BallReviews
Equipment Boards => Roto Grip => Topic started by: Luke Rosdahl on October 13, 2017, 11:15:39 AM
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Nothing here you can't learn on the webpage, but I do have a few thoughts regarding both of these. Thanks!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ad5v298xB4
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I'm not sure I see the Danger as fitting in between the Trick and original Daredevil. I suspect it will be the weakest of the 3 balls. The original Daredevil has the NRP cover. The Danger has the Hustle SAY cover. We can agree that the Hustle hybrid and pearls have stronger covers than their placement in the lineup, but stronger than the NRP cover?
Then we have the new Show Off using the PRO cover. That's also going to be interesting to see how the new ball is going to react. The Danger will definitely be the stronger between the two new balls, but how both balls react compared to their categories will be interesting to see. As I posted in another thread, I will be surprised if they match up strong, medium, and weak with solid, hybrid, and pearl.
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I'm not sure I see the Danger as fitting in between the Trick and original Daredevil. I suspect it will be the weakest of the 3 balls. The original Daredevil has the NRP cover. The Danger has the Hustle SAY cover. We can agree that the Hustle hybrid and pearls have stronger covers than their placement in the lineup, but stronger than the NRP cover?
Then we have the new Show Off using the PRO cover. That's also going to be interesting to see how the new ball is going to react. The Danger will definitely be the stronger between the two new balls, but how both balls react compared to their categories will be interesting to see. As I posted in another thread, I will be surprised if they match up strong, medium, and weak with solid, hybrid, and pearl.
Danger may not be stronger than the DD, but I do think it'll be a more controllable readable reaction with more length and movement than the Trick. Which is exactly what I want right now. Schlem compares it to the Hy-Wire. I see it being a touch earlier as that Hy-Wire had some length to it.
I think the Show Off will be like the Wreck-It.
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That's fair. Those hybrid Hustle covers are actually really strong, Schlemer himself said the Danger cover is stronger than the Hywire cover was, that's where I got that from, and the Hywire is pretty strong. I think the SAY and the PRO suffered from covers that were way too strong for the cores. NRP cover is strong, but that core is a beast, and a lot of flare can make a huge difference. Hyroad Pearl and Code Black are totally different balls with the same cover, but the Black has the strongest legal core on the market, and the Black is an arrow and a half stronger. The Madcap core dominates the shape of the Dare Devil line, so I'm curious. You make a great point though . .
I'm not sure I see the Danger as fitting in between the Trick and original Daredevil. I suspect it will be the weakest of the 3 balls. The original Daredevil has the NRP cover. The Danger has the Hustle SAY cover. We can agree that the Hustle hybrid and pearls have stronger covers than their placement in the lineup, but stronger than the NRP cover?
Then we have the new Show Off using the PRO cover. That's also going to be interesting to see how the new ball is going to react. The Danger will definitely be the stronger between the two new balls, but how both balls react compared to their categories will be interesting to see. As I posted in another thread, I will be surprised if they match up strong, medium, and weak with solid, hybrid, and pearl.
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I think the Show Off will be the flippiest one or the one most like the Hywire. High RG, high diff, it's going to shoot down the lane and turn sideways. I don't see the Danger being anything like the Hywire. If it is, I'll be stunned out of my shoes.
I'm not sure I see the Danger as fitting in between the Trick and original Daredevil. I suspect it will be the weakest of the 3 balls. The original Daredevil has the NRP cover. The Danger has the Hustle SAY cover. We can agree that the Hustle hybrid and pearls have stronger covers than their placement in the lineup, but stronger than the NRP cover?
Then we have the new Show Off using the PRO cover. That's also going to be interesting to see how the new ball is going to react. The Danger will definitely be the stronger between the two new balls, but how both balls react compared to their categories will be interesting to see. As I posted in another thread, I will be surprised if they match up strong, medium, and weak with solid, hybrid, and pearl.
Danger may not be stronger than the DD, but I do think it'll be a more controllable readable reaction with more length and movement than the Trick. Which is exactly what I want right now. Schlem compares it to the Hy-Wire. I see it being a touch earlier as that Hy-Wire had some length to it.
I think the Show Off will be like the Wreck-It.
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That's fair. Those hybrid Hustle covers are actually really strong, Schlemer himself said the Danger cover is stronger than the Hywire cover was, that's where I got that from, and the Hywire is pretty strong. I think the SAY and the PRO suffered from covers that were way too strong for the cores. NRP cover is strong, but that core is a beast, and a lot of flare can make a huge difference. Hyroad Pearl and Code Black are totally different balls with the same cover, but the Black has the strongest legal core on the market, and the Black is an arrow and a half stronger. The Madcap core dominates the shape of the Dare Devil line, so I'm curious. You make a great point though . .
