Author Topic: Help with my new Reign (Read 7289 times)

Komodo · « **on:** September 21, 2009, 09:10:29 PM »

I brought a spare ball into a pro shop to have the span adjusted and to my surprise they had a new Reign ball out on display. Owner said he had gotten some in early. Anyways, it was the new ball I had decided I wanted when it was released so I went ahead and bought it then and there. I want to make it clear that I'm not by any means a great bowler. Only been at it for 2 years, but I'm starting to get a lot better and so far am carrying a 175 average in league. I wanted to purchase my first high performance ball and the Reign seemed to be exactly what I had in mind. Something really angular and strong off the break. Also I wanted to have the drilling done based on my PAP. The pro shop guy took my PAP by looking at the track on my spare ball (though I had only rolled that a few times so I can't imagine it had much of a track) and I explained to him the reaction I was looking for and told him to punch it up. Picked it up the next day but did not have time to roll it then and there. It was drilled so as the pin was dead left of center, sort of over middle finger, and about .75 inches above. Anyways, took it out later and the reaction was simply not at all what I expected. My old ball is a Brunswick Wizard and I expected a drastically different reaction from that. What I got was damn near indiscernible. I'm not a high rev player (which I explained at the time of purchase) and I tend to roll straight up the 5 board with speed. I expected to be able to play much more in to out using this ball and still get recovery. Quite frankly I saw no difference in reaction. Is it possibly that I just don't put enough rev's on the ball to get it to react any differntly? Or, is it that the drill really wasn't the right one for me? I'd appreciate and thoughts you have.

Also on a side note. Is it normal when a pro shop drills a ball to use a scribe to mark up the ball? I mean I realize its just cosmetic and that a bowling ball ends up looking crappy after a couple weeks of bowling anyway, but isn't it normal to want your new ball to look new? Not only was my new Reign all scribed up from finger holes to thumb but the guy also did the same to my previously unmarked spare ball when he fixed the span.

Edited on 9/24/2009 4:07 PM

pinspeaker · « **Reply #16 on:** September 22, 2009, 04:46:14 PM »

quote:
quote:
Never use a spare ball to get your PAP...

Why not? Assuming you use the same release, the pap should be the same, shouldn't it?

I think the assumption here is that hardly anyone throws their "spare ball" at the spares the same way they thrown their strike shots. Unless someone is using a plastic ball on their first shot in league, I wouldn't use it to find anyone's PAP either. JMHO

r534me · « **Reply #17 on:** September 22, 2009, 06:55:12 PM »

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Never use a spare ball to get your PAP...

Why not? Assuming you use the same release, the pap should be the same, shouldn't it?

I think the assumption here is that hardly anyone throws their "spare ball" at the spares the same way they thrown their strike shots. Unless someone is using a plastic ball on their first shot in league, I wouldn't use it to find anyone's PAP either. JMHO

Maybe, the person should use his regular release with a plastic ball to measure the pap unless he didn't have one. Ideally, the driller would have used the spare ball after it's been tossed on the lanes and not measuring just the track.

http://www.bowlspot.com/page/pap

sammy · « **Reply #18 on:** September 22, 2009, 09:11:51 PM »

quote:
Low flaring balls (plastic) are how you find PaPs... I don't get that reasoning jls, enlighten me?

Komodo also said he has a 175 avg, so he would have an erratic release I'm sure ?

