Post by: Miffy1980 on May 27, 2010, 02:05:16 PM
Post by: surface_solutions on June 05, 2010, 04:03:59 PM
If you want a good urethane ball with GREAT reaction and superb pin carry get yourself an AMF Hype Urethane! It is hands down one of the best balls that I have ever thrown.
I tried to stick with AMF/Global for about 2 years and had nothing to show for it, I have since gone to Storm/Roto and made a huge turn around since X-mas so they are my guys. I just can't say enough about that one ball.
Not to mention the core is kind of similar to the old SD-73....
--------------------
(616) 690-0590
surface_solutions_proshop@yahoo.com
{Be sure to inlcude _ if sending e-mails or payment to paypal}
Link to arsenal:
Post by: Juggernaut on June 05, 2010, 04:45:45 PM
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Good transactions list in my profile
Post by: kleze on June 05, 2010, 04:52:00 PM
Post by: boysofsummer23 on June 05, 2010, 05:06:39 PM
Post by: themachine300 on June 05, 2010, 08:29:37 PM
--------------------
www.bowlingsolutions.com
Bowl to win!!!
Move left, hook it more.....
Tommy Jones and Kenny Simard are Gamecock fans...are you???
Post by: Doug Sterner on June 05, 2010, 11:46:51 PM
When the conditions are right the ball is devastating. If you are trying to force the ball to work on a condition that is less than ideal the ball will look bad.
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
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Post by: DanH78 on June 06, 2010, 01:01:15 AM
quote:
Is that true?
Who did you hear this from?
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It IS next year!
Post by: lsf_21 on June 06, 2010, 01:01:38 AM
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GO CUBS!!!!
GO CELTICS!!!!
Post by: BrunsMike on June 06, 2010, 02:20:28 AM
I use my natural A LOT! The last 3 months of leauge I used that ball exclusivly. Shot 630+ every night with it playing up 10 board most of the night. Maybe move a board or 2 by the end of the night to retain pin carry.
If the ball is being discontinued then that will be storms worst decision in a while.
The AMF Hype is not a true urethane because it has solid mixed into the coverstock which causes that "urethane" to hook more then the natural. The Natural uses no pearl or solid additives hance the name "NATURAL"!
--------------------
Mike Zadler
"When in doubt, Pull out" - Rob Stone
Below, my stats from previous seasons:
http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=552&suffix=12886
Post by: clt2244 on June 06, 2010, 05:22:18 AM
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Only throw the good stuff, Roto/Global.
BowlingChat.net (http://"http://www.bowlingchat.net")
RIP Sawbones
Post by: kidlost2000 on June 06, 2010, 06:16:21 AM
Most don't bowl on those conditions. Most of the tour players that were using it with success were those with higher rev rates. I saw a few local average bowlers throwing this ball and had little to no real success. They didn't have the higher rev rate and the ball was just a bit too much on the weak side for them.
It may be a flop in overall sales but that doesn't mean the ball its self is the problem. It just falls into a nitch market for many. We will see over the next year or two with other companies releasing similar products if the overall concept of bringing back urethane will continue.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
Post by: n00dlejester on June 06, 2010, 07:59:50 AM
quote:
It may be a great ball, but that doesn't mean great sales numbers. Tour players loving it also doesn't equal great sales.
Most don't bowl on those conditions. Most of the tour players that were using it with success were those with higher rev rates. I saw a few local average bowlers throwing this ball and had little to no real success. They didn't have the higher rev rate and the ball was just a bit too much on the weak side for them.
It may be a flop in overall sales but that doesn't mean the ball its self is the problem. It just falls into a nitch market for many. We will see over the next year or two with other companies releasing similar products if the overall concept of bringing back urethane will continue.
--------------------
" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
Yeah yeah. What he said.
--------------------
Proud Supporter of Rob Stone
Obviously, you aren't a golfer.
Some stayed in the foothills, some washed logs like teeth.
Post by: qstick777 on June 06, 2010, 10:14:03 AM
quote:
The Natural is far from being a Flop of a ball, you want a flop of a ball look at the Radical Inferno.....
