Post by: nmbr1sun99 on January 31, 2010, 06:12:09 AM
Any suggestions before I contact Storm?
I purchased the ball for use on heavy oil PBA pattern and tournament patterns. Now is the time I need this ball. I can't afford to wait for a replacement.
Post by: Sir Bowl-A-Lot on January 31, 2010, 02:16:09 PM
Post by: nmbr1sun99 on January 31, 2010, 02:34:33 PM
Post by: Panda3 on January 31, 2010, 04:02:08 PM
Post by: Motogp69 on January 31, 2010, 05:57:30 PM
At least for me.
--------------------
Videos at:
http://youtube.com/user/Gsnap21
"The framers of our Constitution believed that if the people were to be sovereign and belong to different religions at the same time then our official religion would have to be no religion at all. It was a bold experiment then as it is now. It wasn't meant to make us comfortable, it was meant to make us free."
Post by: Pozz on January 31, 2010, 06:15:47 PM
Post by: Raven829 on January 31, 2010, 06:30:30 PM
IMO, this cover/core combo is so strong that weaker layouts are going to be needed, even if bowling on longer/heavier patterns.
Don
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"You cannot change the stripes of a leopard."
~Emmitt Smith
Post by: lil League Coach on January 31, 2010, 06:52:42 PM
I have above average revs on a bowling ball with some medium - high speed. Last season I drilled up 2 virtuals. Ball 1- weak layout pin under (still throwing it to this day) Ball 2- 4x4 drilling and the ball never wanted to hook.
My suggestion is stay with pins 4.5 (at most) to 5.5 to your PAP.
--------------------
TJ TROUT
PBA EAST REGIONAL MEMBER
Vise Grip Staff "choice of champions"
thomasjtrout@yahoo.com
Keglers Pro Shop - Owner (www.keglersproshop.com)
Post by: icewall on January 31, 2010, 07:06:57 PM
also remember storm/rotogrip sand their balls 360/500/4000 ( so any sanding 1000 or greater has the possibility of actually smoothing the surface more then the OOB!)
if it was me id try some polish or smoothing the ball out with some 1000 thru 4000
but really I agree with TJ and would say the layout is the problem. its just too much flare for a high rev player.
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tweener
300 revs
16 mph
15 degrees of tilt
Edited on 1/31/2010 8:08 PM
Post by: Pozz on January 31, 2010, 07:14:03 PM
Post by: lincolnrw on January 31, 2010, 07:28:00 PM
As a side note to everyone who says its laid out wrong, my pap is 6 1/4 over and a half up. if i go pin to positive over 4 inches it rolls over the ring finger and thumb.
Edited on 1/31/2010 8:31 PM
Post by: tburky on January 31, 2010, 10:19:31 PM
Post by: Xcessive_Evil on February 01, 2010, 01:52:44 AM
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www.youtube.com/track8401
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/
Post by: Dan Belcher on February 01, 2010, 06:29:26 AM
(Real world example: I have a Mutant Cell that I've only got about 10 games on total because it's just too damn strong for its own good, and I even had to redrill it to make it more useful because it was going to require an absolute flood in the front part of the lane to have anything left on the backend. And bear in mind I only have about a 250rpm rev rate, so usually I do well with stronger equipment, but still prefer weak layouts and I can very rarely ever use anything duller than 2000 abralon)
Post by: themagician on February 01, 2010, 06:43:29 AM
A couple of the players were also high rev guys but they did not use strong layouts on the ball, I think a lot of it is people trying to use a super strong ball, with a super strong layout on a house shot and either play their line or play something way inside that they can't normally play and it leads to lots of posts like these giving a ball a bad rep without giving it a chance.
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BowlingChat.net (http://"http://www.bowlingchat.net")
Post by: icewall on February 01, 2010, 07:37:23 AM
quote:
Despite what so many people think, strong balls do not mean a lot of hook. They mean a lot of roll. You need an exceptional amount of oil to take advantage of a strong ball with a strong drilling on it, because otherwise the ball will burn up all of its energy in the front part of the lane. Even without seeing you throw the ball, I'm 99% certain you're not retaining energy for later in the lane, and that's why the ball isn't reacting well. Polish your Invasion and see if it rolls better. If not, try plugging and redrilling with a much weaker layout to get it through the front part of the lane. Otherwise, you may just be using the wrong ball. Something with a weaker core and coverstock will probably suffice.
