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Author Topic: Forbidden BR Question  (Read 1500 times)

Tony Banks

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Forbidden BR Question
« on: April 19, 2006, 03:09:59 AM »
I just purchased a Track Animal from someone in awesome condition, but I can't seem to locate the cg. I know this has already been discussed at length, and some people here probably got their feelings hurt, but that was before I joined the BR forum. So here it goes. Does cg matter, or is the position of the mass bias much more important?
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DanH78

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Re: Forbidden BR Question
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2006, 11:12:34 AM »
Yes
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LuckyLefty

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Re: Forbidden BR Question
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2006, 11:13:54 AM »
On mass bias balls layout only using mass bias.

Cg is only needed to help figure out ending specs and where to place weighthole.

On non mass bias balls...I'll just say there is a lot of debate on this issue.

REgards,

Luckylefty
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clintdaley

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Re: Forbidden BR Question
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2006, 11:16:23 AM »
Layout using the pin and mass bias...the cg will determine if there is an extra hole needed, but does not have much, if any influence beyond that.

Clint
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charlest

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Re: Forbidden BR Question
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2006, 01:49:16 PM »
When the mass bias differential is greater than .008", use the marked or measured MB; otherwise use the CG.
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Slopsurprise

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Re: Forbidden BR Question
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2006, 04:57:36 PM »
Got a question, if the mass bias and pin are the factors, what if you have a ball with the CG in a weird location like, kicked way left. What if you put the pin and MB where you want them and the CG is on the negative side? Will this create and adverse reaction or, will it be the same as if the CG was on the positive side?
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shelley

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Re: Forbidden BR Question
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2006, 05:04:26 PM »
quote:
Got a question, if the mass bias and pin are the factors, what if you have a ball with the CG in a weird location like, kicked way left. What if you put the pin and MB where you want them and the CG is on the negative side? Will this create and adverse reaction or, will it be the same as if the CG was on the positive side?


Depends on who you believe.  From a ball path perspective, I believe the Brunswick videos from last year indicate that there's no difference (note that they use a non-MB ball in their tests).  From a hitting power at the pins perspective, there's a lot of difference (I believe this is what Lane 1 was emphasizing).  A lot of people mentioned at the time that the ball with negative side weight took a significantly different path through the pins than the one with 3oz of positive side weight.

It's not entirely true that you can disregard the CG when drilling a ball with a strong (enough) MB.  While it may not play a role in ball reaction, it can easily eliminate or promote certain types of drillings.  A ball with a 5" pin might not be able to be drilled with the MB on the VAL.  A ball with a 0" pin may not be able to be drilled with a very short pin-PAP distance.

So yes, there may be a difference in hit, but minimal, if any, difference in ball path.  I believe that there were tests (not necessarily public) that drilled several MB balls will the same pin-PAP and MB-PAP measurements but with the CG shifted varying amounts from left to right of the pin/MB line and the results indicated that there was very little difference in ball reaction.

SH
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Strapper_Squared

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Re: Forbidden BR Question
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2006, 05:16:43 PM »
quote:
Got a question, if the mass bias and pin are the factors, what if you have a ball with the CG in a weird location like, kicked way left. What if you put the pin and MB where you want them and the CG is on the negative side? Will this create and adverse reaction or, will it be the same as if the CG was on the positive side?


On equipment with premarked mass biases, cg is irrelevant with regards to reaction.  The only effect cg has (unless you have an incredibly high rev rate) is determination of whether a weight hole (or deepening the finger/thumb holes) is required to make the ball legal (within USBC static weight requirements).  The weight hole position, size, and depth itself does have an effect on reaction.  In my opinion and experience with my own and customers equipment, cg position has no effect whatsoever on reaction.

S^2
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Slopsurprise

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Re: Forbidden BR Question
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2006, 08:08:52 PM »
Now, on symetrical balls CG makes a huge difference right?
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shelley

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Re: Forbidden BR Question
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2006, 10:53:58 PM »
quote:
Now, on symetrical balls CG makes a huge difference right?


No, it influences the requirement for a weight hole, and the weight hole influences reaction.  In that sense, it has an indirect or secondary effect.  Two balls can require a weight hole, but by placing the hole in different locations, different effects can be achieved.

At least, that's the way it is according to Brunswick.  Lane 1 seems to think differently, and there's a substantial debate about it in the Lane 1 forum (I think).

SH
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tenpinspro

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Re: Forbidden BR Question
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2006, 11:46:33 AM »
Hey Tony,

The straight answer to your question is....

quote:
When the mass bias differential is greater than .008", use the marked or measured MB; otherwise use the CG.


From personal experience only (for myself and customers), slower ball speeds or those who are more rev to speed dominant (throws a bigger hook), positive statics still have some influence on ball reaction.  If a bowler only hooks the ball a total of 5-7 boards, he/she most likely will not see a significant difference in static weights.  

Best way I've shown people is by drilling a ball with an ounce side, have them throw it, then go back into the shop and remove it and let them see the difference.  Keep in mind, any ball that skids 40 feet whether it is created by speed, loft, tilt, rotation angle or just a nice blended shot will not truly show positive to negative imbalances in a ball.
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