larger" bowling companies have become.
When you have a manufacturer that can pore a core every 12 seconds, all day long it's just a matter of business that they are going to put out as many balls as they can. If they don't they are wasting money. Why spend that much money on factory space and equipment if you are going to let it sit idle?
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: dizzyfugu on March 19, 2012, 01:11:22 PM
Only new balls sell. That's a spiral that will surely implode sooner or later, because every new ball generation is hyped to be more of anything. More hook, more control, more length, hadahada... It's blurring, and confusing. There's IMHO no customer orientation behind it, rather blind, product-focussed marketing which has to retrieve the advertising and production budgets with ever higher ROI and therefore quicker "ball lifetimes". This cannot go on for a long period. Company shake-out has begun, but I feel that the industry is just killing its customer base...
As a side note: this new ball hype also suggests that every "old" ball generation becomes totally outdated and obsolete with the next new thing on the agenda. It's so ridiculous. A ball from 15 years ago just works as good as then - and it will probably even last longer than today's thin-shelled, porous "expendable" orbs. A shame.
DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany 2010/11 Benrather BC Club Champion Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: Hoselrockets on March 19, 2012, 02:05:26 PM
It must look good and make ME look good!
THB
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: Cobalt Bomb on March 19, 2012, 02:33:39 PM
I will attempt to answer the first part of newguy's question, what makes a ball great?
Probably the best definition I can think of is that the cover and core match up for a large number of bowlers on its intended condition. It's not usually just the cover or just the core (with the exception of technology leaps like urethane to resin). Using Storm, take the Virtual Gravity, with R2X solid and the Shape-Lock HD core. For a solid cover ball it retained energy very well and hit hard for almost any style bowler. Best selling Storm ball of all time. That core overwhelmed the R2X pearl in the Gravity Shift, which (in my opinion) was a much more condition specific ball. The same core is now used in the VG Nano, which is still a good ball, but the Nano cover seems to be overwhelming the core. A similar, but opposite situation seems to be true with the Invasion/Anarchy core, where the pearl seems to be a much better match for that core, while with the solid R3X, it just seemed to roll too early and lose energy for a lot of bowlers.
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: newguy on March 20, 2012, 01:40:27 PM
The Question is " What makes a ball great?" the answers so far have been answering the question of "What makes a great ball?" We all know a great balls is one that the cover and core match and works on most contitions etc, but what is the defination of a What makes a ball great?
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: WOWZERS on March 20, 2012, 03:19:28 PM
A ball that was great was the Danger Zone. That ball changed the way Brunswick and other saw ball reaction, much like the Turbo X did when it was introduced. Did it work for everyone? Nope. However, we can look back and say that ball X was a turning point in technology and ball reaction. The original Danger Zone was one of those balls.
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: djones on March 20, 2012, 04:07:50 PM
Maybe what needs to be done is identify some of the balls that most would consider great, sticking to the reactive era; and then making a decision on what factors these balls brought to the table. Not all of them were great for everyone; but generally saying, they did stand out in their time. And don't think I won't miss some.
I think the majority of these listed appealed to the masses because they brought the user a desirable reaction not otherwise seen to that point (Turbo-X, Danger Zone, Firestorm, Cuda-C, Cell, VG). Others brought a managable/consistant reaction (V2, Heat, HyRoad). Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: LuckyLefty on March 20, 2012, 05:35:00 PM
A great ball is one that is used by many bowlers with many different styles for many years and even after it's most useful period has passed is still in demand.
Popularity because of effectiveness followed by popularity past it's prime. That makes a great ball.
Examples
Rubber lt 48, Columbia Yellowdot, Danger Zone, Violet 3D offset, Ebonite One, Virtual Gravity.
Balls that were great balls, but were not balls that were great.
Demolition Zone, Crimson Red Sledgehammer, Hammer No Mercy Beatn, Columbia Full Swing.
The Demolition Zone I believe was the greatest of the balls that are great but not a great ball!
As my proshop operator said, "I can drill that ball just about any way for any style bowler and they will come back and brag about it in their league." Was not a Danger Zone or Sapphire zone type of seller!
Regards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: strikezone_sanantonio on March 28, 2012, 05:02:23 PM
Simple..."It's how marketable it is!"
Bo Littlefield AMF / 900 Global Staff Strike Zone, Inc. of San Antonio -only pro shop in Texas with the largest selection and inventory (210) 545-0303 email - strikezone3884@sbcglobal.net
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: LuckyLefty on March 28, 2012, 08:13:10 PM
Bo,
Well said!
Regards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: Bowl_Freak on April 08, 2012, 09:29:17 PM
I believe these days it's all about "Shelf Appeal" as most balls do the same things, hook the most.