(Real world example: I have a Mutant Cell that I've only got about 10 games on total because it's just too damn strong for its own good, and I even had to redrill it to make it more useful because it was going to require an absolute flood in the front part of the lane to have anything left on the backend. And bear in mind I only have about a 250rpm rev rate, so usually I do well with stronger equipment, but still prefer weak layouts and I can very rarely ever use anything duller than 2000 abralon)
+1
Post by: Pozz on February 01, 2010, 10:31:34 AM
Post by: OddBalls on February 01, 2010, 10:38:16 AM
quote:
Despite what so many people think, strong balls do not mean a lot of hook. They mean a lot of roll. You need an exceptional amount of oil to take advantage of a strong ball with a strong drilling on it, because otherwise the ball will burn up all of its energy in the front part of the lane. Even without seeing you throw the ball, I'm 99% certain you're not retaining energy for later in the lane, and that's why the ball isn't reacting well. Polish your Invasion and see if it rolls better. If not, try plugging and redrilling with a much weaker layout to get it through the front part of the lane. Otherwise, you may just be using the wrong ball. Something with a weaker core and coverstock will probably suffice.
(Real world example: I have a Mutant Cell that I've only got about 10 games on total because it's just too damn strong for its own good, and I even had to redrill it to make it more useful because it was going to require an absolute flood in the front part of the lane to have anything left on the backend. And bear in mind I only have about a 250rpm rev rate, so usually I do well with stronger equipment, but still prefer weak layouts and I can very rarely ever use anything duller than 2000 abralon)
Agreed..
If you don't have the oil to handle this ball, it will be DOA at the pins due to roll out..
Biggest clue os to take a benchmark ball and throw it on the same lane condition. If that ball hooks, and your"hook monster" doesn't, you have your answer. Not enough oil...
--------------------
Yes. it's I, the Inverted One..
Post by: OddBalls on February 01, 2010, 10:40:25 AM
quote:
Okay guys, so here comes a dumb question. What kind of weak layout are we talking. I have my VG stacked with the pin up a bit for some length and I struggled to get it to turn. I don't want to make the same mistake with my Invasion. I would say I am a tweener with about 300 to 350 revs and about 16 to 17 mph. What do you guys think would be a good layout?
How and when do you want to use it?
This looks likea heavy oil "queen" all the way..
Go 5" ptp with the mb just right of your thumb, wieght hole as needed.
--------------------
Yes. it's I, the Inverted One..
Post by: joblo1978 on February 01, 2010, 10:49:00 AM
I'm getting so damn sick and tired of paying money to bowl on crap lanes!
Strong ball + strong layout - oil = No hook
Your bowling balls can only store enough energy to hook once, and with oil, that will be on the backend. I love it when they hook at your feet.
With the ball being new, you prbably haven't learned the visual cues that it's trying to give you.
Not to mention that generally, these tests of different layouts, surfaces, and just video reviews for new balls in general are filmed on better than average conditions. So don't be too shocked when you roll your new ball you've been waiting for for months to find it has no hook.
Personally, I wouldn't put a 4x4 on an invasion, that's damn near a stacked leverage drilling, good luck finding oil for that beast.
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-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on February 01, 2010, 11:30:58 AM
Sounds like the ball is doing what the drill sheet describes. Have not thrown mine enough to give a review but the pin is 1" above the fingers on the center line with the "Lighting" 3" right of my thumb w/ no hole. It is more than aggressive for me.
--------------------
Bakes...Why is the 9-pin standing?
40 Boards & A Ball - www.40boards.com
Is your Ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Stepp's Glen Burnie Pro Shop
Post by: jls on February 01, 2010, 01:22:12 PM
quote:
Yes, contact Storm ASAP so they can tell you what Surface & drilling you needed. Personaly, I'd say either your ball is getting too much friction too early or Storm sent you a DUD covered Invasion.
--------------------
Seahawks Fan!
WHAT...........
Storm sent you a "dud"
Where to keyboard pounders come up with this CRAP..........
Unbelievable the CRAP that keyboard pounders POST...........
"Storm sent you a dud covered Invasion"
What a stupid comment, by a keyboard pounder....
--------------------
jls "Obama, you wanna see my truck"
Post by: Motogp69 on February 01, 2010, 02:37:02 PM
quote:
reign of fire is an arcy ball at best...not even close to skid/flip. Ball rolls continuously through the lane. As for invasion that ball needs oil. I would be very reluctant to drill the invasion with a strong layout. I feel with the stronger asymmetric cores depending on a persons axis measurements I would put the pin at least 5" from axis. Now polished you probably go stronger on the layout. I haven''t drilled mine yet (invasion or reign of fire) but will soon.
You make a comment about a how a ball rolls on something you haven''t drilled or thrown yet. I''ve thrown the Reign of Fire, and it flips plenty. Way more than the Invasion. The Invasion has the sickest amount of roll I''ve ever seen in a ball though. I hope they make it in a hybrid.
--------------------
Videos at:
http://youtube.com/user/Gsnap21
"The framers of our Constitution believed that if the people were to be sovereign and belong to different religions at the same time then our official religion would have to be no religion at all. It was a bold experiment then as it is now. It wasn''t meant to make us comfortable, it was meant to make us free."
