Post by: Lower_Level on March 16, 2009, 12:43:54 AM
Would a surface change to 2000 abralon from 4000 make much difference? Or would it kill the reaction entirely?
This is my first Roto ball & I'm not sure how they take to surface changes...
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Unofficial Member Of The Canadian National Beer Drinking Team
Post by: Jeffrevs on March 16, 2009, 09:03:18 AM
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Jeff
The Revless Wonder and King Douchebag!
Post by: Nodsleinad on March 16, 2009, 09:08:01 AM
http://www.princetonbowl.com/Drill%20Calculator.xls
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LTBOCSFM
Post by: Dan Belcher on March 16, 2009, 09:17:06 AM
The type of drilling you selected is definately a long-and-strong drilling. If you want the ball to hook a lot period, you probably will need to go with a stronger pin to PAP placement. Also bear in mind that the MB can be used to tweak the reaction shape, and you may need the MB to be a little further away from your VAL to smooth out the reaction some.
So in summary, try 2000 abralon first. See how the ball rolls. If you still don't like the reaction, a plug and redrill is probably your best option.
Post by: Lower_Level on March 16, 2009, 09:19:38 AM
pin to balance hole (on PAP) - 5"
CG to PAP - 3.5"
Ball has a 3" pin
MB is 3" to the right of thumb center.
does that make it sound any less rediculous?
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Unofficial Member Of The Canadian National Beer Drinking Team
Post by: Dan Belcher on March 16, 2009, 09:23:31 AM
And either way, I still recommend playing around with surface changes before doing anything else.
Post by: Lower_Level on March 16, 2009, 09:26:27 AM
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Unofficial Member Of The Canadian National Beer Drinking Team
Post by: tloy on March 16, 2009, 10:40:15 AM
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Todd Loy
Roto Grip King of Them All!!!!
Post by: BallsDeep on March 16, 2009, 11:06:29 AM
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four fried chickens and a coke[/size=4]
Let me say something, let me say something...
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Post by: charlest on March 16, 2009, 11:46:04 AM
quote:
MB to PAP is 3"
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Unofficial Member Of The Canadian National Beer Drinking Team
More important is the PAP-pin-MB angle and how close the MB is to the VAL.
If you say you kicked the MB "Way Out", you probably reduced the backend of the ball too much. On strong MB balls, the closer you place the MB to the VAL or the smaller the PAP-pin-MB angle, the smaller the backend of the ball. The MB angle/position has a strong effect on the ball's reaction, especially the backend shape.
Unless the pin is very high over the ring finger or you have a very high track and high numerical PAP, the pin to PAP is not likely to be 6". It could be. What is your PAP? You must know it or the driller couldn't have, shouldn't have drilled this ball.
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Looking at your profile for your PAP, you say your league average is 185. If I might suggest something: instead of buying huge hooking, strong mass bias strike balls, maybe a few dollars invested in a spare ball, 3 or 4 games a week practicing spares and some coaching lessons might be a better investment in time and money. Just a suggestion. No offense intended.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: Lower_Level on March 16, 2009, 12:12:23 PM
quote:
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Looking at your profile for your PAP, you say your league average is 185. If I might suggest something: instead of buying huge hooking, strong mass bias strike balls, maybe a few dollars invested in a spare ball, 3 or 4 games a week practicing spares and some coaching lessons might be a better investment in time and money. Just a suggestion. No offense intended.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
No offence taken I'll be the first to admit that spares are a killer - 10 pin mainly but that's a whole other discussion not meant for this thread. But the reason I bought a "huge hooking, strong mass bias strike ball" was to get a different look on the lane that would allow me to play away from the typical shot played at our house that gets burned up & carried down etc. way too fast for my inconsistencies. Does that make sense?
BTW: I've never known my PAP but driller I used for this ball spent a long time analyzing my track on an older ball I'm assuming to calculate the PAP. Foolishly didn't give it alot of thought at the time, probably should have. May have to call him & ask for future reference...
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Unofficial Member Of The Canadian National Beer Drinking Team
Post by: charlest on March 16, 2009, 12:21:51 PM
Just a little more information to help you make a better decision:
The S75 is already a big hooking, very strong mass bais ball. You/your driller would also have needed your accurate PAP to drill this one correctly.
For the average bowler, there's not going to be a day and night difference between the S75 and the Rogue Cell, BOTH drilled correctly.
One other fairly important fact about strong Mass Bias balls, the bowler needs a good deal of consistency in their release and ball speed to make these work well. That is, in part, why your specific release specifications (PAP, tilt, roation, ball speed) are all essential when laying out these balls.
