Post by: Atochabsh on January 28, 2008, 04:23:47 PM
Storm/ Roto seminar was in town to tutor the Gravity and Cell and only 8 people signed up and showed up for the seminar.
I see PBA guys using it on TV, but it doesn't seem to transmit to any sales locally.
Erin
Post by: River700 on January 29, 2008, 12:28:33 AM
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If your going to bowl...bowl for fun or go home
Post by: River700 on January 29, 2008, 12:48:11 AM
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If your going to bowl...bowl for fun or go home
Post by: agroves on January 29, 2008, 01:10:11 AM
Andrew
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FUFU
Post by: nd300 on January 29, 2008, 02:46:20 AM
And before the usual replies of too much ball for not enough oil come out,both bowlers that bought them are consistently averaging 200 plus.One is the third highest average on the junior traveling team from this house,and the adult bowler has several 300's,one 800,countless 700's and averages 217 currently.
--------------------
Chris
Lane#1--nothing else hits like 'em.
Post by: Dan Belcher on January 29, 2008, 06:07:56 AM
Storm/Roto does OK around me. I've seen a good bit of Roto stuff moving lately since a couple good bowlers in my leagues are throwing it. (I know of about 5 or 6 people in one league already throwing the Pluto) Otherwise, I see a few older Storm balls, and a handful of the newer gear (a couple Spit Fires, a Secret Agent or two, a couple Shifts, an Attitude Shift or two).
I think the best way to get the equipment to move might be to just start really backing it hard if you think it's quality equipment. Explain why it's good, how it's different from the competition, etc.
Post by: tdub36tjt on January 29, 2008, 06:22:06 AM
Its not coverstock death as far as I know, because I have experienced that before with other equipment. After a hot water bath, I have never had a ball that was still "dead". For example, my Domination is like a hockey puck now. When I originally bought that ball it was the strongest backend ball I had ever thrown. Now if anything all it does is slide down the lane and never reacts. My Agent was about the same thing except that ball will still hook a little.
I have given them a hot water bath and taken them into my pro-shop and brought them back to stock surface which didn't help. The only Storm ball I still own and like is my Spitfire, which has consistently been a good ball for me. All I used to buy was Storm because I fell in love with their reactions, but now I don't even consider Storm when going to buy a new ball. If I could ever find the reasoning behind this I might consider another Storm ball, but nothing I try seems to work. I might consider a sanded Storm ball, however, I feel that is not their strongest equipment and they make better skip/flip equipment than anything else.
Post by: thirtyclean on January 29, 2008, 06:42:39 AM
Pluto is a great ball for the price, which I believe fits perfectly between the Neptune and the Staurn. The Cell I have not rolled yet, but cant wait to
throw it. We have been selling mostly Hammer Bites though.
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Thirtyclean (Well maybe 29, or 28, most of
the times !)
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on January 29, 2008, 06:43:08 AM
quote:
I am not trying to knock Storm, I just can't seem to justify buying Storm anymore. I don't know why, but with most of the Storm balls I have owned I had a great reaction for about the first month, until the polish would wear off. Once the polish wore off I could never get the same reaction from their equipment ever again. Even with taking it to the pro-shop and bring the surface back to stock.
This I don't get because I probably have the same coverstocks you have tried and I haven't have a ball lose a reaction that noticeably.
quote:
The couple of Shifts(that I personally know of) that were sold in the pro shop where I bowl didn't go over so well. Both of them said the same thing.Straight ball,not much back end even with dulling down and/or stronger drillings.One of them is also being returned as a warranty item for cracking all the way around the middle finger within 3 games of the initial drilling.
And before the usual replies of too much ball for not enough oil come out,both bowlers that bought them are consistently averaging 200 plus.One is the third highest average on the junior traveling team from this house,and the adult bowler has several 300's,one 800,countless 700's and averages 217 currently.
Hmm, I am probably not as good as those guys but I can tell you the Shift is not by any stretch a "straight ball with not much back end". I own one and it is pretty angular but smooth. In fact I have to try to throw it harder and straighter than usual because the ball is going to do most of the work anyway.
quote:
From what I've seen, the Shift is a pretty drill-sensitive ball. I've seen a couple that hit like marshmallows, and I've seen a couple that were just explosive on the backend and beat the snot out of the pins.
