Post by: Komodo on September 21, 2009, 09:10:29 PM
Also on a side note. Is it normal when a pro shop drills a ball to use a scribe to mark up the ball? I mean I realize its just cosmetic and that a bowling ball ends up looking crappy after a couple weeks of bowling anyway, but isn't it normal to want your new ball to look new? Not only was my new Reign all scribed up from finger holes to thumb but the guy also did the same to my previously unmarked spare ball when he fixed the span.
Edited on 9/24/2009 4:07 PM
Post by: J_Mac on September 22, 2009, 06:08:41 AM
BUT
House shots are very capable of making different balls appear to play roughly the same line.
--
I'm really lucky that the shop that I frequent tries not to drill a ball for any bowler without first verifying speed vs. revs, axis tilt, axis rotation, and PAP by actually taking them onto the lanes. PAP is usually verified by oil rings and not track wear.
Without knowing what your PAP is, no one here can verify how strong of a layout it really is. Simply saying pin over middle finger isn't enough information.
Scribe lines are generally more accurate than the white pencil lines, but I never understood why most shops that use scribes are so heavy handed. It doesn't take that much pressure to leave a mark that will be gone after the first light resurface.
--------------------
If you were both cross-eyed and dyslexic, would you see okay?
Post by: Dan Belcher on September 22, 2009, 07:27:04 AM
Have your ball driller actually watch you throw both balls, explain to him what you actually want, and he'll probably end up redrilling the Reign I'm guessing to put a stronger layout on it. You may also go to another ball driller for a second opinion. Normally surface adjustments are the recommended thing to do when a ball isn't working well, but if you're having trouble getting a highly polished skid/snap pearl to do much when it finds friction outside, that tells me the drilling itself is just wrong and you're taking too much of the core's influence out of the ball.
Post by: the pooh on September 22, 2009, 07:37:11 AM
--------------------
the pooh
Post by: Nails on September 22, 2009, 07:49:48 AM
Some like scribe marks, some do not. The shops that use them do so because a sharp scribe line should be more accurate than a grease pencil. I like the marks, but I can easily understand that many do not. If they bother you, make sure to let the shop know. They can be removed with a resurface, but I wouldn't do it until the ball needs it. But maybe they can do a potential next ball without them.
--------------------
Telling it like it is.
Post by: rctc286 on September 22, 2009, 07:59:08 AM
--------------------
Roto Grip and Storm why throw anything else!
Post by: Dan Belcher on September 22, 2009, 08:00:59 AM
quote:The Reign has a weaker cover and higher RG core than the Second Dimension -- I'm not sure why you would have expected it to be stronger. It's going to be longer and react harder off the dry, but not hook more overall unless the Second Dimension is just burning up really badly.
I bought a used Reign and I was disappointed in mine. I was looking for a stronger reaction the my dimesion 2 which moves alot. (I Love that Ball). The reign looks to me like a med light kinda reminds me of T Road Pearl more of a arc reaction. Not what I was looking for. My Dimension 2 cover most of my needs.
--------------------
Roto Grip and Storm why throw anything else!
Post by: rctc286 on September 22, 2009, 08:07:32 AM
--------------------
Roto Grip and Storm why throw anything else!
Post by: tommygn on September 22, 2009, 08:36:35 AM
Please do not go to another pro shop UNTIL YOU HAVE SPOKEN with the pro shop that drilled your ball. A second opinion is very useful, only when you have been dismissed by your current pro shop, or just do not have a good relationship. I have had customers come in to my pro shop, be unhappy with the results, only for them to go someplace else and have the new shop steal my business, when all that was needed was a surface change or balance hole. Talk to your pro shop, let him or her see you roll the ball, discuss with them first, and then seek a second opinion if you are not satisfied.
Other than that, much of what other people posted is very much correct in that house conditions will steer the ball to the pocket, and not allow you to see the differences in the two balls as you may on a PBA pattern.
--------------------
Tommy Gollick
Storm Regional/Pro Shop staff
Red Crown Pro Shop Harrisburg, PA
stormbowling.com
Post by: r534me on September 22, 2009, 11:24:57 AM
quote:
I bought a used Reign and I was disappointed in mine. I was looking for a stronger reaction the my dimesion 2 which moves alot. (I Love that Ball). The reign looks to me like a med light kinda reminds me of T Road Pearl more of a arc reaction. Not what I was looking for. My Dimension 2 cover most of my needs.
--------------------
Roto Grip and Storm why throw anything else!
The t-road pearl does not arc unless you have it drilled that way. Mine is over the bridge and snaps hard. The 2D is more of an arcing ball. My 2D hooks at the midlane and doesn't snap on the backend. I rarely find enough oil in house conditions to use the 2D. My TF is strong enough even drilled very weak with the pin over middle finger and mb next to the thumb.
Post by: rctc286 on September 22, 2009, 12:01:17 PM
--------------------
Roto Grip and Storm why throw anything else!
Post by: dougb on September 22, 2009, 01:05:37 PM
Like you, I am a lower revs player and my T-Road Pearl is drilled differently (pin to the right of ring finger, cg in palm). This gives me length, a smooth arc, and a powerful move to the pocket on the backend. When the lanes break down I can move left and throw the ball out there with confidence that it will come back.