I'm not sure I see the Danger as fitting in between the Trick and original Daredevil. I suspect it will be the weakest of the 3 balls. The original Daredevil has the NRP cover. The Danger has the Hustle SAY cover. We can agree that the Hustle hybrid and pearls have stronger covers than their placement in the lineup, but stronger than the NRP cover?
Then we have the new Show Off using the PRO cover. That's also going to be interesting to see how the new ball is going to react. The Danger will definitely be the stronger between the two new balls, but how both balls react compared to their categories will be interesting to see. As I posted in another thread, I will be surprised if they match up strong, medium, and weak with solid, hybrid, and pearl.
Madcap core seemed like a "safe bet" but I'm not complaining at all haha.
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That's fair. Those hybrid Hustle covers are actually really strong, Schlemer himself said the Danger cover is stronger than the Hywire cover was, that's where I got that from, and the Hywire is pretty strong. I think the SAY and the PRO suffered from covers that were way too strong for the cores. NRP cover is strong, but that core is a beast, and a lot of flare can make a huge difference. Hyroad Pearl and Code Black are totally different balls with the same cover, but the Black has the strongest legal core on the market, and the Black is an arrow and a half stronger. The Madcap core dominates the shape of the Dare Devil line, so I'm curious. You make a great point though . .
The Hy-Wire cover was R2S Hybrid wasn't it?
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Not entirely sure, but wouldn't be surprised. Didn't seem like it to me, but maybe it was. The Show Off cover is the Nano cover, so if it wasn't exactly, it was probably really close.
That's fair. Those hybrid Hustle covers are actually really strong, Schlemer himself said the Danger cover is stronger than the Hywire cover was, that's where I got that from, and the Hywire is pretty strong. I think the SAY and the PRO suffered from covers that were way too strong for the cores. NRP cover is strong, but that core is a beast, and a lot of flare can make a huge difference. Hyroad Pearl and Code Black are totally different balls with the same cover, but the Black has the strongest legal core on the market, and the Black is an arrow and a half stronger. The Madcap core dominates the shape of the Dare Devil line, so I'm curious. You make a great point though . .
The Hy-Wire cover was R2S Hybrid wasn't it?
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That's fair. Those hybrid Hustle covers are actually really strong, Schlemer himself said the Danger cover is stronger than the Hywire cover was, that's where I got that from, and the Hywire is pretty strong. I think the SAY and the PRO suffered from covers that were way too strong for the cores. NRP cover is strong, but that core is a beast, and a lot of flare can make a huge difference. Hyroad Pearl and Code Black are totally different balls with the same cover, but the Black has the strongest legal core on the market, and the Black is an arrow and a half stronger. The Madcap core dominates the shape of the Dare Devil line, so I'm curious. You make a great point though . .
As I said, it will be interesting to see. All educated guessing at this point. I mentioned the NRP cover as that is also on the original Daredevil. The only real difference I see in the two balls is shape. The NRP handles a little more oil for me, but I wouldn't say it is a huge difference. I also don't have these balls drilled remotely the same. NRP is 4x4x1, if I recall. And the Daredevil is 5x3x4. Trick is as well.
I haven't thrown the hybrid hustles. However, now that I've thought about it more, my Hustle POW is very close in strength to my Daredevil. So the Danger very well could fit in between the Trick and Daredevil.
Originally, my plan was to buy the eventual hybrid (love the first two balls) and drill them the same. Keep the Trick in the 1000-2000 range. Hybrid at 3000-4000. And DD shiny. Still likely the plan, but I'm not as set in stone as I was when the hybrid was just an assumption.
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That's fair. Those hybrid Hustle covers are actually really strong, Schlemer himself said the Danger cover is stronger than the Hywire cover was, that's where I got that from, and the Hywire is pretty strong. I think the SAY and the PRO suffered from covers that were way too strong for the cores. NRP cover is strong, but that core is a beast, and a lot of flare can make a huge difference. Hyroad Pearl and Code Black are totally different balls with the same cover, but the Black has the strongest legal core on the market, and the Black is an arrow and a half stronger. The Madcap core dominates the shape of the Dare Devil line, so I'm curious. You make a great point though . .
The Hy-Wire cover was R2S Hybrid wasn't it?
62M so who really knows. Probably close if not.
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RotoGrip would really benefit from a more streamlined, transparent approach around their coverstocks.