We just used the same drilling as the drill sheet recommended for house shots. Definitely the hardest hitting ball I have...
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Tom Cruise has officially reached Michael Jackson status.
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on January 29, 2008, 06:45:26 AM
quote:
We have a Shift that is heavily discounted, but does not sell.
This confuses me because this ball is extremely wicked.
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Tom Cruise has officially reached Michael Jackson status.
Post by: Monster Pike on January 29, 2008, 07:03:01 AM
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"The last time I saw a face like yours, it had a hook in it's mouth."
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on January 29, 2008, 07:13:08 AM
quote:
I have to agree w/Fluff. My Shift is wicked also, lol. I just bought a 2nd one because I moved down to 15#s. I love the Shift & want to have a couple more NIB before they discontinue them. But, I want to get the Gravity first & see where that fits w/my Attitude, Special & Shifts.
What I have noticed with the Shift is just find dry and it hooks pretty hard and continuously off of it. Not really flippy but definitely hard left. Not sure how this is a straight ball...
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Tom Cruise has officially reached Michael Jackson status.
Post by: Dan Belcher on January 29, 2008, 07:18:01 AM
quote:Curious, but is that only on polished equipment? My Special Agent still hooks just as much as the day I got it. I've only done one oil extraction on it a few months ago, and I have only done a couple light resurfacings to get some fresh surface on it. (I can't really comment on my Spit Fire since it's such a condition-specific ball for me that it doesn't have many games on it. I need a shorter pattern with some friction for that ball to really shine, but I haven't seen that in months now!!)
I am not trying to knock Storm, I just can't seem to justify buying Storm anymore. I don't know why, but with most of the Storm balls I have owned I had a great reaction for about the first month, until the polish would wear off. Once the polish wore off I could never get the same reaction from their equipment ever again. Even with taking it to the pro-shop and bring the surface back to stock.
Post by: Bigmike on January 29, 2008, 07:42:16 AM
quote:
I have a whole wall of storm equipment that has not sold. Including the Storm Gravity Shift that I have listed drilled at under $200. What's the problem? Storm is not selling and I'm not sure why. I have brought in various pieces and they sit there gathering dust.
Storm/ Roto seminar was in town to tutor the Gravity and Cell and only 8 people signed up and showed up for the seminar.
I see PBA guys using it on TV, but it doesn't seem to transmit to any sales locally.
Erin
Right now in the store that I work P/T in, Eboumbiammerack is reigning supreme. Mainly the Spider balls. We seem to sell more Widow Bites and Pearls than anything else. We have started to stock some of the Storm/Roto line, but having a owner who is a Columbia staffer and another owner who works for Lanemasters, stacks the deck against other companies.
We have moved a couple of Cell's and some of the lower priced Storm balls like the Jolt particle and Tropical Storms. The center leaves them hooking which keeps the "housers" away from the hook-in-a-box newer stuff i.e high end products. Right now by sales, the worst balls on our shelves are anything from Brunswick. We have not sold a single Blast Zone or Pearl Fury and can not give away the regular Fury priced at $125 drilled out the door. We have sold one Twisted and one Sidewinder and people are not even looking at the Target Zones anymore.
I feel Storm makes the most diverse line in the industry, but you can only tell customers so much before they gravitate towards a "spider" ball.
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Mike Craig-Columbus, OH
Post by: northface28 on January 29, 2008, 08:09:03 AM
quote:quote:
I have a whole wall of storm equipment that has not sold. Including the Storm Gravity Shift that I have listed drilled at under $200. What's the problem? Storm is not selling and I'm not sure why. I have brought in various pieces and they sit there gathering dust.
Storm/ Roto seminar was in town to tutor the Gravity and Cell and only 8 people signed up and showed up for the seminar.
I see PBA guys using it on TV, but it doesn't seem to transmit to any sales locally.
Erin
Right now in the store that I work P/T in, Eboumbiammerack is reigning supreme. Mainly the Spider balls. We seem to sell more Widow Bites and Pearls than anything else. We have started to stock some of the Storm/Roto line, but having a owner who is a Columbia staffer and another owner who works for Lanemasters, stacks the deck against other companies.
