BallReviews
Equipment Boards => Storm => Topic started by: TeeP Nade on August 05, 2017, 03:08:01 PM
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Buddy of mine is a big hammer guy. He keeps telling me his equipment is dead no matter how many times we put it through the rejuvenator. he's looking at getting either a daredevil trick, sure lock, or no rules. anybody have MANY games on them how quickly does storm/roto stuff "die"...i know nothing dies like a hammer haha i tell him that all the time! and yes he cleans his equipment regularly, and rejuvenates it. hes just sick of rejuvenating hammer every month lol
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Heard the exact same stories about Storm stuff dying as well. Also saw nearly brand new Sure Lock dude brought into same pro shop I was at yesterday cracked and having to be replaced. I really think like anything else there are good and bad batches by all the makers. Have about 100 games on my Scandal Pearl and reacts like day I bought it. Have like 1000+ (maybe even 1500+) games on my Brunswick Rampage which i have abused and that ball is as good as ever. Still avoiding ball death is yet another reason to throw urethane. Who knows how many games are on the 20 years old Faball Burgundy Hammer I recently got but it still a good ball even on house shot. Some of my urethanes will probably out live me. Still I really think ball death with modern reactives is over blown especially if you never put a dirty ball in your bag.
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Very few people I know say storm stuff dies dumb fast. I hear motiv is good for longevity also
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>Very few people I know say storm stuff dies dumb fast
And personally I don't think so either. I think more than anything talking about certain brands balls dying is simply fear uncertainty and doubt being spread about competitors by people with a vested interest in one brand or another. At least usually seems to be the case. Haven't had any of my hammer stuff long enough to know for sure and I will be the first to complain on here if I start seeing stuff go dead. Still as I say more and more I find myself throwing urethane so might end up trading my reactives before keeping long enough to see. Last Storm I owned was a Storm Shift I hated which used to burn up and roll out constantly and in addition unlike my Rampage it cracked. That said Storm has come a long way in the last decade and personally I think their balls are fine and hell might even pick up a Hy-Road or even better one of their urethanes sometime.
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i'll be the first to admit im a hammer HATER so my opinion on them dieing is bias. i know what u mean though the guys that have a vested interest in 1 brand always seem to bash another company vs say what's so good about their company
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My original Blue Vibe went strong for 7+ years. For me, the Storm balls I've had haven't been the same even after extracting oil. The Blue Vibe was like new each time for months.
I've had no issue with Brunswick/DV8/Radical or Motiv
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i'll be the first to admit im a hammer HATER so my opinion on them dieing is bias. i know what u mean though the guys that have a vested interest in 1 brand always seem to bash another company vs say what's so good about their company
Personally I love Faball. Sometimes Ebonite gets it right but not near as often as Visionary does. Oh how I would love a NIB 15# Ogre Urethane or even a Genesis Judge LE (Faball Black Hammer in all but name).
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My original Blue Vibe went strong for 7+ years. For me, the Storm balls I've had haven't been the same even after extracting oil. The Blue Vibe was like new each time for months.
I've had no issue with Brunswick/DV8/Radical or Motiv
old vibe series was last balls that i can say i liked from hammer
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Ball death is most pronounced in aggressive solids no matter what brand. Death is probably a misnomer, but it is only partly due to oil absorption. A lot of the problem is the formulation of the shell. Many of the most aggressive tend to lane polish very quickly. This has a big impact on reaction. Not sure any brand is worse. Every Roto solid I have owned seemed to die quickly. Also Ebonite solids. Brunswick PK 18 and Activator held up the best, but activator solid not as well as the pearl. I suspect something similar with Hammer. My Cobalt Vibe held up incredibly well.
As for somebody's comment on urethane. I guess I would say you can't kill something that is already dead. Nobody appreciates urethane as a tool more than me, but there are reasons resin replaced urethane overnight, and those reasons are still valid.
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Thanks for explaining avabob, very informative.
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KBS clean... I must investigate this now.
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https://www.kbs-coatings.com/KBS-Klean.html
Charlest, tell us all about it!!
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>Nobody appreciates urethane as a tool more than me, but there are reasons resin replaced urethane overnight, and those reasons are still valid.