Komodo, give the ball a chance.. Does the ball hook when it comes off the oil? Is it more flippy than the other ball? Does it seem to skid too far before reading the dry? How far do they oil the lanes? The house you have a current avg in, is it the only house you bowl in? You could try it in other centers and let us know if the reaction is the same

--------------------
A former member of the 20/20 Club 'cause sciatica sucks

I have seen my pap vary by up to 1/2" depending on what ball I use. I don't try to hook at a 10 pin, therefore my release is different. If I'm drilling an oil ball, I will use my pap of another oil ball. If I'm drilling up a go long polished ball, I will do the same, take he pap of a ball for that same condition.. Now I know some people will say their pap is always the same.. I don't believe that. And I know for sure that on my balls, they aren't. If I drill up a Freeze for a 3rd game shot to tame down the backend, I might not hit it the same as I would a 715T drilled aggressive for a game 1 ball. Therefore my pap will vary slightly... The pap was not this bowlers problem. It looks like he wanted something aggressive. The pin over the middle finger is probably way to tame for this bowler. He might want to plug the ball and have it drilled stronger. I agree with that 4 by 4 drilling with a 2" pin buffer. So no matter what ball he had his pap taken from, what did it really matter. The drilling he got was way to weak for him.

formosasproshop · « **Reply #19 on:** September 22, 2009, 10:12:14 PM »

Assuming the releaase is the same is the correct phrasing. I know PERSONALLY my spare ball track is very tight to the fingers (high roller), end to end. However my NORMAL release is a good 1/2" to 3/4" off the fingers, more of a medium track. So my PAP on my spare ball is way different. When I grab a PAP in our shop its ALWAYS from fresh thrown ball with FRESH oil tracks. We have bowler toss ball a couple times, mark the track, Then have him toss it a few more times to verify the track. All BEFORE even attempting to get the PAP.

I've seen a lot of shop CLAIM to be drilling a ball specifically for YOU!! But in reality they are using generic layouts and never actually taking your PAP into account.

As for the layout that you describe with the pin being above middle finger. My GUESS is that you were given a 5" pin with a generic 4x2 PAP (or is it 4X1? haven't used generic PAPs in years, lol). This would put the pin just above the middle finger.

Unfortunatly it sounds like you got a bum deal on your layout. Where is the CG of the ball? I am going to guess its probably near grip center or maybe a bit past? Wondering if you were given something like a 5x4 layout. Which is not a bad layout playing the area you want, IF the bowlers TRUE PAP if used.

PERSONALLY I WOULD TAKE IT BACK INTO THE SHOP AND ASK FOR SPECIFICS. WHAT WAS THE EXACT LAYOUT USED? WHAT WAS YOUR PAP? TRY AND RESOLVE THE ISSUE BEFORE GOING SOMEWHERE NEW.

As someone said before, we have lost customers who have not brought grievences back to our attention. One that comes to mind bought a Fury last year. Drilled it for him (150 ave. bowler too) using his specs giving him what he wanted. Midseason he changes way he throws and the ball stops working. Instead of coming to use to have it checked and possibly corrected he takes it to nearest OTHER pro shop (an hr away). What he got in return was a plugged ball with a basic 45 degree drilling. No PAP used nothing. Now ball is useless and his average has dropped to 130.

--------------------
In Bag (15lbs):

Nomad Pearl (55x5x35)
LevRG Response (45x4.5x45)
Rogue Cell (60x4.5x40)
PACKERS VIZ-A-BALL!!

tommygn · « **Reply #20 on:** September 23, 2009, 08:38:51 AM »

Actually, because of todays high performance cores and covers, the best way to find your PAP IS with a pancake weight block, harder shelled ball. The one thing that is being missed, is yes, you use your strike ball release to get the oil ring. Obviously, if you are flattening out your shot, you have now altered your normal release. High performance balls want to pull away form the PAP and find its way to it's preferred spin axis. Because of this, you may find variations of your PAP in different balls. Your balls should be drilled from this PAP, so as to get the true reaction that you are looking for out of the chosen drilling for the ball. Using that consistent PAP will also allow you to alter your release when playing different angles, and the bowling balls responding appropriately with said release changes.
--------------------
Tommy Gollick
Storm Regional/Pro Shop staff
Red Crown Pro Shop Harrisburg, PA
stormbowling.com

r534me · « **Reply #21 on:** September 23, 2009, 09:12:02 AM »