Good luck, no matter what you decide.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: charlest on March 16, 2009, 12:30:11 PM
quote:quote:
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Looking at your profile for your PAP, you say your league average is 185. If I might suggest something: instead of buying huge hooking, strong mass bias strike balls, maybe a few dollars invested in a spare ball, 3 or 4 games a week practicing spares and some coaching lessons might be a better investment in time and money. Just a suggestion. No offense intended.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
No offence taken I'll be the first to admit that spares are a killer - 10 pin mainly but that's a whole other discussion not meant for this thread. But the reason I bought a "huge hooking, strong mass bias strike ball" was to get a different look on the lane that would allow me to play away from the typical shot played at our house that gets burned up & carried down etc. way too fast for my inconsistencies. Does that make sense?
The idea, yes. That ball, maybe not so much,
For your skill level, I personally might not have suggested such a ball. But that is all I know about you. So whoever suggested the "latest and greatest" could have been right.
quote:
BTW: I've never known my PAP but driller I used for this ball spent a long time analyzing my track on an older ball I'm assuming to calculate the PAP. Foolishly didn't give it alot of thought at the time, probably should have. May have to call him & ask for future reference...
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Unofficial Member Of The Canadian National Beer Drinking Team
Yes, but it also makes me wonder why he put the MB so far away, if I understand your implication. Unless you have a lot of tilt or a high axis of rotation, the ball will roll and roll and not have much backend, as you have learned.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: insidedrive on March 16, 2009, 01:22:29 PM
If you throw a standard Pap, somewhere between 41/2 - 5 over by x up then I'd say you kicked the pin too far right and put the MB past your VAL. I bet you're angle to the VAL is very large, >70 degrees. This decreases overall the reaction on the backend of the lane (like charlest mentioned).
Also, if you've drilled the CG kicked way out then you may have put the MB past the VAL those closing the drilling angle drastically. If this is the case the ball is drilled to pick up based on friction (and not ball characteristic) and have little to no backend.
I think people have a tendency to get too caught up in pin over/pin under drillings. If you have the track and PAP of a pro then pin over and pin under bridge works, as it lines up mathematically, but if you have a pap like me (5 1/2 over by 1 up) then a pin over or pin under is way to radical of a drill, it would be like a 10 degrees x 5 inch pin to pap x 100 degrees, which is an undesirable drill.
Based on what you said you wanted I'd say you were looking for something more like a 3 x 5 drilling, in dual angle it'd be 45 x 3 x 30 or something similar
This would give you early pick off the lane with strong backend, and the 3 inch pin will allow you to read the midlane and pick up in the oil.
That kind of a layout for me looks like this:
-----p
-oo
-O
------CG
I'm sure people will disagree with me but for my PAP that's the best layout I have to open up the lane. I've got it on my NTense LevRG and my Break Point and they are my best long/heavy pattern balls.
Post by: dballz on March 16, 2009, 03:04:42 PM
Post by: insidedrive on March 16, 2009, 03:17:51 PM
For the heavier/longer patterns if you're looking for something to turn the corner and handle the oil then the smaller the angles the better (just not too small). Anything around 30 x 3-4 x 30 would be find. Give or take 10 to 20 degrees on either side.
In my experience people that bowl on longer/heavier patterns are looking for control and not so much hook on the oil. For something like that I'd personally go with a 30 x 3 x 60. That'll control the hook on the back end but let the ball pick up early.
Luckily there's lots of room for adjustment with dual angle layouts with a PAP like mine. So for me as a general rule on longer patterns I keep my drilling angle around 30-50 and my angle to the val around 20-45. Based on your axis tilt it may vary for you, but that's my general rule of thumb for those pattern drills.
Post by: Steve Richter on March 16, 2009, 04:20:57 PM
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Steve Richter
Post by: carlos on March 16, 2009, 04:39:35 PM
Post by: charlest on March 16, 2009, 06:27:52 PM
quote:
What would be a good layout for the Rogue ?
Hmm, not reading what was written?
That could help you.
It depends on your PAP, rev rate, ball speed, tilt, Rotation, the oil pattern on which you're bowling, the lane surface and the reaction you desire/want/need.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 3/16/2009 6:28 PM
Post by: Lower_Level on March 17, 2009, 08:35:49 PM
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Unofficial Member Of The Canadian National Beer Drinking Team
Post by: Steve Richter on March 18, 2009, 02:16:36 AM
What has me more curious is your flare split you list as between 1/2" and 3/4" That is HUGE, and I would expect your ball to burn early then, even if you have high ball speed, and for sure if you have any kind of rev rate.