Edited on 2/1/2010 3:37 PM
Post by: nmbr1sun99 on February 01, 2010, 02:55:50 PM
quote:
@nmbr1sun99: I just want to ask what I have seen on any of these post unless I missed it. Why did you choose a layout that has a note that says easy to get through the heads?
Sounds like the ball is doing what the drill sheet describes. Have not thrown mine enough to give a review but the pin is 1" above the fingers on the center line with the "Lighting" 3" right of my thumb w/ no hole. It is more than aggressive for me.
--------------------
Bakes...Why is the 9-pin standing?
40 Boards & A Ball - www.40boards.com
Is your Ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Stepp's Glen Burnie Pro Shop
Post by: tburky on February 01, 2010, 03:21:08 PM
quote:quote:
reign of fire is an arcy ball at best...not even close to skid/flip. Ball rolls continuously through the lane. As for invasion that ball needs oil. I would be very reluctant to drill the invasion with a strong layout. I feel with the stronger asymmetric cores depending on a persons axis measurements I would put the pin at least 5" from axis. Now polished you probably go stronger on the layout. I haven''''t drilled mine yet (invasion or reign of fire) but will soon.
You make a comment about a how a ball rolls on something you haven''''t drilled or thrown yet. I''''ve thrown the Reign of Fire, and it flips plenty. Way more than the Invasion. The Invasion has the sickest amount of roll I''''ve ever seen in a ball though. I hope they make it in a hybrid.
--------------------
Videos at:
http://youtube.com/user/Gsnap21
"The framers of our Constitution believed that if the people were to be sovereign and belong to different religions at the same time then our official religion would have to be no religion at all. It was a bold experiment then as it is now. It wasn''''t meant to make us comfortable, it was meant to make us free."
Edited on 2/1/2010 3:37 PM
for the record i have thrown both balls that did not belong to me. In fact i threw about 16 games each. Both balls roll well as long as there is oil. My rev rate is between 300-325.
Edited on 2/1/2010 4:23 PM
Post by: LotsaBalls on February 01, 2010, 03:44:47 PM
Post by: River700 on February 01, 2010, 04:10:14 PM
quote:
It was either this or 4x4x2... Hi Rev and speed. According to Storm's layouts and graphs it was up to these 2. SO my guy that drills my equipment and I decided on the 4x4x1quote:
@nmbr1sun99: I just want to ask what I have seen on any of these post unless I missed it. Why did you choose a layout that has a note that says easy to get through the heads?
Sounds like the ball is doing what the drill sheet describes. Have not thrown mine enough to give a review but the pin is 1" above the fingers on the center line with the "Lighting" 3" right of my thumb w/ no hole. It is more than aggressive for me.
--------------------
Bakes...Why is the 9-pin standing?
40 Boards & A Ball - www.40boards.com
Is your Ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
40 Boards is proudly supported by Storm Products & Stepp's Glen Burnie Pro Shop
nmbr1sun99, since you are a higher rev and speed bowler, like everyone else has said drilling a ball like the invasion 4 x 4 is going to burn up obviously. If you are able to, I would either redrill your invasion 5 x 5 x 1 1/2 - 2 inch pin buffer pin up or you could even do a 5 x 5 x 3 1/2 inch pin buffer pin down. With using these types of layouts, you can add surface like 2k or 1k and the ball will still tip on the back end. Even with a 5 - 5 1/2 pin to pap, the ball will still flare at least 5 inches, maybe 6 which is plenty.
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Bowling is fun, enjoy it, don't hate it
Post by: David Lee Yskes on February 01, 2010, 05:16:22 PM
I have my VG drilled up weak, yet the ball hooks like a monster...
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" Lift Your Skirt Grab Your Balls and Learn How to Bowl " http://coolluvr4u1976.bowlspace.com/
For my vids on youtube - search coolluvr4u1976
Post by: Bigmike on February 02, 2010, 10:14:56 AM
My experience with the predecessor, Virtual Gravity, was that weaker layouts with a stronger MB position were golden. I drilled my VG with the pin 5 1/4 from PAP (put pin directly over my bridge) and VG mark at a 70* angle (about 1-2" right of thumb). I have a modest rev rate close to 300 and with what should be a weaker layout, the VG flared almost 4-5".
I plan on drilling my Invasion the same way. Sometimes a weaker pin position with a stronger MB layout is perfect for these strong coverstock/core combos just to keep them from using all of the energy in the front part of the lane.
--------------------
"Why don't you call me sometime.....when you have no class" ~~Rodney Dangerfield to Sally Kellerman, his college professor in Back to School ~~1986
Mike Craig - Storm Products Pro Shop staff -Columbus, OH
Post by: tommygn on February 02, 2010, 12:34:24 PM
--------------------
Tommy Gollick
Storm Regional/Pro Shop staff
Red Crown Pro Shop Harrisburg, PA
stormbowling.com
Post by: vindo27 on February 02, 2010, 09:51:48 PM
Post by: joblo1978 on February 03, 2010, 02:16:46 PM
You should learn a litle about ball layouts, your PAP, and the sweet spots to place your pin for your style. MB is fairly important, but not as important as CG location which ends up giving you your static weight. Pin to PAP is the most important, that's where you get length and can really control the hook you get.