I will agree that unless you are 2 handed you aren't going to average 230 more than likely with urethane. But honestly I would rather average 185 and never throw a game under 170 than average 200 but throw 150s occasionally. Consistency and never missing single pin spares are more important to me than stringing strikes but accepting wash outs and splits. Especially since with my style I will never be able to chase the oil with the rev monsters anyway. Old enough now I can accept will never be PBA material but do I ever get a kick out of a nice easy suitcase release getting my Faball where it needs to be and crushing the pins even with a 13mph on the overhead ball speed. To each his own. House hack and proud of it I guess. Lofting over the gutter cap yeah that ain't me.
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I have had issues with EBI stuff dying more than other manufacturers. I have never cleaned Visionary stuff and it still rolls like new. That being said, the absorption rate is slower and makes a difference for sure.
I have not owned a lot of Storm/RG High end pieces long enough to notice the performance issues. Motiv seems to last longer than the other Big companies in my experience.
I had a Phaze II that shined up in 2 games, which is the worse I have experienced with Storm products to date.
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There might be a difference in batches. I have had both Alpha Crux and Phase ll. Crux lane polished quicker and lost its reaction quicker than Phase for me. The other side if the coin is that lane polish isn't always bad. Best example for me was original Virtual Gravity. Much better ball for me after it lane polished. More recently I had a similar experience with Lucid. Going back a few years, Cell, Infinite One, and Theory were just the opposite. They stopped hitting for me after 30-50 games.
Also, I recently had some experience with the wave machines for oil extraction. Used it on Alpha Crux and IQ tour. In both case immediate improvement was very noticeable, but short lived.
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Hammer is by far the worst company with oil absorption, Storm/Roto is in the middle of the pack, Motiv is the best by far. However, one huge factor I've found is use of a Shammy. Doesn't matter which company, all Shammys are the same. Use of a Shammy dramatically reduces oil absorption because it gets it all off the ball unlike conventional or even microfiber towels which really just smear it around. Rejuvenators are also not nearly as effective as a Detox. We did our own internal testing, and all a Rejuvenator does is heat the ball up which heats the oil up so it will leak out. The Detox actually extracts the oil, so a Rejuvenator not reviving a Hammer ball is not surprising in the least.
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Just Hammer and not the other EBI brands? Seems like all of them would share the same characteristics since they're poured in the same plant using the same materials. I'm not disagreeing with you, because that's what I've seen too, but it's kind of weird that Columbia 300, Ebonite, and Track wouldn't/don't have the same problem.
And to add I think the Brunswick family balls falls somewhere between Storm and Motiv for oil absorption. Definitely less than Storm, but more than Motiv. No idea where the 900 Global balls fall on that list.
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Their all poured in same plant? I have no clue. Maybe it has something to do With their coverstocks? Idk maybe it's all in the head
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Their all poured in same plant? I have no clue. Maybe it has something to do With their coverstocks? Idk maybe it's all in the head
Yup. Columbia 300, Ebonite, Hammer, and Track balls are all poured in Hopkinsville, Kentucky. Storm and Roto Grip balls are poured in Brigham City (I think), Utah. Brunswick, DV8, and Radical balls are poured in Reynosa, Mexico (just south of the Texas border). 900 Global and AMF balls are poured in San Antonio, Texas. Visionary and Seismic balls are poured in St. Louis, Missouri. I think that's all of the big/more well-known brands.
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Yeah it's weird. The other EBI brands are on par with Storm/Roto, kind of in the middle, Columbia maybe between Hammer and the rest of the pack. Brunswick is on the upper end close to Motiv, yes. Global seems to fall about the same place most of the brands do in the middle.
Sanded hybrids from everyone seem to be awful though. I used to Detox my stuff after a couple months of use, but since I started using a Shammy, haven't had to Detox anything since. Yeah I go through most balls quick, but there are a lot I keep and use a TON, and no reaction loss. Have to keep the dull stuff dull of course, but I've tried a Detox on one here or there and it "smokes" for about 30 seconds and quits. Nothing to take out.
Just Hammer and not the other EBI brands? Seems like all of them would share the same characteristics since they're poured in the same plant using the same materials. I'm not disagreeing with you, because that's what I've seen too, but it's kind of weird that Columbia 300, Ebonite, and Track wouldn't/don't have the same problem.