quote:
Actually, because of todays high performance cores and covers, the best way to find your PAP IS with a pancake weight block, harder shelled ball. The one thing that is being missed, is yes, you use your strike ball release to get the oil ring. Obviously, if you are flattening out your shot, you have now altered your normal release. High performance balls want to pull away form the PAP and find its way to it's preferred spin axis. Because of this, you may find variations of your PAP in different balls. Your balls should be drilled from this PAP, so as to get the true reaction that you are looking for out of the chosen drilling for the ball. Using that consistent PAP will also allow you to alter your release when playing different angles, and the bowling balls responding appropriately with said release changes.
--------------------
Tommy Gollick
Storm Regional/Pro Shop staff
Red Crown Pro Shop Harrisburg, PA
stormbowling.com

You stated it best. I used my white dot with my strike release playing the oil to get my Pap. Let's hope people arne't actually trying to get a strike playing the dry instead!

jls · « **Reply #22 on:** September 23, 2009, 09:24:38 AM »

quote:
Low flaring balls (plastic) are how you find PaPs... I don't get that reasoning jls, enlighten me?

Komodo also said he has a 175 avg, so he would have an erratic release I'm sure ?

Komodo, give the ball a chance.. Does the ball hook when it comes off the oil? Is it more flippy than the other ball? Does it seem to skid too far before reading the dry? How far do they oil the lanes? The house you have a current avg in, is it the only house you bowl in? You could try it in other centers and let us know if the reaction is the same

--------------------
A former member of the 20/20 Club 'cause sciatica sucks

Ok sir, first lets address the topic at hand... Poor performance of this new ball... Now as I see it, this person wanted something stronger, so he could 'open up the lane"...

I don't believe drilling the ball with the pin over the MF would help this bowler, nor is it what he wanted or needed...

Now what happened here is this, This so called VIP pro shop got a new release in as per the program, but instead of drilling it for himself or a high average bowler he may know or have as a customer at a reduced price... He sold it to this guy probably at full price...

Now as I see it, the reason to get the new releases into a shop early, is to create interest.... This is usually done by having a highend bowler use the ball. thus others will see him scoring and ask, "what ball was that, or is that the new Storm release, etc etc etc...

By selling this ball early, before the actual release date to this guy, all the pro shop did was put the ball with a weak drilling in the hands of a 175 avg. bowler, who died with the ball...

And now, several days before the release date, he is writing a poor review on the ball, base on what it did or did not do for him...

Therefore any interest in this ball by some of the locals would tend to be negative... If they saw him bowling poorly with it...

"hey I saw that new Storm Release, and boy it sucked, guy couldn't get it to the pocket" This is not good....

And with that drilling, which is a good long smooth backend type of drilling, it did not match up to this bowler, at "tall"...

This a bad review... on a really good ball... why, because some converted broom closet storm VIP pro shop sold the ball for a fast profit... Instead of doing what most good pro shops would do... Which is, either drill it up for themselves or sell it at a reduced price to a good high average bowler, with a good drilling on it...

Thus having a better chance to get some good positive feedback and create good interest in this new release...

The first review I saw of this new ball was this one,,, Now I can see why it was a bad review... But will joe blow average customer see it that way, or will he thing this ball is a dud.....

This is not good.

Now as for the pap...

In this case it wouldn't matter if the big guy in the sky took the pap...
A accurate pap on a poorly laid out ball, will usually mean, poor results..

Now if you or anyone wish to believe that taking the pap on a 10 pin ball, { we don't call them plastic, we call them 10 pin balls ] is the most accurate, then so be it.....

--------------------
jls

Edited on 9/23/2009 4:25 PM

formosasproshop · « **Reply #23 on:** September 23, 2009, 10:34:24 AM »

JLS someone piss you your wheeties this morning, lol. But guess what I AGREE WITH YOU!!