Don't worry about it, we all learn the hard way.
Just because a ball is drilled to hook doesn't mean it will. If you can get some hand in the ball you need longer pin distances such as 4.5-5.5 inches. Possibly even 6 These layouts add fingerweight, which increase length. On most house shots, again, I say HOUSE shots this gives you better skid through the heads and a stronger move on the backend.
Drill the ball 5.5 x 5 and just watch it rip the cover off on the backend.
I have a 4x4, 5x3, and 5x4, all drilled pin over. My overall favorite is the 5x3 on my virtual energy. It's not a strong layout by any means, but the ball gets length, revs up really fast, and stores plenty of energy for a very strong arc to the pocket on the backed. 4x4 gives me the most continuous hook throughout the lane if the oil and surface is right, and the 5x4 gives me lots of length with a quick and angular reaction.
You can learn just about everything on ball layouts in just a matter of hours.
--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now
Post by: LotsaBalls on February 03, 2010, 02:40:08 PM
quote:
Yeah man, just because the drilling guide sais that, doesn't mean that's the look you're going to get, or what you really want.
You should learn a litle about ball layouts, your PAP, and the sweet spots to place your pin for your style. MB is fairly important, but not as important as CG location which ends up giving you your static weight. Pin to PAP is the most important, that's where you get length and can really control the hook you get.
Don't worry about it, we all learn the hard way.
Just because a ball is drilled to hook doesn't mean it will. If you can get some hand in the ball you need longer pin distances such as 4.5-5.5 inches. Possibly even 6 These layouts add fingerweight, which increase length. On most house shots, again, I say HOUSE shots this gives you better skid through the heads and a stronger move on the backend.
Drill the ball 5.5 x 5 and just watch it rip the cover off on the backend.
I have a 4x4, 5x3, and 5x4, all drilled pin over. My overall favorite is the 5x3 on my virtual energy. It's not a strong layout by any means, but the ball gets length, revs up really fast, and stores plenty of energy for a very strong arc to the pocket on the backed. 4x4 gives me the most continuous hook throughout the lane if the oil and surface is right, and the 5x4 gives me lots of length with a quick and angular reaction.
You can learn just about everything on ball layouts in just a matter of hours.
--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now
Maybe you should take some of your own advise, statics weights mean about as much as the color of your grips.
Post by: FBM357 on February 03, 2010, 03:23:07 PM
quote:
You should learn a litle about ball layouts, your PAP, and the sweet spots to place your pin for your style. MB is fairly important, but not as important as CG location which ends up giving you your static weight . Pin to PAP is the most important, that's where you get length and can really control the hook you get.
--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
runs and hide from future posts being made about the above statment
Post by: Monster Pike on February 03, 2010, 03:27:54 PM
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Monster Pike
Proud to have served in the U.S. Army!!
Post by: agroves on February 03, 2010, 03:40:18 PM
quote:
You should learn a litle about ball layouts, your PAP, and the sweet spots to place your pin for your style. MB is fairly important, but not as important as CG location which ends up giving you your static weight.
Okie dokie.
quote:
You can learn just about everything on ball layouts in just a matter of hours.
Seriously? EVERYTHING in an matter of hours?
--------------------
Proshop Operator
North Bowl Bowling Center
www.northbowlspokane.com
ctwings10--"Here's the problem with any retail service - You can't fix stupid."
Post by: srlunatic on February 03, 2010, 03:50:24 PM
Put a piece of white tape on your PAP..
Throw the ball and watch and see how fast the tape migrates...
If it is burning early you will see the tape move very quickly..
If it is...polish..
If not....more surface...
Invasion is a serious strong ball and my "guess" would be serious burnout.
If it is burnout due to such a strong layout...may I suggest this??
From 2009 Brunswick Layouts...
Mid Lane Hook and Backend
Asymmetric Core
Best Pin Out Distance to use" 0 to 3 1/2
Locator Pin/PSA/MB at 60 Degrees
Pin Below Fingers - VAL angle at 70 Degrees
5 inch PIN TO PAP for Medium Track...1/2 up or down if high or low track
This layout helps bowlers open up the mid-lane and recover on heavy carrydown
Responds to the lane soon
Responds slow to friction
If X hole needed...draw line from Center of Grip through CG and place on VAL
A favorite layout for fresh PBA And Sport Conditions
I have put this layout on my Mutant Cell and it is something else...
Hope this helps!