Post by: duvallite on September 22, 2009, 02:43:46 PM
Post by: jls on September 22, 2009, 04:17:10 PM
BTW the ball was drilled, I seriously doubt you PAP was ever considered...
It sounds like you got the basic 101 drilling.. Pin above the fingers...And more above the middle finger... R U KIDDING ME...
To me it sounds like you needed a more aggressive drilling... Like a 4 by 4 with a 2 - 2 1/2 " pin buffer...MB strong...
So don't knock the ball, Knock the drilling....
Cause the drilling you got tends to make the ball go long with a smoother backend...
You got this ball drilled in a converted broom closet, right??? Open 5-8...
--------------------
jls
Edited on 9/22/2009 4:20 PM
Post by: Juggernaut on September 22, 2009, 04:22:01 PM
quote:
Never use a spare ball to get your PAP...
Why not? Assuming you use the same release, the pap should be the same, shouldn't it?
--------------------
Good transactions list in my profile
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein
Post by: pinspeaker on September 22, 2009, 04:46:14 PM
quote:quote:
Never use a spare ball to get your PAP...
Why not? Assuming you use the same release, the pap should be the same, shouldn't it?
I think the assumption here is that hardly anyone throws their "spare ball" at the spares the same way they thrown their strike shots. Unless someone is using a plastic ball on their first shot in league, I wouldn't use it to find anyone's PAP either. JMHO
Post by: r534me on September 22, 2009, 06:55:12 PM
quote:quote:quote:quote:
Never use a spare ball to get your PAP...
Why not? Assuming you use the same release, the pap should be the same, shouldn't it?
I think the assumption here is that hardly anyone throws their "spare ball" at the spares the same way they thrown their strike shots. Unless someone is using a plastic ball on their first shot in league, I wouldn't use it to find anyone's PAP either. JMHO
Maybe, the person should use his regular release with a plastic ball to measure the pap unless he didn't have one. Ideally, the driller would have used the spare ball after it's been tossed on the lanes and not measuring just the track.
http://www.bowlspot.com/page/pap
Post by: sammy on September 22, 2009, 09:11:51 PM
quote:
Low flaring balls (plastic) are how you find PaPs... I don't get that reasoning jls, enlighten me?
Komodo also said he has a 175 avg, so he would have an erratic release I'm sure ?
Komodo, give the ball a chance.. Does the ball hook when it comes off the oil? Is it more flippy than the other ball? Does it seem to skid too far before reading the dry? How far do they oil the lanes? The house you have a current avg in, is it the only house you bowl in? You could try it in other centers and let us know if the reaction is the same
--------------------
A former member of the 20/20 Club 'cause sciatica sucks
I have seen my pap vary by up to 1/2" depending on what ball I use. I don't try to hook at a 10 pin, therefore my release is different. If I'm drilling an oil ball, I will use my pap of another oil ball. If I'm drilling up a go long polished ball, I will do the same, take he pap of a ball for that same condition.. Now I know some people will say their pap is always the same.. I don't believe that. And I know for sure that on my balls, they aren't. If I drill up a Freeze for a 3rd game shot to tame down the backend, I might not hit it the same as I would a 715T drilled aggressive for a game 1 ball. Therefore my pap will vary slightly... The pap was not this bowlers problem. It looks like he wanted something aggressive. The pin over the middle finger is probably way to tame for this bowler. He might want to plug the ball and have it drilled stronger. I agree with that 4 by 4 drilling with a 2" pin buffer. So no matter what ball he had his pap taken from, what did it really matter. The drilling he got was way to weak for him.
Post by: formosasproshop on September 22, 2009, 10:12:14 PM
Assuming the releaase is the same is the correct phrasing. I know PERSONALLY my spare ball track is very tight to the fingers (high roller), end to end. However my NORMAL release is a good 1/2" to 3/4" off the fingers, more of a medium track. So my PAP on my spare ball is way different. When I grab a PAP in our shop its ALWAYS from fresh thrown ball with FRESH oil tracks. We have bowler toss ball a couple times, mark the track, Then have him toss it a few more times to verify the track. All BEFORE even attempting to get the PAP.
I've seen a lot of shop CLAIM to be drilling a ball specifically for YOU!! But in reality they are using generic layouts and never actually taking your PAP into account.
As for the layout that you describe with the pin being above middle finger. My GUESS is that you were given a 5" pin with a generic 4x2 PAP (or is it 4X1? haven't used generic PAPs in years, lol). This would put the pin just above the middle finger.
Unfortunatly it sounds like you got a bum deal on your layout. Where is the CG of the ball? I am going to guess its probably near grip center or maybe a bit past? Wondering if you were given something like a 5x4 layout. Which is not a bad layout playing the area you want, IF the bowlers TRUE PAP if used.
PERSONALLY I WOULD TAKE IT BACK INTO THE SHOP AND ASK FOR SPECIFICS. WHAT WAS THE EXACT LAYOUT USED? WHAT WAS YOUR PAP? TRY AND RESOLVE THE ISSUE BEFORE GOING SOMEWHERE NEW.