We belong to the Storm VIP program in our shop and I would say 90% of the balls are punched up for myself. Gives us a good read on what the new balls look like. After tossing them for a few weeks, IF they haven't managed to make it to my perminent bag they are then resold at a pretty nice discount to an average league bowler looking for a "new" ball but doesn't want to pay the cost for some of the top end stuff. They get a ball with minimum games on it (plugged and redrilled for them of course) and we usually come close to breaking even on the ball.

As for your PAP rave, you hit the nail on the head.

P.S. One good bowling niece you got there. My 11 year old son has 3 200+ games already this year with an 11lbs USED Smash Time, LOL!!! The lord above knows I would never listen to him about drilling!! (Oh and he is only using the 11lbs Smash Time he steps up to 12lbs equiptment, then he gets some real stuff)

SIDENOTE FOR JLS - Is the Freeze as good as I have heard at 12lbs? We have 4 Freezes on BACKORDER hoping to get them in this week.
--------------------
In Bag (15lbs):

Nomad Pearl (55x4.5x35)
LevRG Response (45x4.5x45)
Rogue Cell (60x4.5x40)
PACKERS VIZ-A-BALL!!

jls · « **Reply #24 on:** September 23, 2009, 10:47:18 AM »

quote:
JLS someone piss you your wheeties this morning, lol. But guess what I AGREE WITH YOU!!

We belong to the Storm VIP program in our shop and I would say 90% of the balls are punched up for myself. Gives us a good read on what the new balls look like. After tossing them for a few weeks, IF they haven't managed to make it to my perminent bag they are then resold at a pretty nice discount to an average league bowler looking for a "new" ball but doesn't want to pay the cost for some of the top end stuff. They get a ball with minimum games on it (plugged and redrilled for them of course) and we usually come close to breaking even on the ball.

As for your PAP rave, you hit the nail on the head.

P.S. One good bowling niece you got there. My 11 year old son has 3 200+ games already this year with an 11lbs USED Smash Time, LOL!!! The lord above knows I would never listen to him about drilling!! (Oh and he is only using the 11lbs Smash Time he steps up to 12lbs equiptment, then he gets some real stuff)

SIDENOTE FOR JLS - Is the Freeze as good as I have heard at 12lbs? We have 4 Freezes on BACKORDER hoping to get them in this week.
--------------------
In Bag (15lbs):
Nomad Pearl (55x4.5x35)
LevRG Response (45x4.5x45)
Rogue Cell (60x4.5x40)
PACKERS VIZ-A-BALL!!

The Freeze just may be the best ball for the price on the market...Around HERE you will see them in MANY many high average bowlers hands... As well as average bowlers..All three colors are doing well...Even in 12lbs...

Their BRAND NEW BALL GOT SLAMMED...........

I saw that and ADDRESSED IT...

I clearly posted why I felt this bowler did not like the results from his BRAND NEW REIGN...

You would think someone from STORM would have notice the topic at hand and Addressed it...A very weak drilling on a ball for a weak handed bowler....

Actually someone did and I missed it....

In golf, they say, "a bad putt is better then a bad chip"...
Which means, if you can, putt it....

In bowling, A good layout even without a known PAP is better then a BAD layout with a good PAP.....

As for the p in the cereal... No, I'm like this all the time...

Have a good day
--------------------
jls

Edited on 9/23/2009 4:28 PM

tommygn · « **Reply #25 on:** September 23, 2009, 02:10:14 PM »

I guess you missed the earlier post about surface and possibly needing a balance hole. Funny I wasn't there to know why the driller drilled the ball the way he did, or have seen the bowler bowl, that is why I recommended for Komodo to go talk to his pro shop. It seems as though the poster and the pro shop operator are the only two that were.
--------------------
Tommy Gollick
Storm Regional/Pro Shop staff
Red Crown Pro Shop Harrisburg, PA
stormbowling.com

Nails · « **Reply #26 on:** September 23, 2009, 02:40:25 PM »

If his PAP is in the 3-4" range, pin over middle finger would still be pretty strong. We don't know if his release is powerful enough or if he can repeat shots well enough to see the difference. No offense intended.