--------------------
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Post by: OddBalls on February 03, 2010, 03:56:20 PM
quote:
You should learn a litle about ball layouts, your PAP, and the sweet spots to place your pin for your style. MB is fairly important, but not as important as CG location which ends up giving you your static weight. Pin to PAP is the most important, that's where you get length and can really control the hook you get.
You must have been in a lane#1 pro shop..lol..
Other than the pin, the MB is the strongest influence on ball motion and reaction..
CGmaddasevenless..
--------------------
Yes. it's I, the Inverted One..
Post by: Hamburglar on February 03, 2010, 08:23:48 PM
quote:
strong layouts on a ball that already hooks a ton for high rev players is going to cause very early burn up.
I wish more people understood this. This guy I know, strong as an ox with a ton of revs and speed, has a Morich Awesome Hook, drilled very strong, which he sands every week before league with what looks like 60 grit sandpaper (OK, maybe 400 but still too rough of a grit)...our shot has been abnormally dry for a while now...anyway, he wonders why his ball doesn''t hook like he thinks it should. I''ve tried explaining it but he doesn''t understand the "losing energy" part of the equation. Sad and funny all rolled into one...
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That which doesn''t kill you will only make you stronger, that which doesn''t make you stronger is a waste of time!
Edited on 2/3/2010 9:25 PM
Post by: joblo1978 on February 03, 2010, 10:45:33 PM
Ever tried to roll a ball with an ounce and a half of sideweight? I have, rolls crazy early. If mass bias was so important, every ball would have one, symettrical balls do not as we all know. Placing the CG to shift weight is going to move the mass bias as well so....
Whatever guys.
I'm not completely ignorant when it comes to this.
quote:quote:
You should learn a litle about ball layouts, your PAP, and the sweet spots to place your pin for your style. MB is fairly important, but not as important as CG location which ends up giving you your static weight . Pin to PAP is the most important, that's where you get length and can really control the hook you get.
--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
runs and hide from future posts being made about the above statment
--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now
Post by: joblo1978 on February 03, 2010, 10:49:19 PM
Bowling ball layouts isn't rocket science dude. There are really only 5 basic ball reactions and 3 types of bowlers.
Gimme a break and stop being so self righteous
quote:quote:
You should learn a litle about ball layouts, your PAP, and the sweet spots to place your pin for your style. MB is fairly important, but not as important as CG location which ends up giving you your static weight.
Okie dokie.
quote:
You can learn just about everything on ball layouts in just a matter of hours.
Seriously? EVERYTHING in an matter of hours?
--------------------
Proshop Operator
North Bowl Bowling Center
www.northbowlspokane.com
ctwings10--"Here's the problem with any retail service - You can't fix stupid."
--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now
Post by: completebowler on February 03, 2010, 11:41:38 PM
quote:
What's so wrong with this post?
Ever tried to roll a ball with an ounce and a half of sideweight? I have, rolls crazy early. If mass bias was so important, every ball would have one, symettrical balls do not as we all know. Placing the CG to shift weight is going to move the mass bias as well so....
Whatever guys.
I'm not completely ignorant when it comes to this.quote:quote:
You should learn a litle about ball layouts, your PAP, and the sweet spots to place your pin for your style. MB is fairly important, but not as important as CG location which ends up giving you your static weight . Pin to PAP is the most important, that's where you get length and can really control the hook you get.
--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
runs and hide from future posts being made about the above statment
--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now
Yeah....actually you are very ignorant in your posts. Please do everyone a favor and quit commenting on things you know nothing about. Learn something and then comeback maybe.
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Post by: guffnuh on February 03, 2010, 11:49:08 PM
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High Game: 300 X3
High Series: 814,806
Average: 215
Spokane JBT Titles: 1
Almost 5 years of bowling
14 years old
What's the difference between ignorance and apathy?
I don't know and I don't care!
youtube.com/guffnuh
WATCH MY BOWLING VIDEOS!!!!!
Post by: riggs on February 04, 2010, 04:50:07 AM
Post by: toomanytenpins on February 04, 2010, 06:00:19 AM
The other day i was practicing on a very tight shot ,using the vg trying to figure out how to carry the 10,nothing was working.I polished it and thats when it started to carry. I am a stroker,low speed and revs and i see where i just couldn't get enough on the ball to get it down lane before it burned up. Morale of the story is,if you buy a strong ball and intend to use it in league drill it weak if not hold it until you need it and dont complain when it wont work on your ths.
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my style, the art of bowling without bowling
Post by: joblo1978 on February 04, 2010, 06:39:48 AM
I've laid out several of my own balls and had holes put where I wanted and get my desired reaction, so whatever dude.
Kegel bowling ball tech school is only 3 days, so get over yourself. Oh yeah, a really difficult thing to obtain certification for. Sorry, but I've gone on to bigger and better things in life besides drilling holes in a ball for a living.