I use my natural A LOT! The last 3 months of leauge I used that ball exclusivly. Shot 630+ every night with it playing up 10 board most of the night. Maybe move a board or 2 by the end of the night to retain pin carry.
If the ball is being discontinued then that will be storms worst decision in a while.
The AMF Hype is not a true urethane because it has solid mixed into the coverstock which causes that "urethane" to hook more then the natural. The Natural uses no pearl or solid additives hance the name "NATURAL"!
--------------------
Mike Zadler
"When in doubt, Pull out" - Rob Stone
Below, my stats from previous seasons:
http://members.bowl.com/SearchUSBC/ViewMember.aspx?prefix=552&suffix=12886
Wow, it's amazing what you read around here.
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=244112&ForumID=1&CategoryID=2
quote:
There has been some speculation as to the authenticity of todays "Urethane" balls. For instance, a rep here in my area said that the Natural by Storm, marketed urethane, is actually a blended cover combining reactive parts with urethane parts.
And from a response later in the thread:
Quote
From the Black Angle info sheet it is a blended urethane F-20, the AMF site states the Hype only as F-20 urethane, if I'm not mistaken a conversation a short time back with Eric I believed he said it was the same cover as on the Black Angle, the difference being the Hype has a strong core pushing the tires.
So many people saying so many things, how do we know the truth?
Urethane, blended, solid additives, pearl additives, slip agents, etc. Does it really matter? If the ball works I don't really care what the coverstock is!
Post by: r534me on June 06, 2010, 07:10:48 PM
Post by: LotsaBalls on June 06, 2010, 07:29:56 PM
Post by: themachine300 on June 06, 2010, 07:38:52 PM
--------------------
www.bowlingsolutions.com
Bowl to win!!!
Move left, hook it more.....
Tommy Jones and Kenny Simard are Gamecock fans...are you???
Post by: lsf_21 on June 06, 2010, 09:31:56 PM
quote:
Coverstock does not create flare. It''s the core of the ball. You can get a ball made of out of wood to flare if you could produce core inside of it.
Coverstock provides surface friction to the lane.
Edited on 6/6/2010 7:42 PM
Cant be true.. makes to much sense
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GO CUBS!!!!
GO CELTICS!!!!
Post by: themachine300 on June 06, 2010, 09:45:32 PM
--------------------
www.bowlingsolutions.com
Bowl to win!!!
Move left, hook it more.....
Tommy Jones and Kenny Simard are Gamecock fans...are you???
Edited on 6/6/2010 9:45 PM
Post by: r534me on June 06, 2010, 10:08:39 PM
quote:
From what I have seen of the Hype is that it hooks at your toe. Not exactly what I am looking for when the lanes are hooking.
It works pretty good on a wet/dry and short patterns. Guys with lots of revs will see it hook early but it will arc to the pocket.
Post by: r534me on June 06, 2010, 10:10:14 PM
quote:
Coverstock does not create flare. It''s the core of the ball. You can get a ball made of out of wood to flare if you could produce core inside of it.
Coverstock provides surface friction to the lane.
Edited on 6/6/2010 7:42 PM
Yup, very true, my Rapid Fire Soild and T-roads flare less than my Natural.
Post by: kidlost2000 on June 06, 2010, 10:10:26 PM
Urethane with any kind of decent core will still hook plenty. Usually appears to be flatter on the backends compared to resin. Many people think the pearl urethane looks almost identical in reaction to resin. So maybe it requires the bowler to be the difference more then the ball. Imagine that.
--------------------
" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
Post by: r534me on June 07, 2010, 12:01:20 AM
If you want to see a guy with the huge revs and ball control look for Jimmy Keeth. He makes Bob Learn look like Earl Anthony as far as revs are concerned. According to the thread on the PBA dot com forums, Jimmy Keeth was tested at Kegel and his rev rate was either 712 or 722.
Post by: tizzle on June 07, 2010, 01:58:58 AM
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Owner of Brazen Bowling Supply... authorized seller of Lane1,Big B,Morich,Storm,Roto,Seismic,Visionary,Ebonite,Hammer,Columbia, and Track... I can get anything.. give me the chance to earn your business!