ITS NEVER THE BALL OR THE LANES FAULT, ITS OPERATOR ERROR.
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: LuckyLefty on April 09, 2012, 01:16:50 PM
I would love to hear "newguys" opinions!
Regards,
Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: newguy on April 09, 2012, 01:45:53 PM
In my opinion you must distinguish between a Great Ball and a Ball that is Great. Having said that a Ball that is Great has to fit several criteria. In no particular order
1) Looks, (and yes black looks good)
2) Not performance specific ( it can be tuned to cover a very wide range of conditions)
3) Driller friendly ( do need an a degree in Physics in order to understand and apply the drill patterns)
4) User friendly ( fits nearly all styles )
5) Marketability ( can grow sales legs and continue to be popular for a long time)
6) Performs as advertised ( just becausew the marketing says so doesn't always mean it actually does what they said)
A Great Ball is one that performs on what it is designed to be used on, may look good but is Great at doing the job it was meant to do. A Great Ball is usually followed up quickly by another version using the same core with a differnet cover in order to Create another Great Ball with a different performance or good on a different pattern etc.
Just my opinion.
Any comments?
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: Cobalt Bomb on April 09, 2012, 01:50:33 PM
In my opinion, it would be unusual for a great ball to be "great" with a pearl, hybrid and solid cover. If cover/core matchup is as critical as I believe, the best that can be hoped for is for it to be great with one cover, good with others.
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: charlest on April 10, 2012, 12:42:32 AM
" What makes a ball great?"
A high degree of versatility in the hands of a large percentage of users.
<div>In my opinion you must distinguish between a Great Ball and a Ball that is Great. Having said that a Ball that is Great has to fit several criteria. In no particular order</div> <div>1) Looks, (and yes black looks good)</div> <div>2) Not performance specific ( it can be tuned to cover a very wide range of conditions)</div> <div>3) Driller friendly ( do need an a degree in Physics in order to understand and apply the drill patterns)</div> <div>4) User friendly ( fits nearly all styles ) </div> <div>5) Marketability ( can grow sales legs and continue to be popular for a long time) </div> <div>6) Performs as advertised ( just becausew the marketing says so doesn't always mean it actually does what they said)</div> <div> </div> <div>A Great Ball is one that performs on what it is designed to be used on, may look good but is Great at doing the job it was meant to do. A Great Ball is usually followed up quickly by another version using the same core with a differnet cover in order to Create another Great Ball with a different performance or good on a different pattern etc. </div> <div>Just my opinion. </div> <div>Any comments? </div>
One thing that I think might be missed here and it is a small factor, but I think an important one, is durability. I have used a lot of equipment in the past 15 years, and perhaps is has to do with my lower rev rate, but performance dwindles with time. Perhaps in the 90's the oil wasn't put down with as much volume, or perhaps covers weren't as absorbent, but there is a distinct fall off in performance in just a month of usage (2-3 leagues a week + practice), no matter how much I clean it.
If I get a good matching ball, my average will go up, and honor scores will follow with a new ball, then they fall off. And I know it isn't just me, it happens to most of the people I bowl with. I think a great ball should maintain a semblance of it's original reaction for months, not just weeks.
This also factors into your original point about the 3-6 month rollout of new equipment. A lot of people love the "new ball" reaction. The extra pop on the backend and carry that comes with that. For people who can afford it, they will just buy a new ball when they see a reduction in their ball reaction.
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: dR3w on May 16, 2012, 09:43:34 AM
<div>" What makes a ball great?"</div><div></div><div>A high degree of versatility in the hands of a large percentage of users.</div>
<div><font color="green"><strong> "None are so blind as those who will not see." </strong></font></div><div><a href="http://www.bowlingchat.net"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000">BowlingChat.net</font></a></div><div><span style="color: #00ccff;"><strong> </strong></span></div><div> </div>
I'm not trying to be argumentative, just having a discussion ... but your response just describes a ball as versatile, not great.
I know a large number of bowlers who only like to play the house shot one way ... having a versatile ball for them, probably doesn't equate to being great. I would think that more than 50% of league bowlers don't compete in tournaments, and don't need versatile equipment. (but perhaps in reflection, they don't buy a lot of equipment anyway)
I think for a large number of bowlers the concept of changing hand position, tilt, axis rotation is foreign, and all they care about is getting to the pocket and carrying. For them, the simple answer is, I want a ball that will strike all the time.
I do agree though, that for better bowlers, the concept of versatility is important, although carry might be what everyone is looking for.
I guess what I am trying to say, and probably not clearly, is that what bowlers consider as "greatness" will vary with skill level, and for the average league bowler, versatility might not be as important as for a tournament bowler.
