BallReviews
Equipment Boards => Roto Grip => Topic started by: TheGom on December 17, 2014, 12:31:57 PM
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Always wanted a Wrecker but was afraid if the "snap" at the BP
Has anyone drilled a Pin Down 55x4x70 range? I need a controlled move at the BP on the shot that I see.
I saw Schlem working it on a RG vid up the boards...look good.
Shot is on AMF Syn, 40 ft, driving backends, and can be a bit over under
Me, PAP 4 up 1/2, Speed at line, 16.5, Revs 225-240, tilt 17, Ro 55-70
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I had a pin down wrecker, mostly threw it on college sport shots, but it did exactly what you are talking about. The wrecker was great because it would clear the heads with the pearl additive but was smooth and predictable on the backend from the solid additive/layout.
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no reason why it shouldnt work. taking the polish off will also be a must
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Seems to defeat the entire purpose of the Wrecker to me. Why not just choose a ball that already has a controlled move at the BP? There are plenty of them out there.
Life(and bowling) can be much simpler if you let it.
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So are you saying that this ball is not meant for a Pin Down or Controlled Drilling? Or are you saying that this ball really shines much better with a Pin Up drilling and is sluggish when drilled Pin Down?
I respect and understand that there "smoother" balls out there off the BP that would be a better overall choice, but the eye candy and the price got me!
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So are you saying that this ball is not meant for a Pin Down or Controlled Drilling? Or are you saying that this ball really shines much better with a Pin Up drilling and is sluggish when drilled Pin Down?
I respect and understand that there "smoother" balls out there off the BP that would be a better overall choice, but the eye candy and the price got me!
It is a great looking ball, that's for sure. It can probably be made smooth off the friction, but it really shines as a go long, big snap back-end ball. And the price IS really good right now.
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I have a pin up wrecker for the skid/flip reaction and a pin under Outcry that probably does exactly what you are hoping a pin under wrecker would do. It comes 4000 dull, so still clears the fronts nicely and has smooth, controlled look off the breakpoint.
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I wouldn't say the ball is t made for a higher Val ( pin down). A lot of this depends in release. I'm a higher tilt player so a ball like this with a Lower Val angle might be uncontrollable. So I would drill pin down or higher Val. That doesn't mean the ball wouldn't be snappy for me
As a comparison look at my arsenal. I get more snap out of my pin down Lights out than my pin up Shock. Depends on the ball and your style. So for my style a pin down (60-70) Val Wrecker will still have some snap
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I have 2 Wreckers, one pin under the bridge and the other pin above the ring finger. I love the pin down and rarely use the pin up. For me the pin down is more controllable but still has a strong finish and keeps me from getting into trouble. I keep both of them at 4000 as polished stuff is too squirty for me. The Outcry may be a good option to go with as well but I haven't thrown it yet.
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Drilled one pin down when the ball came out, since its my favorite drill. Ball was very disappointing. Ball was basically DOA on arrival at the pocket. With several friends with Wreckers drill pin up just a huge difference in power. I did try a couple different surfaces with no real difference. I have one I picked up to drill pin up, but have not started rolling 15's again since RC surgery.
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Drilled one pin down when the ball came out, since its my favorite drill. Ball was very disappointing. Ball was basically DOA on arrival at the pocket. With several friends with Wreckers drill pin up just a huge difference in power. I did try a couple different surfaces with no real difference. I have one I picked up to drill pin up, but have not started rolling 15's again since RC surgery.
Tex, what's you specs please?
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I had a pin up Wrecker that was more on the skid/snap side and I loved the ball (5" pin-to-PAP, CG shifted out a bit, and hole on PAP). However, I ended up selling it because it was a bit too touchy on the lanes. I found it to be difficult to use on sport shots and I ended up putting it back in the bag. It had quite a bit of angle down the lane and gave me frequent messengers (as well as frequent stone 9's). I did my Youtube research and I am planning to give the Wrecker another try...
I looked to Chris Forry, TJ Trout, and Walter McKnight (all bowlers I definitely watch videos for before buying/drilling a ball) and they all chose a pin down layout for their videos. Check out Chris Forry's ball reaction...he used a 55 x 4 1/4". I really like the reaction of their pin down Wreckers and is more in line with what I am looking for in a medium-dry ball for my arsenal.