And to add I think the Brunswick family balls falls somewhere between Storm and Motiv for oil absorption. Definitely less than Storm, but more than Motiv. No idea where the 900 Global balls fall on that list.
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https://www.kbs-coatings.com/KBS-Klean.html
Charlest, tell us all about it!!
Never heard of it before.
I'd be cautious about using as with all cleaners not specific to bowling.
Simple Green's ads saw similar things ("a concentrated, water-based, biodegradable formula that is an excellent alternative to flammable solvents and hazardous chemicals ..."), yet most bowling ball cleaners are more effective than SG.
What I don't like is paying $10 for shipping an 8 oz. bottle costing $6.95.
I'd like to see the MSDS.
Addendum: I asked KBS to send the MSDS (Safety Data Sheet) sheet and they did. The active 2 ingredients are 1-5% potash lye (Potassium Hydrox1de) and 0.5 - 1.5% 2-Butoxy ethanol ("a colorless liquid with a mild odor. It is used as a solvent for resins, lacquers, varnishes and enamels an dis found in many hard surface cleaning products. It is also used as a gasoline additive.")
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Just Hammer and not the other EBI brands? Seems like all of them would share the same characteristics since they're poured in the same plant using the same materials. I'm not disagreeing with you, because that's what I've seen too, but it's kind of weird that Columbia 300, Ebonite, and Track wouldn't/don't have the same problem.
And to add I think the Brunswick family balls falls somewhere between Storm and Motiv for oil absorption. Definitely less than Storm, but more than Motiv. No idea where the 900 Global balls fall on that list.
I suspect that the different EBI branches use different formulations from potentially different suppliers. I know at one point RG used a different resin supplier than Storm did (RG did not indicate who they were, back then. I know DV8 and Radical use different chemical additives to the same base resins from (so far that I've heard) a single resin supplier, (Bayer)
So while it's possible that many brands can be poured/manufactured in the same plant, their resins can be significantly different. Are they different enough to have different rates of oil absorption and potential rejuvenation (whether by one means or another), sure, it is possible.
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As far as 900 Global covers...
Before the Storm merger, covers were great. A little oil absorption, but not a lot. Then came the psuedo Storm covers and man, something changed.
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I guess the marketing works if you think companies that use the same executives, salesmen, marketing people, administrative assistants, designers, chemists and factory workers for all their brands actually use different suppliers and formulations for their covers.
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I think manufacturers use different amounts and types of resin additives within their own lines. Maybe one supplier, but slightly different additives. Remember, Steve Cooper discovered the first resin additive for the Excalibur more or less by accident. There is still more trial and error than people think, even with the technical advancements the research departments have made over the years.
Having said that, Ibam pretty sure they are all guilty of making the most minute changes in formula, along with a color change and calling it a new shell formulation. Brunswick has been one of the most guilty but they all do it.
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Biggest change I have seen over the years is in pearl covers. Starting with the Green Bolt, and up through the X Factor storm pearl use to really die on me. In recent years I see it much more in solids.
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I think I'd have to agree with that. I used to be a big solid cover guy, now it's shifting towards pearls because for some reason I'm getting a lot more consistency and usability out of them, plus solids have gotten REALLY maintenance heavy now. Usability may be the big thing though, pearls are aggressive enough now to play while solids more often than not are too much at box without super heavy volumes.
Biggest change I have seen over the years is in pearl covers. Starting with the Green Bolt, and up through the X Factor storm pearl use to really die on me. In recent years I see it much more in solids.
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I guess the marketing works if you think companies that use the same executives, salesmen, marketing people, administrative assistants, designers, chemists and factory workers for all their brands actually use different suppliers and formulations for their covers.
Unless you think RG was lying when they publicly stated they were using a different resin supplier than Storm ....
(Most of the RG oilers still die a miserable death; that I cannot deny.)
While I'd agree that many advertising claims fall into the category of propaganda, to say that every one does implies you believe everyone of us might as well lie down in the ground and pull in the earth after us. And I thought I was pessimistic ...
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Absolutely without question like ^^
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Believe whatever make you feel good.