We have moved a couple of Cell's and some of the lower priced Storm balls like the Jolt particle and Tropical Storms. The center leaves them hooking which keeps the "housers" away from the hook-in-a-box newer stuff i.e high end products. Right now by sales, the worst balls on our shelves are anything from Brunswick. We have not sold a single Blast Zone or Pearl Fury and can not give away the regular Fury priced at $125 drilled out the door. We have sold one Twisted and one Sidewinder and people are not even looking at the Target Zones anymore.
I feel Storm makes the most diverse line in the industry, but you can only tell customers so much before they gravitate towards a "spider" ball.
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Mike Craig-Columbus, OH
Take $100 off that Fury and I will buy it. (sarcasm)
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Mea Culpa
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on January 29, 2008, 08:09:25 AM
quote:
I feel Storm makes the most diverse line in the industry, but you can only tell customers so much before they gravitate towards a "spider" ball.
Hehe, it is a cool logo.
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Tom Cruise has officially reached Michael Jackson status.
Post by: Monster Pike on January 29, 2008, 08:47:25 AM
quote:quote:
I feel Storm makes the most diverse line in the industry, but you can only tell customers so much before they gravitate towards a "spider" ball.
Hehe, it is a cool logo.
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Tom Cruise has officially reached Michael Jackson status.
Yeah, I think the guy who thought of that line for them has probably been promoted big time. If not, he ought to be.
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"The last time I saw a face like yours, it had a hook in it's mouth."
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on January 29, 2008, 09:07:38 AM
If the person in the shop tells the bowler it's a must have ball, then guess what, it's a must have ball! Right now, I hear ignorant bowlers saying, "Alls Storm balls do is skid and flip" but they have not owned a Storm ball since who knows when or they bought one ball and of course they bought one that skid/flips like a T-Road Pearl or Domination.
If a consumer is comparing the price, all of the hot balls cost the same, regardless if you want an Attitude, Inferno/Fury, Momentum, NV series or a Widow. So now that a consumer knows they are looking to spend $200 the only thing they have to go on is an experienced pro shop suggestion or what they have seen everyone hitting with at league. Unfortunately, bowlers think they throw it like someone else, spend $200 and find out they have a dud because they don't throw it like "Hooking Henry" who covers boards without trying.
Consumers, let your driller get you in the right ball, they are way to expensive to think that the reading you did is enough to make the right purchase. It might be a Big B, an Ebo or Flying S, you might be surprised how that ball you thought was not for you works.
Post by: northface28 on January 29, 2008, 09:10:28 AM
quote:
To all the pro shop guys and consumers reading this post...
If the person in the shop tells the bowler it's a must have ball, then guess what, it's a must have ball! Right now, I hear ignorant bowlers saying, "Alls Storm balls do is skid and flip" but they have not owned a Storm ball since who knows when or they bought one ball and of course they bought one that skid/flips like a T-Road Pearl or Domination.
If a consumer is comparing the price, all of the hot balls cost the same, regardless if you want an Attitude, Inferno/Fury, Momentum, NV series or a Widow. So now that a consumer knows they are looking to spend $200 the only thing they have to go on is an experienced pro shop suggestion or what they have seen everyone hitting with at league. Unfortunately, bowlers think they throw it like someone else, spend $200 and find out they have a dud because they don't throw it like "Hooking Henry" who covers boards without trying.
Consumers, let your driller get you in the right ball, they are way to expensive to think that the reading you did is enough to make the right purchase. It might be a Big B, an Ebo or Flying S, you might be surprised how that ball you thought was not for you works.
What does "Hooking Henry" throw?
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Mea Culpa
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on January 29, 2008, 09:15:47 AM
quote:
Yeah, I think the guy who thought of that line for them has probably been promoted big time. If not, he ought to be.
Of course, it is about performance but each company has balls that perform... So really it comes down to word of mouth or what the pro shop is going to talk you into getting I guess?
If you look in that mid performance range, you have Fire Line which they have been revamping and then the Thunder Line which has some pretty plain looking equipment with underrated value and performance. Maybe it is a marketing thing? For example, Storm never had much on their site about the Thunderstruck if anything. Maybe an occasional mention in their news. Kind of a waste for such a good ball...