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: dizzyfugu on May 16, 2012, 10:26:19 AM
Yeah, just define "great". For some, the ball they shot their 300 with is "great", for others it's the big hook, versatility or utility to purpose. IMHO, this discussion is futile if you lack a definition or framework.
And just because many players use a certain ball or talk about it does not mean that it is "great". Many very good offerings from small brands or manufacturers are easily overlooked, and hardly get the hype they might deserve.
Agree with the durability aspect, though, which also includes ease and intensity of maintenance.
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: stopncrank on May 16, 2012, 11:02:47 AM
Any list of great balls without the Nuline X-caliber is incomplete...imho THE game changer that brought about the resin era...
In looking at the list, just say X-caliber, Storm X-Factor, BigB Danger Zone, C300 Cuda/C...one constant is it gave a majority of bowlers a reaction not really seen until that point. What really sticks out for me is the amount of bowlers who instantly got better just by drilling these balls, wether it was the ball that made them better, or just the confidence they got with the ball reaction(thats debateable), they were awesome balls.
Add to that, the Danger Zone was the first you could probably say that really matched cover/core in a way that not only worked for tons of bowlers, but really showed staying/lasting power in how long that cover and core were used years down the road for Brunswick...
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: Juggernaut on May 26, 2012, 01:18:10 PM
Phil,
You have asked a question that sounds reasonably simple, but is actually harder to answer than you might think.
What makes a ball great really isn't something that I think is quantifiable. If it were, making great balls would be as simple as plugging in the numbers and figuring out which way to go. Everyone knows it isn't that simple.
A ball that's great should cover a wide variety of conditions, and do so for a wide variety of bowlers. Balls that have done so in the past have usually become referred to as "great" balls.
A couple of the balls that jump to mind when talking about balls considered greats, are the original Brunswick Danger Zone, and the Ebonite Vortex2. Both of these balls were pieces that worked for a large portion of bowlers, and did so over a wide variety of lane conditions, and seemed to work just as well for crankers playing deep inside and strokers playing the twig. I can remember when it was hard to find my ball on the return because, out of the ten balls up there, eight of them were probably Danger Zones.
But, just having a ball with those qualities does not ensure that it will fall into the category of greatness, because a ball needs to be popular and recognized by the bowling public as being superior, and that can only happen through exposure, and this is something that is becoming harder and harder to do, especially with the market saturation we are seeing today.
What makes a ball great? Here are things I think are important. 1. Performance 2. Versatility 3. Visibility 4. Durability 5. Availability 6. Looks
P.S. For what it is worth, I really don't feel like most big manufacturers even allow balls to stay on the market long enough to become "great". Couple that with the fact that the big manufacturers expect their staff players to throw the "new" stuff on the TV show to bolster sales of the latest versions, and it begins to become obvious why nothing stays around and visible long enough to be considered "great".
An exception would be the Storm Hy-Road, and that is a ball that Storm has been trying to find a way to kill off for two years now by trying replacement after replacement, all of which have failed to perform well enough to kill it. In the old days, this ball would've been a contender for the "great" term.
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: newguy on May 29, 2012, 10:40:30 AM
I think you are right on, the industry has prevented great balls from having the longevity balls of the past have had. 1) Every July 1st is happy new ball day, why is that the case? 2) Is the next ball really better than the last? 3) The new balls that are coming out in July, are they really better than the ones launched last year? 4) The issue has become marketing vs. performance. If we are told they are better they must be!
I have a different approach.
Title: Re: What makes a ball great
Post by: Juggernaut on May 29, 2012, 06:30:28 PM
I think you are right on, the industry has prevented great balls from having the longevity balls of the past have had. 1) Every July 1st is happy new ball day, why is that the case?
People, being what we are, are ALWAYS looking or that edge, that little bit that will let us outperform our opponents AND our previous bests. Sadly, the major manufacturers have played on that, and have flooded the market with piece after piece, every time extolling the greater virtues of each new piece over the last.
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2) Is the next ball really better than the last?
No, but you already knew that.
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3) The new balls that are coming out in July, are they really better than the ones launched last year?
Again, no they are not, but the manufacturers have convinced a greedy and gullible consumer that the best thing for them to do is have the newest pieces possible, just in case it might make a difference.
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4) The issue has become marketing vs. performance. If we are told they are better they must be!
EXACTLY!
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I have a different approach.
Yes you do, and I believe you are on the right track. Thing is, I am only one person, and from what I can see, the masses and multitudes couldn't care less about tried, true, and proven performance. Seems all anyone cares about anymore is having the latest and shiniest "new toy" available to them.