Post by: dizzyfugu on June 07, 2010, 02:07:43 AM
I have seen a few in action. Best performance was in high rev guys hands, but they'd make any ball look good... low rev guys seem to be less successfull - I have even seen one as a pure spare ball.
--------------------
DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Post by: mrgriswold on June 07, 2010, 08:32:27 PM
quote:
I for one believe that the natural has some form of resin in it. Mine flares alot, at least 4-5" inches with 1/4" spacings. I have to throw it shiny, dull hooks at my feet, but I was expecting one big track of oil with minimual seperation.
That's what I have noticed with my Natural when I use side rotation with my characteristic high track. Early move with a weaker hit. When I relax and come straight up on the ball, boom. Early but smooth and continuous reaction. When the lanes really break down, this ball is pure-D money. Ball is drilled pin over and between the fingers, CG kicked out slightly.
Post by: kidlost2000 on June 07, 2010, 08:58:45 PM
--------------------
" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
Post by: RoToE_SLICK on June 07, 2010, 10:18:50 PM
--------------------
Tyler Jensen
Regional Sales Manager for
Storm Products INC &
Turbo 2n1 Grips
TylerJ@stormbowling.com
Post by: TheDude on June 08, 2010, 08:25:38 AM
--------------------
Timothy @Juniors Pro-Shops
LaSalle, Quebec-Located inside Pont Mercier Lanes.
Keep them honest!
Ebay store updated very often: http://stores.ebay.com/gumby3170?refid+store
Post by: r534me on June 08, 2010, 09:02:45 AM
quote:
If you watch the vid of Jimmy Keeth bowling he isn''''t in the 700 rev rate. The vid of him on youtube against WRW is the reason I say that. 500-700 revs is a lot and his ball reaction being in some from WRW isn''''t that dramatic. He cradles the ball and generates a lot of revs for the time, but no way it is that high.
--------------------
" men lie, women lie, numbers don''''t "
I didn''t write he rolled 700 revs on TV. I wrote he was tested at Kegel and he had 700 plus revs. If you took the time to go to pba dot com you would have found that robert smith even responded to the thread. Do you think Bob Vespi hooked it a lot? Add a couple hundred more revs to the ball and think about what his reaction would have been.
Here''s Maximum Bob using the same ball. Jimmy Keeth had more revs than Robert Smith.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9bnH614taA
Edited on 6/8/2010 9:10 AM
Post by: r534me on June 08, 2010, 09:43:42 AM
quote:
If you watch the vid of Jimmy Keeth bowling he isn''t in the 700 rev rate. The vid of him on youtube against WRW is the reason I say that. 500-700 revs is a lot and his ball reaction being in some from WRW isn''t that dramatic. He cradles the ball and generates a lot of revs for the time, but no way it is that high.
--------------------
" men lie, women lie, numbers don''t "
He''s cradles the ball and uncups and snaps it like most power players. And he works the inside the ball as well. It doesn''t look very fast either but from point of release to the impact of the pins it''s two seconds. Maximum Bob is two point one seconds in the High Roller video.
You might not have a pba forum account so I retract the statement about taking the time to go there. Here''s the quote from Max Bob,
"Jimmy Keith was the King of the Rev. thought he threw the ball with his forearm more than his hand. unreal. Belmo and Osku cheat!!! just kidding. i know both of them and yes i am the sissy in that group. all good."
http://pbaforum.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=860918&page=8
Edited on 6/8/2010 9:44 AM
Post by: jls on June 12, 2010, 11:51:35 AM
quote:
A flop? Really? I know a ton of people who would disagree with that. Including some tour guys.
Sir, I believe when he said it was a flop, he meant in sales at the retail level...
No doubt this was indeed a GREAT ball for Tournament bowlers...
But since most bowlers "AIN'T" tournament bowlers, the ball was just way to tame for them...
Another reason why this ball along with the Fast and Furious may have struggled was due to the pricing of the Freeze line...