Then I read stuff on here about people's Special Agents and Shifts not hooking (not sure how this is humanly possible), so I am not sure what is going on exactly. Many people agree that the Special Agent is a great ball but occasionally that thread would pop up. Reading that the Shift doesn't have much backend is kind of a confusing one to me because when I threw it I thought it was a monster. I keep saying wow after I throw it and I have to show people because it is that sweet.
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Tom Cruise has officially reached Michael Jackson status.
Post by: CHawk15 on January 29, 2008, 10:23:26 AM
Post by: pop_1 on January 29, 2008, 10:28:17 AM
I haven't thrown a Storm ball recently except for the T-Road Pearl. But it seemed good to me.
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on January 29, 2008, 11:00:52 AM
Bowlers when you walk into a shop and say "MAKE IT HOOK!", prepare for over/under. Layouts need to match what you like to do versus what you want it to do. Most of the time, we all want to play the track. Throw in one highly aggressive ball that forces us from our comfort zone and the over/under starts. Mostly because most bowlers don't play in the oil that well. I understand though, we all want to throw the hot ball or that ball our favorite pro tosses on Sunday.
To funny this topic came up as I was just talking to someone the other day about this very subject. Number 1, factory polish is some serious stuff. I've had some PBA exempt players tell me they scuff every ball then polish it because they go to long out of the box. (Not a Storm staffer either) Number 2, to much surface is a bad thing too! When you sand a ball, it wants to read earlier and give you no bang for your buck down the lane. This is the one I ofter see people mess up with the most. They blast the cover and then expect the ball to hook down the lane, "OOPS" it lost it energy already so it cannot hook.
If every ball looked the same from the color to the marking, we would not be able to tell a difference to say this brand does or does not perform.
Post by: northface28 on January 29, 2008, 11:18:16 AM
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Mea Culpa
Post by: JMORRIS on January 29, 2008, 11:20:16 AM
Post by: n00dlejester on January 29, 2008, 11:40:14 AM
Post by: mrbowlingnut on January 29, 2008, 11:46:24 AM
These guys believe in bowler loyalty and prove it, by being innovators in the bowling business with the rewards program and a onsight training center.
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on January 29, 2008, 11:51:38 AM
quote:
It's mostly T-Road Solids and Pearls selling around here. All the other Storm's have been dead.
I am trying to think what I would think as a customer... The Jolts are kind of eyesores but I don't know how much that influences sales. I would think a little since it is more of a low end ball. The Tropicals are really nice as a gateway drug but where to go from there? Probably try a Thunder Line or Jolt? Have to emphasize how good that Thunder Line is.
The original Agent is a really good ball, I don't know why that one wouldn't be selling unless because of the fact that there are all these other balls that have come out since. Maybe update the Agent with R2S pearl? I would have done this instead of releasing the Secret.
Why the Shift isn't flying off of shelves that I can't understand. The only personal feedback I can give on that is that I was kind of assuming I wouldn't be able to control it until I actually got to try one in the Open House. Once I saw how smooth it was, I wanted one and ended up buying one later on.
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Tom Cruise has officially reached Michael Jackson status.
Post by: KR300 on January 29, 2008, 11:53:08 AM
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If you blame the lane conditions for your bad scores, then you had better thank them for your good ones!!
Post by: northface28 on January 29, 2008, 12:01:44 PM
quote:
I agree with Mr. Straight Ball, The biggest misconception today with the "average to above average" bowler is that dull hooks and shiny goes straight. Not enough pro shop operators seem to be telling them that it is all about where it hooks, not how much. I see so many guys buy an aggressive ball (i.e Special Agent or T-Road solid), leave it box or scuff it more and then compain the ball sucks because it didn't snap 15 boards on the back end. And when I try to explain it to them, they look at me like I have 3 heads! A little education would go a long way.
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If you blame the lane conditions for your bad scores, then you had better thank them for your good ones!!
I concur, that stigma of dull=hook and shiny=straight will take years to vanish. Which takes me to another "myth" if you will, low pin equals hook and high pin equals length. There was a article in BJI a few months ago covering this. People get super hookers put the pin low accompanied with a low hole then wonder why they see no backend!!! The ball either pooped out or went too long. (lower pins take longer to transition, resulting in length) Either way they the bring the ball to newspaper grit and burn the lane down.
