BallReviews
Equipment Boards => Storm => Topic started by: boblane1015 on April 10, 2018, 08:09:41 AM
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Just purchased and looking for drilling suggestions. I'm a speed dominant stroker. Should I go with pin up or pin down.
My stats: 15-16 mph, rev rate 275-300, axis rotation 60-70 degrees, axis tilt 16-20, medium to med-heavy oil house.
Any suggestions highly appreciated. Pro shop guy says go pin down to read the mid-lane and ball will have plenty of energy into pins with good continuation to carry corners.
Update on stats: axis rotation 51-60 and axis tilt is 10 degrees.
Drive will be drilled based off the 4x4x3 pattern.
Will provide another update once it is ready and I have put a few games on it.
I would like to thank everybody for their input!
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Trust your pro shop guy, he's right. Unless you have Belmo revs, these dual drive balls stink when you drill them with too high of a pin or too weak of a pin placement. Pin down about 4-4 1/2" should get the motor revving up a bit sooner. If your speed is really high, 17-18mph up the boards, I may even suggest go very strong with the pin 3 3/4 and no hole.
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Pin down about 4-4 1/2" should get the motor revving up a bit sooner.
This is wrong.
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Pin down about 4-4 1/2" should get the motor revving up a bit sooner.
This is wrong.
How so, what's your recommendation? That was semantics, but I'm curious on your suggestion for Bob. Keep in mind he has 17deg of tilt which is a LOT and 60-70 degrees rotation which is on the high side. Most balls are going to skid very far for him just based on his release.
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Pin down does not get the motor running any sooner than pin up, surface controls the transition from skid to hook, pin up/pin down controls the second transition from hook to roll:
http://news.stormbowling.com/2017/05/10/pin-up-vs-pin-down/
The days of believing a pin down layout will get a ball rolling sooner are over.
And with that, I cannot give Bob a suggestion without knowing what type of ball motion he prefers (slower arcing or quicker transition) and without ever seeing him bowl. Yes, he put some stats out there but that's not enough to give a good enough answer for what is right for him. Bob - fill in some blanks!
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So I guess I should have ended my first post with the first sentence and we could have skipped your no-duh Surface is the #1 factor arguement and master copy & paste skills.
Bob, if your pro shop guy knows how you throw it, I would trust what he has to say if you're dead on set with getting a Storm Drive.
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Pin down doesn't get it rolling sooner, but it does change the shape of the core. 2.57 and the shape of the undrilled core would indicate that the taller you make that core (pin up) the more erratic the ball motion.
Could you combat that with surface? Sure. But you may get to the place where you use too much surface to really make the ball fit.
That said, all of the pin down Timelesses I've seen that look good are pin down. Haven't seen much of the Drive, but I'd assume the same.
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So I guess I should have ended my first post with the first sentence and we could have skipped your no-duh Surface is the #1 factor arguement and master copy & paste skills.
Bob, if your pro shop guy knows how you throw it, I would trust what he has to say if you're dead on set with getting a Storm Drive.
Yes. I agree with all of this except I still need work on mastering copy and paste. I am getting there though with the help of a local certified coach. I will be up there with the best of them soon enough....
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My beef w/ Leftywall's response was this. The #1 rule of working in a pro shop is, when you're explaining things to someone with little tech knowledge you have to speak in terms that they can understand when they see it. It's clear that Bob doesn't have a ton of expertise or he wouldn't be asking us, that's why I was using semantics in replaying to him with the "motor revving up sooner" speak. I worked in a pro shop from 2001-2008 and drilled enough balls to give one to everyone in a medium size city in America, but I wasn't going to answer Bob's question in a way just to prove "how smart I am". It's easier to put it in laymens terms for a novice so they can associate with their reaction rather than serving them a plate full of copypasta from a Storm drilling sheet.
You can help or you can argue, but if all you're going to do is argue semantics, it doesn't help the original question. The majority of posts in these forums are guys arguing semantics and regurgitating anything that an expert has told them. Anything to let people know "hey I'm just a little bit smarter than you" LOL
Anyone that has thrown a Timeless or Drive pin up vs pin down can tell you Pin up layouts are going to go 55 feet, wiggling like a booty in a twerk video with Bob's 275-300 rev rate, 60-70 deg rotation and 17 deg of tilt.
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My beef w/ Leftywall's response was this. The #1 rule of working in a pro shop is, when you're explaining things to someone with little tech knowledge you have to speak in terms that they can understand when they see it. It's clear that Bob doesn't have a ton of expertise or he wouldn't be asking us, that's why I was using semantics in replaying to him with the "motor revving up sooner" speak. I worked in a pro shop from 2001-2008 and drilled enough balls to give one to everyone in a medium size city in America, but I wasn't going to answer Bob's question in a way just to prove "how smart I am". It's easier to put it in laymens terms for a novice so they can associate with their reaction rather than serving them a plate full of copypasta from a Storm drilling sheet.