As someone said before, we have lost customers who have not brought grievences back to our attention. One that comes to mind bought a Fury last year. Drilled it for him (150 ave. bowler too) using his specs giving him what he wanted. Midseason he changes way he throws and the ball stops working. Instead of coming to use to have it checked and possibly corrected he takes it to nearest OTHER pro shop (an hr away). What he got in return was a plugged ball with a basic 45 degree drilling. No PAP used nothing. Now ball is useless and his average has dropped to 130.
--------------------
In Bag (15lbs):
Nomad Pearl (55x5x35)
LevRG Response (45x4.5x45)
Rogue Cell (60x4.5x40)
PACKERS VIZ-A-BALL!!
Post by: tommygn on September 23, 2009, 08:38:51 AM
--------------------
Tommy Gollick
Storm Regional/Pro Shop staff
Red Crown Pro Shop Harrisburg, PA
stormbowling.com
Post by: r534me on September 23, 2009, 09:12:02 AM
quote:
Actually, because of todays high performance cores and covers, the best way to find your PAP IS with a pancake weight block, harder shelled ball. The one thing that is being missed, is yes, you use your strike ball release to get the oil ring. Obviously, if you are flattening out your shot, you have now altered your normal release. High performance balls want to pull away form the PAP and find its way to it's preferred spin axis. Because of this, you may find variations of your PAP in different balls. Your balls should be drilled from this PAP, so as to get the true reaction that you are looking for out of the chosen drilling for the ball. Using that consistent PAP will also allow you to alter your release when playing different angles, and the bowling balls responding appropriately with said release changes.
--------------------
Tommy Gollick
Storm Regional/Pro Shop staff
Red Crown Pro Shop Harrisburg, PA
stormbowling.com
You stated it best. I used my white dot with my strike release playing the oil to get my Pap. Let's hope people arne't actually trying to get a strike playing the dry instead!
Post by: jls on September 23, 2009, 09:24:38 AM
quote:
Low flaring balls (plastic) are how you find PaPs... I don't get that reasoning jls, enlighten me?
Komodo also said he has a 175 avg, so he would have an erratic release I'm sure ?
Komodo, give the ball a chance.. Does the ball hook when it comes off the oil? Is it more flippy than the other ball? Does it seem to skid too far before reading the dry? How far do they oil the lanes? The house you have a current avg in, is it the only house you bowl in? You could try it in other centers and let us know if the reaction is the same
--------------------
A former member of the 20/20 Club 'cause sciatica sucks
Ok sir, first lets address the topic at hand... Poor performance of this new ball... Now as I see it, this person wanted something stronger, so he could 'open up the lane"...
I don't believe drilling the ball with the pin over the MF would help this bowler, nor is it what he wanted or needed...
Now what happened here is this, This so called VIP pro shop got a new release in as per the program, but instead of drilling it for himself or a high average bowler he may know or have as a customer at a reduced price... He sold it to this guy probably at full price...
Now as I see it, the reason to get the new releases into a shop early, is to create interest.... This is usually done by having a highend bowler use the ball. thus others will see him scoring and ask, "what ball was that, or is that the new Storm release, etc etc etc...
By selling this ball early, before the actual release date to this guy, all the pro shop did was put the ball with a weak drilling in the hands of a 175 avg. bowler, who died with the ball...
And now, several days before the release date, he is writing a poor review on the ball, base on what it did or did not do for him...
Therefore any interest in this ball by some of the locals would tend to be negative... If they saw him bowling poorly with it...
"hey I saw that new Storm Release, and boy it sucked, guy couldn't get it to the pocket" This is not good....
And with that drilling, which is a good long smooth backend type of drilling, it did not match up to this bowler, at "tall"...
This a bad review... on a really good ball... why, because some converted broom closet storm VIP pro shop sold the ball for a fast profit... Instead of doing what most good pro shops would do... Which is, either drill it up for themselves or sell it at a reduced price to a good high average bowler, with a good drilling on it...
Thus having a better chance to get some good positive feedback and create good interest in this new release...
The first review I saw of this new ball was this one,,, Now I can see why it was a bad review... But will joe blow average customer see it that way, or will he thing this ball is a dud.....
This is not good.
Now as for the pap...
In this case it wouldn't matter if the big guy in the sky took the pap...
A accurate pap on a poorly laid out ball, will usually mean, poor results..
Now if you or anyone wish to believe that taking the pap on a 10 pin ball, { we don't call them plastic, we call them 10 pin balls ] is the most accurate, then so be it.....
--------------------
jls
Edited on 9/23/2009 4:25 PM
Post by: formosasproshop on September 23, 2009, 10:34:24 AM
We belong to the Storm VIP program in our shop and I would say 90% of the balls are punched up for myself. Gives us a good read on what the new balls look like. After tossing them for a few weeks, IF they haven't managed to make it to my perminent bag they are then resold at a pretty nice discount to an average league bowler looking for a "new" ball but doesn't want to pay the cost for some of the top end stuff. They get a ball with minimum games on it (plugged and redrilled for them of course) and we usually come close to breaking even on the ball.