Also, not that I am anywhere near Belmo's stats, but he mentioned in the Storm In the Bag segment for the 2013 Bear Open that he tried a pin up Wrecker in practice, but was too angular and had to be a bit "too perfect" to make it work. He ended up using the pin down Wrecker to blend out the reaction a bit more and eventually won the Bear Open (and also used a different pin down Wrecker for the 2013 TOC). Reaction and the shape looked great in both telecasts.
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I had a pin up Wrecker that was more on the skid/snap side and I loved the ball (5" pin-to-PAP, CG shifted out a bit, and hole on PAP). However, I ended up selling it because it was a bit too touchy on the lanes. I found it to be difficult to use on sport shots and I ended up putting it back in the bag. It had quite a bit of angle down the lane and gave me frequent messengers (as well as frequent stone 9's). I did my Youtube research and I am planning to give the Wrecker another try...
Check out Chris Forry's ball reaction...he used a 55 x 4 1/4". I really like the reaction of their pin down Wreckers and is more in line with what I am looking for in a medium-dry ball for my arsenal.
I cannot find this video....link?
Yes I have noticed many reviews with the pin down. Joel and Zack at Bowlersdeals also went pin down....would love to see CF's review
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Don't be too focused on pin height when merely referencing pin above or below the gripping holes...you are not manipulating enough mass removed to truly effect reaction...splitting hairs here honestly
Get pin to pap distance desired to create wanted flare and then either adjust surface to alter speed it slows down and/or add a flare effecting weight hole
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Don't be too focused on pin height when merely referencing pin above or below the gripping holes...you are not manipulating enough mass removed to truly effect reaction...splitting hairs here honestly
Get pin to pap distance desired to create wanted flare and then either adjust surface to alter speed it slows down and/or add a flare effecting weight hole
Simply put, pin up or down doesn't matter? If so, I agree.
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If there's a relative distance between the 2 pin placements it could depending on the shape of the core...but for the most part yes to your statement
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Chris Forry's review (starts at 1:23): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8ZbffAashM
Also, I wanted to bring to attention 2 other clips that discuss pin down/pin up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmS6oNlWBa8
Starts at 1:15, where there was negligible difference between pin up/pin down but, rather, the coverstock is key.
Carolyn Dorin-Ballard discusses bowling arsenal selection in this clip. She has a pin down Wrecker and explains her rationale for it starting at 1:27. Again, coverstock is supreme compared to pin up/pin down and that pin down is definitely not contraindicated for a supposed skid/snap ball or a drier lane ball:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnrhqbVFUvs
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My Wrecker is 45*5*70 with a p2 hole.
It's is an excellent ball with this layout. It will still go plenty long enough and flip on the back end. It is very usuable across multiple conditions with the box or 4000 abralon surface.
For reference my specs are 400 rpm, axis point is 5-3/4 with 3/16 down, around 13 degrees tilt.
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What if you have a high travk and you can't use "pin down"?
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"Pin down" means nothing. People assume that to equate to a higher Val angle. It's the angle that matters not whether it's down or up
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"Pin down" means nothing. People assume that to equate to a higher Val angle. It's the angle that matters not whether it's down or up
I disagree, but I'm not getting into a cock measuring contest on pin up vs pin down.
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"Pin down" means nothing. People assume that to equate to a higher Val angle. It's the angle that matters not whether it's down or up
VAL angle is just a way to measure and communicate the layout on the ball. In reality it does matter whether it is pin up or pin down. Or more specifically, where the finger holes and thumb hole remove mass from the core. That is what changes the ball reaction for a given pin to PAP and ball surface. Give me two balls with a 5 inch pin to PAP, one with the pin at the center grip and one with the center grip 6 3/4 from the pin. I will guarantee that the reaction to friction will be nothing alike.
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My point was that depending on pap, a high Val angle can still be above fingers and react just a smooth as a guy who had the same Val angle and it ends up below the fingers.
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My point was that depending on pap, a high Val angle can still be above fingers and react just a smooth as a guy who had the same Val angle and it ends up below the fingers.
Yes it could. But I don't think the reason is because they both use a high degree VAL angle. They could both use a high VAL angle and the guy with the lower pin could also be a lot more snappy. Once you start changing PAPs, releases, speed, etc , between bowlers anything can happen..