I guess the folks, at say, keyboard pounders like Ebonite International, wouldn't know what they're talking about when they say to use the "10 pin ball" with the normal release to find the PAP.

http://ebonite.com/resources/bowling_tip_detail/the_positive_axis_point

Relevant part:

quote:
It is easiest to locate the PAP from a lower flaring ball. I would suggest a spare ball. Clean off the ball with a towel, removing all of the oil rings. Find the part of the lane where there is oil (usually around the 4th arrow) and throw the ball down the lane with your normal release. When the ball comes back, there will be an oil ring. This is your ball track. Trace the ball track with a wax pencil to make it easier to locate. Place the ball in a ball cup (ashtray, etc.) with the ball track side of the ball down. The PAP will be the point that is equidistant from each point of the ball track. Use a tape measure from several points of the ball track until you find the spot that is the same distance from all points of the ball track. This point will be your PAP.

--------------------
Telling it like it is.

jls · « **Reply #27 on:** September 23, 2009, 03:39:03 PM »

quote:
I guess you missed the earlier post about surface and possibly needing a balance hole. Funny I wasn't there to know why the driller drilled the ball the way he did, or have seen the bowler bowl, that is why I recommended for Komodo to go talk to his pro shop. It seems as though the poster and the pro shop operator are the only two that were.
--------------------
Tommy Gollick
Storm Regional/Pro Shop staff
Red Crown Pro Shop Harrisburg, PA
stormbowling.com

You're are right, I did see that. I just didn't realize you wrote it...

Sorry about that..

But the whole point was this ball was drilled very weak for this type of bowler, and that was the topic at hand... However many post were about the PAP.

So once again, sorry about missing your earlier post...
--------------------
jls

Komodo · « **Reply #28 on:** September 24, 2009, 09:12:34 AM »

Thanks for the advise all. I'm having the ball redrilled and going to give it another try.

Would like to address something however. This post was never meant to be some sort of official ball review. I bought a new ball and was disappointed after throwing it and hoped to get some input from bowlers of a higher skill level and of greater knowledge, which for the most part I did. I made it perfectly clear that I was not a "bowler" as stated by another poster. I was completely honest about my ability, lack of bowling experience, and style (low revs). I want to apologize to anyone offended, in particular jls, if my post soured the taste of his Kool Aid. I was unaware that only postive comments should be posted, or that only "elite" level bowlers were allowed to post. It pains me that in this economic climate I may have so carelessly brought upon the financial ruin of what I'm sure is a great company, making a great product.

jls · « **Reply #29 on:** September 24, 2009, 12:23:52 PM »

quote:
Thanks for the advise all. I'm having the ball redrilled and going to give it another try.

Would like to address something however. This post was never meant to be some sort of official ball review. I bought a new ball and was disappointed after throwing it and hoped to get some input from bowlers of a higher skill level and of greater knowledge, which for the most part I did. I made it perfectly clear that I was not a "bowler" as stated by another poster. I was completely honest about my ability, lack of bowling experience, and style (low revs). I want to apologize to anyone offended, in particular jls, if my post soured the taste of his Kool Aid. I was unaware that only postive comments should be posted, or that only "elite" level bowlers were allowed to post. It pains me that in this economic climate I may have so carelessly brought upon the financial ruin of what I'm sure is a great company, making a great product.

Maybe you should have said your were upset with the drilling or the driller, and not the ball...This ball was really never for you... It is more for a bowler needing length after the lanes breakdown...

Post like yours are on here all the time... Bashing a new ball... Some are made up, and possible by a rival.... I do believe your post was honest.. I tried to point out to you that your problem with this ball was mainly due to the drilling...

Now I SELL these balls for a living, Mr 175, so I take bashing of a product serious..