As for your PAP rave, you hit the nail on the head.
P.S. One good bowling niece you got there. My 11 year old son has 3 200+ games already this year with an 11lbs USED Smash Time, LOL!!! The lord above knows I would never listen to him about drilling!! (Oh and he is only using the 11lbs Smash Time he steps up to 12lbs equiptment, then he gets some real stuff)
SIDENOTE FOR JLS - Is the Freeze as good as I have heard at 12lbs? We have 4 Freezes on BACKORDER hoping to get them in this week.
--------------------
In Bag (15lbs):
Nomad Pearl (55x4.5x35)
LevRG Response (45x4.5x45)
Rogue Cell (60x4.5x40)
PACKERS VIZ-A-BALL!!
Post by: jls on September 23, 2009, 10:47:18 AM
quote:
JLS someone piss you your wheeties this morning, lol. But guess what I AGREE WITH YOU!!
We belong to the Storm VIP program in our shop and I would say 90% of the balls are punched up for myself. Gives us a good read on what the new balls look like. After tossing them for a few weeks, IF they haven't managed to make it to my perminent bag they are then resold at a pretty nice discount to an average league bowler looking for a "new" ball but doesn't want to pay the cost for some of the top end stuff. They get a ball with minimum games on it (plugged and redrilled for them of course) and we usually come close to breaking even on the ball.
As for your PAP rave, you hit the nail on the head.
P.S. One good bowling niece you got there. My 11 year old son has 3 200+ games already this year with an 11lbs USED Smash Time, LOL!!! The lord above knows I would never listen to him about drilling!! (Oh and he is only using the 11lbs Smash Time he steps up to 12lbs equiptment, then he gets some real stuff)
SIDENOTE FOR JLS - Is the Freeze as good as I have heard at 12lbs? We have 4 Freezes on BACKORDER hoping to get them in this week.
--------------------
In Bag (15lbs):
Nomad Pearl (55x4.5x35)
LevRG Response (45x4.5x45)
Rogue Cell (60x4.5x40)
PACKERS VIZ-A-BALL!!
The Freeze just may be the best ball for the price on the market...Around HERE you will see them in MANY many high average bowlers hands... As well as average bowlers..All three colors are doing well...Even in 12lbs...
Their BRAND NEW BALL GOT SLAMMED...........
I saw that and ADDRESSED IT...
I clearly posted why I felt this bowler did not like the results from his BRAND NEW REIGN...
You would think someone from STORM would have notice the topic at hand and Addressed it...A very weak drilling on a ball for a weak handed bowler....
Actually someone did and I missed it....
In golf, they say, "a bad putt is better then a bad chip"...
Which means, if you can, putt it....
In bowling, A good layout even without a known PAP is better then a BAD layout with a good PAP.....
As for the p in the cereal... No, I'm like this all the time...
Have a good day
--------------------
jls
Edited on 9/23/2009 4:28 PM
Post by: tommygn on September 23, 2009, 02:10:14 PM
--------------------
Tommy Gollick
Storm Regional/Pro Shop staff
Red Crown Pro Shop Harrisburg, PA
stormbowling.com
Post by: Nails on September 23, 2009, 02:40:25 PM
I guess the folks, at say, keyboard pounders like Ebonite International, wouldn't know what they're talking about when they say to use the "10 pin ball" with the normal release to find the PAP.
http://ebonite.com/resources/bowling_tip_detail/the_positive_axis_point
Relevant part:
quote:
It is easiest to locate the PAP from a lower flaring ball. I would suggest a spare ball. Clean off the ball with a towel, removing all of the oil rings. Find the part of the lane where there is oil (usually around the 4th arrow) and throw the ball down the lane with your normal release. When the ball comes back, there will be an oil ring. This is your ball track. Trace the ball track with a wax pencil to make it easier to locate. Place the ball in a ball cup (ashtray, etc.) with the ball track side of the ball down. The PAP will be the point that is equidistant from each point of the ball track. Use a tape measure from several points of the ball track until you find the spot that is the same distance from all points of the ball track. This point will be your PAP.
--------------------
Telling it like it is.
Post by: jls on September 23, 2009, 03:39:03 PM
quote:
I guess you missed the earlier post about surface and possibly needing a balance hole. Funny I wasn't there to know why the driller drilled the ball the way he did, or have seen the bowler bowl, that is why I recommended for Komodo to go talk to his pro shop. It seems as though the poster and the pro shop operator are the only two that were.
--------------------
Tommy Gollick
Storm Regional/Pro Shop staff
Red Crown Pro Shop Harrisburg, PA
stormbowling.com
You're are right, I did see that. I just didn't realize you wrote it...
Sorry about that..
But the whole point was this ball was drilled very weak for this type of bowler, and that was the topic at hand... However many post were about the PAP.
So once again, sorry about missing your earlier post...