These Storm models came in about $50 higher...
Now Storm/Roto has tried to answer back with the Riot and the Dark Star. Both a little more reasonably priced.
--------------------
jls
Post by: Curt_Dupre on June 12, 2010, 07:14:54 PM
quote:
STILL in production!
--------------------
Tyler Jensen
Regional Sales Manager for
Storm Products INC &
Turbo 2n1 Grips
TylerJ@stormbowling.com
Who the hell is this guy posting and acting like he is with Storm? I don't believe that this ball is still in production. I just don't believe it.
--------------------
Trackbowling.com
Mccorveysproshop.com
Track Regional Staff
Post by: r534me on June 13, 2010, 04:22:11 AM
quote:quote:
A flop? Really? I know a ton of people who would disagree with that. Including some tour guys.
Sir, I believe when he said it was a flop, he meant in sales at the retail level...
No doubt this was indeed a GREAT ball for Tournament bowlers...
But since most bowlers "AIN'T" tournament bowlers, the ball was just way to tame for them...
Another reason why this ball along with the Fast and Furious may have struggled was due to the pricing of the Freeze line...
These Storm models came in about $50 higher...
Now Storm/Roto has tried to answer back with the Riot and the Dark Star. Both a little more reasonably priced.
--------------------
jls
I don't know if the natural is or isn't a sales flop but the RG Grenade is priced similar to the Natural.
Post by: jls on June 14, 2010, 10:44:54 AM
quote:quote:quote:
A flop? Really? I know a ton of people who would disagree with that. Including some tour guys.
Sir, I believe when he said it was a flop, he meant in sales at the retail level...
No doubt this was indeed a GREAT ball for Tournament bowlers...
But since most bowlers "AIN'T" tournament bowlers, the ball was just way to tame for them...
Another reason why this ball along with the Fast and Furious may have struggled was due to the pricing of the Freeze line...
These Storm models came in about $50 higher...
Now Storm/Roto has tried to answer back with the Riot and the Dark Star. Both a little more reasonably priced.
--------------------
jls
I don't know if the natural is or isn't a sales flop but the RG Grenade is priced similar to the Natural.
Sir
The Grenade was just released last week if I'm not mistaken...
The next call on that ball will be the first call...
Too early to tell how this model will do...
But since it's about $20 higher in cost than a Freeze...I would be a little worried...
But we shall see...
Hope it does well...
--------------------
jls
Post by: r534me on June 15, 2010, 12:54:53 AM
quote:quote:quote:quote:
A flop? Really? I know a ton of people who would disagree with that. Including some tour guys.
Sir, I believe when he said it was a flop, he meant in sales at the retail level...
No doubt this was indeed a GREAT ball for Tournament bowlers...
But since most bowlers "AIN'T" tournament bowlers, the ball was just way to tame for them...
Another reason why this ball along with the Fast and Furious may have struggled was due to the pricing of the Freeze line...
These Storm models came in about $50 higher...
Now Storm/Roto has tried to answer back with the Riot and the Dark Star. Both a little more reasonably priced.
--------------------
jls
I don't know if the natural is or isn't a sales flop but the RG Grenade is priced similar to the Natural.
Sir
The Grenade was just released last week if I'm not mistaken...
The next call on that ball will be the first call...
Too early to tell how this model will do...
But since it's about $20 higher in cost than a Freeze...I would be a little worried...
But we shall see...
Hope it does well...
--------------------
jls
I would think that if the natural were a sales flop then RG would have held off on putting one out. On the other hand, they could feel it will be fill a hole in their sales strategy.
I guess we really don't know if either ball is or will be a flop unless the they report their sales numbers.
Post by: TheDude on June 15, 2010, 08:19:45 AM
--------------------
Timothy @Juniors Pro-Shops
LaSalle, Quebec-Located inside Pont Mercier Lanes.
Keep them honest!
Ebay store updated very often: http://stores.ebay.com/gumby3170?refid+store
Post by: tburky on June 15, 2010, 08:27:55 AM
quote:quote:
STILL in production!