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RotoGrip would really benefit from a more streamlined, transparent approach around their coverstocks.
I think they are getting there, at least closer to Storm's method. Seeing a lot of coverstocks used on multiple balls in different lines lately.
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I was considering this ball for my friend, he has a Rhino right now & needs a "pro" ball for when we get a little bit of oil. This place has a shorter house pattern that gets chewed up before we even start in our 6 person league. I think the Solid Trick would be too much & I know that I have trouble using my Radical Ridiculous Pearl because i either hit dry middle or carrydown to the right. I was hoping the hybrid version would give the best of both worlds but if its really just the hustle coverstock, thats a bit disappointing. I'd like to have something that can handle a fair amount of oil but also kinda take some dry. Really dry he'll use the rhino for.
Thoughts on if we should wait for this release or theres a better product in the rotogrip/storm line now?
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These balls are arriving for me tomorrow so I'll have videos up at some point this weekend I hope.
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These balls are arriving for me tomorrow so I'll have videos up at some point this weekend I hope.
It will be interesting to see the reactions for these.
Going back to the earlier discussion, I just checked that core/cover chart that someone posted awhile ago. The Stoked cover is apparently the weakest resin cover. The Psyched is not much higher - well below Amped. So either the chart is wrong, or there is not much separation between their higher end and lower end covers.
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Danger definitely isn't the weakest of them all. It's right between them in terms of hook, but way more shape than either of the previous ones. Instead of being really smooth, it's super super clean and almost sharp. I figured out what it's good at now, and it's really really good at it, but the good and bad news is that it doesn't act like a Dare Devil. It's the perfect compliment to the other two, but doesn't feel like it should say Dare Devil on the ball at all.
I went ahead and ordered the Danger online last night before league because I had some free amazon credits to pay for most of it. They claim it shipped today and a UPS tag was generated. It would be cool to get it by Black Friday!
I did a lot of research on it, and concluded that it's the weakest of em all but it should have a little more movement in the back which is all I'm looking for. Tough choice between the Danger and OG version, but the Trick works so well for me that I leaned towards the Hybrid.
I used my Trick last night for all 3 games in scratch league and it really worked well for me and was very impressive. I could sure use the Danger if my research says it is what I think it well be.
Thanks to all for the pre analysis of the ball!
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Danger definitely isn't the weakest of them all. It's right between them in terms of hook, but way more shape than either of the previous ones. Instead of being really smooth, it's super super clean and almost sharp. I figured out what it's good at now, and it's really really good at it, but the good and bad news is that it doesn't act like a Dare Devil. It's the perfect compliment to the other two, but doesn't feel like it should say Dare Devil on the ball at all.
I would argue that that makes it the weakest. Strength should be measured from front to back, not side to side. Clean with back end is actually a weak bowling ball.
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Danger definitely isn't the weakest of them all. It's right between them in terms of hook, but way more shape than either of the previous ones. Instead of being really smooth, it's super super clean and almost sharp. I figured out what it's good at now, and it's really really good at it, but the good and bad news is that it doesn't act like a Dare Devil. It's the perfect compliment to the other two, but doesn't feel like it should say Dare Devil on the ball at all.
I would argue that that makes it the weakest. Strength should be measured from front to back, not side to side. Clean with back end is actually a weak bowling ball.
It's all opinion on strength. I see strength as the amount of oil capability
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I'm not measuring it side to side, hook and backend are two different things. It also has more traction in oil than the original, which is longer and smoother. Just because something goes long doesn't also mean it's clean. The Danger is both earlier and stronger off friction than the original, what makes it clean is how defined the motion is. Easy through the heads, strong on friction. The DD is easy down the lane too, goes further, and is smoother. It's clean-ish, but the ball motion all kind of blends together. I'd argue the Sure Lock is pretty clean too, and it's the most aggressive ball on the market, so apparently our definitions of clean are pretty different.
Danger definitely isn't the weakest of them all. It's right between them in terms of hook, but way more shape than either of the previous ones. Instead of being really smooth, it's super super clean and almost sharp. I figured out what it's good at now, and it's really really good at it, but the good and bad news is that it doesn't act like a Dare Devil. It's the perfect compliment to the other two, but doesn't feel like it should say Dare Devil on the ball at all.
I would argue that that makes it the weakest. Strength should be measured from front to back, not side to side. Clean with back end is actually a weak bowling ball.