--------------------
jls
Post by: Komodo on September 24, 2009, 09:12:34 AM
Would like to address something however. This post was never meant to be some sort of official ball review. I bought a new ball and was disappointed after throwing it and hoped to get some input from bowlers of a higher skill level and of greater knowledge, which for the most part I did. I made it perfectly clear that I was not a "bowler" as stated by another poster. I was completely honest about my ability, lack of bowling experience, and style (low revs). I want to apologize to anyone offended, in particular jls, if my post soured the taste of his Kool Aid. I was unaware that only postive comments should be posted, or that only "elite" level bowlers were allowed to post. It pains me that in this economic climate I may have so carelessly brought upon the financial ruin of what I'm sure is a great company, making a great product.
Post by: jls on September 24, 2009, 12:23:52 PM
quote:
Thanks for the advise all. I'm having the ball redrilled and going to give it another try.
Would like to address something however. This post was never meant to be some sort of official ball review. I bought a new ball and was disappointed after throwing it and hoped to get some input from bowlers of a higher skill level and of greater knowledge, which for the most part I did. I made it perfectly clear that I was not a "bowler" as stated by another poster. I was completely honest about my ability, lack of bowling experience, and style (low revs). I want to apologize to anyone offended, in particular jls, if my post soured the taste of his Kool Aid. I was unaware that only postive comments should be posted, or that only "elite" level bowlers were allowed to post. It pains me that in this economic climate I may have so carelessly brought upon the financial ruin of what I'm sure is a great company, making a great product.
Maybe you should have said your were upset with the drilling or the driller, and not the ball...This ball was really never for you... It is more for a bowler needing length after the lanes breakdown...
Post like yours are on here all the time... Bashing a new ball... Some are made up, and possible by a rival.... I do believe your post was honest.. I tried to point out to you that your problem with this ball was mainly due to the drilling...
Now I SELL these balls for a living, Mr 175, so I take bashing of a product serious..
Now you have clearly shown that you make purchases without knowing wtf you are doing.....175 or 195, ask questions, make sure the ball is right for you.
But NO, you didn't do that... You bought this ball because some converted broom closet pro shop owner led you to believe that you would be the first KID on the block with this new release... And that made you feel like a man...
Pretty stupid reason to blow $180-$200 on a ball...
When making a comment, either Negative or Positive, it helps if you know what your talking about...
You don't and therefore started a thread saying how you were upset with this ball...
You should have said, you were upset with the advise you got from the not named pro shop owner/driller who sold you this ball...
Now take your kool aid and
--------------------
jls
Edited on 9/24/2009 12:47 PM
Post by: jls on September 24, 2009, 12:56:58 PM
quote:
If his PAP is in the 3-4" range, pin over middle finger would still be pretty strong. We don't know if his release is powerful enough or if he can repeat shots well enough to see the difference. No offense intended.
I guess the folks, at say, keyboard pounders like Ebonite International, wouldn't know what they're talking about when they say to use the "10 pin ball" with the normal release to find the PAP.
http://ebonite.com/resources/bowling_tip_detail/the_positive_axis_point
Relevant part:quote:
It is easiest to locate the PAP from a lower flaring ball. I would suggest a spare ball. Clean off the ball with a towel, removing all of the oil rings. Find the part of the lane where there is oil (usually around the 4th arrow) and throw the ball down the lane with your normal release. When the ball comes back, there will be an oil ring. This is your ball track. Trace the ball track with a wax pencil to make it easier to locate. Place the ball in a ball cup (ashtray, etc.) with the ball track side of the ball down. The PAP will be the point that is equidistant from each point of the ball track. Use a tape measure from several points of the ball track until you find the spot that is the same distance from all points of the ball track. This point will be your PAP.
--------------------
Telling it like it is.
Nails, comprehension, get some...
What that link says is this, if you don't know your PAP, take a Clean low flaring ball and bowl with it etc etc etc...
That is different from saying, take the track off your plastic ball, which most bowlers use as a spare ball...
The spare ball track may or will be different then your strike ball track...
Thats why they say, clean it off first.... COMPREHENSION...
What the link says is to take a low flaring ball, throw it in oil with your strike shot release...
And that is totally different from you 10 pin release...
now nails, your not ready for prime time....
But since you know so much, why not run, don't walk, but run to your bank, mortgage that shack you live in, open a pro shop and specialize in finding the PAP for bowlers...
Most plastic balls TRACK UP very fast... Therefore they usually have a burned in track... Now since most of the time the ball has been used for 10 pins, This track will not reflect your true strike ball track...
That is why the link said clean the ball and throw it in oil... This way you will get a more accurate reading on your track flare...
Which is totally different from the burned in track you see on most plastic balls... used for 10 pin balls...
Am I going to fast for you... C a u s e I c a n t y p e s l o w e r...
But guess what... You can usually get a good read off another ball the bowler uses... I will take a read off the ball that the bowler uses, that is close
to matching the lane condition he wants to use the new ball on...
did I mention, your not ready for prime time
--------------------
jls
Edited on 9/24/2009 1:11 PM
Post by: Badger856 on September 24, 2009, 12:58:07 PM
Post by: jls on September 24, 2009, 01:57:30 PM
quote:
To jls!
Please give this guy a break. He´s not bashing anything, he only asks for some help on the reaction he gets on the ball. Isn´t what´s this place is all about???