--------------------
Tyler Jensen
Regional Sales Manager for
Storm Products INC &
Turbo 2n1 Grips
TylerJ@stormbowling.com
Who the hell is this guy posting and acting like he is with Storm? I don't believe that this ball is still in production. I just don't believe it.
--------------------
Trackbowling.com
Mccorveysproshop.com
Track Regional Staff
storm rep out of texas
Post by: Miffy1980 on June 15, 2010, 10:22:04 AM
anyhow, i just heard it from the usual rumor mill. so i just thought i asked u guys here. i would have emailed storm directly but i did that once regarding blems and they never replied.
thanks for all the input guys, appreciate it.
Post by: jls on June 15, 2010, 11:19:54 AM
By sales or by performance...
If you judge the Natural by sales... I would grade it sub par...
If you judge it by performance... I would rate it a birdie...
I really don't believe this ball was release to be a blockbuster in sales...
I believe Storm released it to meet certain conditions...
And it did...
--------------------
jls
Post by: r534me on June 15, 2010, 02:58:00 PM
I would add that it could have met or exceeded Storm's sales target. Unless we are informed of what it is it's all speculation at this point.
Post by: Jorge300 on June 15, 2010, 03:22:38 PM
quote:quote:
If you watch the vid of Jimmy Keeth bowling he isn''''t in the 700 rev rate. The vid of him on youtube against WRW is the reason I say that. 500-700 revs is a lot and his ball reaction being in some from WRW isn''''t that dramatic. He cradles the ball and generates a lot of revs for the time, but no way it is that high.
--------------------
" men lie, women lie, numbers don''''t "
I didn''t write he rolled 700 revs on TV. I wrote he was tested at Kegel and he had 700 plus revs. If you took the time to go to pba dot com you would have found that robert smith even responded to the thread. Do you think Bob Vespi hooked it a lot? Add a couple hundred more revs to the ball and think about what his reaction would have been.
Here''s Maximum Bob using the same ball. Jimmy Keeth had more revs than Robert Smith.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9bnH614taA
Edited on 6/8/2010 9:10 AM
Just a quick sidebar....if the rev rate was captured using CATS, it is incorrect. Just took a lesson with Mike Jasnau in Reno, he mentioned that the CATS system has a flaw, and that is the RPM measurement. It uses the 39 ft (break point) and compares it to the 60ft board (Hitting the pocket). The bigger the difference the larger the rev rate and vice-a-versa. Now Jimmy Keith does have a high rev rate, but it was probably inflated to the 700 number if they used CATS. Jasnau mentioned laughing at the rev rates they gave for the PBA players this year on the telecasts and how high they were.
--------------------
Jorge300
Post by: Z Jellsey on June 15, 2010, 05:13:03 PM
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Post by: r534me on June 15, 2010, 11:13:22 PM
quote:quote:quote:
If you watch the vid of Jimmy Keeth bowling he isn''''''''t in the 700 rev rate. The vid of him on youtube against WRW is the reason I say that. 500-700 revs is a lot and his ball reaction being in some from WRW isn''''''''t that dramatic. He cradles the ball and generates a lot of revs for the time, but no way it is that high.
--------------------
" men lie, women lie, numbers don''''''''t "
I didn''''t write he rolled 700 revs on TV. I wrote he was tested at Kegel and he had 700 plus revs. If you took the time to go to pba dot com you would have found that robert smith even responded to the thread. Do you think Bob Vespi hooked it a lot? Add a couple hundred more revs to the ball and think about what his reaction would have been.
Here''''s Maximum Bob using the same ball. Jimmy Keeth had more revs than Robert Smith.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9bnH614taA
Edited on 6/8/2010 9:10 AM
Just a quick sidebar....if the rev rate was captured using CATS, it is incorrect. Just took a lesson with Mike Jasnau in Reno, he mentioned that the CATS system has a flaw, and that is the RPM measurement. It uses the 39 ft (break point) and compares it to the 60ft board (Hitting the pocket). The bigger the difference the larger the rev rate and vice-a-versa. Now Jimmy Keith does have a high rev rate, but it was probably inflated to the 700 number if they used CATS. Jasnau mentioned laughing at the rev rates they gave for the PBA players this year on the telecasts and how high they were.