You can help or you can argue, but if all you're going to do is argue semantics, it doesn't help the original question. The majority of posts in these forums are guys arguing semantics and regurgitating anything that an expert has told them. Anything to let people know "hey I'm just a little bit smarter than you" LOL
Anyone that has thrown a Timeless or Drive pin up vs pin down can tell you Pin up layouts are going to go 55 feet, wiggling like a booty in a twerk video with Bob's 275-300 rev rate, 60-70 deg rotation and 17 deg of tilt.
you win the interwebs for the day
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My problem is that your response is not semantics and that you are not presenting the characteristics of ball motion from pin up/pin down layouts accurately. You are now deflecting the fact that you were flat out wrong by calling it semantics. Your defense is akin to "fake news".
For the record, I am not trying to be smarter than you. I am just sick of seeing people being told a pin down layout is going to get "the motor revving sooner" or some derivation of that. I know through my own experience on the lanes as well as reading about it in various technical articles that this simply is not true. It has taken a long time for people to catch up to understand this and we need to stop perpetuating the fallacy. PLEASE STOP!!! EVEN IF IT'S SEMANTICS!!!!
Thanks.
PS I am on YouTube looking for pin up Timeless's twerking down the lane. I will report back.
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If we're getting technical, it does get the "motor revving sooner" because it's lowering the RG.
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If we're getting technical, it does get the "motor revving sooner" because it's lowering the RG.
SEMANTICS!!!
Seriously though and without trolling, you are correct. I will concede this point on a technical basis. HOWEVER, the lowering of the RG is so minute it is not material to ball motion. In addition, a pin down ball will have a lower differential and potential for flare. With less flare and smaller/closer rings of the "bow-tie", less fresh surface is hitting the lanes and the ball therefore skids a little bit longer - albeit an immaterial amount. What RG giveth, less flare taketh away...
I still stand by my original posts until someone gets some BluePrint modeling up in here!!!
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http://radicalbowling.com/uploads/downloads/Beyond_Ridiculous_Symmetric_Drilling_Instructions.pdf
the only difference in length with maximun hit and length with control (love marketing) is pin up or pin down. the rg of the pap is exactly the same
http://radicalbowling.com/uploads/downloads/Intel_Symmetric_Drilling_Instructions_2018.pdf
the only difference in length and flip and length and arc (have i told you about my love of marketing?) is pin up or pin down . the pin up has a lower rg of the pap
http://radicalbowling.com/uploads/downloads/Cyclops_Pearl_Symmetric_Drilling_Instructions.pdf
here the pin down is slightly lowe in the rg of the pap
From the above information I think we can safely assume it is a crapshoot if the rg is lower or higher if the pin is up or down and in all the above cases the difference would be miniscule and no way the naked eye could see the difference in ball motion because of the difference in the rg
rather than the difference in the int diff and total diffs
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...still no other suggestions for Bob on his very specific stat driven question.
C'mon gurus, we want answers!
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Before I would make a competent suggestion - I would ask if you know your PAP and if so the actual layout(s) used on ball(s) that work well for you now or in the past in similar lane conditions.
Also - do you want to see the ball roll from the midlane smoothly to the pocket or more so "bounce off the spot" a bit harder and sharper once it gets down the lane?
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Probably not the answer you're looking for, but...
As the owner of a Drive, my recommendation is to trade it in for a different ball.
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I had great success with Virtual Gravity drilled with pin above and right of ring finger.
That ball had a very continuous sharp entry angle.
Looking at the Drive drilling specs I would lean toward the 4x4x1 or 4x4x2 layouts.
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Wasn't the surface on the VG much stronger than the Drive? The 2 balls are totally different. One is low RG, medium high diff and has strong assymetry. The other has a high RG medium high diff symmetrical. They're totally different. The 4*4*1 will probably roll like crap for your release. I'd probably go 4*4*3
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Wasn't the surface on the VG much stronger than the Drive? The 2 balls are totally different. One is low RG, medium high diff and has strong assymetry. The other has a high RG medium high diff symmetrical. They're totally different. The 4*4*1 will probably roll like crap for your release. I'd probably go 4*4*3
I agree in the sense that the Drive is completely different from the Virtual Gravity. The Drive core seems to really retain axis rotation and I'd be hesitant to recommend it with your tilt and rotation being on the high side.
I'm not gonna throw out a layout, but if you're set and already purchased the Drive I'd say drill it stronger
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After six games, here is what I have to report.
Ball needs revs to work as advertised. Hang in the ball, ot come over the top results in little movement downlane.
Proper release and this ball revs up nice, reads the midlane, then just crushes the pocket. Love watching it just drive thru the pins and split the 8-9 and nothing left on the pin deck!!
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How did you end up laying it out?
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4x4x3 with pin just below fingers due to my PAP.