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Author Topic: wrong impression of Rogue  (Read 5188 times)

Lower_Level

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wrong impression of Rogue
« on: March 16, 2009, 12:43:54 AM »
I got a rogue cell drilled up this weekend; pin over ring, CG kicked right , MB kicked WAY out (I think the drilling is 6x4 by roto's website) We chose this drilling cause I was hoping that this ball would cover alot more area than my Break s75 (Pin over bridge, CG on midline).  I have to say I did not get the reaction that I was looking for at all.  To find pocket; I was throwing basically straight up the 10 board; and about 50 ft down the lane the ball looked like it was kicked straight left!! Don't get me wrong, the ball is very strong off the dry; but I was wanting to be able to swing this ball & it simply turns too late to allow this.  Did we choose the wrong drilling?  Or is this just what the ball is designed to do?  

Would a surface change to 2000 abralon from 4000 make much difference?  Or would it kill the reaction entirely?

This is my first Roto ball & I'm not sure how they take to surface changes...
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Jeffrevs

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2009, 09:03:18 AM »
With all due respect, ... 6x4 drilling? What did you expect? You're almost 2x further than maximum reaction pin placement....
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Nodsleinad

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2009, 09:08:01 AM »
Use my drill calculator and stop guessing.  


http://www.princetonbowl.com/Drill%20Calculator.xls
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Dan Belcher

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2009, 09:17:06 AM »
Taking the cover to a lower grit will allow the ball to hook sooner and be smoother, but be careful about going too rough -- this will cause the ball to hook so early that it burns up energy and has trouble carrying.

The type of drilling you selected is definately a long-and-strong drilling.  If you want the ball to hook a lot period, you probably will need to go with a stronger pin to PAP placement.  Also bear in mind that the MB can be used to tweak the reaction shape, and you may need the MB to be a little further away from your VAL to smooth out the reaction some.

So in summary, try 2000 abralon first.  See how the ball rolls.  If you still don't like the reaction, a plug and redrill is probably your best option.
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Lower_Level

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2009, 09:19:38 AM »
okay it is quite possible that I have no idea what I'm talking about so I measured the ball in front of me.

pin to balance hole (on PAP) - 5"
CG to PAP - 3.5"
Ball has a 3" pin

MB is 3" to the right of thumb center.

does that make it sound any less rediculous?
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Dan Belcher

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2009, 09:23:31 AM »
Pretty big difference between 5" and 6" pin to PAP, but that's still a fairly long-and-strong type of drilling.  How far is the MB from the PAP?

And either way, I still recommend playing around with surface changes before doing anything else.
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Lower_Level

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2009, 09:26:27 AM »
MB to PAP is 3"
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tloy

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2009, 10:40:15 AM »
Definately try surface first. There was a world of difference in 4000 box finish and 2000 grit. Good Luck
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BallsDeep

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2009, 11:06:29 AM »
I would also opt for a surface change first.  Even with such a strong motor, the surface is still the primary factor in the ball's reaction.  By going from 4000 to 2000, I figure the ball should start up about 3 or 4 feet sooner, which should make quite a bit of difference.
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charlest

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2009, 11:46:04 AM »
quote:
MB to PAP is 3"
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More important is the PAP-pin-MB angle and how close the MB is to the VAL.

If you say you kicked the MB "Way Out", you probably reduced the backend of the ball too much. On strong MB balls, the closer you place the MB to the VAL or the smaller the PAP-pin-MB angle, the smaller the backend of the ball. The MB angle/position has a strong effect on the ball's reaction, especially the backend shape.

Unless the pin is very high over the ring finger or you have a very high track and high numerical PAP, the pin to PAP is not likely to be 6". It could be. What is your PAP? You must know it or the driller couldn't have, shouldn't have drilled this ball.

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Looking at your profile for your PAP, you say your league average is 185. If I might suggest something: instead of buying huge hooking, strong mass bias strike balls, maybe a few dollars invested in a spare ball, 3 or 4 games a week practicing spares and some coaching lessons might be a better investment in time and money. Just a suggestion. No offense intended.
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Lower_Level

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2009, 12:12:23 PM »
quote:
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Looking at your profile for your PAP, you say your league average is 185. If I might suggest something: instead of buying huge hooking, strong mass bias strike balls, maybe a few dollars invested in a spare ball, 3 or 4 games a week practicing spares and some coaching lessons might be a better investment in time and money. Just a suggestion. No offense intended.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."