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Danger definitely isn't the weakest of them all. It's right between them in terms of hook, but way more shape than either of the previous ones. Instead of being really smooth, it's super super clean and almost sharp. I figured out what it's good at now, and it's really really good at it, but the good and bad news is that it doesn't act like a Dare Devil. It's the perfect compliment to the other two, but doesn't feel like it should say Dare Devil on the ball at all.
I would argue that that makes it the weakest. Strength should be measured from front to back, not side to side. Clean with back end is actually a weak bowling ball.
It's all opinion on strength. I see strength as the amount of oil capability
Well that too. But generally speaking, most heavy oil balls are not covering a ton of boards. They are digging in sooner and, most often, smoother. In terms of the Danger, I see no way that it is stronger than either of the other two. The core is the same (isn't it?) and it uses a weaker cover than either of the other balls. Therefore, it should be weaker. And having seen it go down the lane in person, plus seeing Luke's video, it definitely looks weaker to me.
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I'm not measuring it side to side, hook and backend are two different things. It also has more traction in oil than the original, which is longer and smoother. Just because something goes long doesn't also mean it's clean. The Danger is both earlier and stronger off friction than the original, what makes it clean is how defined the motion is. Easy through the heads, strong on friction. The DD is easy down the lane too, goes further, and is smoother. It's clean-ish, but the ball motion all kind of blends together. I'd argue the Sure Lock is pretty clean too, and it's the most aggressive ball on the market, so apparently our definitions of clean are pretty different.
I just don't see it with the Danger. I have seen it now in person from a local staffer, and it looks weaker than the original for sure. I just don't see how it can possibly be earlier than the DD with that cover. As I said previously, the RG chart would have to be wrong then. You've said before that your house shot is on the lighter oil side. I can see it being more responsive off the friction, but it's not going to handle the oil as well. This makes it weaker. We have to account for the conditions as well as ball motion.
I have my Sure Lock drilled 4x4x1 and I would say that it is clean for being an aggressive ball, but nowhere as clean as some of the other balls in the Storm/RG family. It's also not super quick off the spot either. I've used it on short sport patterns with success because of it.
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And I know that, friction flips the script, it can make weaker balls with quicker responses look like they hook more than technically more aggressive balls. For me anyway the Danger is stronger than the original. I used the Danger for most of the weekend out of town at two other different houses. My home house shot has changed somewhat and is actually on the heavier side of medium now, I can use my Intense comfortably there. I used my original Dare Devil quite a bit and already have a few dozen games on my Danger now. I still think it's stronger no matter what the chart says. That may sound ignorant, but Schlemer also said the cover on the Danger is also a bit stronger than the Hywire cover, which would also buck the chart, not to mention HP literally stands for hook potential and the HP2 line completely throws that out the window everytime a ball comes out in that line lol.
I get what you're saying, I just absolutely swear the Danger has more traction in oil for me at least than the original. My Match Up Pearl also shapes like urethane, so my experience may not necessarily reflect the majority either. I think I still have some OG Dare Devil footage on the computer so I may go back and check it out, but the shot I was on for the OG was considerably drier, so may not be able to draw a good comparison, plus my rev rate has dropped since then. Oh well. This wouldn't be the first time it's been different for me, and likely not the last.
I'm not measuring it side to side, hook and backend are two different things. It also has more traction in oil than the original, which is longer and smoother. Just because something goes long doesn't also mean it's clean. The Danger is both earlier and stronger off friction than the original, what makes it clean is how defined the motion is. Easy through the heads, strong on friction. The DD is easy down the lane too, goes further, and is smoother. It's clean-ish, but the ball motion all kind of blends together. I'd argue the Sure Lock is pretty clean too, and it's the most aggressive ball on the market, so apparently our definitions of clean are pretty different.
I just don't see it with the Danger. I have seen it now in person from a local staffer, and it looks weaker than the original for sure. I just don't see how it can possibly be earlier than the DD with that cover. As I said previously, the RG chart would have to be wrong then. You've said before that your house shot is on the lighter oil side. I can see it being more responsive off the friction, but it's not going to handle the oil as well. This makes it weaker. We have to account for the conditions as well as ball motion.
I have my Sure Lock drilled 4x4x1 and I would say that it is clean for being an aggressive ball, but nowhere as clean as some of the other balls in the Storm/RG family. It's also not super quick off the spot either. I've used it on short sport patterns with success because of it.