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Their all poured in same plant? I have no clue. Maybe it has something to do With their coverstocks? Idk maybe it's all in the head
Yup. Columbia 300, Ebonite, Hammer, and Track balls are all poured in Hopkinsville, Kentucky. Storm and Roto Grip balls are poured in Brigham City (I think), Utah. Brunswick, DV8, and Radical balls are poured in Reynosa, Mexico (just south of the Texas border). 900 Global and AMF balls are poured in San Antonio, Texas. Visionary and Seismic balls are poured in St. Louis, Missouri. I think that's all of the big/more well-known brands.
And Motiv balls are poured in Muskegon, Michigan.
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And Motiv balls are poured in Muskegon, Michigan.
Haha yeah, for some reason I thought I had that in there. That's the one closest to home too...
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And Motiv balls are poured in Muskegon, Michigan.
Haha yeah, for some reason I thought I had that in there. That's the one closest to home too...
I hear it's really expensive to make balls in this area
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Just threw a 259 farting around in open bowling during lunch just now with my Scandal Pearl with 100+ games on it. This despite the fact I had virtually no surface on it (3000+ grit) and was bowling on pretty heavy THS. I throw a fair number of 600 series but only have about a dozen games over 250 (tend to be king of tap). More of Faball/Visionary guy than EBI but all my Hammer stuff is solid so far. Hammer, Storm, Coke, Pepsi it is simply what you like.
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Ball death is almost irrelevant on a house shot. Probably beneficial if anything since most league bowlers use too much surface, trying to hook the ball
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I am a huge Columbia 300 fan, and have had no issues with the lifespan of the covers. My Antics is still going strong, and my Swerve is a beast. The only issue I have seen with them is they tend to be softer than other brands. The bridge on my Antics and Swerve both cracked. None of my other 16 balls all drilled by the same driller have cracked. I have been throwing both with the cracked bridges and they haven't gotten any worse. The only C300 ball that didn't work for me was an Encounter, but that experience didn't sour me on C300 products.
I am not the biggest fan of Ebonite branded balls with the GB line of covers. GB covered balls have generally been weak for me. I had to take my Warrior down to 500/1500 siaair to get a consistent reaction from it. Otherwise it was extremely squirty. Similarly, I needed to go to 500 siaair on my Ebonite Adrenaline Shot to get a useable reaction. My GB2 MVP was a dud and wound up in the trash despite multiple surface adjustments. I have also noticed GB covers to be very soft and susceptible to damage more than other brands.
My Track stuff has had no problems maintaining reaction.
I don't do anything crazy to maintain them. I simply clean them with Monster ball cleaner immediately after bowling and before putting them back in the bag. Maybe Clean and Dull 3 times per year. Surface refresh with siaair every few months. Nothing more than that.
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They won't crack from being softer, and there's a hardness tolerance. Actually the softer they are, the less likely to crack they'll be, as being softer would make them more flexible. The vast majority of the time, cracking is caused by the core settling, or if you're in a climate that sees 100 degree days in the summer and 10 degree days in the winter, the constant expansion and contraction of all 3 parts can cause a ball to give eventually.
I am a huge Columbia 300 fan, and have had no issues with the lifespan of the covers. My Antics is still going strong, and my Swerve is a beast. The only issue I have seen with them is they tend to be softer than other brands. The bridge on my Antics and Swerve both cracked. None of my other 16 balls all drilled by the same driller have cracked. I have been throwing both with the cracked bridges and they haven't gotten any worse. The only C300 ball that didn't work for me was an Encounter, but that experience didn't sour me on C300 products.
I am not the biggest fan of Ebonite branded balls with the GB line of covers. GB covered balls have generally been weak for me. I had to take my Warrior down to 500/1500 siaair to get a consistent reaction from it. Otherwise it was extremely squirty. Similarly, I needed to go to 500 siaair on my Ebonite Adrenaline Shot to get a useable reaction. My GB2 MVP was a dud and wound up in the trash despite multiple surface adjustments. I have also noticed GB covers to be very soft and susceptible to damage more than other brands.
My Track stuff has had no problems maintaining reaction.
I don't do anything crazy to maintain them. I simply clean them with Monster ball cleaner immediately after bowling and before putting them back in the bag. Maybe Clean and Dull 3 times per year. Surface refresh with siaair every few months. Nothing more than that.