Now you have clearly shown that you make purchases without knowing wtf you are doing.....175 or 195, ask questions, make sure the ball is right for you.

But NO, you didn't do that... You bought this ball because some converted broom closet pro shop owner led you to believe that you would be the first KID on the block with this new release... And that made you feel like a man...

Pretty stupid reason to blow $180-$200 on a ball...

When making a comment, either Negative or Positive, it helps if you know what your talking about...

You don't and therefore started a thread saying how you were upset with this ball...

You should have said, you were upset with the advise you got from the not named pro shop owner/driller who sold you this ball...

Now take your kool aid and
--------------------
jls

Edited on 9/24/2009 12:47 PM

jls · « **Reply #30 on:** September 24, 2009, 12:56:58 PM »

quote:
If his PAP is in the 3-4" range, pin over middle finger would still be pretty strong. We don't know if his release is powerful enough or if he can repeat shots well enough to see the difference. No offense intended.

I guess the folks, at say, keyboard pounders like Ebonite International, wouldn't know what they're talking about when they say to use the "10 pin ball" with the normal release to find the PAP.

http://ebonite.com/resources/bowling_tip_detail/the_positive_axis_point

Relevant part:

quote:
It is easiest to locate the PAP from a lower flaring ball. I would suggest a spare ball. Clean off the ball with a towel, removing all of the oil rings. Find the part of the lane where there is oil (usually around the 4th arrow) and throw the ball down the lane with your normal release. When the ball comes back, there will be an oil ring. This is your ball track. Trace the ball track with a wax pencil to make it easier to locate. Place the ball in a ball cup (ashtray, etc.) with the ball track side of the ball down. The PAP will be the point that is equidistant from each point of the ball track. Use a tape measure from several points of the ball track until you find the spot that is the same distance from all points of the ball track. This point will be your PAP.

--------------------
Telling it like it is.

Nails, comprehension, get some...

What that link says is this, if you don't know your PAP, take a Clean low flaring ball and bowl with it etc etc etc...

That is different from saying, take the track off your plastic ball, which most bowlers use as a spare ball...

The spare ball track may or will be different then your strike ball track...

Thats why they say, clean it off first.... COMPREHENSION...

What the link says is to take a low flaring ball, throw it in oil with your strike shot release...

And that is totally different from you 10 pin release...

now nails, your not ready for prime time....

But since you know so much, why not run, don't walk, but run to your bank, mortgage that shack you live in, open a pro shop and specialize in finding the PAP for bowlers...

Most plastic balls TRACK UP very fast... Therefore they usually have a burned in track... Now since most of the time the ball has been used for 10 pins, This track will not reflect your true strike ball track...

That is why the link said clean the ball and throw it in oil... This way you will get a more accurate reading on your track flare...

Which is totally different from the burned in track you see on most plastic balls... used for 10 pin balls...

Am I going to fast for you... C a u s e I c a n t y p e s l o w e r...

But guess what... You can usually get a good read off another ball the bowler uses... I will take a read off the ball that the bowler uses, that is close
to matching the lane condition he wants to use the new ball on...

did I mention, your not ready for prime time

--------------------
jls

Edited on 9/24/2009 1:11 PM

Author Topic: Help with my new Reign (Read 7289 times)

Komodo

Help with my new Reign

pinspeaker

Re: Help with my new Reign

r534me

Re: Help with my new Reign

sammy

Re: Help with my new Reign

formosasproshop

Re: Help with my new Reign

tommygn

Re: Help with my new Reign

r534me

Re: Help with my new Reign

jls

Re: Help with my new Reign

formosasproshop

Re: Help with my new Reign

jls

Re: Help with my new Reign

tommygn

Re: Help with my new Reign

Nails

Re: Help with my new Reign

jls

Re: Help with my new Reign

Komodo

Re: Help with my new Reign

jls

Re: Help with my new Reign

jls

Re: Help with my new Reign