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And I know that, friction flips the script, it can make weaker balls with quicker responses look like they hook more than technically more aggressive balls. For me anyway the Danger is stronger than the original. I used the Danger for most of the weekend out of town at two other different houses. My home house shot has changed somewhat and is actually on the heavier side of medium now, I can use my Intense comfortably there. I used my original Dare Devil quite a bit and already have a few dozen games on my Danger now. I still think it's stronger no matter what the chart says. That may sound ignorant, but Schlemer also said the cover on the Danger is also a bit stronger than the Hywire cover, which would also buck the chart, not to mention HP literally stands for hook potential and the HP2 line completely throws that out the window everytime a ball comes out in that line lol.
I get what you're saying, I just absolutely swear the Danger has more traction in oil for me at least than the original. My Match Up Pearl also shapes like urethane, so my experience may not necessarily reflect the majority either. I think I still have some OG Dare Devil footage on the computer so I may go back and check it out, but the shot I was on for the OG was considerably drier, so may not be able to draw a good comparison, plus my rev rate has dropped since then. Oh well. This wouldn't be the first time it's been different for me, and likely not the last.
I did go back and watch your DD video because I really wanted to see for myself. It DOES look like you are probably correct with what you have been saying, but that depends on all those factors you mentioned. Tamer's video also suggests that the Danger fits in between, although to be honest - despite him raving about it - I did not like how his ball was getting to the pocket in the video.
I just know that I was originally all in for any hybrid version that came out. Then I was mostly out once I started seeing the "facts" about it. Then I saw it in the hands of the local staffer this past weekend and I kept telling her I was going to steal it. It just looked really clean going down lane. It made a nice move, but not super jumpy. Based on seeing her throw the original - which I got to witness again during a weekend tournament (we were on the same pair) - the original still looks earlier and a little smoother to me. But I would have to also examine her layouts and see the surface. The Danger was at box, I believe, and I know what that does to most balls out of Utah...
I guess it comes back to the same discussions between the Intense and the Code Red - which includes the video with the pros, people are seeing different reactions between them. Some have the Intense stronger and some the Code Red. Seems to be the same with the Daredevils. I guess I will just have to drill one up and see.
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You probably have it right with that last statement, might just be a case of being different for different people.
And I know that, friction flips the script, it can make weaker balls with quicker responses look like they hook more than technically more aggressive balls. For me anyway the Danger is stronger than the original. I used the Danger for most of the weekend out of town at two other different houses. My home house shot has changed somewhat and is actually on the heavier side of medium now, I can use my Intense comfortably there. I used my original Dare Devil quite a bit and already have a few dozen games on my Danger now. I still think it's stronger no matter what the chart says. That may sound ignorant, but Schlemer also said the cover on the Danger is also a bit stronger than the Hywire cover, which would also buck the chart, not to mention HP literally stands for hook potential and the HP2 line completely throws that out the window everytime a ball comes out in that line lol.
I get what you're saying, I just absolutely swear the Danger has more traction in oil for me at least than the original. My Match Up Pearl also shapes like urethane, so my experience may not necessarily reflect the majority either. I think I still have some OG Dare Devil footage on the computer so I may go back and check it out, but the shot I was on for the OG was considerably drier, so may not be able to draw a good comparison, plus my rev rate has dropped since then. Oh well. This wouldn't be the first time it's been different for me, and likely not the last.
I did go back and watch your DD video because I really wanted to see for myself. It DOES look like you are probably correct with what you have been saying, but that depends on all those factors you mentioned. Tamer's video also suggests that the Danger fits in between, although to be honest - despite him raving about it - I did not like how his ball was getting to the pocket in the video.
I just know that I was originally all in for any hybrid version that came out. Then I was mostly out once I started seeing the "facts" about it. Then I saw it in the hands of the local staffer this past weekend and I kept telling her I was going to steal it. It just looked really clean going down lane. It made a nice move, but not super jumpy. Based on seeing her throw the original - which I got to witness again during a weekend tournament (we were on the same pair) - the original still looks earlier and a little smoother to me. But I would have to also examine her layouts and see the surface. The Danger was at box, I believe, and I know what that does to most balls out of Utah...
I guess it comes back to the same discussions between the Intense and the Code Red - which includes the video with the pros, people are seeing different reactions between them. Some have the Intense stronger and some the Code Red. Seems to be the same with the Daredevils. I guess I will just have to drill one up and see.
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You probably have it right with that last statement, might just be a case of being different for different people.
It's probably different based on styles as well. You seem to be more of an inside player. I'm more on the outside of the lane, as is the local staffer. And with the case of the Intense/Code Red, you had Pete Weber (inside) having a different reaction than the two women. My PSO also has those two balls flipped from me, and he generally plays more inside than I do. A little more around the ball, where I'm more up the back. He's generally more rev dominant, where I'm more even to speed dominant.