Seriously LL, to help you more we're going to need the info above. The data you've provided seems to contradict what you're seeing for ball reaction. Maybe you could take a vidio and post it here to help us get a relative feel if you don't have the data we're looking for.
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Steve Richter
Post by: Lower_Level on March 18, 2009, 09:56:53 AM
will post tomorrow!
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Unofficial Member Of The Canadian National Beer Drinking Team
Post by: Lower_Level on March 19, 2009, 05:20:26 PM
Anyone who regularily posts videos what programs do you use & how do you compress them for size?
I will post a link if it ever finishes!
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Unofficial Member Of The Canadian National Beer Drinking Team
Post by: Lower_Level on March 19, 2009, 10:20:40 PM
The lanes were league leftovers of our 42ft. THS with ome carrydown. So the ball isn't quite as snappy as it was on the fresh shot monday. If I can, I will try & bring the camera with me to league next week.
I am not a pro bowler by any means so I know my form etc. isn't perfect. I welcome any constructive critisizm but the video's intent is to show the ball not me.
The bumpers are up because my kids were bowling with me not cause I need them... LOL!
http://s62.photobucket.com/albums/h95/Lower_Level/?action=view¤t=roguecell10001.flv
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Unofficial Member Of The Canadian National Beer Drinking Team
Post by: nd300 on March 19, 2009, 10:31:40 PM
The one shot where you did stay balanced you threw the ball well. Make all of your shots---both strike and spare shots--- like that and you'll notice an immediate improvement.
Work on leg strength by simply doing body weight squats and calf raises and you'll be better for it.
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Chris
JTTDB---Just Throw The Damn Ball
Don't "think"---that ball isn't in your bag yet..........
Post by: Steve Richter on March 20, 2009, 08:14:21 AM
I have a few comments, and please understand these are intended to help you and minimize frustrations.
1) I don't believe your layout is a 6" x 4". While I can see you track high, that pin position would make your horizontal axis coordinate something like 6-1/2".
My advice: Never let any pro shop drill another ball for you without them knowing your PAP,physical game, and what you want out of the ball. It's unfair to you to plunk down that kind of $$ to not understand what your stuff is intended to do. They need to be better at helping you on this.
2) I don't think that your game is suited for sending too far away from the pocket in a "swinging" fashion. You thumb the ball down at the release and you are past the leverage point when the thumb comes out which makes your ball track higher. Meaning your stuff reads the front, not the backs, forcing you to play straighter. Even if you had the most whippy ball available, you would get enhanced motion, but not like others get who you bowl with.
My Advice: PM me and I'll give you a trick I use on my students that helps get them to track lower (in this scenario). When done correctly, you'll do less work and get more out of the ball.
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Steve Richter
Edited on 3/20/2009 8:15 AM
Post by: Lower_Level on March 20, 2009, 09:02:41 AM
Steve: I'm appreciative of any advise & suggestions. PM sent!
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Unofficial Member Of The Canadian National Beer Drinking Team
Post by: insidedrive on March 20, 2009, 09:08:01 AM
Steve Richter said exactly what I would say. After watching you bowl I have a hard time beliving that layout is a 6 x 4. I am also going to guess that you have a high track PAP similar to what Steve mentioned. That layout looks more like a 4.5 by 4.5 or even a 5 x 3.75 kind of drill. I also agree with Steve that for your style of play you may not be able to open up the lanes as much as you'd like, which is by no means a bad thing. A straighter game really is a better game and you've got a great style for that.
One thing to note is that you have your pin positioned above the fingers and the CG slightly kicked to the right. For a high track bowler this would create a greater angle to the val which will tame the backend of the ball. Working off of what Steve said if you have a style that already doesn't have a huge backend then now you've completely tamed what the ball will do in the last 20 feet of the lane. I think the CG and MB are actually in very good positions, by my estimate your drilling angle is something around 50 degrees or so which is not terrible, although if you really want the ball to read early that should be < 45.
In my opinion what you have is a very versatile ball for moderate to heavily oiled patterns but you'll have to go straight up the outside part of the lane. I would personally use this ball with that layout on a shot like the cheetah, viper or even chameleon, gives good midlane read with a tamed but consistent back end.
It's not that you drilled a dud, just that the reaction characteristic is not what you were intending. Try out some more straight up outside lines on heavier shots (fresh ths, tournament, etc) and see if it gives you the nice look that I and possibly others would expect. The best part about a layout like this is you can polish it and it becomes a great THS ball with some snap on the backend.