I think you are the moron!!! (And escuse me if my spelling is wrong)
I deal with bowler's 24-7, Very very few 175 bowlers know anything about their PAP, nor do they usually have a spare ball... And whats up with "something strong off the breakpoint" R U kidding me... And then he goes on to say his a new bowler...
I don't think so Tim... It sounds more and more like he's from another company, and he is posting garbage about this new ball...
Why didn't his thread say, Upset with poor drilling... cause that is pretty much what it sounds like.. But no, he clearly decides to put the name of the ball in his title, making it look like the ball is a dud...
Why didn't he say, Joe's pro shop screwed the drilling up? No, he's upset with the Reign... That leads people to think the ball may be a dud...
This goes on often on this site... B.S. reviews knocking a new release...
"open up the lane" wtf, again, this is not the type of lingo one hears from 175 average new bowlers....
"Scribe marks" again R U KIdding me....
I think he is a fraud...
Now, you want to know what I think of you....
Your a typical keyboard pounder surfing the net while at work...
Your a dime a dozen...
now
are we clear
--------------------
jls
Edited on 9/24/2009 1:59 PM
Post by: Komodo on September 24, 2009, 02:12:43 PM
This is idiotic and I will not keep this thread alive with anymore responses. Once again I genuinely appreciate the advise given.
Post by: n00dlejester on September 24, 2009, 02:31:55 PM
This Komodo dude was looking for a new ball. He's obviously a bowler who's INTERESTED in bowling, and has done his HW. He wanted what he thought was the right choice. In the end, his choice didn't work as well as he thought it would, and was looking FOR ADVICE. He is a NEWER BOWLER looking for ADVICE. That's where we come in, and offer him our opinions on what could have gone wrong in his choice.
Saying a newer bowler should know wtf he's talking about is an oxymoron. People aren't BORN with inherent bowling knowledge, they need guidance.
I wouldn't be surprised if reactions like these ward off newer bowlers who want to give our sport a chance. Instead of being a prick and saying you're an idiot sabotaging a company, offer a smile and give him the help he needs. You know, good customer service skills. Something you should know ALL about if you own a pro shop, not a converted broom closet.
/rant
--------------------
Proud Supporter of Rob Stone
Obviously, you aren't a golfer.
Some stayed in the foothills, some washed logs like teeth.
Post by: rvmark on September 24, 2009, 02:32:09 PM
Komodo,
I have been fortunate enough to have two good proshops in the area I have been in who will work with me on my ball purchases and layouts. I have also gotten some valuable information from members on this site. Reading your post I would suggest that if you title it something as Help with ????(whatever ball) it would keep the over zealous individuals off your back.
Good luck on the redrill with your ball. Hopefully you will sort out the advice that was given and realize that their are some on here who will help and not try to take your head off.
Mark
Post by: Badger856 on September 24, 2009, 02:40:34 PM
Post by: jls on September 24, 2009, 03:41:02 PM
quote:
jls...I was questioning that maybe you knew if the OP was a fake poster.
Badger, I really don't, but the more I read that post, the more full of B.S. it is...
Some of his lingo is not what you would exoect to hear from a new 175 avergae bowler..
I have been drilling balls for, let me think, over 3 weeks now, and I have never had a 175 bowler talk like that... Or say, take my pap off my plastic spare ball...Mostb 175 bowlers Don't have a spare ball....
The only thing this guy left out was...
"It clears the heads, turns the corner, hits like a truck and kicks out the 10 pin"....
Bag, sorry about the confusion....
--------------------
jls
Post by: jls on September 24, 2009, 03:59:42 PM
quote:
Damn JLS, chill out dude.
This Komodo dude was looking for a new ball. He's obviously a bowler who's INTERESTED in bowling, and has done his HW. He wanted what he thought was the right choice. In the end, his choice didn't work as well as he thought it would, and was looking FOR ADVICE. He is a NEWER BOWLER looking for ADVICE. That's where we come in, and offer him our opinions on what could have gone wrong in his choice.
Saying a newer bowler should know wtf he's talking about is an oxymoron. People aren't BORN with inherent bowling knowledge, they need guidance.
I wouldn't be surprised if reactions like these ward off newer bowlers who want to give our sport a chance. Instead of being a prick and saying you're an idiot sabotaging a company, offer a smile and give him the help he needs. You know, good customer service skills. Something you should know ALL about if you own a pro shop, not a converted broom closet.
/rant
--------------------
Proud Supporter of Rob Stone
Obviously, you aren't a golfer.
Some stayed in the foothills, some washed logs like teeth.
That is what I did in an earlier reply...Go back and read it...
Now today with the internet, many bowlers get info on new balls off the net...
I see this daily... In his case, he said he read or heard about this new ball...
And decided it was for him....
That clearly shows that him did indeed surf the net and got some info on this ball...
The problem was, he like so many others did not fully understand what this ball is for..
In my first reply I told him that it sounded like a serious drilling issue...
Pin above the MF for a 175 weak handed bowler who wants to open up the lanes in the first game.... R U Kidding me....
His problem here is he got a very poor drilling on a ball that does not match what he wanted in the first place...
The pap thing is not the issue....