No offence taken I'll be the first to admit that spares are a killer - 10 pin mainly but that's a whole other discussion not meant for this thread.  But the reason I bought a "huge hooking, strong mass bias strike ball" was to get a different look on the lane that would allow me to play away from the typical shot played at our house that gets burned up & carried down etc. way too fast for my inconsistencies.  Does that make sense?

BTW: I've never known my PAP but driller I used for this ball spent a long time analyzing my track on an older ball I'm assuming to calculate the PAP.  Foolishly didn't give it alot of thought at the time, probably should have.  May have to call him & ask for future reference...
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charlest

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2009, 12:21:51 PM »
Lower_level,

Just a little more information to help you make a better decision:

The S75 is already a big hooking, very strong mass bais ball. You/your driller would also have needed your accurate PAP to drill this one correctly.

For the average bowler, there's not going to be a day and night difference between the S75 and the Rogue Cell, BOTH drilled correctly.

One other fairly important fact about strong Mass Bias balls, the bowler needs a good deal of consistency in their release and ball speed to make these work well. That is, in part, why your specific release specifications (PAP, tilt, roation, ball speed) are all essential when laying out these balls.

Good luck, no matter what you decide.

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charlest

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2009, 12:30:11 PM »
quote:
quote:
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Looking at your profile for your PAP, you say your league average is 185. If I might suggest something: instead of buying huge hooking, strong mass bias strike balls, maybe a few dollars invested in a spare ball, 3 or 4 games a week practicing spares and some coaching lessons might be a better investment in time and money. Just a suggestion. No offense intended.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."


No offence taken I'll be the first to admit that spares are a killer - 10 pin mainly but that's a whole other discussion not meant for this thread.  But the reason I bought a "huge hooking, strong mass bias strike ball" was to get a different look on the lane that would allow me to play away from the typical shot played at our house that gets burned up & carried down etc. way too fast for my inconsistencies.  Does that make sense?


The idea, yes. That ball, maybe not so much,
For your skill level, I personally might not have suggested such a ball. But that is all I know about you. So whoever suggested the "latest and greatest" could have been right.

quote:

BTW: I've never known my PAP but driller I used for this ball spent a long time analyzing my track on an older ball I'm assuming to calculate the PAP.  Foolishly didn't give it alot of thought at the time, probably should have.  May have to call him & ask for future reference...
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Yes, but it also makes me wonder why he put the MB so far away, if I understand your implication. Unless you have a lot of tilt or a high axis of rotation, the ball will roll and roll and not have much backend, as you have learned.
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insidedrive

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2009, 01:22:29 PM »
What is your PAP measurement?

If you throw a standard Pap, somewhere between 41/2 - 5 over by x up then I'd say you kicked the pin too far right and put the MB past your VAL.  I bet you're angle to the VAL is very large, >70 degrees.  This decreases overall the reaction on the backend of the lane (like charlest mentioned).

Also, if you've drilled the CG kicked way out then you may have put the MB past the VAL those closing the drilling angle drastically.  If this is the case the ball is drilled to pick up based on friction (and not ball characteristic) and have little to no backend.

I think people have a tendency to get too caught up in pin over/pin under drillings.  If you have the track and PAP of a pro then pin over and pin under bridge works, as it lines up mathematically, but if you have a pap like me (5 1/2 over by 1 up) then a pin over or pin under is way to radical of a drill, it would be like a 10 degrees x 5 inch pin to pap x 100 degrees, which is an undesirable drill.

Based on what you said you wanted I'd say you were looking for something more like a 3 x 5 drilling, in dual angle it'd be 45 x 3 x 30 or something similar

This would give you early pick off the lane with strong backend, and the 3 inch pin will allow you to read the midlane and pick up in the oil.

That kind of a layout for me looks like this:

-----p
-oo
 
-O
------CG

I'm sure people will disagree with me but for my PAP that's the best layout I have to open up the lane.  I've got it on my NTense LevRG and my Break Point and they are my best long/heavy pattern balls.
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dballz

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Re: wrong impression of Rogue
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2009, 03:04:42 PM »
insidedrive, my pap is similar to yours, and i have drilled most of my stuff around 70 x 4 - 4 1/4" x 45. for me this is a skid/flip type reaction. have you tried anything 60 x 4 x 45? kind of looking at doing a rogue like that, for the longer/heavier patterns. or should 45* be the way to go? just looking for some opinions.
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