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Mea Culpa
Post by: Hamburglar on January 29, 2008, 06:03:11 PM
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That which doesn't kill you will only make you stronger, that which doesn't make you stronger is a waste of time!
Post by: charlest on January 29, 2008, 06:17:45 PM
If you leave out or do not pay attention to any one factor, throw the whole equation out of the window and your scores.
I remain amazed at how many people ignore one or more of the factors in that equation. Live and learn or remain stupid. Ignorance is bliss.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: tburky on January 29, 2008, 08:57:12 PM
quote:
results = ball + oil + lane + bowler + drill + surface.
If you leave out or do not pay attention to any one factor, throw the whole equation out of the window and your scores.
I remain amazed at how many people ignore one or more of the factors in that equation. Live and learn or remain stupid. Ignorance is bliss.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
One thing I do like is storm pearls especially scuffed. Do i need to say anymore?
Post by: scotts33 on January 29, 2008, 09:19:54 PM
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Scott
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on January 30, 2008, 07:11:05 AM
quote:
I also have a Special Agent. I would have to say that was the biggest waste of money since I bought the Atomic Charge.
How is the Special Agent a waste of money? Best sport condition ball I own really... Not to mention an oily house shot. Just adjust surface, bam.
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Tom Cruise has officially reached Michael Jackson status.
Edited on 1/30/2008 9:43 AM
Post by: Mr Straight Ball on January 30, 2008, 07:50:28 AM
results = ball + oil + lane + bowler + drill + surface
If you have a Special Agent or Atomic Charge that was a bust, I would definitely say a piece of the above equation is missing.
Oh yea, EVERY NEW BALL IS NOT FOR EVERY BOWLER...
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40 Boards & A Ball
Is your ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
WWW.40BOARDS.COM
...Why doesn't my ball h
k?
Post by: CHawk15 on January 31, 2008, 12:11:54 PM
quote:
No ball company puts their eggs into catering to the PBA guys exclusively. Every company has made plenty of "Joe Bowler" friendly balls. What I have seen from to many pro shops is "cookie cutter" layouts. That's when you send everyone out the door with your trademark layout...stacked x stacked! LMAO
I agree with you on that. Personally, I use mostly 4.5 to 5.5 inch layouts with the MB or pseudo MB under the thumb so that I can better control the breakpoint with hand position. I tried stacking a ball once, let's just say that it didn't work out too well.
quote:
Bowlers when you walk into a shop and say "MAKE IT HOOK!", prepare for over/under. Layouts need to match what you like to do versus what you want it to do. Most of the time, we all want to play the track. Throw in one highly aggressive ball that forces us from our comfort zone and the over/under starts. Mostly because most bowlers don't play in the oil that well. I understand though, we all want to throw the hot ball or that ball our favorite pro tosses on Sunday.
Again, I agree with what you're saying, but I've owned several Storm bowling balls with the original Reactor cover with tamer layouts that were over/under, even with more end over end roll. I probably should've tried taking the surface down a little bit and polishing it back up, but I didn't know about that trick at the time. R2S is much better in this regard with the T-Road Pearl, I just needed a little extra polish to get it down the lane a bit further. (Oil shortage in Tucson, I guess.) Right now, I use mostly a Rival if I need more midlane roll and an Illusion if I need the ball to go a little longer. Both balls roll really well for me.
quote:
To funny this topic came up as I was just talking to someone the other day about this very subject. Number 1, factory polish is some serious stuff. I've had some PBA exempt players tell me they scuff every ball then polish it because they go to long out of the box. (Not a Storm staffer either) Number 2, to much surface is a bad thing too! When you sand a ball, it wants to read earlier and give you no bang for your buck down the lane. This is the one I ofter see people mess up with the most. They blast the cover and then expect the ball to hook down the lane, "OOPS" it lost it energy already so it cannot hook.
That doesn't surprise me that the pros do that to smooth it out a little bit, especially when the backends are flying. I see the situation alot here in Tucson where they scuff a ball they really need to polish. Then they complain about how much "oil" is on the lanes when they see other bowlers with polished equipment playing 3rd arrow or deeper. It's kind of funny and sad at the same time.