I clearly said don't take your pap off a spare ball...
That means in english, a ball you use for spare shooting...
That is different from taking a CLEAN hard low flare ball and playing in the oil. And throwing it with your strike shot...
Your spare ball will not have your strike shot flare on it...
Some people who think they know it all, jump on a link which said take a low flare ball, clean it, throw it with your strike shot in oil...
This is not the same thing as taking your pap from an old used spare ball that has been used for spare shooting, thus called a spare ball or 10 pin ball...
They read about big hook and backend bla bla and they think it's a game one oil monster...
Now I have seen so much bashing of new product on this site... It's a game played here all the time....
Don't pretend you have never seen it...
Now I don't know if he is for real or not, I really don't care...
But I do know the Reign is a good new release...
When put in the hands of a bowler who knows what condition the ball is for...
I think this person should delete this post or at least re name it...
So it doesn't sound like he's upset with the performance of the Reign. When it is clear to anyone with bowling knowledge, that this ball was poorly drilled for him...
--------------------
jls
Post by: jls on September 24, 2009, 04:14:17 PM
quote:
Never use a spare ball to get your PAP...
BTW the ball was drilled, I seriously doubt you PAP was ever considered...
It sounds like you got the basic 101 drilling.. Pin above the fingers...And more above the middle finger... R U KIDDING ME...
To me it sounds like you needed a more aggressive drilling... Like a 4 by 4 with a 2 - 2 1/2 " pin buffer...MB strong...
So don't knock the ball, Knock the drilling....
Cause the drilling you got tends to make the ball go long with a smoother backend...
You got this ball drilled in a converted broom closet, right??? Open 5-8...
--------------------
jls
Edited on 9/22/2009 4:20 PM
This was my first reply.....
I told him I felt that the ball was laid out poorly for him...
And I said don't use your spare ball, bla bla.
Then a bunch of know it alls come on and started in about taking the track off a plastic or hard shell low flaring ball...Because they read that somewhere...
But did not have the brains to understand what that meant... Because they are keyboard pounders...
That was not the issue... a poor drilling was the issue...
Re name the thread and be a man and stop blaming the Reign because you got a terrible drill job...
Pin above the MF, 175 weak handed bowler... WTF, did your driller mistake you for Tommy Jones......
--------------------
jls
Edited on 9/24/2009 5:18 PM
Post by: rvmark on September 24, 2009, 04:15:55 PM
quote:
Damn JLS, chill out dude.
This Komodo dude was looking for a new ball. He's obviously a bowler who's INTERESTED in bowling, and has done his HW. He wanted what he thought was the right choice. In the end, his choice didn't work as well as he thought it would, and was looking FOR ADVICE. He is a NEWER BOWLER looking for ADVICE. That's where we come in, and offer him our opinions on what could have gone wrong in his choice.
Saying a newer bowler should know wtf he's talking about is an oxymoron. People aren't BORN with inherent bowling knowledge, they need guidance.
I wouldn't be surprised if reactions like these ward off newer bowlers who want to give our sport a chance. Instead of being a prick and saying you're an idiot sabotaging a company, offer a smile and give him the help he needs. You know, good customer service skills. Something you should know ALL about if you own a pro shop, not a converted broom closet.
/rant
--------------------
Proud Supporter of Rob Stone
Obviously, you aren't a golfer.
Some stayed in the foothills, some washed logs like teeth.
Steve,
Hopefully they don't give up the sport, but they may not want to come back on here for the inquisition treatment.
Mark
Post by: Komodo on September 24, 2009, 04:16:32 PM
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=243776&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5
Not sure if that link will work. It's in the Misc catagory and titled "Bowling vids for Newbies. Can't think of anymore to say on the subject.
Post by: jls on September 24, 2009, 04:17:42 PM
Help, instead of upset or dissatisfied...with my Reign
Good, very good, glad to see you finally do that......
--------------------
jls
Post by: rvmark on September 24, 2009, 04:25:36 PM
quote:
Well now, I see he has re named the thread....
Help, instead of upset or dissatisfied...with my Reign
Good, very good, glad to see you finally do that......
--------------------
jls
jls couldn't you have just stated that changing the the thread name earlier...
Again good luck and good bowling Komodo!
Mark
Post by: Nails on September 24, 2009, 04:26:47 PM
Unless you drastically change your release for your spares, your PAP is not going to change much, is that clear? Most people, that would be the less than elite 210-200 average bowler, switches to a spare ball so they don't have to make a big change to their release.
Even changing from a classic tweener strike release to a lower rev flatter release won't change your PAP by more than 1/2" or so, hardly important to the average bowler. It certainly wouldn't turn a perfect ball into a turd. Anyone not named Norm Duke or Walter Ray Williams Jr. that thinks his PAP being off by 1/2" needs to have his head examined, is that clear?
I'll let you get back to your coffee now. Maybe you're lucky and your mom made you a mocha.
--------------------
Telling it like it is.
Post by: Nails on September 24, 2009, 04:31:05 PM
--------------------
Telling it like it is.