--------------------
Jorge300
I don''t know what system they used to measure Jimmy Keeth. The only thing I know for sure is that it was a few years ago because Jimmy Keeth passed away in 2005. The rate was exceeded by someone else and it was recorded at 796 at Kegel. Does anyone knows how Kegel measures rev rates? I see they used it now and I wonder what they used to measure Jimmy Keeth.
Edited on 6/15/2010 11:44 PM
Post by: Dan Belcher on June 16, 2010, 06:58:17 AM
quote:Good point. When I worked with Mike Jasnau, the CATS system measured my rev rate as something like 330-350rpm on average, which is a gross overstatement. I've measured my rev rate on video several times, and it's actually in the 225-250rpm range!
Just a quick sidebar....if the rev rate was captured using CATS, it is incorrect. Just took a lesson with Mike Jasnau in Reno, he mentioned that the CATS system has a flaw, and that is the RPM measurement. It uses the 39 ft (break point) and compares it to the 60ft board (Hitting the pocket). The bigger the difference the larger the rev rate and vice-a-versa. Now Jimmy Keith does have a high rev rate, but it was probably inflated to the 700 number if they used CATS. Jasnau mentioned laughing at the rev rates they gave for the PBA players this year on the telecasts and how high they were.
Post by: tommygn on June 16, 2010, 07:20:29 AM
The Natural was NOT a flop.
--------------------
Tommy Gollick
Storm Regional/Pro Shop staff
Red Crown Pro Shop Harrisburg, PA
stormbowling.com
Post by: jnmprsct on June 19, 2010, 07:40:50 PM
Thank you for contacting Storm.
The Natural is in our 2010 catalog and is still a very popular ball….we do not have any plans of stopping production of this ball at this time.
Thank you,
Mike Sargent
Tech I
Storm Bowling Products
165 S. 800 W.
Brigham City, UT 84302
Tech@StormBowling.com
BOWL UP A STORM!!!!
i have one and love it!
Post by: Rotoguy300 on June 22, 2010, 03:28:34 PM
The Hype core is nothing like the SD73 core- just look at the RG and DIFF numbers. Its more like the core that was in the Illusions than the core that was in the SD73 (even then....).
The Natural and the Grenade are true urethane covers. I can't speak for the other guys, but this is the case with these two.
I can say with 100% certainty that the Natural was not a sales flop. I was one of the staff members that was complaining about needing a urethane for the better part of 2 years prior to the Natural's release and was told that it probably wouldn't sell because the average bowler just wants more and more hook- but within weeks it was acknowledged to me that sales were better than expected, so the ball sold. If it didn't, why would the same company bother to bring out ANOTHER nitchy type ball in the Grenade? They wouldn't, because they aren't in the business of pleasing guys like me, they're in the business of selling bowling balls.
The urethane resurgance is also partially a biproduct in the expansion of sport leagues. The more of those you see, the larger variety of product will sell in your area. I'm not gonna pretend to sell several urethanes a week out of my shop or anything, but we definitely sell enough of them to justify having the product on the market.
Post by: LuckyLefty on June 22, 2010, 08:16:59 PM
I don't believe he quite bowled like that in league. More like 525 to 600 or less. He has a brother who is close to 500 with very conventional form.
A BIG Rev family!
But Jimmy could amp it up....in both revs and speed if he wanted to.
I think he mentioned that regarding his kegel experience.
His ball spun hard like a lot of the power two handers of today but he had something extra.
Interesting thing. He did not own carry in all parts of the pocket! This was of great frustration to him.
A well known coach mentioned that if he could have slightly slowed down both revs and speed his carry would have gone to the ozone! I don't know but it looked like it made sense!
It was fun to be along for the ride and watch the whole show!
REgards,
Luckylefty
--------------------
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.
James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana
Post by: r534me on June 30, 2010, 12:10:29 PM
With that said, it sounds like a sales success. Hence, likely one reason why RG released the Grenade.