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on January 31, 2008, 12:26:17 PM
quote:
I don't know why they are not selling
Well, I don't think they are NOT SELLING per se, because I still see new storm balls rolling all the time. I think they may not be selling in some areas which is why the original people were asking. I don't know if two or three people represent the entire market but I hope not. Ever see those "what's hot in your area" threads? It's kind of all over the place.
I don't think it is a price thing because their prices match up to the other big companies...
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Tom Cruise has officially reached Michael Jackson status.
Post by: Spider Ball Bowler on January 31, 2008, 12:38:57 PM
However it would not move more than 2-3 boards, would not carry even if I got there. I took the surface down to 4000 grit, and it started to move a little more, but not even close to what I was looking for.
I went and took a lesson with one of the top coaches in our area last year and she laughed and said that is the worst ball reaction she had ever seen.
Once again I attribute this to being an x-out and having something wrong with it.
The only Storm ball I have ever thrown that I really liked was the Tropical Storm. For the price you can not go wrong. It had nice length and nice back end to it, and it only cost $100.
If I ever buy a new storm I am going to sick to the midline.
I have noticed besides for the Agent line and T-Roads no one in my area is throwing anything else by storm. Oh well.
I am sure here in one of their next ball releases will be the biggest thing on the market.
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Formerly SGC300
"Never get into a pissing match with a skunk, cuz he'll piss all over you and like it."-Keyshawn Johnson on Terrell Owens
Post by: mainzer on January 31, 2008, 12:41:47 PM
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Mainzerpower
Post by: Hamburglar on January 31, 2008, 12:48:52 PM
quote:
Charlest...hilarious...
results = ball + oil + lane + bowler + drill + surface
If you have a Special Agent or Atomic Charge that was a bust, I would definitely say a piece of the above equation is missing.
Oh yea, EVERY NEW BALL IS NOT FOR EVERY BOWLER...
--------------------
40 Boards & A Ball
Is your ball ready to cross 40 Boards?
WWW.40BOARDS.COM
...Why doesn't my ball h
Yeh, I guess you're right. I just didn't match up with those two balls in spite of trying both on several different oil conditions with MANY different suface changes. The guys at Storm were very helpful in offering lots suggestions on what to try, as was my local Pro Shop including the time spent making these surface adjustments. But in the end, nothing worked with either of those two balls...so I guess it was me. I left the Atomic Charge on the rack at my center and gave away the Special Agent to a younger bowler in one of my leagues.
So, yeh, for me both balls were a waste of my money...
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That which doesn't kill you will only make you stronger, that which doesn't make you stronger is a waste of time!
Edited on 1/31/2008 1:52 PM
Post by: Rileybowler on January 31, 2008, 12:56:48 PM
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Carl
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on January 31, 2008, 01:52:33 PM
quote:
There are going to be times when a ball just does not work for an individual that may be the greatest ball ever to another bowler.
A lot of times it is also someone buying a high end ball and getting it set up wrong or using it on the wrong lane condition for their style. I bet the mid range stuff is the best bet to try to get in the hands of the people. Maybe they aren't familiar with what to expect from the current Storm stuff. The open house definitely sold me on two different balls that became must haves after I threw them. I also got to throw them with different layouts to compare.
Some of this stuff really confuses me... For instance, the Shift being "drill sensitive" or whatever the term was. All I did was get mine laid out similar to the way the pamphlet said, pin buffer of whatever distance, pin at this distance, put MB here. The thing has an unholy move. Definitely not a "no backend" move... I am curious if someone knows their PAP, what type of oil they are on and how to find the dry, how you can make this ball have no backend? Maybe it is a speed vs. revs thing? But again, this would be communicated to the driller hopefully?
I don't know, I look at the Black Widow and that one is a high performance with asymmetric core, right? Those seem to sell. I think it's word of mouth or copying what someone else is using.
The current Storm line is definitely better than last year's in my opinion... A tweak here and there and I don't know what else you would need to offer considering you also have the whole Roto Grip line.
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Tom Cruise has officially reached Michael Jackson status.
Post by: CaliBowler300 on January 31, 2008, 03:56:36 PM
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Is it cheating if you don't get caught?
Post by: Airplay on January 31, 2008, 04:20:31 PM
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Bowl to win Baby