Maybe you just struggled with 8th grade geometry and it's hard for you to use a ruler. Maybe your pro-sect didn't come with an instruction manual and you're a little confused on what all those numbers mean.
I don't understand why, but I can see how that would be an issue for you when it comes to things like this.
Easy stuff man, and more than one way to get to a desired outcome. Takes a whole 2 min. to draw 3 semicircles, or 2 angles and one measurement with a little knowledge of the bowler and what reaction they want, providing they know what they want and a little about their physical game. No reason to make things complicated or try and split hairs, it's unnecessary.
Simply saying "drill the ball strong" is a relative term, and I'm not going to waste any more time explaining myself, level of knowldge and skill to anyone after this post.
Most people don't even know the slightest thing about what they want out of a bowling ball or what a PAP is.
Do I know EVERYTHING, no, never claimed to, but neither does anyone else. But there are plenty of resources, docs. (such as the Morich dual angle layout guide), and charts to make understanding this stuff really simple provided you have a basic understanding of physics, geometry, and have the brain capacity to make a mental image of what you're doing when aligning the core with the bowler. Yes, a good grasp of the basics can be had with a few hours of research and messing around with a quarterscale on some of your own equipment.
I know enough to get what I want/need out of a ball layout wise, and I'll never have another pro-shop operator try and tell me what I need and randomly put holes in my gear.
Nothing more is really necessary.
quote:quote:
What's so wrong with this post?
Ever tried to roll a ball with an ounce and a half of sideweight? I have, rolls crazy early. If mass bias was so important, every ball would have one, symettrical balls do not as we all know. Placing the CG to shift weight is going to move the mass bias as well so....
Whatever guys.
I'm not completely ignorant when it comes to this.quote:quote:
You should learn a litle about ball layouts, your PAP, and the sweet spots to place your pin for your style. MB is fairly important, but not as important as CG location which ends up giving you your static weight . Pin to PAP is the most important, that's where you get length and can really control the hook you get.
--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
runs and hide from future posts being made about the above statment
--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now
Yeah....actually you are very ignorant in your posts. Please do everyone a favor and quit commenting on things you know nothing about. Learn something and then comeback maybe.
--------------------
--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now
Post by: icewall on February 04, 2010, 07:13:32 AM
that was a wise choice :-)
but seriously. anyone who makes the statement that cg has more effect then mb loses all credibility right away.
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tweener
300 revs
16 mph
15 degrees of tilt
Post by: joblo1978 on February 04, 2010, 07:49:46 AM
Bowling balls didn't always have a mass bias, and still today not every ball has it actually marked. It's not THAT important on all balls. If your drilling a symettrical ball, how else are you going to place your artificial MB without measuring through the CG? How else are you going to determine if a weight hole is necessary other than CG placement and static weights?
What if your ball has 0-.5" pin placement? You simply cannot find the MB without the CG.
Whether you prefer to use MB or CG placement after selecting your desired pin to PAP, one or the other is going to fall where it does.
CG only counts for maybe 10% of ball reaction.
We're getting off topic here, but I too agree that a 4x4 on an Invasion would be great for someone that gets less hand on the ball and a higher degree of axis tilt.
quote:
"runs and hide from future posts being made about the above statment"
that was a wise choice :-)
but seriously. anyone who makes the statement that cg has more effect then mb loses all credibility right away.
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tweener
300 revs
16 mph
15 degrees of tilt
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-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now
Post by: agroves on February 04, 2010, 08:03:22 AM
quote:
If mass bias was so important, every ball would have one, symettrical balls do not as we all know.
Actually, ALL drilled balls do. But, I''m sure you knew that in your one hour of learning and research.
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Proshop Operator
North Bowl Bowling Center
www.northbowlspokane.com
ctwings10--"Here''s the problem with any retail service - You can''t fix stupid."
Edited on 2/4/2010 9:04 AM
Post by: Dan Belcher on February 04, 2010, 08:04:25 AM
Post by: joblo1978 on February 04, 2010, 08:10:25 AM
quote:quote:
If mass bias was so important, every ball would have one, symettrical balls do not as we all know.
Actually, ALL drilled balls do. But, I''''m sure you knew that in your one hour of learning and research.
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Proshop Operator
North Bowl Bowling Center
www.northbowlspokane.com
ctwings10--"Here''''s the problem with any retail service - You can''''t fix stupid."
Edited on 2/4/2010 9:04 AM
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-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
Really enjoyin'' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now
Edited on 2/4/2010 9:10 AM
Post by: joblo1978 on February 04, 2010, 08:31:51 AM
The reason its placement seems to have such a big difference is because on the cover of the ball it is further away from the pin than the CG. Put the MB wherever you want and let the pin and cg fall wherever if you want, that works too. There are multiple methods to lay out a ball and get what you're looking for other than JUST MB placement.