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What about an UpRoar? The lower diff of the UpRoar core vs. the Wrecker core makes it less flippy in comparision.
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I think the OP already purchased the wrecker and wants to know how to get it as smooth as possible. I think you could put the pin at center grip or go 1 1/2 to 3 inches pin to pap. And then alter the surface to tune the reaction to friction. I think that will be your best bet to smooth out the reaction on the Wrecker. If you go pin at center grip you may have to put a weight hole to bring it legal and depending where you put it, it could create more flare and asymmetry and make the ball flippy. You could put the weight hole less than 3 3/8 from the pin to help with this. Only issue there is that it could reduce the flare so much that you get very little flare or rings that are very close together and create a very weak ball. You would have to throw it and see how it reacts and then decide where to put the weight hole based on what flare and reaction you get.
What is your PAP? This could be a factor when putting the pin at center grip.
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just like people saying "rico" enough already. rico is not a layout.
if i have 4 people come in, drilling the same ball, the same DAL being used, guess what, it might "pin up or down" however, its the same damn drilling.
one of the worst things to happen in this industry is online nonsense, and social media which made every person an "expert" in assumptions, not reality.
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just like people saying "rico" enough already. rico is not a layout.
if i have 4 people come in, drilling the same ball, the same DAL being used, guess what, it might "pin up or down" however, its the same damn drilling.
one of the worst things to happen in this industry is online nonsense, and social media which made every person an "expert" in assumptions, not reality.
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Rico, is that you?
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Yup I'm merely a social media hack that knows absolutely nothing on drilling fitting layouts or ball motion....ZERO...
Anybody that understands ball motion and the effect that flare has on motion understands there are no such thing as layouts but merely flare management...put a name on it and people get their panties bent cause it's not named after them...
Rico does exist and it creates a motion due to asymmetry and how it effects each type of roll...it's a matter of understanding this instead of merely discounting due to a name
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I'm also interested in the 'personal' attack on a name...no one but you brought it up to attack....interesting rant eh?
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first off, i am relatively new to this site.
second, had no idea someone had the name "rico
third, there was no personal attack
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Yup I'm merely a social media hack that knows absolutely nothing on drilling fitting layouts or ball motion....ZERO...
Anybody that understands ball motion and the effect that flare has on motion understands there are no such thing as layouts but merely flare management...put a name on it and people get their panties bent cause it's not named after them...
Rico does exist and it creates a motion due to asymmetry and how it effects each type of roll...it's a matter of understanding this instead of merely discounting due to a name
You're either very crazy or way ahead of your time. So let me get this straight, there is no such things as layouts, merely flare management, or put another way, the layout dictates how much or how little flare and where it flares?
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I'm crazy...but trust me I tend to look at motion differently than most
And you made the comment in regards to a layout that you say you knew nothing about...weird
What's a DAL?
Layouts are used to create a necessary or desired amount of flare so the ball transitions properly once it slows down...correct? Ok so a 5" pin should create a certain amount of flare dependent upon rev rate...is there a specific name for that?
All one is trying to do is control the amount of flare so it compliments what one wants the ball to do as well as not over flare...
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I'm crazy...but trust me I tend to look at motion differently than most
And you made the comment in regards to a layout that you say you knew nothing about...weird
What's a DAL?
Layouts are used to create a necessary or desired amount of flare so the ball transitions properly once it slows down...correct? Ok so a 5" pin should create a certain amount of flare dependent upon rev rate...is there a specific name for that?
All one is trying to do is control the amount of flare so it compliments what one wants the ball to do as well as not over flare...
Actually, I didn't make the comment about a "DAL" or any layout stuff, Id go re-read the posters and their responses again before you recklessly go calling people out.
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No that was two part one to you and one to the other guy
Sorry should of separated
I was commenting abt flare management to you...
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No that was two part one to you and one to the other guy
Sorry should of separated
I was commenting abt flare management to you...
So I understand, flare management and surface is pretty all bowlers need to control for ball motion? This is also totally off the subject, but in a nutshell whats the idea behind keeping your trail leg down ?
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Surface is primary...flare effects after the ball is allowed to slow down properly
Trail leg down minimizes hitting up at the line or smooth out the release
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Surface is primary...flare effects after the ball is allowed to slow down properly
Trail leg down minimizes hitting up at the line or smooth out the release
Thanks.