Post by: jls on September 24, 2009, 04:54:52 PM
quote:
Lookie here junior, just because you sit around in your underwear drinking coffee all day instead of selling and properly mapping out large number of balls, getting wound up about minutia doesn't mean the world is going to end.
Unless you drastically change your release for your spares, your PAP is not going to change much, is that clear? Most people, that would be the less than elite 210-200 average bowler, switches to a spare ball so they don't have to make a big change to their release.
Even changing from a classic tweener strike release to a lower rev flatter release won't change your PAP by more than 1/2" or so, hardly important to the average bowler. It certainly wouldn't turn a perfect ball into a turd. Anyone not named Norm Duke or Walter Ray Williams Jr. that thinks his PAP being off by 1/2" needs to have his head examined, is that clear?
I'll let you get back to your coffee now. Maybe you're lucky and your mom made you a mocha.
--------------------
Telling it like it is.
First toe nail, did you read what some other real pro shops had to say about that....They felt indeed that it would be different...
Second nail boy, are you a pro shop??? Have you ever taken 3 or 4 balls from a bowler and checked them???? From their oil ball to their spare ball???
I have many times toe hang nail... and it varies...
Third, probably not hang nail, because your a dime a dozen keyboard pounder, who comes on this site daily and pretends he knows something...
Fourth, you don't know crap...
Fifth, Open a pro shop...Put you money where you big fat mouth is...
Sixth, hang nail, now get lost, you bore me, back to Lane One with you...
Seventh, Dip nail, I never said the pap was the issue here, learn how to read boy, I said it was a poor drilling....
Eight, Did I mention, you bore me...
Most bowlers will bring in one of the regular strike balls when the decide to buy a new ball... Seldom have I seen a bowler bring in his spare ball to have the PAP taken from it...
Now it may very well be true, that by taking a clean hard shell low flaring ball and using it on oil with your strike shot release, may be a very accurate way to find your pap...
But really here Nails, have you ever done that??? Have most bowlers ever done that....
What I clearly said nails, was don't use the pap off your old plastic or spare ball, that you have been using for spare shooting...or 10 pins...
There is a differnce...
Once you get your head out of your yuppie butt, you might understand it...
Untill then, you are nothing more then another dime a dozen keyboard pounder pretending to be bowling expert...
did I mention, you bore me....
Now isn't it time for you to make your way over to Lane One and help out Steven....
--------------------
jls
Edited on 9/24/2009 5:04 PM
Edited on 9/24/2009 5:06 PM
Post by: snowspike1 on September 24, 2009, 06:27:23 PM
quote:
does jls know something we don't?
He seems to think he does.... Just ask him he'll tell ya.
Another selfabsorbed well spoken voice.....
If he is on staff with any ball company or has ANY certification for coatching /or drilling IMHO they should be pulled. (insert your self centerd drivel here)..
People use this site to solicate advice from others that have had or in the "know" and don't desrve to be trashed.
You seem to know everything so whats the secert to life/ what planet (other than earth) has life on it/ How long before you grow up and get a life?
Post by: jls on September 24, 2009, 06:50:13 PM
quote:quote:
does jls know something we don't?
He seems to think he does.... Just ask him he'll tell ya.
Another selfabsorbed well spoken voice.....
If he is on staff with any ball company or has ANY certification for coatching /or drilling IMHO they should be pulled. (insert your self centerd drivel here)..
People use this site to solicate advice from others that have had or in the "know" and don't desrve to be trashed.
You seem to know everything so whats the secert to life/ what planet (other than earth) has life on it/ How long before you grow up and get a life?
When you learn how to read boy, you will see there was no bashing in my first reply towards him...Any so called bashing came later after some people questioned the PAP thing....
I clearly pointed out, you poor excuse for a human, that it is not accurate to take a PAP off a spare ball... Which differs from using a hard shell low flaring ball that is clean in oil to find your PAP...
But your too stupid to understand that.. So you come on with your two bit attack against me... Like I care what pond scum thinks or says....
You probably buy your balls on Ebay or at K-Mart...
You probably came on after this person CHANGED THE NAME OF HIS THREAD...
Before he was bashing a new Storm ball called the Reign...
He was not happy with the ball and posted it that way in his title....
Yet his thread clearly showed to anyone with a brain, that he had a very poor drilling put on said ball... Which more then likely caused the poor reaction he got.... You poor excuse for a human...
I Believe the original title was " dissatisfied with my new Reign"
My first reply to him clearly expalin that, you poor excuse for a human....
Now isn't it your bed time.... Make sure you go pee pee on the toy toy, cause your mommy does not like those middle of the nite accidents...
And do yourself and mankind a favor... Wash your hands after you pee on them...
now
are we clear
GLAD TO SEE HE FIRST CHANGED THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD...
And glad to see him lock it...
"house hack" "Scribe lines" "Strong off the break" "open up the lanes" "pap off my spare ball"
You guys crack me up with you bowling lingo...You all been standing next to the big boys and listening to what they say...
Now do what you do best in bowling.... "waitress, another round"
--------------------
jls
Edited on 9/25/2009 8:54 AM
Edited on 9/25/2009 9:01 AM
Post by: snowspike1 on September 25, 2009, 12:06:33 AM