Moving the MB closer to you VAL is going to result in less flip, a faster revving ball and you got the expected reaction. 2 inches is a good bit dependent on where you had it before.
quote:
joblo1978, yeah, the mass bias on a symmetrical ball (it's not marked, but technically it barely exists) doesn't matter very much at all. (And when placed within the legal static weight limits, the CG doesn't have that big of an effect beyond dictating what kind of x-hole you can use to alter ball reaction) However, on a ball like the Invasion with a significant amount of intermediate differential, that mass bias makes a BIG difference in how it rolls. For example, I recently redrilled a Mutant Cell because I had placed the mass bias too far away from my VAL and made the ball a little too long and too flippy. I barely moved the pin and the CG, but swung the mass bias about two inches closer to my VAL, and suddenly the ball has a predictable midlane roll it didn't have before.
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-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now
Post by: joblo1978 on February 04, 2010, 08:41:42 AM
Because before I knew what I know now, I had some knucklehead hand me a ball that he just punched that was out of legal limits. I couldn''t figure out why my brand new Cell Pearl didn''t look right going through the heads.
So pardon me if I place too much emphasis on CG''s and static weights
Could this be the dude''s problem with the invasion and why it''s "not what he expected", because my Cell Pearl sure wasn''t what I expected after the first roll.
quote:
joblo1978, yeah, the mass bias on a symmetrical ball (it''s not marked, but technically it barely exists) doesn''t matter very much at all. (And when placed within the legal static weight limits, the CG doesn''t have that big of an effect beyond dictating what kind of x-hole you can use to alter ball reaction) However, on a ball like the Invasion with a significant amount of intermediate differential, that mass bias makes a BIG difference in how it rolls. For example, I recently redrilled a Mutant Cell because I had placed the mass bias too far away from my VAL and made the ball a little too long and too flippy. I barely moved the pin and the CG, but swung the mass bias about two inches closer to my VAL, and suddenly the ball has a predictable midlane roll it didn''t have before.
--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
Really enjoyin'' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now
Edited on 2/4/2010 9:43 AM
Post by: icewall on February 04, 2010, 09:09:30 AM
im not the type to start an argument. but please don't state misinformation. this mans post has gotten way off topic. if you want to strut your ball drilling knowledge / skills then open a new topic in the drilling forum.
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tweener
300 revs
16 mph
15 degrees of tilt
Post by: joblo1978 on February 04, 2010, 09:21:44 AM
The MB on a symmetrical ball is 6 3/4" from the pin through the CG. Assymetrical balls have the MB marked on the cover with various symbols and designs. Storm has most recently been using a key.
You should read above. The OP might want to check his static balance on his Invasion and make sure it's within legal tolerances.
If it's not, he could be given the impression that has ball is not hooking, when actually it is, albeit way too early.
Thanks....Dad
quote:
you dont find MB by using the cg.
im not the type to start an argument. but please don't state misinformation. this mans post has gotten way off topic. if you want to strut your ball drilling knowledge / skills then open a new topic in the drilling forum.
--------------------
tweener
300 revs
16 mph
15 degrees of tilt
--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now
Post by: icewall on February 04, 2010, 11:59:47 AM
the old way of finding the theoretical mass bias on a symmetrical cored ball was 6 3/4" from the pin thru the cg. but it is not the true mb after drilling.
and besides even that, I already mentioned that you hijacked this thread. If you want to strut your ball drilling knowledge ego, open your own thread in the drilling section. It is usually wise to check your ego at the door before taking over someones thread.
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tweener
300 revs
16 mph
15 degrees of tilt
Post by: vindo27 on February 04, 2010, 01:10:14 PM
p.s. cfd and relax, we are talking about bowling.
Post by: StickZ on February 06, 2010, 07:34:16 PM
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Career High Game: 300x2
Career High Series: 774
High Game 09'-10' Season:279
High Series 09'-10':715
KiDSGoTGaMe
Post by: joblo1978 on February 07, 2010, 10:26:36 AM
He was thinking about a 4x4, but he hasn't bought a new ball in about 10 years, maybe more. I told him that it was gonna hook very early and he was gonna have trouble keeping up with it.
I suggested a 5x3 for him and that's what he went with. Driller put a 2" pin buffer with 5/8 sideweight. His revrate is about 270 and he has matched speed and is a high tracker. He's throwing a 16 pounder also. Ball hooks an insane amount at OOB finish. Easily the strongest ball I've ever seen. Noticeably stronger than my 5x4 mutant cell. He really likes it and told me he's glad he didn't go with a 4x4 after rolling it. He was able to stay with it for 3 games also.
Ball hits very hard and flings messengers like crazy. The Invasion is an absolute beast with the right layout and amount of oil!
Last night on a flush pocket hit, he had a pin come off the backstop, wrap back around the 7 and land on the deck, he's a right hander. Probably the weirdest leave I've ever seen.
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-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now
Post by: completebowler on February 07, 2010, 11:59:05 AM
quote:
Well, one of my buddies just got one of these Invasions.
He was thinking about a 4x4, but he hasn't bought a new ball in about 10 years, maybe more. I told him that it was gonna hook very early and he was gonna have trouble keeping up with it.
I suggested a 5x3 for him and that's what he went with. Driller put a 2" pin buffer with 5/8 sideweight. His revrate is about 270 and he has matched speed and is a high tracker. He's throwing a 16 pounder also. Ball hooks an insane amount at OOB finish. Easily the strongest ball I've ever seen. Noticeably stronger than my 5x4 mutant cell. He really likes it and told me he's glad he didn't go with a 4x4 after rolling it. He was able to stay with it for 3 games also.
Ball hits very hard and flings messengers like crazy. The Invasion is an absolute beast with the right layout and amount of oil!
Last night on a flush pocket hit, he had a pin come off the backstop, wrap back around the 7 and land on the deck, he's a right hander. Probably the weirdest leave I've ever seen.
--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now
So now that you have seen an Invasion you realize that you posted yet another ignorant statement earlier.
Storm's most recent MB marking is a lightning bolt....not a key.
And although most on here knew what you were referring to we also knew that, just as your argument about CB's and statics, you simply are not informed about what you are talking.
So now.....carry on to somewhere else. Your credibility here has been shot.
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Post by: joblo1978 on February 07, 2010, 01:51:05 PM
You haven't made one post or stating anything making you at all creditable. Easy to say how creditable you are when you post nothing but neutral spam.
And I'll take whatever I want wherever I want.
You're just a virtual crybaby.
quote:quote:
Well, one of my buddies just got one of these Invasions.
He was thinking about a 4x4, but he hasn't bought a new ball in about 10 years, maybe more. I told him that it was gonna hook very early and he was gonna have trouble keeping up with it.
I suggested a 5x3 for him and that's what he went with. Driller put a 2" pin buffer with 5/8 sideweight. His revrate is about 270 and he has matched speed and is a high tracker. He's throwing a 16 pounder also. Ball hooks an insane amount at OOB finish. Easily the strongest ball I've ever seen. Noticeably stronger than my 5x4 mutant cell. He really likes it and told me he's glad he didn't go with a 4x4 after rolling it. He was able to stay with it for 3 games also.
Ball hits very hard and flings messengers like crazy. The Invasion is an absolute beast with the right layout and amount of oil!
Last night on a flush pocket hit, he had a pin come off the backstop, wrap back around the 7 and land on the deck, he's a right hander. Probably the weirdest leave I've ever seen.
--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now
So now that you have seen an Invasion you realize that you posted yet another ignorant statement earlier.
Storm's most recent MB marking is a lightning bolt....not a key.
And although most on here knew what you were referring to we also knew that, just as your argument about CB's and statics, you simply are not informed about what you are talking.
So now.....carry on to somewhere else. Your credibility here has been shot.
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-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now
Post by: r534me on February 07, 2010, 02:25:49 PM
Post by: normy on February 07, 2010, 08:45:18 PM
quote:
Thanks for the brilliant response...
You haven't made one post or stating anything making you at all creditable. Easy to say how creditable you are when you post nothing but neutral spam.
And I'll take whatever I want wherever I want.
You're just a virtual crybaby.quote:quote:
Well, one of my buddies just got one of these Invasions.
He was thinking about a 4x4, but he hasn't bought a new ball in about 10 years, maybe more. I told him that it was gonna hook very early and he was gonna have trouble keeping up with it.
I suggested a 5x3 for him and that's what he went with. Driller put a 2" pin buffer with 5/8 sideweight. His revrate is about 270 and he has matched speed and is a high tracker. He's throwing a 16 pounder also. Ball hooks an insane amount at OOB finish. Easily the strongest ball I've ever seen. Noticeably stronger than my 5x4 mutant cell. He really likes it and told me he's glad he didn't go with a 4x4 after rolling it. He was able to stay with it for 3 games also.
Ball hits very hard and flings messengers like crazy. The Invasion is an absolute beast with the right layout and amount of oil!
Last night on a flush pocket hit, he had a pin come off the backstop, wrap back around the 7 and land on the deck, he's a right hander. Probably the weirdest leave I've ever seen.
--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now
So now that you have seen an Invasion you realize that you posted yet another ignorant statement earlier.
Storm's most recent MB marking is a lightning bolt....not a key.
And although most on here knew what you were referring to we also knew that, just as your argument about CB's and statics, you simply are not informed about what you are talking.
So now.....carry on to somewhere else. Your credibility here has been shot.
--------------------
--------------------
-John B.
734 high series, 278 high game
Really enjoyin' the Virtual Energy and Mutant Cell right now